This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Priesthood (Latter Day Saints) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
See Archive for Priesthood offices, patriarchal priesthood, Hierarchy, Org Structure
Just did a quick read through of the changes in this page referenced on Talk:Melchizedek Priesthood. Overall, the information is good, but there are doctrinal issues/clarifications that need to be fixed. I'll work on as soon as I get a few minutes. I'm still not sure on the wisdom of having a separate Melchizedek Priesthood and Aaronic Priesthood pages, as other religious denominations also claim to have one or both of these authorities, and the article as it stands is too Mormonsim-centric for NPOV. See comments on Talk:Melchizedek Priesthood. Visorstuff 14:09, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I created a Priesthood (Latter-day Saint) page, and moved the LDS-specific material there. COGDEN 00:27, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Per the directive of the [ Latter Day Saint movement project] regarding articles ending (Mormonism), (Latter-day Saint), (Community of Christ), (Strangite), etc., this article has been combined with the former Priesthood (Latter-day Saint) article. -- John Hamer 05:48, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
In the artcle it says "In Mormonism, priesthood is considered to be (1) a power, or (2) an authority." Shouldn't "or" be replaced with "and"? -- Parlod 18:56, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Not sure I quite get the intent of the latest rewrite -- always a good idea to fill in the edit summary by way of giving at least a hint. (I'm also very puzzled by it being flagged as a 'minor' edit.) Isn't the total of 15 apostles rather more than "typical"? I'd have thought it was, at least, of "traditional" standing, and perhaps one might be more specific still. Not that I any deep-rooted objections to the new content as such... Alai 20:53, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
the most senior member of the group (in years served as an apostle)
Isn't that seniority since (first) joining the Qot12A, according to earlier discussion, rather since ordination as an apostle? Alai 22:28, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Very nice work, Trodel - however, I hope you kept the original file - it needs some minor doctrinal corrections - the presiding bishopric is not independant of the twelve - the arrow should go from the twelve and first presidency to them. Same with Auxilliary boards and committees (I'd put a solid line from 12 and dotted line from 70 to Auxiliaries)(also, if you do auxilliaries on the general level, you should on teh stake and ward level as well - as they are all auxilliary to the priesthood). Then the 70s need to have solid to 12 not First presidency - remember they are to work "under the direction of the twelve."
Under missions, I'd put "Elders Quorum, Melchizedek Pristhood Group Leader or Aaronic Priesthood Group Leader" (maybe an asterisk would suffice, but this is important distrintion in may developing areas of the Church - and actually my own ward). I'd do teh same under branch on the stake chart level.
Under Stake, I'd put a dotted line under bishop to both quorum/group leaders -- he is the presiding high priest, and in practice is typically much more involved with directing their work than the Stake presidency is (also should add in auxilliaries and Aaronic Priesthood, see below).
Lastly, due to the "Latter Day Saint (not CoJCoLDS) slant to these pages, we'll need to add in the Aaronic priesthood quorum leadership. In other denominations, these play a much bigger role, and typically the culture in the CoJCoLDS does not give them the respect they should get (mainly because of age). The Teacher's quorum president, not an elder, would preside over a ward meeting in absence of a bishop, EQP or delegated responsibility to a HP. He holds keys and as such is in the hierarchy, and will play a much larger role in the winding up scene than most Mormons believe (think big meeting with people who hold keys). But in practice instruggling areas (for example, Russia) the Aaronic Priesthood may take a much more prominent role in the leadership of a Branch than in the established places like the United States.
The arrows could also be confusing - the green is to signify that the calling must be apprvoed by the 1st presidency - however, their direct reports are not in green. Also, I'm not sure that a Branch President needs 1st presidency apprvoal - a number of missionaries have served as this - not sure if the - does anyone know? For some reason, I'm not sure if this is correct....
This is an excellent chart - only focuses on CoJCoLDS perspective and cultural interpretations, rather than doctrinal interpretations (which is pretty common) - would like to see similar ones for other confusing tables in our pages. Let me know if you can still make the changes - Visorstuff 18:42, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Hmmm. That explanation makes the arrows even more confusing, as all bishops are "called" by the First Presidency (much the same as a EQP is called by the Stake president after a "recommendation" from the bishop). I'd recommend doing reporting structure. In regard to how the stakes report into the twelve/70, think of the 70 as the high counsel to the stake presidency. The Stake President looks to the advice and counsel of the 70 assigned to him who acts for the twelve, in exacly the same way that the EQP looks to the high council assigned to him, although he reports to the stake president. The High Council and the 70 have no true jurisdiction over the presidencies named. So show the 70 in the same as you show the High Council. Still not sure on Branches. - Visorstuff 22:04, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC) ... ... stuff moved to Archive I'd still remove temple jurisdiction stuff - not relevant to "Priesthood" (mormonsim) unless you start discussing patriarchal priesthood, which is only brushed upon in the article.
- Visorstuff 00:40, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Impressive-looking stuff, though waaaaay over my head. I agree that one needs to be both careful about where the 'arrows' go, and as explicit as possible as to what they represent. If it represents the 'in practice' reality of who makes appointments 'for all intents and purposes', rather than the doctrinal position of who is called by whom, or whose formal approval is required, say so as clearly as possible. Alai 00:45, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I made a new chart that I tried to create based on D&C 107 without regard to the way the revelation has been implemented at any of the Latter Day Saint movement churches. BTW - I left the First Presidency, the Quorum of Twelve both as HP in the chart because they are described as the three Presiding High Priests - and councilors to the presiding High Priests - but think they should probably be in a different color and listed as Apostles. Ditto Seventys. Though it is unclear from 107 only if the First Presidency must also be apostles. Comments? Trödel| talk 04:52, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Hmmm. Your reading of D&C 107 is slightly different than mine - plus it ignores other revelations such as D&C 20, 88, 84, 68, 110, 128, 10 and many others, including specific instructions in the History of The Church by Smith about revelations he recieved that were not recorded that discuss hierarchy. I believe your other chart was much closer. Let's work on the previous version, rather than address the problems with this one.
The First Presidency does not need to all be apostles - on the presiding high priest needs to also be an apostle, holding all keys. His counselors may be any high priest from the church. Remember that Bishops and Elders are appendages to the High Priesthood (D&C 107), so once you are a high priest, you always are a high priest - this is why patriarchs and bishops are part of the high priest's quorum, although they are also other offices in the priesthood. Once a high priest always a high priest - they hold two priesthood offices at once. So the apostles are also high priests and apostles. Same with 70. This was all part of the discussion above (perhaps not so irrelevant after all). Let's fix the other chart in reference to Mormonism since it is closer. Also, due to the scholarly debates over the meaning of "equal in authority" we should not include that - too hard to explain the different sides of the debate.
On another note, Val42 - home teachers 'should' fit under the duties of a teacher in the aaronic priesthood and therefore are already included in the hierarchy under that office (D&C 20). No need to include them twice, but your point should be emphasized - it is a good one. Again, I think we take the offices and responsibiliites of the AP too lightly in The CoJCoLDS.
Trodel - you may want to see if you can pick up a copy of 'Priesthood and Church Government' by John A. Widstoe. This is the best "Latter Day Saint" work on the priesthood organization, and then discusses how it is practiced in the post-Smith Church. Another resource from excerpts of the Encyclopedia of Mormonism can be found at http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/organization/index.htm
Thoughts (sorry if comments seem harsh)? - Visorstuff 17:56, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Can't believe it's been two weeks since Iw orked on this - should have some time this weekend. Trödel| talk 04:48, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I haven't been following this article for quite some time, and I like the idea of having a chart, but if we do this, I think we might need more than one chart. The church organization during the early church underwent a number of changes through the years. For example, in 1830, there were just Elders, Priests, and Teachers, with Smith being the First Elder. (And some have argued, controversially, that Elder was originally an Aaronic Priesthood office.) The chart should also reflect more prominently the office of Patriarch, which was a much more important and independent position when it was held by Hyrum Smith. Also, I have a problem with the hierarchical nature of the chart. The hierarchical relationships implied by the arrows are generally the contribution of Brigham Young, rather than Joseph Smith. COGDEN 18:23, May 9, 2005 (UTC)
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints prefers that notation. "Latter Day Saint", "Latter-Day Saint", etc, is incorrect. The correct notation is "Latter-day Saint".
-I noticed in the chart, under Deacons Quorum, it says "(12 Teachers)" instead of "12 Deacons", a blatant typo perhaps? -- Lord Spade 01:27, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Merge with Mormonism
Only Mormons seem to deem themselfs worthy of a Temple page and a Priesthood page. Where is the Cathedral (Catholic) or the Priesthood (Catholic) or other religions. I think this page can live on the main page.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Impending ( talk • contribs)
I have removed the merge tag per WP:SNOW and WP:POINT. There are plenty of precedents for articles on the clergy of various religions and Mormonism is no exception. Kafziel Talk 16:24, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
I am posting these here prior to making any edits in order to get feedback from prior editors of the page.
1. In the first part of the article I feel a bit of a cynical tone. Over use of phrases such as "...is considered to be...", excessive use of quotation marks around terminology, along with repeated use of the phrase "...ritual ceremony..." make me feel a cynical slant.
2. In various places the phrases "There is some disagreement..." and "Many Latter Day Saints believe..." implies that there is debate or significant disagreement within established Latter Day Saint denominations. While there is disagreement among denominations, I think within any given denomination there is little or no disagreement on most (not all) of these matters. I think these statement should be reworded a bit to indicate disagreement between denominations of Latter Day Saints.
3. In some places the term "Latter Day Saints" is used, in others the term "Mormons" is used. Is there some shade of meaning to 'Mormons' that is different from "Latter Day Saints"? 74s181 00:55, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Why does this faith confuse me so much?
Osi Osi Osi —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.214.107.212 ( talk) 05:18, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
First time comment on wikipedia. I was looking over the 'order of priesthood' section. and my first reaction was there is not three orders of priesthood only two. (The Melchizedek and Aaronic Priesthoods. (Reading over the whole article also gives this impression as the 3rd order is not supported in the same way as the first two). There are things is this article that are expressed as if there is some confusion which I do not have confusion (nor do I believe other members have confusion on these topics). I belong the the 'denomination' that is head quarters in salt lake city and has temple square in the middle of salt lake city. Also reading over the section of "Calling by faith and good works" I am concerned that someone who is learning about the church would think someone could do going works and call themselves to a calling which is not true. They need to be called by god through the priesthood authority already established. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.72.152.106 ( talk) 16:36, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
I don't see why these two pages are separate ( Priesthood (Latter Day Saints) and Priesthood (LDS Church)). There appears to be significant duplication of information, and I percieve that it is confusing for non-LDS to get why there are two articles on apparently the same subject. Why not put them into one article, and where differences between denominations exist, they can be spelled out in the article itself.
It becomes increasingly clear that the Community of Christ is no longer part of Mormonism, and rather is simply an idiosyncratic part of Protestantism. Therefore, I think it becomes increasingly fictitious to pretend that the LDS Church and the Community of Christ share some common theology or ecclesiology. There is certainly a shared history, and there are a lot of similarities. For example, the two denominations have roughly the same offices, and believe in two orders of priesthood. However, the fundamental understanding of priesthood is different.
The Community of Christ, for example, maintains a rather charismatic Protestant view of priesthood, reflective of Mormonism as it existed in roughly the 1830s and in the Book of Mormon. The LDS Church, on the other hand, has a more hierarchical, successionistic view of priesthood probably more in common with Catholicism. I think there is a fundamental difference there that this article tries to ignore. So I don't think it makes sense any longer to have an article broader than Priesthood (Mormonism) that includes the Community of Christ. I'm sure that members of the Community of Christ would be quick to agree. Besides, both the LDS Church and the Community of Christ have their own specific Priesthood articles.
Therefore, I propose that we rename this article from Priesthood (Latter Day Saints) to Priesthood (Mormonism). We can simply cross-reference between the articles in the "see also" section. (Ultimately, I think we can incorporate material from the Priesthood (LDS Church) article into this article, and turn the former into a list article describing LDS priesthood offices, whereas this article would describe the meaning, history, and origin of priesthood within Mormonism.) COGDEN 22:09, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
Should the be a small section detailing the different between power and authority? For instance the apostles have the same power in the priesthood as the prophet, but the prophet only has the authority and keys to use them all. Likewise, an Elder may have authority to confirm the holy ghost, but through transgression no longer has the power. Thanks Superbuttons ( talk) 21:22, 25 June 2013 (UTC)