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Please remove picture, pure fantasy, not historical. 132.230.118.123 15:24, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I second that, please remove this picture as it is not historical whatsoever.
I've removed what sounds like a rather salacious chapter out of 1001 Arabian Nights. If the story is true, it should be presented in a much more professional manner. I understood that it was political intrigue that doomed bin Qasim and not the chastity of some captured princesses... Elijahmeeks 18:46, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
The two princesses of the King Dahirsen (Raja Dabir) who were captured by Qasim were sent to the Khilafa (Caliph) as a gift (spoils of war) with a message that they were royal virgins, meant for the Caliph himself. But these princesses outsmarted the Caliph. They tore apart their hymen with their own hands and told the caliph that their modesty had already been violated by Qasim. The Caliph did not believe them, but when he saw for himself the ruptured hymens, he was convinced that Qasim had violated the modesty of the princesses and then sent them over to him. The thought so enraged him that he summoned Qasim to present himself at Baghdad. With Qasim in chains, the Caliph accused him of betrayal. Although Qasim pleaded his innocence, the Caliph, asked for Qasim to be locked in a barrel with nails stuck on the inside and had him rolled down a hill. Qasim died a cruel death.
Sorry my bad that was Mohamed Ghori, who captured the Rajput Queen, Bin-Qasim was more tolerant. Although the comments about them tearing their Hymen seem far-fetched. -- Street Scholar 11:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
There are two accounts of his death, one is in the chach nama, aka the bollywood one the other who knows so it is marked uncited. Even if it is only a legend it deserves mention.-- Tigeroo 07:32, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
The reason why I listed the sources here is, for the reason that the article has been edited many times and biased information has been inserted into it and I see this as a major problem especially when the information is Anti-Semitic and Islamaphobic in nature.
My REFERENCES: 1. The Wonder that was India, By A.L. Bhasham 2. The peoples of Pakistan, By Yu. V. Gankovsky 3. Arab-o-Hind ke Talluqat, By Sulaiman Nadvi. 4. The Gazetteer of Pakistan: The Province of Sind, edited by T.H. Sorly 5. Gazetteer of the Province of Sind, compiled by E.H. Aitkin 6. Ancient Trade in Pakistan, By Sir Mortimer Wheeler, Pakistan Quarterly, Vol VII #1957 7. Sindhj Culture, By U.T. Thakkur. 8. Tareekh-Sind, By Manlana Syed Abu Zafar Nadvi. 9. An Advanced History of India, Part II, By R.C. Majumdar, H.C. Roychandra and Kalikinkar Ditta 10. The Land of five rivers and Sind, By David Ross 11. Arab~o-Hind ke Tallukat, By Suiaiman Nadvi; 12. Tareekh-e-Sind, Part I, By Ijaaul Haq Quddusi. 13. Dr. Mohammad Ishaque in Journal of Pakistan Historical Society Vol 3 Part1 14. A Study of History, Vol VII, By Arnold Toynbee. 15. Ibid. 16. Sind: A General Introduction, By M.T. Lambrick. 17. A greater portion of the area now called Baluchistan was then known as Makran. The word Baluchistan came into vogue much later. 18. Journal of Pakistan, Historical Society, Vol.111, Part 1 19. Tauzeehat-e-Tareekh-e-Masoomi. 20. Muslim Community of the Indo-Pakistan subcontinent, by Dr. I.H Qureshi 21. Tareekh-e-Sind, Part 1, by Aijazul Haq Quddusi 22. The Making of India, By Dr. Abdulla Yusuf Ali. 23. Jaunat-us-Sind, By Maulai Shaidai. 24. Imperial Gazetteer of India. 25. Ibid. 26. Indian Muslims, By Prof. M. Mujeeb. 27. Tareekh-e-Sind, Part 1, By Aijazul Haq Quddusi. 28. The preaching of Islam by Sir Thomas Arnold 29. Shias of India, By John Norman Hollister. 30. Ibid. 31. Arab-o-Hind ke Tallukat, By Syed Sulaiman Nadvi 32. Sindhi Culture, By U.T. Thakut. 33. Tareekh-e-Sind, By Maulana Abu Zafar Nadvi. 34. The Peoples of Pakistan, By. Yu. V. Gankovsky. 35. Arab-o-Hind ke Tallukat, By Syed Sulairnan Nadvi.
--
Street Scholar 12:40, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
You did conveniently left out information on the massacres of Hindus and non-Muslims alike in this article, all due to your pro-Islam bias. -- Dangerous-Boy 06:14, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
There was no massacre which bit of that don't you guys understand. Look at my sources, where I got the information from I challenge anyone from wiki to bring non-biased information about massacres committed by bin-qasim. This is so illogical its not even worth discussion, Bin Qasim had non Muslim the Jatt of the time join forces with him to over throw their oppressor leaders and the Jatt at the time were yes you guessed it non-Muslim. So how can the Hindu claim of Bin Qasim of a mass murderer be correct, Hindus relay of mythological texts, look at the Vedas they are based on mythological text to. I can tell you this no that there was no massacre of non Muslim, the only killing that had taken place was on the battle field, and then he was fighting against an army. He only had 6,000 Syrian tribes men. It was the non Muslims who helped him conquer the region. So please get your facts straight before you make ludicrous claims that there was a genocide going on.
-- Street Scholar 11:45, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
" Qasim demolished many temples, shattered "idolatorous" artwork and killed many people in his battles. After the violence, he attempted to establish law and order in the newly-conquered territory through the imposition of Islamic Shariah laws. He also sought control through systematic persecution of Hindus. Qasim wrote an account of such experiences:
O my cousin; I received your life inspiring letter. I was much pleased and overjoyed when it reached me. The events were recounted in an excellent and beautiful style, and I learnt that the ways and rules you follow are conformable to the Law. Except that you give protection to all, great and small alike, and make no difference between enemy and friend. God says, 'Give no quarter to Infidels, but cut their throats." "Then know that this is the command of the great God. You should not be too ready to grant protection, because it will prolong your work. After this, give no quarter to any enemy except to those who are of rank. This is a worthy resolve, and want of dignity will not be imputed to you. Peace be with you. [1] "
Until I see some historical records of references from books, I am removing this quote as it seems like bullshit. Firstly lets look at this in context who was Bin-Qasim writing this letter to? which cousin? there are no documents or suggestions that this was actually said. Also about Hindu temples being 'shattered' also has no reference. Not even in India today, many people have been an killed and died a result of this. Hindu terrorists had attacked Muslims/Sikhs and other minorities many times on such false claims. There is not even one shred of evidence to suggest Hindu temples were destroyed. Dangerous-boy, is clearly putting false information into the article. Like this quote, the article is about bin qasim not so random Hindu mythological massacre.
-- Street Scholar 18:03, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Oh please stop it, their was no such thing going on. Although I don't deny there may have been some secluded incidents I couldn't say. However, on the whole everyone was treated pretty fairly. If it wasn't for the Arabs and Muslims India wouldn't be what it is today. It's funny how the ones that messed up India hardly ever get a mention i.e the British. By the way dude, most Pakistanis are direct decenints of these Arabs. Most Punjabi Pakistans are Aryan, and
Ottoman decentens, and other majorites are
Pashtuns.
-- Street Scholar 13:36, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
I see you like looking at guys, so are you the local Hindu gay around your block?
side note: Well Hindu girls seem to like my nose as seen as though I've humped a few an I am dating one now.
-- Street Scholar 11:29, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
side note: you could be humping pigs for all I know. I couldn't care what you do with your life.
-- Dangerous-Boy 23:48, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
I see you're not only racist you're also anti-Semitic and xenophobic - Anything else I missed out?
-- Street Scholar 20:11, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
I like Jews. They're cool. -- Dangerous-Boy 01:16, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
Some information in this article was deleted by Street Scholar ( talk · contribs), who has also done pov-warring/deletions in other articles. The information in this article should if possible be sourced with primary sources (i.e. especially the medieval muslim chronicles). The source of the bin Qasim quotation is The Chachnamah (Chachnama). English translation by Mirza Kalichbeg Fredunbeg. Delhi Reprint, 1979. This originally arab work was translated into Persian, and later into English.
Information deleted: After the violence Qasim attempted to establish law and order in the newly-conquered territory by allowing a degree of religious tolerance. He was countermanded by Hajjaj who insisted on a more hardline policy. As a whole, populations of conquered territories were treated as people of the book and granted religious toleration of Hindu religion in return for payment of the poll tax ( jizya). Brahmin caste system was tolerated and no conversion of conquered populations was attempted. [2] Qasim demolished many temples, shattered "idolatorous" artwork and killed many people in his battles. After the violence, he attempted to establish law and order in the newly-conquered territory through the imposition of Islamic Shariah laws. He also sought control through systematic persecution of Hindus. Qasim wrote an account of such experiences:
Culturally native populations of conquered territories under Qasim underwent a great deal of hardship and struggle for their refusal to convert to Islam. Heavy taxes known as Jizya were imposed upon the non-muslims, and the conversion of conquered populations occurred on a large scale. Bin Qasim was successful, rapidly taking all of Sindh and moving into southern Punjab up to Multan. The forces of Muhammad bin Qasim defeated Raja Dahar, and took his daughters captive (they were sent to Damascus). On his arrival at the town of Brahminabad between 6,000 and 16,000 men died in the battle that ensued. -- Kefalonia 12:29, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
Pure bullshit, is your job devoted to spreading ignorance on the net?
Anyway, hardly anyone takes Wikipedia seriously. And now I know why, because of Idiots like you, who try to rewrite history, you nothing but an Internet warrior. Dude seriously next time type something useful rather then just randomly dancing your finger over the keyboard. The Greeks used to do this back in the day talk shit all day to people who didn't have a clue, trying to make themselves look smart. Your stuff is played out dude.
You make me laugh>
INFINITY FOUNDATION Owned by a Hindu Called Anjani Gharpure.
So dude, don't try to pull a fast one here. He is anti-Muslim, and you are getting information from his website and claiming it to be factual looooooooooool.
Oh and here are my sources and I'm going to edit the article back to what it was based on hindu and Muslim sources:
1. The Wonder that was India, By A.L. Bhasham 2. The peoples of Pakistan, By Yu. V. Gankovsky 3. Arab-o-Hind ke Talluqat, By Sulaiman Nadvi. 4. The Gazetteer of Pakistan: The Province of Sind, edited by T.H. Sorly 5. Gazetteer of the Province of Sind, compiled by E.H. Aitkin 6. Ancient Trade in Pakistan, By Sir Mortimer Wheeler, Pakistan Quarterly, Vol VII #1957 7. Sindhj Culture, By U.T. Thakkur. 8. Tareekh-Sind, By Manlana Syed Abu Zafar Nadvi. 9. An Advanced History of India, Part II, By R.C. Majumdar, H.C. Roychandra and Kalikinkar Ditta 10. The Land of five rivers and Sind, By David Ross 11. Arab~o-Hind ke Tallukat, By Suiaiman Nadvi; 12. Tareekh-e-Sind, Part I, By Ijaaul Haq Quddusi. 13. Dr. Mohammad Ishaque in Journal of Pakistan Historical Society Vol 3 Part1 14. A Study of History, Vol VII, By Arnold Toynbee. 15. Ibid. 16. Sind: A General Introduction, By M.T. Lambrick. 17. A greater portion of the area now called Baluchistan was then known as Makran. The word Baluchistan came into vogue much later. 18. Journal of Pakistan, Historical Society, Vol.111, Part 1 19. Tauzeehat-e-Tareekh-e-Masoomi. 20. Muslim Community of the Indo-Pakistan subcontinent, by Dr. I.H Qureshi 21. Tareekh-e-Sind, Part 1, by Aijazul Haq Quddusi 22. The Making of India, By Dr. Abdulla Yusuf Ali. 23. Jaunat-us-Sind, By Maulai Shaidai. 24. Imperial Gazetteer of India. 25. Ibid. 26. Indian Muslims, By Prof. M. Mujeeb. 27. Tareekh-e-Sind, Part 1, By Aijazul Haq Quddusi. 28. The preaching of Islam by Sir Thomas Arnold 29. Shias of India, By John Norman Hollister. 30. Ibid. 31. Arab-o-Hind ke Tallukat, By Syed Sulaiman Nadvi 32. Sindhi Culture, By U.T. Thakut. 33. Tareekh-e-Sind, By Maulana Abu Zafar Nadvi. 34. The Peoples of Pakistan, By. Yu. V. Gankovsky. 35. Arab-o-Hind ke Tallukat, By Syed Sulairnan Nadvi.
-- Street Scholar 19:59, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
Can the users stop putting in fakes quotes. And especially copy-and-pasting from infinity foundation, as the source is biased. There is no evidence of Bin-Qasim making any such comments and there is no letter of this type. Its pretty obvious its fake because the letter is not even in full and it never mentioning any dates, and there are no records of this letter anywhere. —the preceding unsigned comment is by Street Scholar ( talk • contribs)
There is not such thing as the Chach-nama. This is another made up Hindu thing. I think the mythological teachings on Hinduism are starting to have effect on you. I suppose its the racist-caste system that makes you an Islamocfobic and a Anti-Semitic?
-- Street Scholar 12:27, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
No its not, you are lying prove it or I'm removing the quote!
--
Street Scholar 14:22, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
I already said it is in the Chach-Nama! You haven't read the Chach-Nama and some days ago you didn't even knew it existed. You'll have to read the Chach-Nama yourself, I can't do this for you. I have looked up the letter in the Chach-Nama and verified that the letter is correct. The whole Chach-Nama may not be online, but extracts (including the letter) are online (like here [11]). And here is a reference:
Kefalonia 17:45, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
We are building the Project from a global perspective for use across the world, and not from the point pf view of any particular region or nation. Accordingly, contents of historical stubs and pages should reflect the aspiration of wikipedians to build a truly global encyclopedia. -- Bhadani 15:31, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
http://persian.packhum.org/persian/pf?file=12701030&ct=18
But it was used to cite the activities of Dahir, which is a failed verification. Hkelkar 09:56, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I've tried to clean up the language and flow of the article, and move as much as I could of the disputed material to the Controversy section so that it can be sorted out. Naturally, there is still a bit that has may be seen as non-NPOV in the Administration section, but I'm not anything close to an expert on this and am only looking at it from a readability perspective. Elijahmeeks 17:02, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Here:
Stanley Lane-Poole, Medieval India under Mohammedan Rule, 712-1764, G.P. Putnam's Sons. New York, 1970. p. 9-10
The ref seems to only show that the Jats and Meds supported bin-Qasim. However, the article says that Buddhists and Bhuttos also supported him, which is not in the sentence cited from the article. I will get the book from the library in 1-2 days to verify the claims made. Until then, let the tag stand. Hkelkar 10:06, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
"Wait this might also be "dubious" and wait this needs a 'citation'"
This is all Hkelkar, goes around going. I have no bias with respect to these articles as I am a white Anglo-Saxon Christian. However there is a serious problem, Hkelkar is deliberately removing information which seem to protect a negative-image of Hindus who followed the Caste-System I particularly know of the oppression the Jatts and other Buddhist sub-tribes where put under by those who followed the caste-system, so there is actually no surprise at many non-Hindu Jatt sub-tribes made an alliance with Arab. However the invasion of Sind happened for the reason that pirates controlled by Raja Dhinar (Hindu King) were Reading Arabian shipping in-fact in the Chach-Nama this clearly stated as a letter was sent to the Hindu King he refused to comply which subsequently led to the invasion. I highly doubt Hkelkar, has read the Chah-Nama for the reason that he is asking some questions which are clearly listed in the Chah-Nama, such as why the Buddhist and Hindus were classed as "people of the book" - the reason was Bin Qasim's head was in the line he was being ordered to come back to Baghdad it was Bin Qasim's commander who was opposed to his lenient stance. -- James Wanten 12:21, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
"bin-Qasim was the greatest thing since sliced falafel whooptee-doo and the soulless infidel Raja Dahir was a stinking heap of camel dung, praise be to God the merciful and compassionate the all-powerful-and-the-all-forgiving etc.etc.[ref]Chach Nama section winkiwonki pg 932 [/ref]".
needs to be replaced by:
"According to the Saracean history book Chach Nama(brief description), bin-Qasim was 'the greatest thing since sliced falafel'[ref]Chach Nama section winkiwonki pg 932[/ref]"
Do you understand my point?As always, I am grateful that moderate voices and cool heads may prevail. Hkelkar 21:35, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Actually, there is a problem with this article. I will have to re-edit it, as there is obviously non neutral sources used for the accounts, the books quoted are naturally accepted to be non-scholarly and anti-Muslim. Also a note to Hkelkar if you continue to go around adding "dubious" tags to clearly referenced points I will have to take action against you.
Ok, I don't know much about the Cheema. My major concern is the mention of the Conversion by Sword Theory. To some extent, the material I included was a bit off-topic. But the theory isn't. There are considerable evidences, though disputed, that bin-Qasim did destroy a lot of Hindu temples, enslaved Hindus and forced several Hindu and Buddhists kings to follow Islam. The mentioning of bin-Qasim's alleged attrocities on Hindus is important. All this article speaks about is the positives and achievements of bin-Qasim. -- Incman| वार्ता 19:05, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Keep in mind that bin Qasim didn't last very long. While it's important to include both sides, the larger story of Islam in South Asia should exist in a seperate article, as it does. Elijahmeeks 21:45, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Exactly, characterizations are a personal attack and you will be punished accordingly. Hkelkar 00:14, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Hkelkar, stop this behavior, there is nothing wrong with what
TerryJ-Ho has said to you, its pretty clear you keep and adding {{dubious}} tags for no apparent reason other then that the information which is presented you don't like. It was you who added
Jatts and claimed they are "lower castes" which is so silly its beyond belief. The good and bad should be listed of both parties, Mohamed Bin Qasim was hardly a great representative of Islam, and same goes for oppressive Hindu kings they were hardly the greatest representatives of Hinduism. --
Street Scholar 11:58, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Unlike, you I have a life outside of wiki hence why I have not got back to Che I will do when I have the time. -- Street Scholar 12:04, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Don't add lower caste, when Jatts are clearly not a lower caste. And even so adding "lower" caste is offensive. It should be noted the Jatts were considered lower caste by the ruling Bahamian Hindus who were oppressing the Jatt sub-tribes such as the Cheemas who were at one time considered noble Kshatriyas at one point by the Bahamian Hindus. The only reason why the Bahamians (kings) started calling them offensive terms was for the fact that some Jatt sub-tribes don't participate in Bahamian rituals for the reason that they were followers of Buddhism.
Furthermore, for instance, the Jatts are decadents of the sakas who are of the indi-scything stock, which makes them indo-Aryans. The way the Hindu caste system is set up the Jatts can never be considered low-caste as Aryans are the highest caste you can get in the Hindu caste system. So claiming Jatts as a lower caste (who in fact are a race) is historically and factually wrong. Street Scholar 11:46, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Are ancient
Sanskrit scriptures real sources? is the
Mahabharata,
Manusmiriti,
Bhagavad Gita etc. Real sources?
Some drink from the fountain of knowlage and others just gargle, your ignorance is encyclopedic. --
Street Scholar 12:10, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
I can understand what you're saying, however if Hindus in their scriptures are calling Jatt sub-tribes demons then this is a fact. Also the Mahabharata, is an account of epic ancient Hindu battles. Furthermore, sub-tribes from the Jatt clans have been classed as being noble Kshatriyas (such as the Cheema tribe) but later after converting to Buddhism, from Hinduism have been called as all sorts of offensive terms degraded in rank, and oppressed by ruling Bahamian Hindu kings. Many of the sub-tribes of the jatts such as the Cheema tribe suffered this oppression as they did not believe in the philosophy of fighting even though they were great warriors praised by Alexander the Great and later by Bahamian Hindus (in the Mahabharata who later faced them in battles) here are some topics you can start reading to get a better understanding of what I am talking about.
-- Street Scholar 10:10, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I can't say anything about the Cheema in particular but they were not the only Jatt tribe and the restrictions imposed upon them were classic " shudra"esque as described by Andre Wink, so socially they ended up in that role in the society, as lower castes.-- Tigeroo 07:37, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
“ | ” |
“ | When Muhammad Kasim invaded Sind in 711 AD, Buddhism had no resistance to offer to their fire and steel. The rosary could not be a match for the sword and the terms Lov and Peace had no meaning to them. The carried fire and sword wherever they went and obliterated all that came their way.Muhammad triumphantly marched into the country, conquering Debal etc. one after the other in quick succession, and in less than a year and half, the far-flung Hindu kingdon was crushed, the great civilization fell back and Sind entered the darkest period of it's history. | ” |
“ | There was a fearful outbreak of religious bigotry in several places and temples were wantonly desecrated. AT Debal, Nairun and Aror temples were demolished and converted into mosques.(Resistors) were put to death and women made captives.The Jizya was exacted with special care.(Hindus) were requird to feed Muslim travellers for three days and three nights. | ” |
“ | The Arabs left no legacy behind except a few colonies and a few families as the memorial of their conquest. They had no constitutional doctrine (implying that the natives did),no higher culture (author takes position that pre-Islamic Sind was culturally superior), and no superior art or language. | ” |
There is more on p16 qbout forced conversions and other atrocities inflicted on Hindus. Hkelkar 18:19, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
More evidence: Further evidence lies in this statement made on "Jinnah, Pakistan and Islamic Identity: The Search for Saladin by Akbar S Ahmed":
“ | It [Muslim exclusivism] was inherent from the time the first Muslims arrived in the subcontinent-fromt the eighth century, when Muhammad bin-Qasim threatened to usher in a new order challenging the Hindu customs, norms and beliefs | ” |
This is certainly an indication that it was an intentional persecution rather than just a territorial invasion.
In "Eight Lives:A Study of the Hindu-Muslim Encounter by R. Gandhi", it is stated on Page 3 that bin-Qasim regarded Hindus as "inferior infidels" and were treated accordingly. he goes into detail (get the book).
These points cited by many historians is not referenced at all.
Other issues are:
Partisanship and extremism of the following sources:
Hkelkar 18:23, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Then present both perspectives.I have no problem with that.However, we cannot take a position on either point and list both points of view dispassionately.This has not happened. Hkelkar 15:49, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
those who are about to read further need to have a healthy heart because you can't bear to witness the masacre, the mayhem and the carnage also known as tigeroo (who are you). wikipedia need to get this act sorted once for all. 202.142.190.245 ( talk) —Preceding comment was added at 13:33, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
"Muhammad bin Qasim (Arabic محمد بن قاسم ) (c. 695–715) was an Arab general who conquered Sindh and Punjab regions along the Indus river (currently a part of Pakistan). The conquest of Sindh and Punjab started the Islamic era in the South Asia." !!!!
I thought it was the arab merchents who first brought Islam to South Asia at the malabar cost of kerala in 6th century. The earliest known muslim communities in India are Mappilas. (means son-in-law) in local language. Also I thought till about 13th century AD the Muslim sultanates in Delhi had no clue of the existance of Muslim enclaves on Malabar cost and and Coromandel in general!! Pratheepps 10:13, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I believe it was the Sufis. Armyrifle 22:06, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Please...No Firishta Please...I don't remember the context or the author but it aptly suits him...I would watch an episode of Star Trek for a dose of sanity...Firishta's neutrality is comparable to the Nazi neutrality before the second world war. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.195.132.198 ( talk) 19:27, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
A simple instance...Vijayanagar empire fielded an army of about 1 million, the muslims could muster only around 300000, they were hard pressed in the battle and were at the verge of collapse when they spotter the Vijayanagar commander Aliya Rama Raya distributing gifts to the valiant in the battlefield, concentrated their might at him, captured and beheaded him. His head was in display in Ahmednagar till 1829. The major point to note that Vijayanagar lost the battle in 3 hours. Is that possible? The commander, who according to firishta was above 90 years old, distributing the gold in the battlefield? Leave the possibility, does it look logical? A 90+ old commander, atleast one should note that there should be 100000-2000000 soldiers before him. I don't think even Chenghiz Khan would have vanquished them such fastly, that too when he was at the recieving end. Also, that Vijayanagar was completely crushed. Then how, was the Vanquished Vijayanagar at the gates of Golconda, the capital of one of the five Muslim kingdoms? Firishta conveniently forgets that Vijayanagar lost the war due to treachery by two of their Muslim generals. Treachery is not permissible anywhere!! The vanquished Vijayanagar was the only kingdom to stop Akbar in a battle, not the Muslim confederacy. One of the five kingdoms, Ahmednagar, the best of them fell by then. Different case that that plan was abandoned as Akbar died on the moment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.195.132.198 ( talk) 19:41, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Extract from Triflovic's book:
“ | As far as they (Muslims) were concerned, Hindus were kafirs, heathens, par excellence. They, and to a lesser extent the peaceful Buddhists, were, unlike Christians and Jews, not "of the book" but at the receiving end of Muhammad’s injunction against pagans: "Kill those who join other gods with God wherever you may find them." | ” |
Hkelkar 13:31, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
==ISPI:Dubious Source==-- Tigeroo 01:17, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Extract from Triflovich's book:
“ | Starting in 712 the raiders, commanded by Muhammad Qasim, demolished temples, shattered sculptures, plundered palaces, killed vast numbers of men — it took three whole days to slaughter the inhabitants of the city of Debal — and carried off their women and children to slavery, some of it sexual. After the initial wave of violence, however, Qasim tried to establish law and order in the newly-conquered lands, and to that end he even allowed a degree of religious tolerance. but upon hearing of such humane practices, his superior Hajjaj, objected | ” |
“ | In a subsequent communication, Hajjaj reiterated that all able-bodied men were to be killed, and that their underage sons and daughters were to be imprisoned and retained as hostages. Qasim obeyed, and on his arrival at the town of Brahminabad massacred between 6,000 and 16,000 men. | ” |
Hkelkar 13:28, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
There are numerous neutral sources that I can pull up to show that this was not true, they were not specifically targetted. for example: [14]. The Chach nama which is the primary source of all informatino about Qasim mentions two instances, one the temple at Debal, which was linked with some prophecy or something, and one about a stupa at Nerun otherwise generally Qasim did not bother the sites too much, sure he had scorn towards them and did not hold them with any special regard however he was not a Mahmud of Ghazni to single them out and a different agenda and strategy. He worked hard at diplomacy and building alliances, remember he came in with a skeletal force. The online version of the chach nama is linked if you care to go through it, it's a bit of a tough read. Heres a quote from the chach nama itself: [15]
“ | “I have received my dear cousin Muhammad Kásim's letter, and have become acquainted with its contents. With regard to the request of the chiefs of Brahminábád about the building of Budh temples, and toleration in religious matters, I do not see (when they have done homage to us by placing their heads in the yoke of submission, and have undertaken to pay the fixed tribute for the Khalífah and guaranteed its payment), what further rights we have over them beyond the usual tax. Because after they have become zimmís (protected subjects) we have no right whatever to interfere with their lives or their property. Do, therefore, permit them to build the temples of those they worship. No one is prohibited from or punished for following his own religion, and let no one prevent them from doing so, so that they may live happy in their own homes” | ” |
Historical figures are grey, they are not black and white heroes or villains. Especially generals of the medeival age, war was not pretty back then, POWs were either generally summarily executed or sold into slavery, and even as a terror tactic by making an example of a few to deter others from putting up a fight, no doubt some temples were looted to finance the campaign (the caliph had to repayed his investment in raising the military, was often a buisness transaction back then). I am not saying he didn't do some cold blooded stuff, it's a matter contextualizing the events rather then selective usage. On a side note It is also interesting to note two accounts of what appear to be Sati already in the earliest annals of Muslim contact, in the chach nama. Generally, I would prefer the article to have limited usage of quotes, and the material just be summed up in simpler concise statements, but my experience with wiki articles.-- Tigeroo 14:03, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Another Reliable Source is :
"Fundamentalisms Comprehended"
---edited by R Scott Appleby, Martin E Marty
P292 in which it is clearly stated that while bin-Qasim tried to find middle ground between Hindus and Muslims he hiked the jizya up to 4 times the usual taxes and drove several Hindus to death by starvation or conversion to Islam by intimidation.
He did attain some equilibrium eventually by cooperating with the Brahmins and Shudras but subjugating them to Dhimmitude. Hkelkar 07:41, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
According to most Muslim scholars, Hindus are
kuffar and are idol-worshippers. We can't be considered the
Ahl-ul-Kitaab (People of the Book). The People of the Book are only Jews and Christians, as the Qur'an makes this very clear.
Armyrifle 22:08, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Muslims are the 'People of the Prevailing Book', AlQoraan, the culminating & the last & the final book revealed by God to humanity for all the humanity & prevailing over all the previously revealed books until end of time, while the followers of all the previous revealed books are 'People of the Prevailed Books' & they are considered by God as 'Ahl Al-Fatarat' ( or 'People of the Interval' ) until individually the prevailing message reaches them. Jews (or 'Yahood' {the guided ones}{who so requested Moses to be called by which in their arrogance to defy Gods' Prophet Moses who was a Muslim {the appellation given by Abraham for the followers of God} & Christians (so named by their opponents) ( or 'Nasaraa' { or "Nazaratines" or belonging to the city of Nazareth in Palestine where Jesus (who was Muslim)(Gods' peace be upon him} was born} as named in AlQoraan,(the most relevant)& Sabeens ( the other 'People of the Book' of Noah, Jonah, Enoch, John, who were neither Jews or Christians)(in smaller numbers) are from the Arabian Peninsula, while Magians ( or 'Zoroastrians') are People of the Book in neighboring Persia (now Iran)(whose prophet is not mentioned in AlQoraan nor their book) outside the Arabian Peninsula. Others are not mentioned from the rest of the world, for various reasons: because the names & the stories will be unknown & will not be of interest through whom the message was being directed to the whole humanity or they will be repetitive & have nothing to add to guidance, they will only burden the message with no help towards guidance. Ibn Hazm, the fifth Famous Imam of Islamic Comprehension {or Jurisprudence or Fiqha} of Al-Andalus (or Islamic Spain) has considered Hindus {so named by the early Persians who added 'h' to 'Indus' the river east of Persia flowing in Sind, because of the peculiarity of their language, to the people living around the River Indus up to Burma eastwards}& now confirmed by a contemporary scholar of comparative study of religious books, that their 'Vedas' contain reference to the coming of the Prophet Mohammad & description of his companions & victory of Makkah confirms the revealed nature of their books, so they are to be regarded as 'People of the Book'. The idolatry is an addition not a part of their religion like Makkans fell into idolatry introduced by a visitor to Syria in the 5th century, since introduced after Noah, when the people started making statues for the righteous people but after many generations, the original purpose went out of the living memory without any written record as writing had not been yet invented, instead the reverence turned into worship with the help of Satan. ( ILAKNA ( talk) 19:52, 8 January 2008 (UTC))
the commander of forces which opened the Province of Sind for the Islamic Caliphate, was from the tribe of 'Thaqeef' from Taif, 80 km east of Makkah in Saudi Arbia & not ,as wrongly suggested, from Syria. He was under the command of the Governor of Iraq, & his relative AlHajjaj bin Yusuf AthThaqafi. The reason for sending the forces was that the Muslim pilgrims from the island of Sarandeep (Sri Lanka now) were taken hostage by Raja Dahir of Daebal (near to now Karachi port) & the Ommayad Caliph from Damscus asked his governor in Iraq to send forces to get the pilgrims released. He was just 19 years old when he commanded the forces to Sind. The forces boarded the ships from the Al-Oqair Port (100 km South of Hofuf City), the historical port in the Al-Hasa (now Eastern) Province.( ILAKNA ( talk) 18:43, 8 January 2008 (UTC))
Hanafi fiqh being adopted in the Sind area around 714/715 is total rubbish as Imam Abu Hanifa was born in 699 and Bin Qasim died in 715. So Imam Abu Hanifa was even less then 16 years old when Hanafi school supposedly got adopted in Sind. The school began much later and not when he was a kid. He was still at school getting his Islamic knowledge. Much of the source material is made up like this adoption of Hanfai school.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.202.97.249 ( talk)
I guess so. I also think the admin needs to remove that people of hindu relegion were classified as people of the book. People of the book means people who were given the scriptures like the Torah (Children of Israel) and the Bible (Followers of Christ) before Prophet Mohammed came. It doesn not mean pagans and idol worshippers. We need to put correct info on Wiki so people are not confused. Many Thanks
The islamic scholars majority of them view that the term People of the book applies to jews and christians specifically, but since some of the Zaroastrians are indeed a sect of monotheism. (thus they would be included in people of the book because they are monotheists. However it doesnt apply to idol worshippers/pantheists/pagans.
Three of Tigeroos latest posts are devoted to again deleting my content
Tigeroo your presumption of wikipedia style guru is not only misplaced but stems from your aggressive desire to present a lopsided version . Your use anonymous IP s to vandal delete is also now more than obvious . I have carefully responded to each of your provided reasons for deletion , but I see that you do not care for civilized debate .
I also notice that your original reading is severely limited .. and you entirely rely on anything you can lay your hands on the Internet . I do compliment you on your I T skills at manipulating wikipedia edits skill , however they are no substitution for the truth you are trying to suppress .
Cheers
My posts on Qasim have been deleted by 80.227.40.9
and my posts on Mahmud of Ghazni have been deleted by 80.227.40.9 .
Please stop hounding and deleting my posts if you are 80.227.40.9
cheers Intothefire 09:20, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Anonymous user your indiscriminate vandal additions to this article on sections I have worked on are not appreciated. Do not vandal or you will be reported ? If you wish to edit add participate after registering . Intothefire 18:07, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
17:44, 15 May 2007 Tigeroo (Talk | contribs) (31,383 bytes) (→Destruction of Temples and loot - rm section full of quotes. See Section Controversy for a more damning version. Summarymention should be added to the section Religion on destruction and looting.)
An unwarranted deletion by Tigeroo “ Destruction of Temples and loot”
In the existing article the Chach nama has been referred to as a source on at least 14 instances (see specific instances below ) before I used the Chach nama as a source for quotations. The Chach Nama quotations specifically inform of the desrtuction of temples and loot.
As a matter of fact I have only used exactly the same source for the chachnama already used .
I did not remove the section on the controversy which you allude to ...which was the fair thing to do to provide the balance . Therefore your deletion is a vandal edit .
17:41, 15 May 2007 Tigeroo (Talk | contribs) (36,870 bytes) (→The taking of slaves - rm OR section. See intro sentence. See section Military strategy for tertiary sources for numbers on massacre, method, context, details etc Its all there already.)
The deletion of this entire section( The taking of slaves) by you on the grounds provided by you are completely again unwarranted .
The introduction and the section on Military strategy that you allude to do not convey the information on the extent , prevalence and religiously sanctioned practice of taking slaves Men women and children as plasticized by Qasim .
17:35, 15 May 2007 Tigeroo (Talk | contribs) (41,724 bytes) (→Jazia - rm See section Taxation. Bad style as well, a whole section which is a quote? Same information is provided from secondary sourced assesments more concisely, contextually and completely.)
Tigeroo this a patently vandal deletion of a whole section. The section you have deleted that I have added was on imposition of Jazia . You allude to the section on Taxation….I read this section -it does not mention
Jazia anywhere. As to the bad style you mention, I could paraphrase this.Your misuse of wikipedia style rules is exemplary .
17:29, 15 May 2007 Tigeroo (Talk | contribs) (43,404 bytes) (→Death - The intro sentece to this quote is inappropiate, i.e use of brave. Also too much off-topic space taken up by items that do not provide furth information on Qasim. This is not a story book.)
In deference to Your objection of the word Brave ,this word removed . The issue of the The Khalífah immediately ordering the two kidnapped daughters of Dahir to be buried alive in a wall Is not off Topic .If the Qotation already in the article also taken from the Chachnama that “He also sent some beautiful pearls and valuable jewels, as well as some Abyssinian male and female slaves, some pretty presents, and unparalleled rarities to the capital of the Khalífah.” relevant and considered appropriate then certainly and similarly if the issue of the Arab women being taken prisoner by pirates is relevant , why do you feel the kidnapping of two daughters of Dahir and being sent as sex slaves and buried alive for not being virgins . Your comment That this is not a story book is therefore extraneous .
17:24, 15 May 2007 Tigeroo (Talk | contribs) (43,859 bytes) (→Death - This quotation unnecessary and the account summarized. The source added link has kept for informative purpose. Note the tertiary source assesment by Keay is considered superior.)
Tigeroo :You deleted my edits saying say Keay is considered superior to the Chach-Nama,take a look at the 16 ref to the chachnama already in the article (not put by me ).Therefore your demotion of the chachnama as a source in this case is unfounded and inconsistent .Take a look at the quotes in the article
Next the summary provided does not do justice to the source it is taken from.
Chach Nama as a source referred to in the article
1)The primary source of his historiography comes from the Chach Nama. 2) According to the Chach Nama, the expedition against Raja Dahir was in response to a raid by pirates off the coast of Debal, who captured a ship 3) Campaign as recounted in the Chach-Nama 4) Qasim's forces then marched upon Raor and took it, where it is noted in the Chach Nama that Dahir's wife Bai and some others committed Jauhar. 5) Sulh appeared to be Qasims preferred mode of conquest, accounting for between 63-65% of the towns and tribes recorded by Baladhuri or the Chachnama. 6) The Chachnama records the following as the political strategy advised by Hajjaj to Qasim
Continued in next post Intothefire 14:28, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
7) the use of overawing force, power, strength and majesty in checking and expelling the enemy.
and The Chach-Nama. English translation by Mirza Kalichbeg Fredunbeg
8) The role played by the belief in prophecy; both of Muslim success, and Dahir's marriage (unconsummated) to his sister which alienated him from others. ref The Chach-Nama. English translation by Mirza Kalichbeg Fredunbeg
9) The “
Chach-Nama” notes the following as highlights of Qasim’s rule
10) even if they worshipped stocks and stones.ref name="Mirza"> The Chach-Nama. English translation by Mirza Kalichbeg Fredunbeg.
11) so that they may live happy in their own homes”" [
http://persian.packhum.org/persian/pf?file=12701030&ct=42 The Chach-Nama. English translation by Mirza Kalichbeg Fredunbeg.
13) , I confirm you in your previous posts. The management of all the affairs of State, and its administration, I leave in your able hands, and this (right) I grant (also) to your children and descendants hereditarily, and you need fear no alteration or cancellation of the order thus issued.”" [
http://persian.packhum.org/persian/pf?file=12701030&ct=42 The Chach-Nama. English translation by Mirza Kalichbeg Fredunbeg. Delhi Reprint, 1979.
14) . He assisted Muhammad ibn Qasim in all of his undertakings..."</ref> Dahir's prime minister and various chieftains were also incorporated into the administration.refThe Chach-Nama. English translation by Mirza Kalichbeg Fredunbeg. Delhi Reprint, 1979
17:49, 15 May 2007 Tigeroo (Talk | contribs) (31,171 bytes) (→Administration by Qasim - rm unnecessary quote and extra link)
Here you have removed a link (
http://www.ispi-usa.org for this professedly Muslim organization ) that I had provided .This is not an extra link but a link provided by me to make it known that what a completely fictitious source you have repeatedly used from articles from this organizations website . See my earlier comment This organisation and its founder is a medical doctor and not a historian. This is a professedly Muslim organization ostensibly workings for the promotion of understanding of Islam in the west . So far so good . Problem is its chief protagonist whose articles you are using as source and reference is not a Historian .
Therefore all the information alluded to in this article which have been justified on the grounds of the reference provided are patently false and should be removed .
From here on if you continue to hound and delete my posts You will be reported . Intothefire 14:36, 26 May 2007 (UTC)