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Sorry I didn't get to the requested peer review fast enough. Besides the small number of sources, I think this is within shooting distance though, and that you can make enough fixes and this can stay on the GA nominations for at least a week or so while you do so. It does need a few things:
That's awfully few sources for a good article. More sources help to reach NPOV and improve accuracy if used properly. Try getting something through interlibrary loan if you can.
I have Stone, Irving (1970). There was light: Autobiography of a university: Berkeley, 1868-1968. Garden City, New York: Doubleday & Company, Inc. pp. 107–20. on order from the library and have begun to cite it using Google snippets.
WilliamKF (
talk)
20:39, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
The lead section is too short per
WP:LEAD it should be 2-3 paragraphs that properly summarize the most important information from the rest of the article.
The 120 inch section gives too much history not related to Mayall, it's hard to even see how he is important enough in the telescope to warrant that being a section in his biography. If indeed he is, the section should be refactored to make that clear and his role in it should be the focus of the section.
The first paragraph of the Postwar section refers to "the Crossley", but we don't really know what it is. Presumably it is the
Crossley Reflector linked in the next paragraph, but the context should be where the term is first used and where it is re-used prominently in the first use in a section.
Now it specifies what Crossley, but doesn't give any more context. Also the beginning of the next paragraph is redundant with the first and they need some narrative arc to make the section work together cohesively. -
TaxmanTalk22:02, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
What's there is good, but it's just not enough references to ensure verifiability and NPOV. Generally even B class articles have substantially more references and I don't think it's fair to keep it on hold for longer. Also I had assumed there was some other person named Nicholas Mayall and that's why this article name has the middle initial in it, but when I checked there wasn't.
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people) generally calls for just first and last, so the article should probably be moved to
Nicholas Mayall. -
TaxmanTalk12:09, 5 October 2009 (UTC)reply
No worries. Some people just get uptight if GA noms stay on hold for very long. See what other high quality sources you can find and use the one you have on the way and then see where that gets you. -
TaxmanTalk13:51, 7 October 2009 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Peer Review - October 2009
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This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because I'd like it to be either a Good Article or a Featured Article, whichever is thought to be more appropriate.
For instance, I do not understand what glass disk in Pasadena that was planned to test the 200-inch (5.1 m) Palomar mirror means.
The cite states: In Pasadena he had seen the 120-inch glass disk originally intended for testing the 200-inch Palomar mirror, then nearly finished in the Caltech optical shop. So I believe it means that the glass was used to test the shape of the mirror.
WilliamKF (
talk)
14:31, 26 October 2009 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Featured Article Review - November 2009
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
Support on 2c. Comment, noting there are no problems with 1c but, I'm not qualified to support science biography on 1c terms. 04:06, 23 November 2009 (UTC) Citing the other Encyclopedia.Fifelfoo (
talk)
00:26, 23 November 2009 (UTC)reply
1c all problems resolved with 1c 04:06, 23 November 2009 (UTC):
Surely we can do better than to cite facts to " a b Encyclopædia Britannica 2009". Tertiaries by non-specialists aren't highest quality sources.
Fifelfoo (
talk)
04:08, 20 November 2009 (UTC)reply
There are multiple alternative cites for the two Britannica cites, so I don't think this is an issue. Plus, earlier reviewers requested more cites be added, hence that was one which was added.
WilliamKF (
talk)
19:53, 21 November 2009 (UTC)reply
I am really quite unhappy about this. Dog doesn't eat dog, and your reviewers may have been correct in their time about the density of citations, but citing the Other Encyclopedia is bad form in a Featured Article. Also, its not authored by a specialist so its not HQRS.
Fifelfoo (
talk)
00:26, 23 November 2009 (UTC)reply
All images have
alt text. I think the alts are excellent, except for the third one (would it be obvious from seeing the image alone that the large yellow structure is a telescope? See
WP:ALT#Verifiability).
Purpose of "It is a historically significant photo of a famous individual" is not a purpose, but a description. A rationale should explain why the image is necessary (its purpose) and be specific and detailed (NFCC#10C and WP:FURG).
Эlcobbolatalk15:02, 1 December 2009 (UTC)reply
Purpose now reads Its inclusion in the article adds significantly to the article because the article is about the subject of the photo and has no other pictures of this individual included. If this is not sufficient, I would appreciate more direction, or better yet, another to edit the purpose further. The fair-use seems self evident to me.
WilliamKF (
talk)
01:41, 2 December 2009 (UTC)reply
It's still not there. What you're trying to accomplish is to articulate to the reader what understanding the image is intended to convey. You say "Its inclusion in the article adds significantly", but not why that is the case ("because the article is about the subject of the photo and has no other pictures of this individual included" is a non-sequitur; it discusses the article, not the image). The "Purpose writing" section of
this dispatch may be helpful. Typically images depicting deceased individuals in this manner (infobox) have purposes generally summarized as "to facilitate identification of a notable individual". (i.e. Why is the image being included? So the reader can visually identify the subject.)
Эlcobbolatalk13:58, 2 December 2009 (UTC)reply
I've updated it again to now read: "This image depicts the appearance of Nicholas Mayall. His appearance is used in this article to facilitate identification of Mayall by the reader. Mayall is a notable deceased individual with few known photographs, none of which are known to be free sources." Please assist directly if this is not sufficient as you seem to have a clear idea of what is needed here. Thanks.
WilliamKF (
talk)
23:17, 2 December 2009 (UTC)reply
That's sufficient. I was not in a position to write the purpose as I didn't upload or insert the image and, therefore, had no knowledge of its intended purpose. I commented on the typical purpose I see for such images and what was presumably the case here, but you may well have been going for something completely different. The Iwo Jima flag example in that dispatch, for instance, demonstrates how one image can have any number of purposes.
Эlcobbolatalk23:29, 2 December 2009 (UTC)reply
I disagree that it is purely decorative. It adds a photo of Mayall later in life and shows him at the telescope named in his honor, seems appropriate to me.
WilliamKF (
talk)
20:00, 21 November 2009 (UTC)reply
How is his appearance later in life relevant to the reader's understanding of the man? If seeing the telescope is important, as a device
still in existence, a free alternative could be created (NFCC#1). The telescope may well have been meaningful to Mayall, but the threshold is a significant contribution to a reader's understanding (NFCC#8). What understanding of either Mayall or the telescope is conveyed? (Purpose of "It is a historically significant photo of a famous individual" is identical to the above image. NFCC#3A requires minimal use; why would two images be needed to depict Mayall?)
Эlcobbolatalk15:02, 1 December 2009 (UTC)reply
My comment wasn't phrased well. The author field should be updated to avoid confusion. When articles are compiled (for example, hitting the "Download as PDF"), the information from this line is fetched for the credit appendix. As is, Walker will be credited only as the uploader, as the summary line does not carry over.
Эlcobbolatalk15:02, 1 December 2009 (UTC)reply
Looks good. For future reference, at FAC, practice is to let the person bringing up the concern strike it when they feel it is resolved.
Ealdgyth -
Talk16:23, 24 November 2009 (UTC)reply
Support. I have already seen the article when it was going through the peer review. I think it is a comprehensive and well sourced. After a copy-edit that I recommended the quality of prose also improved considerably. The only suggestion that I have now is to expand the lead. At 1.5 paragraphs it seems to be rather short.
Ruslik_
Zero18:56, 28 November 2009 (UTC)reply
Oppose. I don't think the prose is adequate to meet the FA standard. A few examples:
"Mayall hoped to join the Mount Wilson team upon getting his doctoral, ...". Should be "doctorate", and "getting" is too informal.
"... the only time in his adult life that he resided other than in California and Arizona". California or Arizona.
"Mayall and other young faculty at Lick thought that older Moore and Wright were too complacent with the small telescopes and should have tried harder to attain a larger reflector." Very strangely written. Complacent with? Should that be "obtain" instead of "attain"?
"Unbeknownst to Mayall ...". What kind of a ten dollar word is "unbeknownst"?
If there isn't a rule against using templates like {{convert}} in section titles then there damn well ought to be.
This prohibited him from observing small color changes ...". It didn't prohibit him, it prevented him.
"... found the Milky Way had about one half the mass as previously thought." Why "as previously thought"?
"... argued to Sproul". I've never seen argue used in that way before; usually one argues with, or about, not to.
"Doing most of their work by letter, Mayall began by convincing the others ...". So Mayall was doing most of the committee's work?
"Surviving Mayall were his widow, Kathleen Boxall, his wife for 58 years." The plural "were" implies that he left behind an unnamed widow plus a wife of 58 years.
I think the whole article needs looking at, as there are innumerable other examples. From the lead, for instance: "Mayall also spent 11 years as director of the Kitt Peak National Observatory, where he shepherded it and the Cerro Tololo Inter-American Observatory into top research observatories". I'm really not sure what this is trying to say, but whatever it is it's being said rather awkwardly. --
MalleusFatuorum17:22, 8 December 2009 (UTC)reply
Tony1's offered some good general advice, which is to look at similar FAs and try to persuade their editors to help out. You've written a good, informative account of Mayall's life and work, but you can't be expected to do everything. :-) --
MalleusFatuorum23:10, 8 December 2009 (UTC)reply
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Good Article Review - October 2010
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Summary: This is a well-written article which is close to meeting the GA criteria. I have some issues which need addressing, and all but one should be quick and easy to fix.
The prose is generally good, but much of the early material is unclear to anyone who doesn't know the ins and outs of the American education system. I've fixed some items with links, and dropped a bunch of {{what}} tags at places that need clarification. e.g. 'mid terms' should mention that these are exams. I fixed all the instances of
WP:WTA I found. References should go before Bibliography, per
WP:LAYOUT. wait, that's a list of works. I'll rename the section accordingly.
Coverage is mostly fine for GA. I suggest adding his discovery of globular clusters around M31, which is widely cited
[2]. It would be nice to expand the KPNO section, and the previous section on research on Lick to a lesser extent, but they're fine for GA.
Add Mayall II discovery. I have not found much material on the KPNO nor research on Lick other than what is already present. If you can refer me to any other sources, I'd love to use them to expand these sections, but there doesn't seem to be much out there on these.
WilliamKF (
talk)
03:26, 11 October 2010 (UTC)reply
Images mostly seem fine, with appropriate sources and a fair-use rationale for the single image that requires it.
File:HST G1 (Mayall II).jpg needs to include the credit line given on the Hubble site ('Michael Rich, Kenneth Mighell, and James D. Neill (Columbia University), and Wendy Freedman (Carnegie Observatories) and NASA'). It would be nice to have more images, but fine for GA.
Are Sigma Xi and Phi Beta Kappa really 'awards'? Could these not be incorporated into the prose at the relevant point when he joined them?
In addition to the above, I have one major concern: the article, and in particular the
first version, is extremely similar to the
Osterbrock article. So similar in fact that my first impression was that it had simply been copy-pasted and then rephrased to avoid anyone spotting the copyright infringement. I'm amazed that no-one has noticed this before (which makes me wonder whether anyone else actually checked the sources). Is there some explanation for this?
Modest Geniustalk17:51, 9 October 2010 (UTC)reply
The Osterbrock article was the first source used to create this article and it has always been widely cited to account for that, it was not copied, but used as a reference, and originally as the only reference. Over time additional sources have been located and used to expand the article further.
WilliamKF (
talk)
03:31, 11 October 2010 (UTC)reply
Hmm, I'm still not happy, because copyright subsists not just in the exact words used but the sequence of presentation etc. However, I'm no expert on this, and everything else meets the GA requirements. I'm going to list this as GA, but in future don't go following sources quite that closely (and don't be surprised if someone else picks up on this in the future).
Modest Geniustalk16:26, 17 October 2010 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.