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where was him born?
I'm really sure he was born in Marrakesh
===>I'm lost It seems that first you ask where he was born, and then you say that you know... Justin (koavf) 01:34, September 13, 2005 (UTC)
this guy is moroccan he is not sahrawi
The place of birth of Mohammed Abdelaziz is Marrakech and not Smara, koavf. You got to prove it. His father still living in morocco (in the city of Tadla) says his son was born in Marrakech. The same applies for the president of Algeria, abdelaziz Bouteflika who was born in Oujda, Morocco, but you can find it mentionned nowhere. In the homepage of the algerian presidency, all former Algerian presidents have a birth place except Bouteflika. Really sad that people have problems with telling their birthplaces. --
SteveLo 12:43, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
===>You edit Is atrocious. Prove he was born in Marrakech. I personally would like to know. "Auto-proclaimed" isn't a word. Adding the line about Rguibat favoritism is unsourced POV. Let's be constructive on this article. - Justin (koavf), talk, mail 15:08, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
=======>koavf, you are a declared supporter of Polisario views. Do you know that Wikipedia is supposed to be neutral, that is, to bring everyone's view when there is conflict. Now, I've gone through some of your contributions concerning Western Sahara, and found you fit to be a member of the politburo of the polisario front. You are missing the basic rules of objectivity. Let's take your article under light:
- His real name is not mentioned
- Born in Smara is not a fact, you have to bring the proof for it. Because, he lived all his life in Marrakech and Rabat before joining the guerilla.
- SADR is an auto-proclamed state, it is not recognized as a state neither by the UN, nor by the Arab League, nor the Islamic Conference, Only the African Union.
- There is no mention of Abdelaziz's pre-Polisario life. He must have one, doesn't he??
- "He was elected ..". Are you kidding? Omar Hadrami and Lehbib Ayoub among others who were in the core group creating the Polisario front in 1973, and both reintegrated Morocco, affirm it was Algeria which put him on top of Polisario front.
- the word occupation is a POV. Annexation is more balanced.
- "he has been steering towards political compromise...", well, you did not mention why. You could have mentioned that 17 years of war using the latest in the russian weaponery did not lead to any results, so he compelled to diplomatic solutions.
- You mention he accepted the Baker plan of 2003, but did not mention he refused Baker plan of 2001 which calls for solution under autonomy.
- "Under his leadership, Polisario abandonned .... in favor of ...". Again you are kidding. Abdelaziz has been the boss for 30 years. Every policy, either alliance with Cuba, or else is done by him. And I can add that the change of heart is due to the fall of the Berlin Wall, and the new world order that followed. But Fidel Castro, Mugabe, and Chavez, are his closest allies.
- "LIBERAL DEMOCRATIC". Wow, applauses. Bravo. Long life Liberal democracy. No comment.
- "MULTIPARTY DEMOCRACY". Wow, applauses. Bravo. Long life multiparty democracy. No comment.
- "Market Economy". Actually this is already true. International aid is being resold in Mauritania and Algeria for profitable prices. This has been acknowledged from within Polisario.
- The USA and the UE are not Mozambique or Zimbabwe. They know who Abdelaziz really is.
- "clean struggle". Well, let me refer you the report of the french NGO, France Libertés, headed by Danielle Mitterand, spouse of the late French president. The treatment reserved to Moroccan prisoners of war, torture, killing, ... is something to be dealt in an international court for crimes against humanity.
- As terrorism, there is already evidence of terrorist groups operating in the African Desert, buying their weaponery from Polisario gangs. Mauritania has arrested some of them after the attacks on a military base, that killed 12 Mauritanian soldiers.
In conclusion, your article can be normal on the polisario/SADR homepage, but making fun of Wikipedia and making it another portal for Polisario propaganda is unacceptable. You got to bring a source for every point I mentioned above, otherwise, this page will be blanked.-- SteveLo 19:43, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
===>New World Order? What in the world was that edit about? I put my biases on my userpage precisely so there is accountability for my edits; not to slander me or write off the contributions I make. Neutrality does not mean that everyone's views are expressed. Not all views, agendas, and biases are of equal weight; they are not all true.
Actually you did not answer any the above mentioned issues. You seem to admire Abdelaziz rather than know him. Have no idea or pretend to have no idea about his pr-Polisario life, and want me to make a google search for you to bring you the report of France-Libertés.You ask others to bring sources when you bring none. In brief, I am disapointed in you. --
SteveLo 09:36, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
===>What? I systematically addressed every one of your points. You just ignored all of mine. I don't know anything about Abdelaziz's pr[e]-Polisario life; educate me. If you want to present the report by France Libertés, please do. You brought it up as a source; do you expect me to go find it? You're not my mom, so I don't really care whether or not you're disappointed in me or your opinion of me regardless. Let's discuss the article instead. Note that you also did not provide any sources; you made an off-hand comment about one. - Justin (koavf), talk, mail 16:28, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
======> As to Abdelaziz's pre-Polisario life: He lived in Marrakech and Rabat. He never lived in Spanish Sahara. He had a Moroccan ID, and a Moroccan passport. He was a student at the universty of Mohamed V with El Ouali, among other founders of the Polisario front. Is it enough for you?. Moreover, his father has always and still lives in Morocco, not even in "Western Sahara" and he is member of the CORCAS. --
SteveLo 17:09, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
===>Okay No, that's not enough. Do you have any proof of this? How is this relevant to anything? Are you just going to ignore all of the other issues that I brought up earlier? You're not going to convince me of your argument by putting scare quotes around names. -
Justin (koavf),
talk,
mail 17:25, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
=====> Koavf, I know it is kiling stuff. It as been a nightmare for Polisario that the world knows who actually Abdelaziz is, and I know it is a nightmare to you too. Now, Don't you think a mention of his Moroccan period should be in the article? As a Polisario fan I guess answered: No way, that will be the KO. But it will be in the article. -- SteveLo 18:05, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
===>What? Most of that wasn't even intelligible. I don't have anything emotionally invested in his childhood. I think that if you can provide any evidence of your assertions, you should. I think you should also address the concerns that I brought up earlier instead of ignoring me. - Justin (koavf), talk, mail 18:10, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
======> Not intelligible??, but you seem to understand it as you react to it. -- SteveLo 18:28, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
===>Alright Clearly, you don't want to discuss it. - Justin (koavf), talk, mail 18:34, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
=====> Now Justin, Do you think Abdelaziz's Pre-Polisario period should be mentioned? eh?. -- SteveLo 18:36, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
===>What do you want from me? If you ignore me and keep on reverting, you'll be banned permanently. I'm trying to be civil here, and you're not. Let's actually discuss the content of the article. If you've got sourced information, I'd be happy to see it. If you have speculation, hearsay, or biased invectives, save them for somewhere else. - Justin (koavf), talk, mail 19:22, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
=======> "I'm trying to be civil here, and you're not" is a pure personal attack. As a "civil" you have been invloved in reverting more than I was. Moreover, Calling for blocking me was a sign of weakness.
The basic points about this article are the following:
1- Abdelaziz was indeed born in Marrakech,Morocco. You say he is born in Smara. What is your proof for that. In other Wiki-pages, as a compromise, anly the date of birth is mentioned, but not the place.
2- Pre-Polisario life of Mohammed Abdelaziz. Why do you strongly object to mentioning it?. Is it because it shows his Moroccan origin, that you don't want people to know?. This is a major issue.
3- All the talk about liberal democracy and market economy is void. How can we talk of a liberal democrat who sitts on top of a structure for 30 years, whitout political opponents? -- SteveLo 12:00, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
===>Misconceptions Steve, we're not communicating here. I'll address every concern you bring to the table, and I'd appreciate you doing the same.
====> it is becoming now clear that Koavf's principle is that every information that is put in the article should be sourced. Am I right?. If yes, then:
===>Not my principle Look below the editing window any time that you make any change to any page on Wikipedia and it says "Content must not violate any copyright and must be based on verifiable sources." (emphasis added) If you think that a certain piece of information is to be called into question, the solution is not to delete it; there is a tag to place in the article for unsourced claims: Template:Fact. Also, bear in mind I'm not making the claim that he was born in Smara.
Other Facts about Mohamed Abdelaziz
His wife is algerian and she's the daughter of the president of the national algerian parliament which is controlled by the algerian presidency.
This can tell a lot about the close ties that tie him with the Algerian regime. He's indeed seen as the Polisario Algerian Man. He's also involved in assassinating El Ouali when in mission in Mauritani in 1976.
El Ouali was quite outspoken and somehow independent from the Algerian regime. It's Algeria that imposed him on polisario. He was never elected or whatsover. No internal democracy. No separation of powers during his rule. How can Wikipedia claim that he's pro liberalism and democracy ?
We really need an unbiased profile of this man. Not something copy-pasted from pro-Polisario sites.
Hi,
I am curious about this image. It is obviously photo shopped and the source website is not what it claims to be and I am quite certain does not contain such a picture anywhere. Jammy07 ( talk) 12:00, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
Does not understand or speak Spanish According to: De la case africaine à la villa romaine: un demi-siècle au service de l'état page 174
Would he need an interpreter for this if he spoke Spanish? Please do not falsify the article, I've provided WP:RS whereas the claim that he speaks Spanish is not supported by any source at all -- Tachfin ( talk) 23:48, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
I've rewritten the paragraph on Le Journal, because the citations seemed lacking. The first referenced a Le Monde story that didn't even mention Western Sahara; the second was a bad link to RSF. I've reexpanded with text from Aboubakr Jamaï. Cheers, Khazar ( talk) 13:19, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
The user Koavf justified some of his edits [1] by his statement that "he wasn't born in Morocco, (...) the contemporary kingdom which did not exist".
As an answer to these WP:OR statements, here are the WP:RS:
All these
WP:RS given, saying that "Modern Morocco" came into existence in 1956 is
WP:OR. :)
Regards,
--
Omar-toons (
talk) 15:46, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
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