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The following box contains the (grossly overlong) original title of this section:
In the section about the Polish idea of sarmatism there was a claim that the Polish word "szarmancki" (=extremely polite to women) is related to the notion of sarmatism. This is completely not true. Polish "szarmancki" comes from French "charmant" (=charming). One can check that e.g. in this dictionary [1]. Courtesy to women is part of the stereotype of sarmatism and of Polish national character (hand-kissing etc.), but the similarity of the two words ("sarmacki" = sarmatian; "szarmancki" = charming) is just a coincidence. I have removed this spurious passage. 87.244.153.187 16:47, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
87.244.154.171 01:37, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
The transition “in short, pretty much as” seems awkward and misplaced. Following the statement about the appearance of the Sarmatians, it feels to me like the editor of that section proposes that the Sarmatians should be related away from the Greeks and closer to the Budinoi, the Scythians and the Thracians. It is possible that the editors of this section may be somehow connecting the Budinoi, whom Herodotus describes as having blue eyes, with the Sarmatians. If that connection is being strengthened, it would serve better if it is given a citation, reference or direct quotation from Herodotus. Otherwise, that sentence should be removed. In addition, the two sentences following it should be removed regardless because they have nothing to do with the Sarmatians per se in that context, but are merely presenting a presumed logical conclusion. Yet, if the editors wish to establish a closer relationship with the Cythians and Thracians, it may be possible to do that in a more concrete or direct way.
If I am way off on this topic, please excuse me as I am by no means highly experienced in these subjects. I was simply studying the Amazons and it led me to this article. However, my limited reading and searching in Herodotus has not given me reason to think that he described the appearance of the Sarmatians in the way stated in that section. However, I may have misread or not read an important part or my sources could be inaccurate. If so please clarify this for me so I can correct this. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by FreQuester ( talk • contribs) 18:44, 15 April 2010 (UTC) -- FreQuester ( talk) 18:52, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
well, it is undisputed that this article is a giant mess: this is why it is tagged for cleanup. I will try to improve it over time, but I don't have the time that would be necessary to do it in a single session. You are most welcome to lend a hand. -- dab (𒁳) 10:12, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
Any data on 5000 Sarmatian cavalry posted to Britannia circa 175 AD? Euphonia ( talk) 15:56, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
First sentence of the fifth paragraph in the "name" section repeated the word "mention," both before and after a parenthetical description of who is doing the mentioning. I removed the preceding. 76.90.73.71 ( talk) 15:03, 10 October 2010 (UTC) DRS, 10OCT2010
"
"
This is not English. We never use Asia as an adjective, we always use Asian. I think that was the intent because there is a "European Sarmatia" in boldface in at least one article. However, neither one of those redirects currently exist, nor does any "Asia Sarmatia (disambiguation)." Now, if you had an Asia Sarmatia disambig why would you redirect Asia Sarmatia to here and not to the disambig? It seems to me before you put the hatnote in you need the pages referenced by the hatnote, and before you can have those, you need to decide what scheme you are going to use. I don't see Asia Sarmatia used anywhere in WP, but before we had an Asian Sarmatia disambig, would it not be better to have a Sarmatia or Sarmatian disambig? Excuse me, let me see what articles there are. Well, there is a nice disambig to cover Sarmatia and Sarmatian. So, it seems clear, what is called for is an otheruses to it. You can create redirects to here from a new Asian Sarmatia and European Sarmatia. It isn't necessary to say they redirect to here. Other pages do as well. If the user enters Asian Sarmatia and we have a redirect to here it will be noted at the top of the page as usual. Dave ( talk) 03:06, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
Not to add more ancestry claims on top of what it was added, but there are plenty of historic sources which connect Sarmatians (and Scythians) with the Daco-Getae. Some authors believe that Getae have at least a partial ancestry from the Scythians (maybe a Dacian-Scythian mix), while some of the Dacian tribes have a mix with the Sarmatians. Others believe that ancient historians mistaken the Getae from Scythia Minor and Moesia for Scythians. There are also linguistic affinities between Geto-Dacian toponyms and known words and Sarmatian and Scythian languages. The Dacians and Sarmatians were also allies in many instances, especially fighting the Romans. Whatever the truth may be, they clearly interacted a lot. I am suggesting a section or paragraph for that. -- Codrin.B ( talk) 16:51, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
It doesn't look like a B-class article at this point. More citations are needed.Codrin.B (talk) 22:22, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
Sarmatians are mentionned from the romans 3-2 sentury B.C. These are the bulgarian people which earlier came from Bactria. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.30.149.221 ( talk) 13:29, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
As I recall, the phrase "a good Samaritan" refers to someone who is kind without expecting reward. This sounds too similar to "Sarmatians" to be a coincidence. Possibly linked to Sarmatism. Can anyone confirm this? Kennard2 23:24, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
The Assyrian's conquered (Northern) Israel, its capitol was Samaria, the southern kingdom of (Israel) was called Judah its capitol was Jerusalem, hence Jews, so getting back to Northern Israel, were the ten lost tribes lived, they were taken into captivity to Assyria, and probably stayed there until the Scythians destroyed Assyria, it might be a coincidence or might not be, but at about this exact time, when the whole area North of Assyria was called Scythia, then once Assyria is destroyed all of a sudden the Sarmatian's appear, coincidence?, is it not conceivable that they started to not call themselves not by their tribal names of the sons of Joseph, or Israel but by the name of their old capitol, i.e Samaria, hence Sarmatians? well that's my two bob's worth and I think its definitely food for thought. Stephen C Grant-Davies. 09/10/2012. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.243.166.218 ( talk) 12:54, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
Is it you, Amir? OK, let me expand. Here is what you say: "who according to Herodotus were a nomadic tribe of Iranian origin, they"
Here is what Herodotus says:
"The Sauromatae speak the language of Skythia, but have never talked it correctly..."
How do you get Iranian out of that? Moreover, how did you get your changes out of the history, so that they cannot be reverted? OK, it is true that there was a large Iranian element among the Skyths. And it is true that the southern Sarmatians were probably mainly Iranian, which we can deduce from other evidence. You can't say that Herodotus said it, because he didn't. This is all a deduction based of chains of evidence. I think the concept is adequately developed in the article. You persist in using incorrect English of equivocal meaning. The Sarmatians were not one tribe. And, you have to consider all the sources, not just Herodotus.
You do have a certain point. Maybe there was an originally Iranian tribe that became the basis for a confederacy. You want to say that up front, but you can't seem to get the words right. Your English is a work in progress. How about if I try to say what I think you are trying to say? That will put the word Iranian up front and will emphasize the possible Iranian origin of the southern element. But, you know, there are other possibilities. Maybe the name is older than Iranian! So, I don't want to be narrower in definition than are the sources. Here we go. Check it out, and quit removing yourself from the history. Right now I am assuming you are not a vandal.
OK I wrote it. You're not trying to say that THE Sauromatians, the only ones there were, were an Iranian tribe are you? Because, that is clearly wrong. Maybe there was an Iranian-speaking tribe, the Sarmatians, but that is not the whole case. There were Balto-Slavic Sarmatians, Turkic Sarmatians, and what have you, and moreover, they acquired that name in prehistory. Why is it you do not discuss? Dave 15:56, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Sarmatians were not dominated by Scythians. They were conquered by Scythians in 900 BC. They were again conquered in 5 century AD by Scythians, which of course gave birth to Slavic people, who originally were famed with flaxen blond hairs and not R1A YDNA Slavic hairs. A feature, which could hardly originate from any R1A YDNA Turkmen people of Great Persia/Iran called Scythians. Isn't it so? Piotr Glownia
You are too obsessed with racializing and phenotypes. LouisAragon ( talk) 15:35, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
The article stated: The haplotype diversity [1] and frequecy of R1a1 [2] [3] [4] DNA prove that the Polish Sarmatin tradition has factual basis and is inherited from ancestors. 56% percent of Poles have the R1a1 Y chromosome gene [5],
I do not see how the sources cited support the claim. The comments in the text show that some are trying to fill the gaps. The attempts are highly dubious, Please respect the rule of No original research.-- Zz 14:51, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for answering.
As far as I see, your theory is not supported by the sources. Semino, Passarino et al' do not link R1a1 with the "Scythian/Sarmatian/kurgan culture", they do link Eu19 with the Kurgan culture and the spread of the Indoeuropan languages. That is a difference. For one, Eu19 is not R1a1, a part is not the whole. For another, even if we accept the theory that the Indoeuropan languages spread from Kurgan culture - which is not granted -, equating the Kurgan culture with the Sarmatians is not justified. There is a lot of time between them. The Kurgan culture of the Kurgan hypothesis is 3000BC, maybe even 4000BC: The Scythians/Sarmatians appear 2000 or even 3000 years later from the east.
Further, the language of the Sarmatians is North-Eastern Iranian, the closest relatives existing in Tajikistan. In other words, it is not the source of the Indo-European language, it is a branch of it. Hence, it cannot be the Kurgan culture mentioned. Further, there are Sarmatians still surviving, namely the Ossetians as descendents of the Alans. According to Pericic, Lauc et al they have 43% R1b lineages, with only little (2%?) R1a. Go figure.
So, have you got any published and scientic research at hand that directly links the Polish genetic heritage to the Sarmatians, as in The haplotype diversity and frequecy of R1a1 DNA prove that the Polish Sarmatin tradition has factual basis and is inherited from ancestors ? If not, all this is Original Research, and very likely to be wrong. -- Zz 13:35, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
1
2
3: Z: the Indoeuropan languages spread from Kurgan culture - which is not granted -, N: what is your sugestion? Whose bones we diging in roal chambers of Kurgans ? What Languages they talk? Can you read the sence of alphabet (Warning This is new and may be fatal if swawoled) ?
4 Z equating the Kurgan culture with the Sarmatians is not justified. There is a lot of time between them. The Kurgan culture of the Kurgan hypothesis is 3000BC, maybe even 4000BC: N: the genes we talking about are much older 10 k years at least
Z:The Scythians/Sarmatians appear 2000 or even 3000 years later from the east N: hmm That i didn read it, please teach me, i will gratly praise your sources about 4000 y old Sarmatian moving from east (but i dont belive you will deliver the sources).
5 Z: Further, there are Sarmatians still surviving, namely the Ossetians as descendents of the Alans. According to Pericic, Lauc et al they have 43% R1b lineages
N: Didi you Z read it here ? :::: The spatial distribution of R1b lineages shows a frequency peak (40%–80%) in western Europe and a decrease in eastern (with the exception of 43% in the Ossetians) and southern Europe (fig. 6C), whereas R1b variance shows multiple peaks in West Europe and Asia Minor (fig. 6D). While R1b variance displays a clear-cut northwestern-southeastern decline in SEE (fig. 6B), R1b frequency decline continues from western toward southeastern and southern Europe, but two intermediate local peaks are evident, in north among mainland Croatians and Serbians and in south among Kosovar Albanians, Albanians, and Greeks (fig. 6C). These spatial patterns might be due to the fact that R1b lineages contain associated RFLP 49a,f ht 15 and 35 sublineages with opposite distributions possibly reflecting repeopling of Europe from Iberia and Asia Minor during the Late Upper Paleolithic and Holocene (Cinniolu et al. 2004).
N: You Just misquote the source. If R1B is Sarmatian then Sarmatian live in Irealnd, you have to tell in to Galles so next 600 year later they will have a Sarmatian legend & tradition like Poles. I do not sing its imposible King Artur was at corner...
Let us cut it short, point by point:
I see a lot of simple logic mistakes. The last one is particularly telling: Sarmatians have a lot of R1b is different to R1b is Sarmatian. For that reason, I repeat my request: have you got any published and scientific research at hand that directly links the Polish genetic heritage to the Sarmatians, as in The haplotype diversity and frequecy of R1a1 DNA prove that the Polish Sarmatin tradition has factual basis and is inherited from ancestors ? If not, all this is Original Research, and very likely to be wrong.
By the way, I have nothing against you or against the Polish, for that matter (ale mój polski jest okropny). As you see, the theories you propose got rejected in other Wikipedia articles, too. Please understand what constitutes WP:OR and why it is rejected. -- Zz 11:07, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Eu18: M89-T, M9-G, M45-A, M173-C Eu19: M89-T, M9-G, M45-A, M173-C, M17(delG)
I have not seen in the article any refference on findings of Sarmatian maternal DNA lineages in modern day Central Asians, though it is established fact by now and there are plenty of research done. I hope noone minds adding a nicely composed material regarding this subject.-- 64.230.66.42 03:04, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
- 25% R1b YDNA; - 25% I1 YDNA; - 50% R1a YDNA;
- 75% of aliens, "guests, goscie panszczyzniani" peasantry; - 25% of natives, "hosts, hospodar, gospodarz" Polish Nobility;
ROFL polish construction worker obsessed with his Iranic heritage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LouisAragon ( talk • contribs) 15:05, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
Like blue eyes and flaxen hair is the summmum you simple soul! It doesn't make you a better man, fool. These retarded nationalists.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LouisAragon ( talk • contribs) 15:39, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
The Sarmatians remained dominant until the Gothic ascendancy in the Black Sea area. Goths attacked Sarmatian tribes on the north of the Danube in Dacia, what is today Romania. The Roman Emperor Constantine called his son Constantine II up from Galia to run a campaign north of the Danube. In very cold weather, the Romans were victorious, killing 100,000 Goths and capturing Ariaricus the son of the Goth king.[18][19][20]
In their efforts to halt the Gothic expansion and replace it with their own on the north of Lower Danube (present-day Romania), the Sarmatians armed their captives. After the Roman victory, however, the local population revolted against their Sarmatian masters, pushing them beyond the Roman border. Constantine, on whom the Sarmatians had called for help, defeated Limigantes, the leader of the revolt, and moved the Sarmatian population back in. In the Roman provinces, Sarmatian combatants were enlisted in the Roman army, whilst the rest of the population was distributed throughout Thrace, Macedonia and Italy. The Origo Constantini mentions 300,000 refugees resulting from this conflict. The emperor Constantine was subsequently attributed the title of Sarmaticus Maximus.[19][21][22][23][24] '
This funny mess should be corrected immediately. 109.81.252.94 ( talk) 03:32, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
Why Serboi are not on the list of Sarmatian tribes? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serboi — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.150.71.234 ( talk) 03:45, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
Per these sources;
Besides that such an important article about well known ancient people lacks proper editing and citing of modern scholarship point of view, think that the archeologists finding about the real existence of warrior-women known as Amazons among the Sarmatians is additionally proved (or supported) according the etymologists Oleg Trubachyov and Alemko Gluhak Croatian source, pg. 132, by whom the Sarmatians ethnonym derived from Indo-Aryan *sar-ma(n)t (feminine - rich in women, ruled by women), from Indo-Aryan and Indo-Iranian word *sar- (woman) and Indo-Iranian adjective suffix -ma(n)t, by which was noted the unusual high status of women ( Matriarchy) from the Greeks point of view and went to the invention of Amazons.-- Crovata ( talk) 20:55, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
As of currently, "Sarmatia" redirects to this article? Should a separate article for Sarmatia be created, just like we have Scythia? - LouisAragon ( talk) 11:41, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
@ Baddu676: It's a good image. But can you add more details to its description? For example, the name of battle(s)? -- Wario-Man ( talk) 05:48, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
(*salm, < *Sairmi), and
"<" makes little sense, and is not obvious at all what it is delineating. I am replacing it with an Em Dash, seeing as my removal was undone. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Akiva.avraham ( talk • contribs) 22:42, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
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What's the point of changing Iranian to Iranian-speaking in this edit? [4] Iranian (or Iranic) is a term similar to Germanic, Slavic, Turkic, and etc. We can't have double standard. If most sources use Iranian rather than Iranian-speaking, then we should just follow their pattern too. -- Wario-Man ( talk) 14:09, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
I think Sarmatian culture should be merged into the archaeology section of this article for reasons cited in WP:OVERLAP ( gnanvit ( talk) 08:04, 13 March 2019 (UTC))
Comment. I support a merge but that article itself does not sound OK. None of the cited sources are in English and I doubt they're RS or verifiable. And seriously what is this: "Bibliography => Prof. Khalil A. Kabara. Ahmadu Bello University, Zaria 2011"?! -- Wario-Man ( talk) 14:04, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
This article and Alans use "on the Pontic steppe". A Google search brings up both variants equally. Are they both correct?-- Adûnâi ( talk) 12:09, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
Since when Sarmatia is related to Russia? Neither territorial nor culturally it has no connection with people of Meshchera Woods. Sarmatia is located in Pontic steppes, a territory that belonged to Ukraine-Ruthenia and various Turkic states east of the Kievan Rus. Aleksandr Grigoryev ( talk) 17:20, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 02:22, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
On 13 July 2022 IP editor 134.101.3.12 added " Ossetians are the only remnant ethnicity that has not been absorbed by them and retain elements of Sarmatian culture." inserting it between a sentence and its supporting citation. No reference was provided for this statement. I have removed it, pending citation to a reliable source. The Ossetians article cites only a tertiary source, Microsoft's Encarta, for a similar proposition regarding language. A reliable secondary source is needed. Regardless, the previous sentence should not be separated from its source. The paper "Балты в миграциях Великого переселения народов [The Balts in the Migration Period]" does not mention Ossetians. -- Bejnar ( talk) 02:40, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
I am not seeing where this source says that the Sarmatians were "decisively assimilated" (weird wording, never heard thst before) in to the proto-Slavs.
https://www.academia.edu/37147068
There seems to be 7 references to "Sarmat" in the article, and they are mostly on page 97:
Page 97: 3 -four
_________________ ________
2017
______________
"Balts at the turn of the eras.
At the turn of the eras, the Baltic archaeological cultures spread from the southeastern Baltic to the interfluve of the Oka and Volga and the upper reaches of the Desna and the Seim. Themthe so-called "fourth" world of ancient Europe is assigned in the classificationRussian archaeologist M.B. Schukin. Among them, the main ones are it's a cultureWestern Baltic burial mounds (later - Western Baltic culture), culturehatched ceramics, Milogradskaya, Dnepro-dvinskaya (then it flows intomedium and further - Upper Tushemlinskaya culture), Yukhnovskaya. The fourth "world"differs neither in the sophistication of forms, nor in the richness of the assortment. itexceptionally varied variants of roughly hand-sculpted low profiles wrought jar-shaped pots. All of these cultures "potted" (Shchukin1994: 21). All these cultures were located in the zone of the Baltic toponymy, from whereit is concluded that their speakers spoke in the Baltic languages: speakersWestern Baltic burial mounds in the Western Baltic languages, the rest East Baltic (Shchukin 1994: 22).
Sarmatian invasion.
Earlier Sarmatian expansion and destruction by the Sarmatians of the classical Zarubintsy culture led to migrations of the Zarubintsy population to the north andsovero East, as a result of which a number of local cultures have developed.
Zarubinets
The majority of the population fled to the east the population is expanding intodifferent sides, escaping in the Podsenye, in the Bryansk region, in the Poseymye, in the upper reaches of the Sula and Psla, reaches the headwaters of the Don and, perhaps, even the Samara Volga region (Shchukin 2005: 68). It was the destruction of the Zarubinets culture by the Sarmatians (ser. I in. AD) and "explosion"the latter at a great distance from the Top. Dniester to the Desenye, upper reaches Psla and the Seversky Donets served as an impetus for the migration of the Baltic tribesYukhnovskaya and Dnepro - Dvina cultures to the north and northeast, to the upper reaches of the Dnieperand Volga, in bass. Zap. Dvina, on the upper Oka and in the west. part of Volgo -Okskyinterfluves (Shchukin 1994: 237).
M. Gimbutas notes that the bearers of Zarubinets antiquities violated quiet life of the Eastern Balts in bass. Dnieper and occupied the lands of the Milogradtribes (neuri of Herodotus), located along the Pripyat, in the upper reaches of the Dnieper and itstributaries, as well as the southernterritory (Gimbutas 2004: 111). As a result of the mixing of post-Zarubinets population groups (and, possibly,what then Sarmatians) with local ancient European and Baltic tribes,the basis of a part of the future East Slavic tribes was born, speaking languages,very similar to Central European dialects of the Proto-Slavs,migrating them to lspringzone of the European Plain in the middle."
Hunan201p: So it only says that one group might have mixed with proto-Slavic population in the Balkans. Even scarcer are references to Turks in this article, I'm seeing only two and they don't say they assimilated Sarmatians.
I don't see how this source got used for this (in the lede, no less), when there were already other sources in the article for the assimilation of Sarmatians proto Slavs, like in Slovene studies:
"For example, the ancient Scythians, Sarmatians (amongst others), and many other attested but now extinct peoples were assimilated in the course of history by Proto-Slavs."
From Chodorow, page 358:
https://books.google.com/books?id=NP64BLqDQNIC
" But the Slavic tribes survived the collapse of these empires, and gradually the remnants of the Avars, Sarmatians, and others were absorbed into the Slavic culture"
Beyond that, the were other places the Sarmatians went in to:
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Europe/jrVW9W9eiYMC?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA105&printsec=frontcover
" the Iranic Sarmatians , whose ability to assimilate into preceding Greek civilization created a brilliant new synthesis "
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Croatia/XO8_DwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PT112&printsec=frontcover
"On the shores of the Black Sea the Alans absorbed two Sarmatian peoples, the Siraci and Aorsi ... Also, the Goths undoubtedly absorbed both Sarmatian and Slavic groups during their two centuries of rule over the steppe land"
So whether or not this was a simple mistake I do not know, but the current lede citation really isn't appropriate. -
Hunan201p (
talk) 07:58, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
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