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Pier Gerlofs Donia was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||
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I moved the article about Pier Donia from "Greate Pier" to his real name. His nickname is what he is commonly referred by, but it has several variants. "Grutte Pier" (his local nickname) is what he is best known by (if anyone thinks his nickname should be the main article), this is also the subscript on his statue in Kimswerd. All common nicknames now redirect here. JeroenHoek 12:56, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)
A great article, about Grutte Pier, the leader of the Arumer Black Heap! -)-(-H- (|-|) -O-)-(- 16:58, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Hi. At the request of a regular contributor to this article, I have gone through the existing (as of timestamp below) content, making sure that the English usage is correct and befitting of an article of this kind. However, may I please register my opinion, namely that hard, properly directed references are needed, rather than the loose collection of external links which are shown at the moment. I do not feel qualified to do the source directing, given my lack of knowledge of subject, so would be grateful if this could be attended to. Thus the reference tag on the article I'm afraid. Best wishes and good luck. Ref (chew) (do) 22:02, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Well, you have my permission to improve whatever you want to improve, Refwordslee! -)-(-H- (|-|) -O-)-(- 13:49, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
What is the evidence that Grutte Pier is descended from the Galama family? Now that Galema family is deleted, I can see the conmnection from there! Since this is controversial I would like to attach a genealogical note for this too. GB 23:00, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Pier GERLOFS is the cousin of Ygo Gales Galama 3 times removed. Use the relationship calculator on langenberg-laagland.com to see family tree. Use Pier Gerlofs and Ygo Gales Galama names in calculator. Pier is not as far as I am aware descended from the Galama family, just cousins. Ezza61 14:36, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Well, according to the Langenberg-laagland website, which you've mentioned above, you are completely right. -)-(-H- (|-|) -O-)-(- 15:09, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
This article failed good article nomination. This is how the article, as of June 9, 2007, compares against the six good article criteria:
When these issues are addressed, the article can be resubmitted for consideration. If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to a GA review. Thank you for your work so far. — Anas talk? 10:46, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
— Anas talk? 10:46, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Hi. For what it's worth, and honestly not being hyper-critical (as I have contributed English grammar and spelling checks to this article myself), it is still a long way from qualifying as a "Good Article".
The main failings, in plain English, are:
I feel that interested editors need to refrain from putting this article up again at GA until the above major points have been addressed. Thanks, and good luck with it. Ref (chew) (do) 16:00, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
About the most points; you're right.
I think, I don't really understand that. After all, this man was a legendray warrior, often considered the world greatest (mainly in Frisia, where he's folk hero nr. 1 ;). So explain yourself. For the rest of it; I sure ain't critising it! -)-(-H- (|-|) -O-)-(- 19:20, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Who likes to lits this one, again, as GA-nominee? I think that with the completion of the last translation, it might fit the Good Article-status. 84.87.138.105 10:44, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Its still not ready yet. What is Fiveval or Vifeval? There should be a citation for this author, and a single spelling. It still needs to have the references tidied. Also in-line citations would help out. The biased tone becomes more apparent when you look at the what links here. And I must also admit that my ancestry is not entirely free of relatives to the subject of this article, but it is still possible to be neutral. Also even though I typed in the translation, this is not the last hurdle to GA. (And by the way I cannot read Frisian). GB 13:31, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
What are you telling me, GB? That you have ancestors related to the great Pier Gerlofs Donia? Thats great! Are you a very big strongman aswell? Well, anyway, I hope you know what can be done about that so called "biased tone". Because I think the article is kinda neutral. Can you pick up some phrases which need special attention, in matters of tone and style? 84.87.138.105 18:13, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi 84.87.138.105, should I still be calling you H-O? Anyway my first specific request for you is to sort out how that Fiveval is really spelled? Can you get a reference for the name, as it seems to be absent from the internet - it may well be spelled wrongly! I have also put a cn tag on a part that needs a reference to support it.
Also the suggestion that be was a monarch by including the monarch infobox, and the box at the bottom suggesting that there was a sequence of rulers of Friesland is part of the non neutral point of view. Pier was only a self proclaimed monarch, not recognized by many others. Graeme Bartlett 12:22, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
I think this article looks like it has been written only for Frisian and Dutch readers. I suggest, in order to improve it, the Dutch and Frisian names should be set to the English words for them. For example; I changed Arumer Zwarte Hoop to Arumer Black Heap. -The Bold Guy- 10:57, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Was there an article on the Arumer Black Heap? What did it say? Who deleted it, and when? Do you know, perhaps, I am deeply interested in this Pier, and all the related articles. -The Bold Guy- 12:22, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for answering me, GraemeBartlett; that'le help me. I ahve a new suggestion, of adding Lord Donia to the List of undefeated military commanders, since he was never to be defeated; does that sound as a good thing to you? -The Bold Guy- 11:44, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Oh, yes, sorry for my answer being this late, but I really appreciate you re-adding the Arumer Black Heap-article; I'm pretty interested; was it a good article, or was it really just unreferenced crap? -The Bold Guy- 13:59, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
I greatly dispute this articles neutrality. Since the tone is rather biased, I think large parts of the text need to be re-written yet again. It tone thus, needs to be changed dramaticly, or else. Thafadi Adahabou 09:43, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
I've found some sources claiming his height between 6,5 and 7,5ft, and his weight around 500lbs. -The Bold Guy- 12:11, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Concerned about including height and weight - A height difference of 6,5 to 7,5 is a pretty big range, almost makes it a nonscence to include it. Perhaps just acknowledging he was a big guy is sufficient unless you have a genuine text reference. Also goes for the weight, 500 pounds (230 kilograms), that would make him the size of a sumo wrestler, I am not sure he would be traveling from one side of the country to another fighting battles at that weight. Is there a genuine text reference. This article has a history of being derailed with exaggerations, it now seems to be on the way to correcting that with inline references and deletion of misinformation, please do not let it slip back again. Concerned reader. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.68.170.186 ( talk) 01:20, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
I have no doubts that he was 'big' but to give specifics without a true original source/reference is still just a guess. In which case it is probably better just to acknowledge that he was big and leave it at that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.95.40.4 ( talk) 04:43, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Lets be serious here. We know he was big but you just can't make up a height and weight to fit what you think he might have been. Please quote an original reference that gives the specifics you are talking about. I have not seen any. Gigantism!!! Please.. It was not unusual to die at what we would call an early age in the 1500s. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.68.160.65 ( talk) 11:10, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Well, Pier himself was a decendant of Frisian warlord and chieftain Haring Harinxma, who lived hundred years earlier. That man also lived trough a though life, be he died at age of 81! And in the 1400s, the conditions of living were even worse than in the 1500s! So when looking at his ancestry, and genetics, he should have been able to reach a way higher age (he must have been rich after the sacking of many villages and the taking of over 50 ships). But he didn't get old, because he was ill. He must have had gigantism, when looking at these facts. Or some other decease which made him bigger! Because he was able to reach a much higher age than he did reach. -The Bold Guy- 11:44, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Back then they didn't have all the weights and equipment we have today so it shouldve been nearly impossible to get that strong. I think that he lacked the gene for the myostatin protein which would also explain his early death. Claidheamohmor 21:07, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Weights get you stronger, yeah, but did warriors train that days? No, they didn't! And still, I bet they were stronger and in better health than most people nowadays. How come? Because they cut of heads, wielded big weapons, ran towards and away enemies, rode horses (Grutte Pier didn't, I think...), and that way got loads of muscles due to their lifestyle. And you net this man was allways on the run for and after enemies, most of the time followed by an army of over 4000 soldiers of his own. So you bet he was damn strong; he did not need weights for gaining an enormous muscular body; he used to be a farmer and after that a warrior, so for all the time, he worked physically, and this must have made him enormously strong. -The Bold Guy- 14:46, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Wijard Gerlofs Donia, nephew to Pier, just got himself an article and I made it. -The Bold Guy- ( talk) 16:26, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
I noticed the following source: Vaderlandsch Woordenboek By Jacobus Kok, Published 1791 J. Allart. The problem is that this is an encyclopaedia with 35 volumes. It's not clear which volume is cited. Baldrick90 ( talk) 01:10, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Thiz really is one hell of a great article! And Grutte Pier was a real cool guy. But why is this article then B-class and not GA? Angela from the Blue ( talk) 14:14, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
The Vaderlandsch Woordenboek P-R makes no mention of Greate Pier being gay or bisexual or anything similar. The 'sexuality' comments are mischevious nonsense and should be removed. Angela from the Blue has a history of Vandalism on pages and should truly make a 'new start'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.101.206.60 ( talk) 10:30, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
It can be read from the writings of Peter Thaborita, who was the man's biographer. Angela from the Blue ( talk) 15:17, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
No, not at the moment. These works of Thaborita are rare. They are in the Frisian national archieve partly, and the other part belongs to the private collection of someone who I know. So right now, there is nothing I can show you. Angela from the Blue ( talk) 15:29, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
And why is that, then? Because it is based on sources not everyone has access to? Well in that case I gladly invite you to Wonseradeel, Fryslan, where the collection of works by Thaborita is kept. Angela from the Blue ( talk) 15:39, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
If you can read old-Frisian, you might want to check it... I can also aks whether I may take digital pictures of the exact page mentioning Donia's sexuality and upload it as soon as possible. Angela from the Blue ( talk) 15:42, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
I will phone the owner of the text tomorrow and ask him whether I am allowed to take photo's. I'm not sure if it is legible, but when I upload it in a high revolution, you can allways zoom in! ;) Angela from the Blue ( talk) 16:12, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Nearly all information on him is based on the biography Thaborita wrote on him. It is one of the oldest still-excisting written sources about Donia. It has been used many times. Many other books use the information written in it. It is a reliable source and can be used fairly. So the section on Donia's sexuality should be kept. And if he weren't gay, you could replace it with one claiming how straight he was. But I bet you cannot find any source claiming he was a good husband, a womaniser nor anything on his contacts with women... Think about it! Angela from the Blue ( talk) 17:08, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
I changed the headers for a couple reasons. First, {{ talkheader}} is only supposed to be used on controversial pages - says so right on the description page. Second, until and unless there's a reliable source that Donia was in fact homosexual or bisexual, there's no reason for this article to be a part of WP:LGBT. Third, I like {{ WikiProjectBannerShell}} better than {{ WikiProjectBanners}}. That's just my 2 cents, though :) -- SatyrTN ( talk / contribs) 21:36, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Okay. But the page is controversial. The man is considered a freedom fighting folk hero by many, but also considered a murderous thug by just as many others. He is portrayed heroically in books, and portrayed as a villain in tv series and films. Overall, you could call the man a rather controversial figure. So at least the talkheader should be re-added. Do you agree? Angela from the Blue ( talk) 11:29, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Grutte Pier is either gay or straight. Nothing else to it. No hard feelings. He just is. There is much notable sources backing up this claim. So why not add it to the article? Is there no source you people know claiming him to be queer? Then perhaps another source can be found stating just how manly he was and how much of a womanizer. But it must be either one of the two. A section must be made concerning his sexuality! When he's straight, then put that to the article. Angela from the Blue ( talk) 14:28, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Is there any source claiming he is straight? The answer is simple: there is none. Then why not include that on the article? Another point: after the death of his wife, why didn't he remarry? Maybe because he prefered not it having to live with a woman! There is no source in which his attraction to any sex is mentioned. Not at all. Maybe he was asexual. Angela from the Blue ( talk) 19:15, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
That is because old writings of Peter Thaborita have caught my eye. These belonged to a friend of mines personal collection. You see, I am related to Thaborita via a bastard son of his (he was a monk, you see), and that is why this caughts my interests. In the original biography Thaborita wrote on Donia, there are some mentionings in which he states "Donia feels little or no affection to women around him" and there is a chapter in which is spoken about Donia's interests in boy servant of his. That is why. Angela from the Blue ( talk) 19:27, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, indeed the tale is known in our family. But not more then on a rather local scale. I told my daughter this once - she told it at school and got laughed at by her teacher. So I was like: "why don't we try getting it on wikipedia?" So I tried. No I see I was going a bit to far; wikipedia needs sources and since I am unable to give them, I'll except the fact this will never be known to a wide audience. So be it. Thanks for your help and understanding, yours sincerely,
Angela from the Blue (
talk) 19:42, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Regarding the sword of Pier Gerlofs: A curator at the Fries museum told me in 1998 that the sword on display was never actually meant to be wielded as one would a normal sword. It's type was specifically designed to be wielded swinging above one's head when defending battlements, thus attempting to behead anyone who tried to scale the walls. As such, it could be wielded by anyone with sufficient strength and extraordinary height of the wielder would have been a handicap because any part of a man's body protruding above the battlements was a vulnerability.
Pier's stature can therefore not be measured by the size of this sword nor is it very likely that he was actually it's owner. It makes good folklore, though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.27.16.7 ( talk) 10:14, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
I'd say Donia was big as certain feats of strenght would suggest. His features might even suggest Acromelagy or Gigantism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.172.170.26 ( talk) 10:40, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
This article failed good article nomination. This is how the article, as of June 9, 2007, compares against the six good article criteria:
When these issues are addressed, the article can be resubmitted for consideration. If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to a GA review. Thank you for your work so far. — Anas talk? 10:46, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
— Anas talk? 10:46, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Hi! I will be reviewing this article for GA status and should have the full review up within a couple of hours. Dana boomer ( talk) 19:00, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
There are some serious issues with the referencing of this article that must be rectified before the article can be passed to GA status. As I have stated above, I have not done a complete check of the prose, due to the referencing concerns I have, and so once I see that work is being done on the issues noted above, I will begin a check of the prose. I am putting the article on hold for seven days to allow time to address these concerns. Let me know here on the review page or on my talk page if you have any questions. Dana boomer ( talk) 19:18, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
There has been much editing done since then. I think it will pass now, Dan Boomer, I really do. You see, it just is very good. The prose has been improved by the Rambling man, Greame Bartlett and the Bold Guy have referenced it and User talk:Jimbo Wales has proof read it. I am pretty sure you'll pass this to GA now, won't you? Last king of Frisia ( talk) 09:06, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
At the moment, it appears that two of the main editors of this article have been indef blocked for sock puppetry. However, other users have since been working on this article. Are any of you willing to take over prepping this article for GA? There is not much left to do, simply some reference formatting and gathering references for a couple of sections. Drop me a note here if you wish to take over the article. I'll leave this open for a day or so, and if no-one responds, I will have to fail the review. Dana boomer ( talk) 12:38, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
This article is most utterly well written and is of a great and high set quality. It's prose is almost brilliant, it's sources clearly stated, it is of a well to read length and it is well illustrated. It should at least be a Good Article judges by the standards required, and when you would ask me personally I would say it almost fits Featured Article requirements. For weeks, several editors have be working on it and I think their dedication to the subject must be rewarded by having the article pass GA. Cheers for all who have worked on it so well! 86.89.146.118 ( talk) 18:21, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
May I make a suggestion? I am responsible for many (not all) of the Dutch text references. These are genuine texts and the associated ‘facts/extracts’ (translated to English) and quoted in the wiki Grote Pier article are genuine. In most cases I quoted the reference and page numbers to assist those interested. All the texts I used are currently available, many electronically. Unfortunately there are very few English texts on Grote Pier and virtually zero that discuss GP in any detail hence the lack of quotable English language references. This is a shame as GP is of significant historical importance to the people of Friesland and is certainly worthy of mention in the English Wiki. May I suggest that an English speaking editor from the Dutch language Wiki be approached to act as an editor for the English Wiki article on GP as he may confirm for those non-Dutch speaking doubters the authenticity of the Dutch references. I believe that if individuals are going to critique a wiki article that quotes non-English references then they should be prepared to put in some genuine effort themselves, or find some one that can, to authenticate sources rather than make unqualified comments such as those made by Dana boomer i.e. doubting the reliability of references” when they have obviously not carried out any investigation at all.
Additional info re: GP
In an interesting twist the Landsknecht Black Band responsible for the pillaging of Pier’s village, Kimswerd, were to later literally change sides and left the employ of the Duke of Saxony (who failed to renumerate them) to join their ‘enemy’ Charles Duke of Guelders. It was through this association that for a short time the Black Band fought alongside Grote Pier. It was Grote Pier and the Arumer Zwarte Hoop who would transport by sea the Landsknecht Black Band to Medemblik where a ferocious attack on the town occurred.
…Yes, when I make the addition to the GP article I will quote a reference, unfortunately it will most likely be a Dutch reference.
Ezza61 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ezza61 ( talk • contribs) 10:48, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
In the Rebellion section of the article, it says "The Black Band were notorious as a violent military force; when their pay was insufficient or lacking, would exact payments from local villagers and on 29 January 1515, the Black Hand plundered Donia's village, allegedly raped and killed his wife, Rintze Syrtsema, and burnt to the ground both the village church and Donia's estate." I'm responsible for translating this article to Portuguese and I had two doubts when reading this: first, couldn't it be better to state that "The Black Band (...) they would extract payments..."; and was it really the Black Hand who invaded Kimswerd, not the Black Band again? Black Hand's article says that they were founded in the 20th century, although Donia's article doesn't link to them (maybe that's a reason), could I get an explanation on this?
Thanks in advance, Daimore msg 17:03, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Ok, the paragraph you refer to could be written better but no it was not the 'Black Hand' it was the 'Black Band'. The 'Black Band' was a Landsknecht mercenary regiment formed in the 16th century just like the wikipedia article says. If the 'Black Hand' was formed in 20th century then I think you have answered your own question. Ezza61 ( talk) 09:53, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Ah, Daimore, I noticed the work you have recently been doing on a Portugese version of this article on Donia. I must say I am impressed with the work you've done on that translation: many of the sentences here (especially quotes) must be hard to translate. If you need any help, maybe I could help you in some way, at least I could explain which sources are in West-Frisian, which are in Dutch and which are in English (although the last one will work out I bet!). The article here contains very little factual errors or spelling errors and I hope the last few like the one on Black Hand and things like that will be corrected while you and other translaters are closely watching and reading everything. You might notice mistakes editors here forget about! 217.121.99.44 ( talk) 12:38, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
The article was failed quite some time ago by its reviewer and still the tag saying it is a current nominee has not been removed. Is this common procedure or should it have been removed by now? 217.121.96.159 ( talk) 18:35, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Thank you! Oh, btw, since it has been failed, it has been greatly improved. Looking at this well-referenced article you see here today, would you think it would pass when renominated? 217.121.96.159 ( talk) 18:50, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
We need to finish off implementing the suggestions from the previous failure, otherwise there will be an easy and fast failure excuse again! Not all refs have lang tags yet. Are there an Frisian language refs? Graeme Bartlett ( talk) 22:16, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
Is his wife notable enough to make her a small article? Oh, and does anyone have some more images of Pier Gerlofs Donia, for example one of his helmet in Sneek or his sword (or even a replica in Fries museum)... anyone? Jouke Bersma Contributions 09:22, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
Yes, a artwork or reconstruction would be great - the interest in the subject has been huge indeed. It would be a good thing - great suggestion. Do you, by any chance, know someone who could make such an artwork - or could you yourself make one? Any artistic contributors here? 193.172.170.26 ( talk) 12:36, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
how much is known about grutte piers appearence, i mean: his weight? how much did he weigh? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.121.99.139 ( talk) 18:07, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
could someone please make an artwork depicting pier gerlofs donia and upload it here that would truly be great we need such an artwork i mean especially with the great interest there is in this hugely interesting figure and the legends surrounding him. could anyone here who sees this request please respond? i mean, if you do not know what to do here then please ask someone else to make it - i mean, there has to be someone who is artistic here. maybe some one who has been contributing to the article is able to make a beautiful and educative drawing or painting or anything similar. a photograph of the exact location of donia's farm would be great, or of the location on which a big battle took place (such as near Hindeloopen were he fought and defeated 300 enemies all by himself), or near the coast of Hoorn were he sank 28 ships - that would be great. at the moment there are just three images and there should be 5 or six that would be fine. then there might be someone who could expand the article some way - it can always get longer (about 30% more text would be fine when there are also more images, that looks more professional and easy to read aswel). More images would make the article better to read and better to look at - some minor spelling mistakes could be taken out. i am especially interested in the suggestion of someone making an artwork depicting donia that would be the best option that was a great suggestion graeme bartlett made i hope this will actually happen and that this is not just empty talk. 193.172.170.26 ( talk) 13:41, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't Grote Pier be translated as Big Pier (or tall or long or something)? Dutch groot can mean great allright. However, in the article it says right in the first sentence that groot refers to Piers' size. Zoppp ( talk) 23:02, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
I have two things to ask:
Trotse Roma ( talk) 10:43, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
In an old history published in 1835 on the history of the Netherlands by Heinrich Leo, Halle 1835, (Zwölf Bücher niederländischer Geschichten, p283f) I found a reference where the burning of Medemblick, Alkmaar and Asperen was attributed to the Black Band - after its return from French service, chiefly at Marignano - to the Duke of Gueldern. Some research showed that Johann Samuel Ersch, in his Encylopedia, repeated the same story in his entry for "Egmont, p253f" ( http://gdz.sub.uni-goettingen.de/dms/load/toc/?PPN=PPN345284054&IDDOC=141451). He even tells the story that the population of Asperen was slaughtered because the Bands had some 1500 casualties during their assault. They may have used the same original source, though. Given the background of Pier Donia, I find it hard to believe that he would have fought in any way alongside the Black Band. Can it be that the atrocities on Dutch towns are wrongly attributed to the Arumer Zwarte Hoop? Alternatively, that this unit is actually just another name for the Black Band in the service of Gueldern? Is there any information available in Dutch that explains in detail the contribution of the Black Band from 1515 onwards? ASchudak ( talk) 22:35, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
From above: Additional info re: GP In an interesting twist the Landsknecht Black Band responsible for the pillaging of Pier’s village, Kimswerd, were to later literally change sides and left the employ of the Duke of Saxony (who failed to renumerate them) to join their ‘enemy’ Charles Duke of Guelders. It was through this association that for a short time the Black Band fought alongside Grote Pier. It was Grote Pier and the Arumer Zwarte Hoop who would transport by sea the Landsknecht Black Band to Medemblik where a ferocious attack on the town occurred. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.37.171.196 ( talk) 02:25, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Pier Gerlofs Donia/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
B-Class-1=yes.
B-Class-2=yes. B-Class-3=yes. B-Class-4=yes. B-Class-5=yes. It deserves to be more than just start-class. It fits B-class. |
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