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Marin Držić wrote in good native language (today called Croatian) and in his plays he says "Republic of Dubrovnik", that was in 1500s. So this whole article is utter nonsense, and talk page is full of Italian and Serbian nationalism (Sargeras). Complete article needs to be rewritten. Official languages of the Republic were Italian and Latin, that's why Republic of Ragusa in all foreign (non-Croatian) historical sources. It's utter stupidity that Serbo-Croatian was poorly used - it was commonly used (particularly that Croatian is "recent" - Dric wrote in excelletn Croatian language, as did Mavro Vetranović and other writers),but in diplomatic and birocratic jobs Latin and Italian (and Turkish) were used. About the language itself, it was (and still is!) South-Slavic officially known as "Serbo-Croatian" between 1945 and 1990, but it's (in Drzic's plays and today in common speech of Dubrovnik area) the local "shtokavian" speech, which is now of course part of Croatian (as Dubrovnik is in Croatia since fall of the Republic, and by the way all Dalmatian reinessance writers which communicated with Dubrovnik writers considered them as part of same Dalmatian South-Slavic culture, which later became foundation of modern Croatian culture. But indeed, the name of language then wasn't Serbian nor Croatian nor Serbo-Croatian because languages were standardized only in late 1800s, so it's best to de described as local Dubrovnik koine (maybe with notion that it's still local dialect in Dubrovnik area and is part of /officially called/ Croatian language now). Tomsak 10:16, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
In English, this is almost always referred to as the "Republic of Ragusa". Would people object if I move it?
john
k 16:51, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
It seems to have already been moved from "Republic of Dubrovnik", since other pages link there and the intro never mentions "Dubrovnik Republic". Shouldn't the intro use the same terminology as the title?-- The Human Spellchecker 03:59, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)
Well, in the midst of all this, I see nobody objecting to Republic of Ragusa as the proper title for this article. It is always called Ragusa in this time period, and not Dubrovnik, and the elites were Italianized, so I'm going to move it. john k 14:14, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
User:Kubura had moved it back to Republic of Dubrovnik, but it was done via copy&paste and without any reason shown, so I reverted it. -- Joy [shallot] 19:03, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
"...'South-Slavic officially known as "Serbo-Croatian" between 1945 and 1990..".
Wrong. The AVNOJ/ZAVNOH decisions, explicitly declare those languages as two separate languages ("decisions should be given in Slovenian, Croatia, Macedonian and Serbian". That was also in a decision from the times of DFJ (before FNRJ was declared!). Reference to follow.
"...name of language then wasn't Serbian nor Croatian nor Serbo-Croatian because languages were standardized only in late 1800s...".
Wrong. The name of the language was Croatian, much before. See the links in the sections under. Here is also a link (from HAZU) to the work of Franciscan Bernardin Splićanin : "Pistvle i Evanyelya po sfe godischie harvatschim yazichom stumacena . - Novo pristampana i spomgnom priuiyena, po nacinu nouoga Missala nareyena po sfetoy materi Crichui - Prodayuse v Bnetcih pri sfetomu Xulianu v chgnigara chi darxi zlamen od Macche, 1586.
[1]. This is the second edition of his "Lekcionar". The first edition
[2] is from 1495.. ISBN of its reprint is 86-7397-129-2.
Kubura 12:10, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
The use of word "Croatian" is not only in one part of Croatia; it was also used in other parts of Croatia, although under foreign ruler, the conscience of Croathood existed.
E.g., see "Katekizam : jedna malahna knjiga v hrvatski jazik istumačena" by Stipan Konzul Istranin (Stipan Konzul from Istra peninsula).
Translation: "Katekism: a small book in Croatian language explained". The book is from 1564. Here is a link from HAZU
[3].
Kubura 12:44, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
What is with Croatian in the official languages list? The Serbo-Croatian language was poorly used in the Republic before SFRJ (which is long after the Ragusian Republic)
Before and during Napoleon's reign, they had still their own culture, and it is widely spoken with Croatian only recently (if you seperate Serbian and Croatian, I don't). If you already seperate the name, then you should put Serbian, because the Croatian language was completly recent. Sargeras 11:07, 15 July 2005 (UTC
Having said that, I also agree that the most accurate and neutral way to phrase this is simply "Slavonic language", because it's silly to try to put only Croatian and omit Serbian - it's fairly apparent that both of the languages meant by those titles today drew from this dialect. -- Joy [shallot]
In the official Ragusan documents, their native language was called ILIRIAN. In that time it was a usual name for a language that will later be called Serbo-Croatian, and now Serbian, Croatian, and Bosnian (depending on official ideology). On the top of that, every year, during a ceremony at the Sultan's court, when Ragusan diplomats were delivering a tax money (it is haed to translate HARAC), thay had a right to address sultan in their Ilirian language. My souce is Bogdan Krizman, Consuls and diplomats in Old Dubrovnik (in Croatian). In the beggining of his career, Krizman was an expert for Ragusal diplomacy. His PhD had that issue as its main subject. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.146.131.15 ( talk • contribs) , 09:39, 18 September 2006
Illyrian language (ilirički jezik) was one of synonyms of Croatian language. See, e.g., Joso Voltiggi's Ričoslovnik iliričkoga, italijanskog i nimačkoga jezika) from 1802/03 , Šime Starčević's Nova ričoslovica ilirička from 1812 (in these grammars, e.g., monthnames are equal as in Croatian, nothing in common with Serb language). Many scientist works were written about that, that proof that Illyrian language=Croatian language. Kubura 13:15, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Or if you want it this way, Croat's national renaissance movement, Croat risorgimento, was named at first as "Illyric" movement. Serb movement didn't have that name. Kubura 13:15, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
If anyone feels like doing some book research, there is a lot of good material on Ragusa in Fernand Braudel's History of the Mediterranean in the Age of Philip II. (I'm not watchlisting this page, so if anyone wants to communicate with me on this, hit my talk page.) -- Jmabel | Talk 22:40, July 16, 2005 (UTC)
. There is nothing on the role of Italian language. According to it:Repubblica di Ragusa:
From Dalmatian language:
I moved the historical info for the post-Republic of Ragusa period (i.e., post-ca. 1815) to Dubrovnik#History since it was not about the Republic but about Dubrovnik. -
AjaxSmack 07:38, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
, this however did not prevent that many of their members learned the illirico (Croatian Dalmatian), and wrote component in such language. As an example Giovanni Gondola (Ivan Gundulic) is considered one of the fathers of the Croatian literature. Obviously these patrizie wrote also in Italian and many of they left literary works in this language. Unfortunately in Croatia (but not only), the names of the patrizie families are often introduce to you with the single Croatian dizione (than however it does not have historical base, being be introduced in posterior age). It is moreover stretched to introduce such families like “pure Croatian”, ignoring their Italian roots. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.30.255.131 ( talk • contribs) , 00:54, 10 August 2006
Which Italian roots? They spoke and used Italian language, only to differ them from the serfs and other lower social classes. That is the case that existed all over Europe. Kubura 08:35, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
You're playing stupid, G.Giove. I'm speaking about that, that higher social classes spoke other language, to differ them from lower classes. In other areas, higher classes spoke German, French, Latin, Russian, English... You're speaking about Middle Ages and aristocracy, but you don't know that? Kubura 13:44, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Neither then. During WWII, it was under military occupation of fascist Italy. Dubrovnik wasn't given (as idiotic puppet ustashi did with other areas) to Italy, it was part of ISC. So, even according to Axis order, Dubrovnik was within Croatia. Kubura 08:11, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
The Italian roots of all families are very questionable. I'm not speaking about the families that came from Italy (and had origins from Italy!). Kubura 08:11, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
This article is a major catastrophy. Not only does it feature blatant rasist remarks such as "ome time later some Slav (that had surpassed the barbaric stage)", but it seems to be based solely on original research. There is one reference added towards the end of the article from an Italian minority newspaper, hardly a neutral source. The article needs to be rewritten. 83.131.1.242 10:46, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
I am leaving the disputed and weasel tags in order to facilitate exchange of opinions on the proposed changes although the POV, and poorly referenced or unreferenced statements have been removed. Every single paragraph which has been rewritten or in one case renamed now features statements based on English-speaking peer-reviewed quality sources. All the POV statements basing their claims on information contained in other editions of Wikipedia or in other Wikipedia articles (as well as those based on information contained on some obscure sites or personal pages) have also been removed. Statements which are irrelevant to this article such as sejourns of different Serbian dukes (also happened to be unreferenced) belong in their respective articles.
I have also used Ragusa/Dubrovnik in order to neutralize contentions related to the name of the Republic. Exceptions are quotes. This solution is used in several of the books quoted as sources. Besides both names are used interchangeably in most of the sources.
Language and nationality section will be expanded in due course. Noneedforthis 19:07, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Removed the first paragraph which is unreferenced, POV or at best original research. Please, do not substantiate it with wikilink comments and/or information from other editions of wikipedia. Find an English-language peer-revied high-quality source to back your claim.
For the same reason, a comment based on what appears an Italian reference that came out of nowhere has been removed in the languages section. But more importantly, the insertion of claims WITHIN paragraphs that are REFERNCED is unaccaptable and misleading. Noneedforthis 18:20, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
The greater Council met for the last time the 29 of August of 1814 and the senators were the following ones:
Orsato Savino, conte di Ragnina; Niccolo Matteo di Gradi; Niccolo Niccolo di Pozza, Clemente, conte di Menze, Marino Domenico, conte di Zlatarich, Wladislao, conte di Sorgo; M. Conte di Cerva, Niccolo conte di Saracca; Pietro Ignazio di Sorgo-Cerva; Paolo Wladislao, conte di Gozze; Nicollo Gio, conte di Sorgo, Matteo Nicollo di Ghetaldi; Savino conte di Giorgi; Pietro Giovanni conte di Sorgo; Marino Nicollo conte di Sorgo, Sebastiano di Gradi; Matteo Niccolo di Pozza; Segismondo di Ghetaldi; Niccolo Luigi conte di Pozza; Wladislao Paolo conte di Gozze, Marino di Bona; Marco Niccolo conte di Pozza; Giovanni conti di Gozze, Francesco conte di Zamagna; Matteo Niccolo conte di Sorgo; Carlo conte di Natali, Orsato conte di Cerva, Matteo Conte di Cerva, , Niccolo conte di Giorgi; Segismondo conte di Sorgo; Biagio M. Di Caboga; Conte Giovani di Menze; Niccolo Matteo di Sorgo; B.D di Ghetaldi; Gio Biagio, conte di Caboga; Marino Matteo di Pozza, conte di Sagorio, Luca Antonio conte di Sorgo; conte di Giorgi Bona; Giovanni conte di Sorgo; Giovanni conte di Natali, Antonio Luca conte di Sorgo, Rafaelle Giovanni conte di Gozze; Natale Paolo conte di Saraca; natale Conte di Ghetaldi. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.20.89.241 ( talk • contribs) , 14:27, 1 December 2006
was the first female composer in Dubrovnik/Ragusa. After the fall of the Dubrovnik/Ragusa Republic, musical performances were mostly held in private houses of the noble families. Ragusino, please added!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.20.91.19 ( talk • contribs) , 21:42, 27 December 2006
Charles VIII of France granted trading rights to the Ragusans in 1497. These rights were also granted by Louis XII in 1502. In the first decade of the 16th century, Ragusans consuls were in France with French consuls being in Ragusa. Prominent Ragusans were in France during this period and include such dignitaries as Simon Bonesa, Lovro Gigants, D. Bonda- Bondic, Ivan Cvletkovic, Captain John Florio, Petar Luccari-Lurarevic, Seraphin Gozze-Gucetic, Luka Sorgo-Sorkocevic. The Ragusan aristocracy was also well represented at the Sorbonne University in Paris at this time. Croatian Regiments were in French service in the 1600's and were called by Louis XIII's to be the Royal-Cravates. Because these soldiers wore a colorful scarf around their neck to distinguish themselves, this neck wear became known as cravats or ties. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.215.21.2 ( talk • contribs) , 00:51, 8 January 2007
Croatian nationalism is getting the better of the article. Today Ragusa is a Croatian city known as Dubrovnik, however, this article pertains to the historical republic of Ragusa. Ragusa was an Italian Republic, not a croatian one. Today the city is Dubrovnic, a croatian city. lets not confuse the two. The ancient republic of ragusa was never known as the republic of Dubrovnic, and the language of the native citizens was an Italian dialect related to venetian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.107.173.80 ( talk • contribs) , 04:08, 8 January 2007
Ragusa=ancient Italian republic on dalmatian coast. Dubrovnik=ragusa annexxed to yugoslav/croatian state. Republic of Dubrovnic=modern croation revisionism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.107.173.80 ( talk • contribs) , 04:19, 8 January 2007
Here are some citations of the persons from Dubrovnik or neighbourhood in Middle Ages.
Here are the links:
[6] and
[7]
Translation and more to follow.
Kubura 22:24, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Ruling class remained Latin? Italian? Whome are you fooling? Are you one of those who propagate "Italians that have surname -ich"? And where have you left romanized Illyrians?
Second, I see your game with avoiding the adjective "Croat". Dubrovnik Republic had Croat population, not "some amorphous Slavs", learn that.
What do you mean by "harmony"? Don't make resistence to claims that "Dubrovnik Republic was Italian"?
Gbajramo, it's easy to share somebody else's meal. Do it with your own country.
Kubura 12:51, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Gbajramo, your assertions are very POV. "...non-Latin and Slavic population did not consist exclusively of Croats even if Croats were possibly in majority". Shame on you, Gbajramo. I don't know what to say anymore.
About "Slavic population", "not exclusively Croats": possibly there were some Czech or Polish traders. Of course, there was a Russian embassy in Dubrovnik.
About majority, you should read history books.
Kubura 09:01, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
"...when sources are lacking..."? "...not documented..."?
"...contribution to population..."? No country had 100% ethnic purity, except small isolated tribal states. Few Albanian traders don't change the picture.
About other neighbouring Slavic states, what states did you had in mind?
About POV, I don't know for you, but I've "covered" my contributions and my assertions with references.
User Giovanni Giove denied here the Croat nameforms of persons from Dubrovnik (see the section "Vandalism of Kubura" - he even dared to call my contributions as vandalism), under the excuse of "historical reasons". As you see in my recent contributions, he's wrong.
Also the city name in Croat language, Dubrovnik, was brought in question. Argument was "...it is always called Ragusa..." and similar. Somehow, on those links with scanned pages of those 15th and 16th century books, that I've posted here, it says "Dubrovnik".
Kubura 15:54, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Giovanni, this
[8] is wrong. You haven't read the links I've posted?
OK, I'll be faster with my translations. I've promised something in the text above.
Kubura 15:54, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Do you see your comments: "in Ragusa the slavic dialect was Illyric, later reconignzed as a Serbo-Croatian dialect"?
What are you doing? Spreading new pseudo-science here? Inventing new Slavistic?
You've substituted "Croatian" with "Chakavian" or, even worse, with "Serbo-Croatian"? Again, what are you doing?
Have you read any sources that I've posted here? Or you ignore and push your story further? Doing everything in every possible way, just to avoid the word Croat.
Croat language and Illyrian language were sinonyms.
Čakavian is the dialect of Croatian language.
Are you trying to turn the Slavistics upside down? Giove, you're thinking things up. Stop it. Izmišljaš stvari.
"Italianess". If it was so Italian, why was the book (I've posted the link already) translated "from Italian language into the language of Dubrovnik (not Ragusa)? And that note was written in Croatian.
Kubura 12:51, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Dubrovnikan Franciscan Joakim Stulić in his work "Lexicon latino-italico-illyricum", printed in 1801 in Buda, gives this explanation of the term "illyrice": "Slovinski, harvatski, hrovatski, horvatski". Nowhere any "Serbo-", just Croatian.
The "Lexicon latinum" of the Jesuit Andrija Jambrešić printed in 1742 has the annex: ''Index Illyrico sive croatico — latinus".
The Archbishop of Split Stipan Cosmi declares new orders
[9] for its parishes in 1688 in Latin and in Croatian, in the was that he has translated the term "illyricus" with the term "hrvatski" (idiomo Illyrico - harvaskoga izgovora; clero Illyrico - klera harvaskoga). See the first page
[10]. The link is from HAZU.
The Franciscan Lovro Sitović Ljubušak in his work"Pisma od pakla : navlastito od paklenoga oggna, tamnosti, i viçnosti, koju iz svetoga Pisma staroga i novaga zakona, takoger iz sveti otacza i nauçiteglia / izvede i harvatski jezik pivagne otacz F. Lovro Gliubusckoga reda S.O. Francesck, darxave Bosne Argentine ... u pet poglavj razdigliena."
[11] (printed in Venice in 1727) has said that is wrote it in Harvatski jezik, and in the introduction in Latin he calls that language illiricum idioma The first page
[12]; the link is from HAZU.
Kubura 06:49, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Now, to some links. Here
[13] is a link to a library of Croatian Academy of Sciences and Arts. This link shows a picture of first pages of a book named "Zarcalo dvhovno od pocetka i sfarhe xivota coviecanskoga : razdieglieno, i razreyeno u petnaes razgovora, a u stoo, i pedeset dubbia, alliti sumgna poglavitieh. Vcignenieh meyu mesctrom, i gnegoviem vcenijkom. / Istomaceno iz yezikka italianskoga u dubrovacki po D. Mauru Orbinu Dubrovcaninu Opattu od S. Marie od Backe, od Reda Sfetoga Benedikta. ". Printed in Venice, in 1621. These
[14] and
[15] are pages from the edition from 1703. Here are the catalogue search results
[16],
[17].
The important part is where it states "istomaceno iz jezika italijanskoga u dubrovacki" (translated from the Italian language into Dubrovnik's language), translated by the Dubrovnikan (not "Ragusan") D.Mauro Orbin.
Dubrovnik's language, a Slavic one. If Dubrovnik (not "Ragusa") was Italian-speaking, why it states in an old book that it was translated from Italian into Dubrovnik's language?
Kubura 09:01, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
A link from
HAZU. The book of
Ivan (Dživo) Bučić-Vučić
[18]. 1st two pages. Title says: "Mandaliena pokorniza gospodina Giua Uvcichia Bunichia vlastelina dvbrouachoga.". Printed in Venice 1705. Catalogue search result
[19].
"...of mr Dživo Vučić Bunić, nobel of Dubrovnik."
Kubura 09:34, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
A link from
HAZU. The book of a Dubrovnik's nobel Nikola Bunić
[20]. 1st two pages. Catalogue search result
[21].
Title says:"Grad Dvbrovnich vlastelom v trexgniv. / Piesan gospodina Nicca Giva Bvnichia vlastelina dubrouachoga. " Printed in Ancona 1667.
Kubura 09:34, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
A link from
HAZU. Regarding Gučetić family...
The book
[22](1st page) titled "Rosario s'druxbom prislavnog imena Iesusa Spassiteglia nascega. Suprotiva kriviem kletvami proklinaniu i psovkami protiva imenu Boxiemu. / Sloxeno po nedostoinomu slusi boxiemu, poctovanomu pripoviedaozu Ozzu Fra Arkangelu Guceticchiu Dubrovcianinu od Reda Fratara Predikatura". Catalogue search result
[23].
Written by franciscan Arkangel Gučetić Dubrovčanin (not "Ragusino"). Printed in 1597 in Rome.
Kubura 10:09, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Here's a book in Italian.
Link with a review (though, in Croat, by academic Tonko Maroević) is
here. Link is from online edition of magazine "Vijenac" of Matica hrvatska. Book is:
Ljiljana Avirović, La traduzione poetica in Croazia: a) Il caso dell'Aminta di Torquato Tasso i b) Petrarca e il petrarchismo — aspetti della traduzione del sonetto, Cleup, Padova, 1999
A cite from the review:
"Gotovo svi protagonisti hrvatskoga pjesništva 16. stoljeća istaknuli su se i svojim verzijama inozemnih klasika: Marulić prevodi Dantea i Petrarku, Katona i Kempenca, sv. Bernarda i sv. Bonaventuru, Hektorović i Lucić daju vlastita tumačenja Ovidijevih pjesama, Menčetić i Ranjina više nego variraju na Petrarkine motive, dok Dominko Zlatarić objavljuje čitave dramske tekstove Tassa i Sofokla, želeći Elektru posljednjega navedenog — prema vlastitim riječima — »učiniti Hrvaćkom«."
The translation is:
"Almost all protagonist of Croat poetry of 16th c. have proven themselves with their versions of foreign classics: Marulić translates Dante and Petrarca, Katon and Kempenc, st. Bernard and st. Bonaventura, Hektorović and Lucić are giving their own comments of Ovidius poems, Menčetić i Ranjina more then make variations on Petrarca's motives, while Dominko Zlatarić publishes whole drama texts of Tasso and Sofocles, wanting to make the Elektra of Sofocles, as he said himself, "a Croat woman" (»učiniti Hrvaćkom«)."
Kubura 10:10, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
About some of my sources:
"Vijenac" are Matica hrvatska's newspapers for literature, art and science (Novine Matice hrvatske za književnost, umjetnost i znanost.).
"Matica hrvatska" is, as it declares in the article 2 of its
statute "independent, non-profit, non-governmental society, founded 1842 as society for promotion of Croat culture, and that has, over the years, with his work and continuity, became a national institution". Name in Latin is Matrix Croatica.
Kubura 10:19, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
A link from HAZU. Regarding Gundulić family.
The book of
Ivan Gundulić. The title says "Suse sina rasmetnoga gospodina Giva Frana Gundulichia vlastelina dubrovackoga. - V Bnecieh : po Francisccv Broiollv". Edition is supposed to be from 1650 (title page says M.DC.---). Title page
[24]. Printed in Venice. Catalogue search result
[25].
Fourth edition from 1703. Title says "Suse sina rasmetnoga gospodina Giva Frana Gundulichia vlastelina dubrouackoga.". Printed in Venice. Title page
[26]. Catalogue search result
[27].
Kubura 13:27, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
A link from HAZU. Regarding Držić family.
The book of
Marin Držić. Catalogue search result
[28].
Title is "Tirena / comedia Marina Darxichia". Third edition from 1630. Printed in Venice.
Kubura 13:27, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
A link from HAZU. Regarding Ranjina family.
The book of
Dinko Ranjina. Title says "Piesni raslike Dinka Ragnine, vlastelina dubrovackoga : u koih on kaxe sve sctose sgodimu stvoriti kros gliubav, stoiech u gradu latinskom, od Zangle". Catalogue search result
[29]. Printed in Florence in 1563.
Kubura 13:27, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
A link from HAZU. Regarding Gradić family.
The book of Bazilije Gradić. Title says ˇˇLibarze od dievstva i dievickoga bitya v komse tomace sua kolika poglauita miesta staroga i nouoga sakona, koia od dieustua gouore i ono scto sueti naucitegli u mnosieh librieh pisciu ; Libarze velle duhovno i bogogliubno od molitve i contemplanya, sniekiem napomenam duhouniem, oniem ki xele duhouno xiuieti, uelle potrebno i korisno / [dum Basilio Gradich].". Printed in Venice in 1567.
Catalogue search result
[30]. Title page
[31].
Kubura 13:27, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
A link to the library of Faculty of Philosophy in Zagreb. Search result
[32].
Book of the author Jakov Mikalja.
Title is Blago jezika slovinskoga illi Slovnik : u komu izgorarajuse rjeci slovinske latinski i diacki = Thesaurus linguae Illyricae sive Dictionarium Illyricum : in quo verba Illyrica Italice et Latine redduntur / labore p. Jacobi Micalia ; Grammatika talianska u kratko ili Kratak nauk za naucitti latinski jezik / koga slovinski upisa otac Jacov Mikaglja ... Impresum: Laureti : apud Paulum et Io. Baptistam Seraphinum , 1649 .
Kubura 12:41, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Work of
Bernardin Pavlović, franciscan from Dubrovnik Republic.
A link from HAZU. Search result
[33]. Title page
[34].
Priprauglegnie za dostoino rechi suetu missu i posli iste Boggu zahuaglegne / i zuagieno iz missala rimskoga i skupgleno, iz tomaçeno iz mnoghi ostaly devoti kniga i u' haruaski jezik pomgliuo i virno privedeno po Ozcu Fra Bernardinu Paulovichiu iz Dubrounika Reda Svetoga O. Franceska ... - U Mleczi : Po Stipanu Monti, 1747. . Printed in Venice in 1747.
Kubura 22:05, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Work of
Rajmund Džamanjić, Dominican from Dubrovnik republic.
A link from HAZU library. Search result
[35]. Title page
[36].
Nauk za piisati dobro latinskiema slovima rieci yezika slovinskoga koyiemse Dubrovcani, i sva Dalmatia kakko vlasctitiem svoyiem yezikom sluzcij. / Po M. P. Ozu F. Raymundu Giamagniku Dubrovcaninu od Reda S. Dominica. - In Venetia : Appresso Marco Ginammi, 1639.
The work from 1639 speaks about Dubrovcani, not Ragusini. It says that "How to write good in Latin letters the words from Croatian ("slovinski" is one of synonyms of Croatian, see the section above, e.g., note that "linguae Illyricae sive Croatice" by Cosmi, and "linguae Illyricae.../...slovinski" by Mikalja)," in which Dubrovnik, and whole Dalmatia, use as their own proper language". With double confirmation. "Vlastitim"=own. "svojim"="own proper" ("svoj" is a reflexive possesive pronoun).
Kubura 07:47, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Why is there an English version of the name and no Croatian version? Is there any specific reason for this? It certainly has more validity than the English variation.
Also the current coat of arms was not the arms of Dubrovnik Republic. That was Austro-Hungarian arms assigned to Dubrovnik after it was annexed by Austro-Hungary and incorporated into Habsburg Monarchy. The real coat of arms was the one that is today official arms of the city -> —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.172.197.42 ( talk • contribs) , 00:09, 11 February 2007
This article belongs in the Category:Repubbliche Marinare of Italy, because Ragusa was one of the Italian-ruled maritime city-states of the middle ages. Αργυριου (talk) 01:57, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
"Repubbliche Marinare of Italy"? Hey???? What are you saying?
First of all, Republic of Dubrovnik never was part of Italy.
Second, don't add romanized Illyiric population to Italian population.
Third, Ragusean Dalmatian language is not the same as Italian language, neither belongs to the same subgroup of Romanic languages.
Fourth, if you think that ruling of a certain ethnic group over some city, territorial unit or a country makes that area the ownership over that country, you're wrong. Does that mean that Chicago is Italian city, because Al Capone factically ruled over that city, or that New York was Italian city, because of "Lucky" Luciano? Or maybe you think that Peru is Japonese state, because Fujimori is the president of that country?
Fifth, is England French country, because their kings knew only to speak French (even Richard the Lionheart?)? Or maybe you find Croatia the succesor of Roman Empire, because Croatia was the last remaining country in the world (besides Papal States) that had Latin as official language of their parliament?
Sixth, should we act Croatia to Laotan-speaking countries, because there are few Laotans in Croatia?
Adding of such claims to Wikipedia, that "Dubrovnik Republic" was "Repubblicha Marinara of Italy" is blatant expansionism and imperialism! Such behaviour should not be tolerated. These thing aren't funstuff. These things are very serious.
Argiriou, why don't you add Greece from 19th (and early 20th) century to the list of Turkish countries? Inhabitants of freshly independent Greece knew Turkish. Or even better, why don't you add it to the list of Macedonian-speaking countries, because Macedonian Slavs had territorial distribution in the largest part of Greece, from Macedonian border to Larisa, and spoke their language actively?
Kubura 12:38, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Both of you really don't understand history at all, and are filtering the facts through the highly distorting lens of your tin-pot nationalism. Arguing with you isn't worth the trouble. Αργυριου (talk) 21:09, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Croatia, Italy, Germany, are a modern concept!, the nationaly state were born in the late of the XIX century, Republic of Ragusa, was in the orbit of the Republic of Venice, the people spoke a italian language dialect, for example, Milan never was a part of Florence, and the two Sicilies, Genova, etc, in the german lands, the prussian people never was a part of the bavarian south german, they spoke the german very diferent, the dialect wasn´t the same!, the dialect of the city of Hamburg is very similar of Sweden language!! for more, the italian tyrol, most of 50% of them spoke german! and similar dialect of the german tyrol, inclusive the German-bavaria territory, don´t forget than Tito expulsed of the ex Yogoeslavia and confiscated the property all the italian people in Istria, Zara, Ragusa!, in europe the mix of culture is incredible, if we forget the italian orbit than culturized that now we know of Croatia is a big mistake! the slav heritage don´t forget too! the ilirian movement leading for Gundulic)Gondola), Palmotta, Darsa, Pozza, etc dreaming for a Slavs Estate Unite!! many slavs died with this dreams! Ragusino, 21:09, 19 February 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.113.47.228 ( talk • contribs) , 19:07, 17 February 2007
This
[38]?
Giove, please, what says in those 16th century books? Have you seen the text on the scanned pages?
Giovanni, again
this?
The site you've posted
here as a source,
http://www.arcipelagoadriatico.it, is a ...hmm...doubtful site.
BTW, in which language was written the anthem of the old Republic. "O lijepa, o draga, o slatka slobodo?". Is that Italian? (those lyrics Bono Vox recites in the song "Miss Sarajevo", if I remember well).
About
this. And čakavian dialect of Croatian and štokavians dialect of Croatian were both referred also as "Illyrian". In old Dubrovnik, you'll find various names for domestic Croatian language (hrvatski, ilirički, ilirski, slovinski, dubrovački/Croat, Illyrian, Illyric, Slovinic, Dubrovnican) but nowhere can be found under the name of Serb language, neither Serbo-Croatian language). If you want to deny that those were all names for Croatian language, OK. I'll post you the links or references, where it shows that those were treated as synonyms.
This? Yes, I've forgot to translate.
Name in Italian language as "native name"? I disagree. If you want to present the language of higher social classes as "native" (despite majority's language), than, as a start, try to do something like that in the article about medieval England. See
Richard I of England.
Kubura 16:25, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
About the proofs that "Illyrian" language from the sources refers to Croatian language, see the section above Talk:Republic_of_Ragusa#Illyrian_language. Kubura 07:23, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Interesting for the "neutrality".
Authors from all over the world, but no Croat author. Interesting.
Kubura 13:04, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Some users here persistently try to avoid Croat name in this article.
Not "Croatian", but some "amorphous Slavs", or "Croats and Serbs" or even "Serbs"(?!) only.
Obviously, someone wants to lessen the Croathood of Dubrovnik as much as possible. The policy of Italian imperialists.
Despite a bunch of history facts.
I don't know what admins are doing.
I don't know what to do anymore.
I don't want to go into editwars.
Kubura 10:55, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
I commented out the section listing people who were born after 1808; Ragusino removed the comment-marks. This list of people does not belong in this article; it belongs in the article on Dubrovnik. The history of the Republic of Ragusa has a definitive end, in 1808. Anything which happened afterwards is part of some other history; in this case, the history of Dubrovnik. Αργυριου (talk) 18:57, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
We should remove the section "Born in 1800's (After the fall of the Republic) " in the article.
It is out of context; this article deals with times of Dubrovnik Republic.
Kubura 19:23, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
I think some trivia should be perhaps added. Not many people actually know this but Republic of Ragusa was the first one in the world who started the practice of quarantine and was also the first country to officially recognize the United States of America when they issued their declaration of independence from Great Britain. Also it had some colonies in India (Goa I think), which later passed to Portuguese. Tar-Elenion 19:47, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Juraj Šižgorić unimportant? Georgius Sisgoreus from 15. century? Kubura 19:40, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Recently I've read about his importance for the thesaurus of Croatian language (because he's one source for the Croatian terms for the ball (like the one for - football!). Kubura 06:44, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
About dialects. Dubrovnikans wrote in štokavian; still, there're are historical documents from those times that point to stronger influence/presence of čakavian dialect. Kubura 08:06, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Article in magazine "Vijenac" of Matica hrvatska: Dubrovnik i hrvatska tradicija, nr. 148, 1999. Author is Josip Lisac, Croatian linguist. Lisac deals with Croats' dialects (since 2004, assisting with Croatian Academy of Sciences and Arts). Kubura 09:46, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Article in magazine "Vijenac" of Matica hrvatska: Dubrovnik i hrvatska tradicija (2), nr. 149, 1999. Second part of Lisac's text. Kubura 09:48, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Article "Jezik i književnost u Dubrovniku u 16. i 17. stoljeću (kontinuitet i promjene)" of Davor Dukić (author is from Croatistics department of Faculty of Philosophy in Zagreb). Translation of the title is "Language and literature in Dubrovnik in 16th and 17th century (continuity and changes). Kubura 09:56, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Here's a link. Žarko Muljačić, "Iz dubrovačke prošlosti". Newspaper article and the book . Kubura 11:53, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
The Ragusan nobility were disunited in their ideas and political behavior. Article 44 of the 1811 Decree abolished the centuries-old institution of fideicommissum in inheritance law, by which the French enabled younger noblemen to participate in that part of the family inheritance, which the formerlaw had deprived them of. The annulment of fideicommissum struck at the Antonnio Degl’Ivellio. According to a 1813 inventory of the Dubrovnik district, 451 land proprietors were registered, including ecclesiastical institutions and the commune. Although there is no evidence of the size of the estates, the nobles, undoubtedly, were in posses- sion of most of the land. Eleven members of the Sorgo family, 8 of Gozze, 6 of Ghetaldi, 6 of Pozza, 4 of Zamagna, and 3 members of the Saraca family were among the greatest landowners. Ragusan citizens belonging to the confraternities St. Anthony and St. Lazarus owned considerable land outside the City. Ragusa/Dubrovnik under French Ruleties dreaded any conflict between the rebels and the Austrians, who were expected to arrive at any moment. Thus, due to their incapacity to act together,the Ragusans missed the last chance of liberating the City themselves. Regardless of the events taking place in the City, Todor Milutinovic and Montrichard settled the French surrender of the City under honorable terms.Their aim being to avoid greater conflicts, the Austrians agreed to the French conditions. General Milutinovic promised that the victorious army would not marchinto the City before the last Frenchman was evacuated from the City by ship.On 27 January, the French capitulation was signed in Gruz (Gravosa) and ratified thesame day.It was then that Caboga openly sided with the Austrians, dis-missing the rebel army in Konavle. Meanwhile, Natali and his men were still waiting outside the Ploce Gates.After almost eight years of occupation, the French troops marched out of Ragusa/Dubrovnik on 27 and 28 January 1814. On the afternoon of 28 January 1814,the Austrian and English troops made their way into the City through the PileGates, denying admission to the Dubrovnik rebels. Intoxicated by success,and with Caboga’s support, MilutinoviÊ ignored the Gruz (Gravosa) agreement he hadmade with the nobility in Gruz. The events which followed can be best epito-mized in the so-called flag episode. The Flag of St. Blaise was posted along-side of the Austrian and British colors, but only for two days, because on 30 January, General Milutinovic ordered Mayor Giorgi to lower it. Overwhelmed by afeeling of deep patriotic pride, Giorgi, the last rector of the Republic and aloyal Francophile, refused to do so—“jer da ga je pripeo puk” (”for the masseshad posted it”). The oncoming events proved that Austria took every possible chance of invading the entire coast of the eastern Adriatic, from Venice to Cattaro. The allies did everything in their power to eliminate the Dubrovnik issue at the Vienna Congress of 1815. The Ragusan representative, Miho Bona, was denied participation in the Congress, while MilutinoviÊ, prior tothe final agreement of the allies, assumed complete control of the City. Inhis book Pad Dubrovnika (The Fall of Ragusa/Dubrovnik; 1908), Lujo Vojnovic makes every effort to justify the popular actions and prove the solidarity of all social groups in achieving their common goal to restore the Republic. The records, however, seem to indicate a different situation. There was in fact lit-tle understanding between the nobility, the bourgeoisie, and the peasantry, and slim chances of these groups of having any common basis for further activities. The three groups had different reasons to be dissatisfied with the French government, and the moment when they rejoiced together over their victory was not strong enough to unite all the segments of Dubrovnik society in a struggle to restore the Republic. After Dubrovnik suffered a political breakdown, was brought to the verge of economic ruin, and was foresakenby the international community, the City and its territories were handed over to the Habsburg Monarchy in 1815 by the Congress of Vienna.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.20.88.142 ( talk • contribs) , 00:43, 6 March 2007
Is peculiar that even survived when the classes were divided by internal disputes. When Marmont arrived at Dubrovnik in 1808, it was whereupon the nobility was divided in two blocks, the “ Salamanquinos” and the “ Sorboneses”. These names alluded to to certain controversy arisen from the wars between Charles V of Spain and Franz I of France, happened hardly two hundred fifty years back. It was that in the 1667 earthquake a great part of the noble class was annihilated, being necessary to give back his force to him with the inclusion of certain plebians. To these the salamanquinos, those in favor of Spanish absolutism, did not treat them like equal; but the inclined sorboneses, added to the frenchs, and to a certain liberalism, accepted them without reserves. Another factor that could take part in this conduct is that the sorboneses had been very decreased by the earthquake and they did not want to lose cash. In any case, both sides had he himself status and they seated together in the Council, but they did not maintain relations social and not even they were greeted by the street; an inconvenient marriage between members of both groups was of so serious consequences as if it occurred between members of different classes. This social split was also reflected in the inferior layers: “The plebians, as well, were divided in the brotherhoods of San Antony and San Lazaro, who was so unfriendly in their relations as salamnaquinos and sorboneses”. He was in the essence of the Republic, that always had to be defended of neighboring empires --“first Hungary, soon Venice, later Turkey”-- and that was structured for a reduced number of people, around the 33 original noble families of century XV.
In 1783 the Ragusan Government did not answer the proposition put forward by their diplomatic representative in Paris, Frano Favi, that they establish diplomatic relations with the USA, although the Americans agreed to allow Dubrovnik ships free passage in their ports.
I've proposed merging both [[:Category:Maritime republics]] and [[:Category:Repubbliche Marinare of Italy]] into Category:Maritime Republics. Discussion is at this entry in CfD. Αργυριου (talk) 19:28, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Vegliot was the dialect of romanic Dalmatian language from the island of
Krk.
Ragusean was the dialect of romanic Dalmatian language from the city of
Dubrovnik.
There were also some others dialects, these were most known. There was big unintelligibility among those dialects.
From Krk to Dubrovnik there's approximately 350 kilometres of distance.
Kubura 12:14, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Giovanni Giove, please don't drop completely irrelevant changes when you revert on POV grounds. -- Joy [shallot] 17:25, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
PANONIAN, you know what they say - even a broken clock is right twice a day. This state was was a Italian - South Slav state and that duality continued all the way to relatively recent times. I am highly suspicion of the name "Dubrovačka republika" as official, but I'll look it up.-- Hadžija 00:10, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
The version I saw had only Slavic (don't quote me, I only gave it a glance). I agree with your proposal, I don't see how anyone could object to that.-- Hadžija 06:06, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
No problem, happens to me sometimes.-- Hadžija 18:26, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes, Vlaho Bukovac croatized his birthname and ...birthsurname. Croat national renaissance movement caught him also. Who painted the picture "Croatian national renaissance"? Kubura 09:04, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
So source it, it's not a problem.-- Hadžija 09:27, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Here's his work on Commons (the curtain in Croatian National Theatre) in Zagreb
[39].
Here's a link to the site of Croatian Heritage Foundation (Hrvatska matica iseljenika), to the Monthly revue of that organization,
[40].
Of course he croatized his name and surname, he didn't chinesified it, nor laotized it.
Kubura 11:43, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
How can you dispute "croatized" at all? "Vlaho" is Croat name, name that exists only among the Croats. Kubura 07:57, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Here's the link from HAZU.
It confirms the name of the country in Croatian, as well as that the name of language is Croatian.
"Pokripglenie umiruchi, za dobro i sveto pochi umilosti Boxioi sovoga svita / iztomaçeno, i skupgleno pria po Don Luczi Terzichiu. Koie da boglie, i upraunie izgovara u haruaski iezik; popravi i pristampa po ozcu P. Fra Bernardinu Paulovichiu iz Dubrovaçke Darssave ... Dedicato a sua eccellenza Simon Contarini .... - U Mleczi : Po Bartalu Occhj, 1747."
[41] and the scan of the first page
[42].
The translation is "...in order to better be spoken in Croatian, fixed and reprinted by father fra Bernardin Pavlović from the country of Dubrovnik...".
Few interesting lines from that page are "Jod istoga nadostagliuni mnogi i rasliçiti Blagosovi, i Druge Stuari Svete, i Kriposne za korit Naroda Harvasckoga Kakose moxe viditi nassuarsi isti knigat".
Here's the second edition.
[43] and the scan of an internal page
[44].
Kubura 12:34, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
About the "ethnicity" paragraph.
Why isn't such a paragraph in articles about other historical states?
Someone inserted it here with the purpose of removing any possible connection with Croathood of Republic of Dubrovnik.
Now, when it's obvious that the links to historical documents proove the Croathood, then appears the paragraph with following lines:
"These discussions are mainly meaningless". Such line in an article? is this encyclopedic??.
"The attribution of a definite ethnicity is impossible". Really? Few African slaves also lived in Paris, but that didn't made attribution of Paris to Frenchood impossible.
"after the Middle Age the Republic had always a mixed population, Latin and Slavic". And in tribe of Yanomami in Amazonia lived one English explorer. So the village of Yanomami had mixed population, English and Yanomami.
Kubura 06:08, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
John, what do you know about Dubrovnik and its history at all? You came here out of nowhere, had no contributions so far, and now you preach us.
Second, do you "play dumb" or what? Do you know the meaning of above written sentences?
Sentence "...a mixed population..." gives the idea that the Dubrovacska darxava had amount of Romanic speaking population almost equal as Croat one, which is wrong. Croats made absolute majority.
Third, again I see the avoiding/a try to nullify (in that paragraph) any reference that the old Republic had Croat population (some amorphous "Slavs"). Despite explicit speaking (in the historical sources) about Croats and Croatian language in the old Republic as well about its population.
Do you read the sources I've put in the text above?
Kubura 12:30, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Please refrain from using article talkpages to discuss specific complaints about other editors. I've reverted the addition. WP:ANI or a user WP:RFC is the appropriate place for this.-- Isotope23 19:07, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Toponyms, language, ethnicity, surnames, evading the mentioning of Croats and Croatian language. Kubura 19:58, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
I think, Ragusa was an Italian-speaking area, some of its most important families came frm Italy etc. So it reasonable to add it to Italian Projects. It doesn't mean that Ragusa was part of Italy!!!! -- Attilios 08:33, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Then there should be an other template.
Not the one related to Italy, but to Italian language.
Kubura 09:41, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Here is a proof that the name Dubrovnik Republic is used in modern English.
Here's
Case NO. IT-02-54-T from ICTY, second amended indictment against Slobodan Milošević.
Though they made a blooper in the text (old republic ceased to exist almost two centuries ago, area is part of Croatia) - they should use the term "Dubrovnik and surrounding area".
In fact, the territory of old Dubrovnik Republic was one of the primary targets of the Montenegrin military conquest campaign and in one of annexation plans/Croatian dismembering: it was planned by greaterserbianist and anticroat circles to "restore" the old republic in Greater Serbia (though, under the name and form "new" Yugoslavia).
Still, it shows which term modern English uses for that republic.
Or you find Carla del Ponte as Croatian POV-user?
Kubura 09:49, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
You are a hopeless case, it seems. Berlin (like Leipzig, Dresden or Rostock) is indeed a name of Slavic origin and it has not been changed, only pronounced a German way. I have no problems with the English, Italians ("Monaco di Baviera"), Poles etc. using their names for German cities and regions. The Austrians still use "Agram", don't they? But seriously, the historic name of Dubrovnik until the First World War was Ragusa. Where is your problem? The English wikipedia uses English names for historic states, that's it. -- DaQuirin 13:23, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
DaQuirin, you're missing the point.
First, I don't make any objections when Italians on pages in their language use Italian nameforms, neither to Germans, when they on pages in their language use German nameforms.
That means, it.wiki and de.wiki, not on en.wiki.
Second, you don't know Croatian history at all, neither the history of Austria-Hungary, so please, don't mess, if you're not informed or you have superficial knowledge in this matter.
Croatian language became official language in Austrian administrative unit "Kingdom of Dalmatia" on 21 July of 1883 (because of influence of Croat unionist party, that won the elections for the third time in a row, thanks to new voting system, that gave voteright also to lower classes, that were majority of population, Croats).
Why don't you provoke Greeks with using "Selanik" instead of "Salonica", because it was its historical name (it was part of Turkey then, till Balkan Wars)? In English name is Salonika? So is Dubrovnik the name of this Croatian city in English, DaQuirin.
Kubura 09:49, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
A very recent archeological investigation in Župa Dubrovačka (a few kilometers to the south of the city) found a grave with an inscription written in Glagolitic alphabet from 10th century. It is the oldest glagolitic text ever found southern of Neretva river. It's not published yet but it will be soon. The archeologists in Dubrovnik were more than asleep in the second half of 20th cenrury, now a new wave of archeologists came and here are the results. It's supposed to be just first of such discoveries and according to the historical facts there should be an "ocean" of the same kind. Both names Ragusa and Dubrovnik doesn't have anything to do with Italians or Italian language. Original Ragusians were Romanized Illyrians, later they were mixed with Croats. Ragusa comes from Ragusian language, not Italian. Both names were in usage during the Medieval, so what is the problem to call it the Dubrovnik Republic. Italian appropriation of the name is ridiculous. The same goes for their appropriating of other toponims. Zenanarh 14:55, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
THIS ARGUMENT IS UNNECESSARY AS THE NAME "RAGUSA" IS USED IN THE DALMATIAN LANGUAGE AS WELL AS ITALIAN AND LATIN. IT IS, THEREFORE, NOT ITALIAN AND IS NOT INCORRECT. IT IS USED EVEN TODAY IN DUBROVNIK TO REFER TO THE CITY ("RAGUZA"). THERE IS NO NEED TO CAHNGE THE NAME, ESPECIALLY WHEN USED IN A HISTORIC CONTEXT. DIREKTOR 20:35, 17 July 2007
Here's another material, from United Nations Security Council
[45].
Final report of the UN Comission of experts established pursuant to Security Council Resolution 780 (1992), the Annex XI.A: "The Battle of Dubrovnik and the law of armed conflict".
"The settlement of Dubrovnik was first mentioned in written records by an anonymous cosmographer of Ravenna in 667. Known in Latin as Ragusium, it was long known by its Italian name, Ragusa, before its Croatian name Dubrovnik (from Dubravka, "forest of oaks") acquired general acceptance."
Further in the text it's being used solely "Dubrovnik" or "republic of Dubrovnik".
To make it easy for you, start with the page 8 (chapter II. Cultural-historical perspective of Dubrovnik, A. Background).
This should be enough.
Kubura 09:22, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Once again, you say a lot, but say nothing. Simple logic: Dalmatian was official in historic Dubrovnik, it's name should be written in Dalmatian. Our Dalmatian urban tradition demands it. DIREKTOR 11:58, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
DIREKTOR, as administrative language, I haven't seen any official documents in Dalmatoromanic language in Republic of Dubrovnik.
Have you read any books? Yes, there're books in Croatian.
Second, DIREKTOR, you're missing the point. I'm speaking about the title of the article, but you interfere with other topic. Put your comments in the sections where they belong.
Don't behave childishly, and don't disrupt the flow of the discussion.
Kubura 06:11, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
I will try to make you understand once more, read this from
WP:NAME:
In the absence of a common English name, the current local name of the city should be used. When mentioned in a historical context, if there is not a common English name for the city in that historical period and context, use the appropriate historical name, with the current local name in parentheses (if it is not the same word) the first time the city is mentioned. See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names) for details.
The historical name was Ragusa. Both in English, Dalmatian and Italian, Slavic was not official and was rarely used (by writers) until the 17th century. I DID "READ BOOKS", apparently more than you... I am trying to tell you, you will never get the name changed, I would not mind, but it is impossible. DIREKTOR 10:23, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
There is no need to make all these frequent references for italian versions of certain names. The Republic had nothing to do with Italy and was never officialy part of the Venetian Republic. (Except for a very short time.) It never had an Italian minority so what is all this? Should we post german names for the islands as well? DIREKTOR
Lexicon: 1) Italian was not an official language of Ragusa,
Dalmatian was.
2) The Republic was under Venetian control for a time that is true, but it was independent before that, and prior to that, was part of the Byzantine Empire.
I will not revert anything as yet, in anticipation of your response/explanation.
DIREKTOR 12:53, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
I have 2 original scientific researches published by University of Science and Arts in Zadar, concerning the language spoken in Zadar and in its surrounding. It's very interesting because Venetian duke of Dalmatia (16th century) who was settled in Zadar (Zadar was the political centre of Dalmatia and there was the largest Venetian influence) is citated there. He wrote in his reports to Venice something like this: Nobody here speaks Italian language and nobody understands it, except a few noblemen. They're all speaking Slavic language... It's not by my hand this moment so I'll post it a little bit later. Zenanarh 07:27, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
It is well known that Latin was maintained for a VERY long period. Italian however, was not "official"". I am sure of that. The country spoke: Latin (administrative), Croatian (the masses), and Dalmatian (the higher classes, the Gospari), Italian was well known, that is certain, but out of necessity and mostly by the merchants, it is too much to say it was "official". You're right, the language was extinct, but so is Latin. It was not used in normal conversation, but in the debates in the Senate and in the proclamations. However, it was getting more and more replaced in common conversation, not by Italian, since they REALLY didn't like Venice (unlike Zadar), but by Croatian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DIREKTOR ( talk • contribs) 08:50, 20 July 2007
Wrong, Direktor. No citizen spoke Serb language nor "Croato-Serb" langugage. Don't spread your wishie-wishes here. Kubura 11:46, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
I wrote CROATIAN/CROATO-Serbian, Kubura. But fine, I'll fix that, besides, everyone knows what I mean... DIREKTOR 12:59, 20 July 2007 (UTC) P.S., "wishie-wishes"?? :D
There was no Croato-Serbian, only Croatian language. Read those text above.
Wishie-wishes. You wrote on your page that you want the "restoration of "Croato-Serbian language"". Make your fake world somewhere else. We don't need to distort the historical data because of your wishie-wishies.
DIREKTOR, you're pestering. That's type of trolling.
Kubura 12:22, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Look, I told you I removed that!, it's you who's pestering! I am not creating any fantasy world. Also, anyone that is not a completely indoctrinated freak can see that Croat and Serbian are incredibly alike, despite the fact that there was a war, despite the fact that Serbs attacked us, despite all those facts, this is still very obvious, exept for those who's nationalist pride (and perhaps religion) prevents them from objectively looking at facts. It will take more than one political party and 15 years, to change this millenia old simmilarity. Distort historical data!? My friend, you don't seem to know that in those days there was no Croatian (or Serbian) language, that it was not known as "Croatian" in Dubrovnik, that it was just called "Slavic", that it had very little in common with the language spoken in, let's say, Zagreb or Belgrade. Please, do not accuse me of distorting history you are not even familiar with. I assure you, there are still A LOT of people in Split whose nationality does not destroy their rational thought. DIREKTOR 13:28, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
All right, look: there was no standardised Croatian language during the time of the Ragusan Republic. the local dialect of Dalmatian was standardised. DIREKTOR 10:20, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
I can't believe this is in argument!, Dalmatian was the language spoken by the gospari and a part of the public for MOST of the time, not perhaps as much near the end of the Republic but during MOST of it's existence it was the "official" language. Spoken in the Senate. It is the primary language of the Republic. DIREKTOR 12:33, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
You are wrong. The common men spoke shtokavian, yes, but the gospari spoke Dalmatian for most of the republic's existance. They knew both BECAUSE THAT WAS THE ONLY LANGUAGE SPOKEN IN THE SENATE. What's all this about Latin and Italian? I'm talking about Dalmatian. read up on this...
I am fully aware of that. However it does not change the fact that the Latin/Romanic legacy was considered primary, as shown by the efforts of the ruling council to preserve it. DIREKTOR 14:07, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Dalmatian and Croatian language were mixing very early after the arrival of Slavic speakers. Especially out of the cities - the islands, inland... all those regions where the speakers of both languages were mixed. And it was everywhere out of the cities. So chakavian dialect of Croatian language originated - together with ikavian and kaikavian the oldest Slavic language in the western Balkans. That's why chakavian borrowed so many words, terms and toponims from Dalmatian. Of course Slavic speakers were predominant majority so Dalmatian idiom was quickly dissapearing. Dalmatian speakers in the cities survived somewhat longer. Cities were cultural, political and trading centres, domestic patricians were Dalmatian speakers, Croats were rapidly populating the cities but also they didn't imperil city traditions and rules. Sources from 10th to 15th century show that Croats were taking Romanized names. It's clear that in earlier periods many citizens were using both languages, depending on occassions. The population of the cities was differenced in a few classes: noblemen, citizens, habitants (more or less similar in all Dalmatian cities). No doubt that Croatian language was the most heard as well as Dalmatian was used in the noble society, no matter of what initial ethnicity was the speaker. Latin language was used for the documents, writings etc... not because of some imaginary Latins. It was one of 3 "civilised" languages: Hebrew, Greek and Latin, used in the liturgy and literacy in all "ex-Roman Empire Europe" and much wider in fact. BTW it's very important not to forget that Croatian was used in the churches and Glagolitic alphabetics, not Latin, almost everywhere in Dalmatia.
Official language in the present and in the early-Medieval are different conceptions. Latin was used only by writers, notars and similiar as an administrative language format, while Dalmatian and Croatian were spoken but literary too. Now, what does it mean official language in Medieval Dubrovnik? Administrative, literary or spoken? It's obvious that it was noble to speak Dalmatian and practical to speak Croatian. Zenanarh 17:00, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
I am certain Zenanarh will give you a more satisfactory answer. The Dalmatian language was kept alive by the Gospars (nobility) and was the language used in the Senate. It was extinct later on (like Latin, for example) but it was still the official language. DIREKTOR 01:38, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
My translation was a little bit shortened. Source says: Dalmatian language was never used as official language in the notes and writings, except sometimes in Dubrovnik as an administrative language for notar and cadastre documents. It says "sometimes" not always and it doesn't precise in which periods, I found in the net that testaments were written in Ragusan but link with reference is dead or replaced. I'm sure that references can be found but it would need some time.
One more thing, the source says that this language dissapeared in 18th century, but on the other hand I know a guy who made his magistery work about Dalmatian (Ragusan) and he can speak it! He also said that he knew many phrases in Ragusan of a common speech when he was a little boy since his parents were speaking it at home. Actually they used many phrases of Ragusan combined with Croatian. And that familly is from Zadar, where it's said it vanished the most earliest! For an example: when they wanted to say "leave me alone" or "for God sake" or "this lunch smells good" they used Ragusan; but when they wanted to say something more complicated they used Croatian.
It really sounds like simplified and distorted Latin, nothing similiar to Italian. And it has accentation on the first syllable. It's very interesting to hear it because you can hear how it influenced Croatian language spoken in these cities. Croatian spoken in Dubrovnik has accentation on the first syllable too (and long second syllable) and it is a characteristic of present Dubrovnik dialect of Croatian. The present common speech (Croatian) in Zadar also has accentation on the first syllable (not so accented as in Dubrovnik, but short and sharp second syllable), but it has sharpness of Ragusan. Ragusan sounds very sharp (as I percieved it), it can "cut" your ears! Present dialect spoken in Split has accent on the first syllable too but it is long, while the second is short. Obviously this accentation on the first syllable was the characteristic of that language and it influenced all Croatian dialects in Dalmatian cities. BTW Italian never have accentation on the first syllable, always second or third.
Zenanarh 13:03, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
I've reintroduced the histrical name according to
Wikpiedia's rules for historical names. I remember that 1) Before 1918 and later all the Dalmatian localities were written in Italian in ALL the English (such as French, German, and Spanish) books and Atlas. 2)Italian was the official language of the Republic. Futhemore: 3) Italian remained official language of Ragusa during the Austrian rule. 4)In all the Austro Huungaric Atlas the the names are wrotten in Italian. Etc.
I've not introduced a POV, but just a Wikipedia rule: all the unexplained reverts will be immediatly reported.
SOURCES
Search on Google Books (books printed before 1918):
Use of Italian historical names in antique maps of Dalmatia:
(Please, find similar maps using slavic names) -- Giovanni Giove 11:14, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
1) Italian was NEVER the "official" language of the Republic.
2) It is irrelevant in what language the Austrians, the French, the Spanish or even the Estonians preferred to call these cities (on their maps) as they were not part of their respective states at the time of the Republic.
3) Italian was not the official language in Ragusa at ANY time WHATSOEVER, that's the thing you have to source if it's true (non-Italian sources, please).
P.S. This is the history of the Republic of Ragusa, you are the one that needs to find RAGUSAN maps using Italian names, and you know it. You will not win the argument in this way.
DIREKTOR 14:31, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Giovanni Giove 10:48, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Your maps are irrelevant Giove, they represent a completely unimportant point of view. The "official" (there was no official language in those days) language of the republic was Dalmatian (even after it became extinct) NEVER Italian. Your maps say nothing and are a waste of time. You must find proof that Italian was the official language of the Republic! Very comical notion, since noone hated each-other like the Ragusans and Venetians. Every single edit you make to change the names from their present state will IMMEDIATLY be undone, IF YOU DO NOT FIND IRREFUTABLE PROOF FIRST. With buckets of respect, DIREKTOR 17:13, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Oh man... Look you, it is well known that only Dalmatian was spoken in the senate. Ragusa DID LEAVE documents and works of art written in both Dalmatian and (particularly) Croatian (read this: Ivan Gundulić). If YOU want to change something YOU ARE THE ONE THAT HAS TO FIND SOURCES, capisci? DIREKTOR 18:06, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Like I said, YOU WANT TO MAKE CHANGES, YOU FIND THE SOURCES. Documents undeniably confirming that the official language of the republic was Italian during the course of its history, please. Before you post them, I assure you none of your changes will stick. I am waiting. DIREKTOR 19:33, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Look, this is not Zadar this is Ragusa. You have to find SOMETHING (a document) confirming that the official language in Ragusa was Italian, if you once again try to impose your beliefs here I will do everything to stop it. We are talking about THE LOCAL official language! Not the international name for the geographic features of the Republic 100 years ago. There is a difference. "Meanwhile" do not do anything without sources, if you do, you will start another edit war. DIREKTOR 19:51, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
An Italian source? Like I always say, find an UNBIASED (non-Italian, non-Croatian) source, find a ragusan document confirming their official language was Italian, and post a link, FFS. No, caro amico, I wait for you... I will stop with further edits. DIREKTOR 20:05, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
This is a dispute about the possible ethnicity of the Republic of Ragusa (Italian and Slavic (Croat and/or Serb and or/Serbocroatian), or only Croat); about its languages, about the languages in which the localities and personalities shall be reported, etc..09:36, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Statements by editors previously involved in dispute
Comments
Have sources been found to support any of the claims of Italian or Croat dominance? nadav ( talk) 18:02, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
I would like to address the issue about the Slavic language of Dubrovnik. Giovanni speaks that we do not know wheter the language was Croatian or some other. He claims it was not the Croatian language because Croatian langauge was not standardized. He is wrong. We have dictionaries and gramamrs since 1595. by Faust Vrančić, 1604. grammar published in Rome by Bartol Kašić. Later Giacomo Micaglia also published his Latin-Italian-Illyric dictionary in 1649. Almost one hundred and fifty years later in 1801. Dubrovnik native Joakim Stulli, a lexicographer and linguists also published a dictionary. Those last three mentioned speak of "Illyric language" but they all equal "Illyric" with Croatian. Micaglia for example writes: "Hervat;Croata;Illyricus" and "Illyria;Croazia;Croatia". Stulli for example writes:"illyrice": "Slovinski, harvatski, hrovatski, horvatski" (English: "Illyric": "Slavonic, Croatian, Croat"). Vrančić speaks of "Dalmatian language" but already in reprinted second edition in Prague in early 17th century "Dalmatian" is replaced by "Croatian". Crotian literature is also the dominant in Dalmatia and Dubrovnik was in fact the main center for Croatian Baroque and Renaissance literature. There are also large number of Croatian Latinists in Dalmtia and other parts in Croatia: Aelius Lampridius Cervinus (from Dubrovnik), Franciscus Patricius (from Cres), Jannus Pannonius (from Slavonia)... My point is Croatian language was just as much standardized as was any other highly developed language of that time like English, French, Italian, Venetian and so forth.
As for the issue with Serbian language we need to understand the circumstances in middle 19th century. Serbia gained independance from Ottoman Empire and was young ambitious state with large imperialistic apetite. It influenced every way of life of Austro-Hungarian South Slavs who looked up to it. Serbia so gained a strategic advantage and became a leader in the struggle of South Slavs in Austro-Hungarian monarchy. During that time and later when Yugoslavia was formed a theory arose that the Shtokavian dialect in general is Serbian language, Chakavian dialect Croatian langauge and Kajkavian dialect Slovenian language. Since Dubrovnik's Slavic Croatian language belongs to Shtokavian dialect of the Central South Slavic diasystem. This theory was even generally aceppted at that time among linguists and even by prominent figures in Croatian national movement like Ljudevit Gaj or later in distinguished historian Natko Nodilo. But if we look into history we will see that we have absolutly no mention of Serbian language or people of Dubrovnik referring to their language as Serbian. We do have references and mention of Croatian language. The people of Dubrovnik also showed their allegiance to "Croathood" in 1893. at the Unveiling of the Gundulić monument. There is no doubt that the Slavic language of Dubrovnik was Croatian or at least Proto-Croatian. Raguseo 01:16, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
There is no point getting overly excited. Let's calm down and proceed as follows. I suggest each side bring forth direct quotes from sources that support their positions. Make a separate section for each side. Talking in generalities or basing comments merely on what we think we know is just not helpful. WP:V states that any statement in the encyclopedia that is not backed up by reliable sources can be deleted. So there's no point arguing without quoting the sources. nadav ( talk) 06:17, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
For what it's worth, I found a few tangentially related passages in Encyclopaedia Britannica:
nadav ( talk) 16:14, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Giovanni may be right that the Italian place names were prevalent in English during the time of the Republic, no? If this is true, then the guideline does say to use whatever name is more common in modern English historical treatments. Frequently, the historical names are used. nadav ( talk) 20:47, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Hmm there's no sense that toponyms were Italian, while speakers were Croatian and Ragusan. Zenanarh 21:53, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
I do not "lye". As for the "uncivil attitude", it is ridiculous slander! As far as I'm concerned, your RfC is just as ridiculous as you have not a SINGLE SOURCE to confirm your claims. DIREKTOR 19:42, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Typical. When Chetniks unite with Italian iredentists they make a great anti-Croat team. Please change the name back to what it was. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by UstashkiDom ( talk • contribs) 19:28, August 23, 2007 (UTC).
Oh no. I mean no insult, but please do take two steps back. I tried to tell you that isults and expressions of radical views help noone except you, to vent your frustration. Discuss normally and with real arguments, your radical edits thus far may only serve to label us all as fascists or something. And that is exactly what we absolutely do not need. Do you understand? Cool down, seriously, man.
DIREKTOR 00:59, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
I am disturbed that the falsehood that Ragusa was the first country to recognize the US has become so common. In truth, Ragusa was one of the last states to do so, as it feared provoking the British. I added a couple links that describe Ragusa's early relations with the Us. nadav ( talk) 19:05, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi, Nadav. I have some material about that. There was a whole "game", how old Dubrovnikans did that, without making British angry. In fact, I should add that to the article. Still, the article is too large, maybe we'll need to make another article (Diplomacy of Republic of Dubrovnik). Kubura 14:49, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't there be some mention of Jews? -- 84.20.17.84 16:27, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree. There's a lot to say. Kubura 14:46, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
It seems that somebody has taken text (not making the reference) from this Britannica scan:
That page has many scanning mistakes so probably that X was a lambda and a was alpha. Somebody should check the original Greek spelling and correct, making the proper references. -- 84.20.17.84 16:42, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
I made some changes to the Former Country Infobox and someone should make sure it now contains correct (and appropriate) information. The reason for me tempering with it was the association of the date of the Treaty of Zadar ( June 27) with the year of establishment ( 1032), which I deemed incorrect. This sets up my follow-up questions: 1) what exactly occurred in 1032 to consider this year the start of the Republic, and 2) shouldn't that be covered in the article body? Damir 22:19, 21 September 2007 (UTC)