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I would like to know if Macedonians agree with this analysis... Secretlondon 14:13, Jan 16, 2004 (UTC)
User:Vergina, kindly stop slapping the msg:NPOV on everything without any explanation. At least put a pointer somewhere to an earlier discussion. -- Shallot 13:55, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Vergina wrote: The Name republc of Macedonia is disputed!!
I'm assuming Vergina's referring to the argument that calling this group of Slavs Macedonian Slavs is POV, because it is claimed by some, mainly Greeks, that the adjective Macedonian should refer to Greek-speaking people, as Alexander the Great was Greek-speaking, and thus it is anachronistic to call a Slavic people by that name, since the Slavic immigration to Europe happened centuries after the fall of the Macedonian Empire. -- Delirium 22:39, Feb 29, 2004 (UTC)
This is very interesting issue - there is no single self-declared "Macedonian Slav" anywhere in the world, but Wikipedia decided to include such an article here...
First of all - in Republic of Macedonia there are about 2 million inhabitans. According to the latest census (and in all the others starting from 1951 there were even more), there are 64,2% self-declared Macedonians (not Macedonian Slavs) living in it. Check CIA World Factbook at https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/mk.html .
In the neighbouring countries, there are people that would self declare themselves as Macedonians, but due to the governmental policies they are not allowed to officially self declare themselves. Nevertheless, take a look at the official web site of the Greek Rainbow Party http://www.florina.org which clearly states that it is the "Political Party of the Macedonian Minority in Greece". Even in Greece, they do not refer to themselves as "Macedonian Slavs".
The impossibility to selfdeclare themselves leads to another conclusion - the members of the Macedonian minorities in neighbouring countries are declaring themselves as Greeks, Bulgarians, Albanians but not a single one as a Macedonian or a Macedonian Slav.
In Canada, Australia, USA there ara big Macedonian communities, and needless to mention, they are clearly self declaring themselves as Macedonians.
Therefore, there are no Macedonian Slavs out of Republic of Macedonia, too.
And finally, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (to be found at http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html ) in Article 15 clearly states:
(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality. (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.
By using "Macedonian Slavs" denominator, Wikipedia authors are not doing any justice to the truth: there are no Macedonian Slavs in existence, nor they ever existed. There are only Macedonians and that it is the only name for this ethnic group.
Therefore, disregard the usage of the derogatory term "Macedonian Slavs" and just the real name - "Macedonians".
And last but not least - are ther any British Celts around? Or Bulgarian Slavs? Or French Gauls?
I am astonished at the size of propaganda and lies contained in this page and the fact that my contribution is considered vandalism.
The Macedonian Slavs are a fabricated ethnic group of people that before World War II refered to themselves as Serbs or Bulgarian.
During the time of Yugoslav ruler Tito a systematic effort was made to fabricate a nation by appropriating symbols of the Greek civilisation and forging history and thus claiming that those Slavs were Macedonians a different ethnic group that speaks the Slavic Macedonian language, that is in fact a dialect of Bulgarian. The reasons behind this was politics. Tito and his regime wanted to expand their territory so that they can have access to the Aegean Sea, in doing so they created this "Macedonia" ethnic identity in order to change the borders of the Balcans.
It is historically documented that the Macedonians under Alexander the Great and well before him, were in fact Greek, as they were speaking the Greek language and they worshipped the Greek gods. In fact they referred to themselves as Greeks. The Slavic tribes that settled in the Balcans did so at a much later time, towards the end of the Roman Empire during 5th to 6th century A.D. It is therefore historically inaccurate to connect the descendants of the Slavs with the Macedonians of antiquity as there is absolutely no relation between them.
There is a lot of serious historical bibliography on this subject by accredited institutions of third countries not Greek or Slavo Macedonic, just take a look at Brittanica Encyclopaedia. It is very frightening at this time and age that propaganda takes over historical truth. Wikipedia.com should not allow articles full of historical inaccuracies being made into a cannon.
Prisonniers Serbes;Prisonniers Bulgars Not Fyromians !Macedonian Slavs are Serbs & Bulgars !
Click presbes1.jpg http://images.google.de/images?q=USKUB&hl=de&btnG=Google-Suche
U.S. State Department, Foreign Relations Vol. VII, Circular Airgram (868.014 / 26 Dec. 1944) by then Secretary of State E. Stettinius: “The Department has noted with considerable apprehension increasing propaganda rumors and semi-official statements in favor of an autonomous Macedonia emanating from Bulgaria, but also from Yugoslav Partisan and other sources, with the implication that Greek territory would be included in the projected state. “This Government considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland” or Macedonian “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic or political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece”.
Vergina 14:52, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Establishment:The Macedonians are Greek people! Not Slavs!
United Nations Resolution 817 ( 1993)
Noting however that a difference has arisen over the name of the State, which needs to be resolved in the interest of the maintenance of peaceful and good-neighbourly relations in the region,
See:-- http://faq.macedonia.org/politics/un.resolutions.html
Establishment:The Macedonian language is identically with the Bulgarian language!
Establishment: 50% of the Slavs people to state FYROM are Bulgarians
Establishment: 50% of the Slavs people to state FYROM are Serbs
Vergina 17:52, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Right, what's going on here? I came across this due to user:Fvw having an argument with someone over whether something is 3RR or removal of vandalism. Can we all follow the correct procedures please? Dunc| ☺ 15:13, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
First of all VMORO have the courtesy of replying at a different post not on top of mine. As you can see I moved your remarks at a new post and removed them from mine.
Second a nation and an ethnic identity take well more than the span of the 20th century to be formed. This usually takes millenia.
To claim that this article discusses Macedonians in the 20th Century is completely wrong since you make references to the Illyrians and the Thraces ancient tribes of classical antiquity that along with the Macedonians (that you are so fond of claiming that they are your ancestors by appropriating their name) have nothing to do with the Slavic people that moved into the Balcans during the 5th & 6th century A.D.
Also I am tired of seeing another Skopje nationalist propagating lies. Also it is very unfortunate that you are so quick at making characterizations and calling names. I suggest you to have a good long read on the history of the Balkan peninsula.
It is very unfortunate that three entire generations have been brought up believing the lies of Tito's regime.
Finally free speech is a basic human right and you by writing on top of my post are infringing it.
I hope that the people who are responsible for this site stop allowing people writing on top of the posts of others.
Happy 2005 everyone, I wish you all the best for the forthcoming year. It's the New Year's Eve, not a good time for an edit war! Get out, meet some friends, enjoy yourselves as much as you can, and we'll be there to discuss when it's time. Etz Haim 16:39, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Right, I'll unprotect this but noting the following.
Please try to be friendly with each other. Dunc| ☺ 14:39, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Dear ChrisO,
First of all the link you provided and wrongly (I hope not with bad intention) named as official EU is not.The site you are reffering to is not official,it's an organization.As a citizen of EU, I know that it is does not recognise any state by the name Macedonia(sic), or the inhabitants of this state as Macedonians(sic).It does recognize a state by the name FYROM.
Second, the number of macedonian-slavs in Greece is less that 10000.This is prooved not only by me saying that,since I live in Macedonia(Greece), but also by the votes the macedonian-slav party gained in last elections(6000).Where exactly are the other 94000?Hiding?Where?
Third, stop aggravating Greek wikipedians with your links.The link you provided names macedonian-slav minority in Greece as Macedonians(sic)(this is not official EU policy as, if you are also EU citizen,you know),names the capital of our region-Thessaloniki with a slavic name (Solun),shows a flag with the an ancient macedonian symbol and present it as flag of macedonians(sic),which by the way is not only arbitrary,high-handed and false,but also it's not the flag of FYROM.
Consequently,the claim that macedonian-slavs in Greece according to EU are 100000 is false.Either we'll write that this is macedonian-slav opinion,or we will change it to 10000 which is more accurate. Kapnisma 09:26, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Again and again and again the same stuff by the same people...
My guess is that you don't want to understand what I say.This organisation is not official,nor relyable for the reasons I mentioned above.Don't say that EU made this speculation, it's wrong. There are no 100000 macedonian-slavs in Greece,where are they?And if Greece harasse them and they are so many,why only 6000 voted their party,as you and your FYROM friends claim?And who are you to question Greece about their census?If you and your friends claim that there are indeed 100000 macedonian-slavs in northern Macedonia that is you opinion and don't try sneaky to involve EU. Kapnisma 13:05, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Oh,dear ChrisO and something else,
Since you declare so loudly the fact that you are neutral and since you believe that this unrelyable,unofficial organisation is in fact relyable to prove your self neutral and not hostile to Greece I expect that you also make changes in the demographics of Germany, since this website claims that 1/3 of the German population is a minority named Low-Germans(!!!) who demand more recognition (!!!!),in the demographics of France, since this website claims that in there exists a minority of 100.000 Savoyans(!!!????),a minority of 13.000.000 Occitans (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????????????????????) who also demand recognition,not to mention what it claims about Italy,Spain,Danes,etc,etc....
So, my dear friend,protector of neutrality (sic), if you dont make these changes in the demographics of the above States according to this unrealyable organisation,which as you wrote exactly above
The site isn't an official EU one, but the estimate appears to be - it's from the EU's INTERREG II programme,
you will prove yourself being hostile,mean and having complex towards Greece... You friend, Kapnisma 16:06, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Dear ChrisO
At the risk of repeating my self
Please stop trying to teach me neutrality and don't present yourself as neutral,because you are not...
You haven't made the changes I've asked, Why?
You continue to claim that the number 100000 is EU estimate, which is false, Why?
Have you ever been to Greece?Because I live in Macedonia (Greece in case you get confused-sic- which region I mean) and I'm trying to find where are all these macedonian-slavs...Are they hiding?You used a silly argument above that they (who are those people anyway?) are counting Greeks of Slavic origin.Oh,yeah? And how exactly they estimated this thing?By asking one by one all the inhabitants of Macedonia(Greece-again for the above reasons)?They asked 2.450.000 people one by one: Are you of Slavic origin?...Mercy...
According to my memory neutrality means to present all opinions in an equal way,but when I see something ridiculous I can't accept it.
So, dear protector of neutrality,as long as you don't make the changes in the demographics of Germany,France,etc,etc (since you claim that you source is a EU one and that you are neutral) I can't accept those ridiculous claims here Kapnisma 21:51, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Risking repeating myself
Protector of neutrality why you continue not answering to these simple questions? Kapnisma 23:13, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Leave aside the dispute for a moment, there's one or two simple questions that desperately need answers:
The 10,000 of the Greek estimate happens to be the product of the Rainbow Party percentage (0,1%) and the Greek population (10 million). In the absence of census data, the votes of the Rainbow Party are the only actual measurement that cannot be disputed. On the other hand, everything ranging from zero to a million is an estimate, not a measurement. My opinion is to stick with what we have and explain the situation verbosely, instead of letting the reader make his guess between numerical extremes. Etz Haim 00:29, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
You've misunderstood something, and that's probably my fault. I've always assumed that the Greek estimate derives from a method that takes into account the Rainbow Party votes. I've mentioned that 0,1% * 10M = 10K because this provides a measurement to compare with the estimate. The methodology has to be examined in both cases.
People who have some percentage of Slavic origin, may vote anything but the Rainbow Party, because they identify themselves as Greek. The Rainbow Party and the "Slav community" cannot claim to represent anyone else but their own voters. Imagine if Greece claimed that all those in FYR Macedonia who have some Greek ancestry are Greeks... Just as I've already said, EVERYONE has the right to ethnic self-identification that should be ultimately respected.
If INTERREG relied unilaterally on the "Slav community" to provide their numbers, then they essentially did no research, and their results are biased. Which makes us return to the first question: Did the EU actually endorse these numbers? Etz Haim 01:16, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The hypocrisy in it's greatest glory!!!!!
ChrisO,
You have just crossed the line here ChrisO,
You called me nationalist in
Wikipedia:Requests for Comment ?
Aren't you ashamed of this?
I return to you your miserable characterisation and I urge the people responsible for this site to protect me from your miserable personal attacks.
Kapnisma 10:39, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The figure of around 10,000 Macedonian Slavs which is based on the number of the voters for the Rainbow party is basically correct and this is usually the number of people with Slav Macedonian consciousness quoted also by sources outside Greece. The higher numbers (100,000 and above) are usually described as Greek citizens with Slav origin which is scarcely equal to Macedonian Slavs.
VMORO, whether you believe it or not,whether you like it or not, Greece has not signiphicant minorities.Apart from the muslims in Thrace, which are either of Turkish either of Pomak origin (about 140,000) the numbers of other minorities (Jewish-Greeks,macedonian-slavs,Roms,Albanians) are so little that become meaningless to refer to them as minorities,they are ethnic groups.Of course macedonian-slavs exist, but not as macedonians in Greece.And their state has the name FYROM according to E.U.,U.N.,etc not the name you provocativaly say.
Don't lecture me or my country for harassing minorities.Greece is a democratic country and member of European Unity since 1981, so your high-handed accusations are meaningless.
My problem is that this person (ChrisO) tries to persuade us that the number of macedonian-slavs in Greece is 100,000 according to E.U.,which is false. If he likes,he can write that they are 15,000,000, I don't care as long as he doesn't involve E.U. because E.U. does not claim the existance of 100,000 macedonian-slavs in Greece. Kapnisma 12:30, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
An other fine exaple of complex towards Greece by neighbouring nations....
Instead of making high-handed accussations(I suppose your country is the most fine example of democratic organisation,right?) come visit Greece to see by yourself those minorities you claim.So, Vlachs are also a minority,right? So according to you (since I'm Vlach from my mothers side)I'm not Greek but Vlach?According to you I'm minority?According to you Ioannis Kolettis (as Vlach )the founder of
Megali Idea and first prime minister of Greece was minority?According to you Averoff (as Vlach) minister during Balkan Wars was minority?According to you his brother who gave the money to buy Greece's battleship Averoff(you can see this ship nowadays at Salamina as a museum) during Balkan Wars was minority?
Mercy....' What else are we going to hear today?...What else?...
Kapnisma 13:30, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Regarding ChrisO's initiative for "dispute resolution": Kapnisma has every right to become upset when you ask for comment first by calling him a nationalist. This is against the RfC policy, and can only create prejudice. If I was the one to ask for that RfC, I would put it that way: "Should we mention an independent source as one endorsed by the EU?" or "Has the EU ever made any statement/intervention regarding the Macedonian Slav population in Greece"?
As for the NPOV policy, ChrisO has been making a mockery of it by disregarding his (and everyone's) responsibility to double-check his sources, as well as, by stressing his intention to include "both" sources, meaning the Greek source and the one that is allegedly EU. If you do want to include both sources, include the Greek and the Macedonian Slav estimate, without falsely presenting that the EU has sided with the Macedonian Slavs. This eurominority.org cannot possibly inspire any credibility. With all its funny little adornments, the RoM national anthem, and the expired flag with the Vergina Sun on it, this website is a shame for those who maintain it. Etz Haim 16:58, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
To user Project2501a:,
I never,ever said that Greece holds fine census data,problems exists but when people from other states pretend to be democratic and liberal and present Greece as hell on earth as it conserns human rights,it makes me angry.
The reason I called for protection is not my disability (as you imply),but the fact that I don't want to respond to him using the same altitude resulting in furious confrontations.
Conclusion:
In order to solve this dispute (regarding the Macedonian Slav population estimates, and nothing more) and unprotect the page, my suggestion is to include two estimates for every country mentioned: One of the country's own government and the official estimate published by the FYROM government. I agree with VMORO that unofficial numbers claimed by groups (or individuals) with no endorsement/recognition have no place here. Etz Haim 10:48, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The only EU source that I could find is this report for Euromosaic, available only in French [1]. Another document I found is the Greek Helsinki Monitor report on the issue at [ [2]] (word .doc format). Hope this helps.
Another thing: Occitane example may not be applicable. People who speak Occitane are French by ethnicity, just like people who speak both Low German and High German are Germans, and people who speak English are not necessarily English. Languages often share distribution with ethnicities, but often they do not. The number of Slavic Macedonian speakers is a good pointer to the number of Slavic Macedonians, while e.g. religion would not be. In other places, like Bosnia, it's the other way around. Zocky 14:38, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I kindly ask the editor to rename "Macedonian Slavs" topic to "Macedonians". The people involved in discussion didn't show any proof that there are any "Macedonian Slavs" in existence anywhere in the world. Just check this google link for about 17000 documents macedonian site:.gov.au to see that Australia fully honours the right name of Macedonians.
Secondly, I also ask for a change of the references in all the pages where "Macedonian Slavs" are mentioned and substituted with "Macedonians" i.e. first and foremost the " Macedonian Slavs" page.
Thirdly, as Macedonians have a country - Republic of Macedonia is that country (Constitution of Macedonia is to be found here Constitution), Macedonians should be moved out of the Category:Slavic Ethnic Groups [ [3]] (all mentioned there are "country-less") and put into the Category:Slavic Nations [ [4]].
It's a pitty that some people spend so much time and effort with shaky "historical" documents instead of just observing contemporary reality. All the individuals in the world have the human right of self-determination and self-declaration. Macedonians are not an exception.
That is exactly the eesence of our dispute, my friend.
No Greek denies your existence and furthermore your right to call yourselves as you like.But you must respect the history and culture of others.By claiming to be called Macedonians using arbitrarily without any reason this term you are being seen by the Greeks as falshificators of their history.Using your way of thinking, if tomorrow an other nation desides to be called Attica,what should happen?The Greeks of Attica will lost their right to be called Athenaeans and we will start saying that the ancient Athenaeans were not Greeks but Atticans?This is not a rational way of thinking,it shows irresponsibility and fanatism.There are better ways to declare that you are a separe nation than to trying to steal others history and culture to justify your existence.
By the way your point of view is clearly presented in all articles referring to Macedonians.
Kapnisma
Macedonians are Macedonians. Greek Macedonians are Greek Macedonians. Ancient Macedonians are Ancient Macedonians. Is it so complicated? I do not see any Greek census data with any Macedonians self-declared as such. On the contrary, we have self-declared Macedonians in Republic of Macedonia, some in Bulgaria, some in USA, Canada, Australia... But there are no (self-declared) Macedonian Slavs anywhere in the world. It is that simple.
Denying basic human right is not the very best way to deal with this issue.
And, again, I'm not discussing anything historical, speculative or whatever. I'm just pointing you to the present facts.
Regarding the right to call yourself a Macedonian, I do not deny that right, too. It's up to you. But don't forget that in your country there are no self-declared Macedonians, but Greeks only. When you decide to self-declare yourself as Macedonians, than we can try to resolve that. Now, we have no problems - you are Greeks (even Greek Macedonians) and we are simply Macedonians.
-- Kirev 14:36, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Greeks are Macedonians. Slav Macedonians are macedonian-slavs: My dear friend, this is exactly the altitude that macedonian-slavs use towards Greeks that makes them angy... Suddenly Tito desided to baptise your people as Macedonians(for well-known reasons...),exploiting a term for his advandage.You claim our history,our heritage,our symbols...You learn to hate Greeks,the same time that actually Greece is the country that supports you financially more than any other... No, my friend we don't hate you,we don't want to destroy you,we just want you to stop stealing our heritage to justify your existance... No, my friend we, as Greeks, are Macedonians and you ,as Slavs, are macedonian-slavs... Kapnisma 09:08, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Macedonians and Macedonian Slavs: Whether you like it or not, the name accepted in English is Macedonian Slavs. Look around the other Encyclopaedias, as well as scientific literature. Certainly every people can choose its own name (and the arguments of Etz.Haim are complete bollocks) - but in its language. You cannot make any demands on the English-speaking world. And I'll only remind you the Hungarians are actually Magyar, the Germans are Deutscher and the Finns are Suomi.
VMORO
References please? Regarding the "baptising" of Tito... You're wrong, but anyway, it is not the point of my discussion at all. The only thing that matters is the present situation (more than 2 million Macedonians in existence and not a single Macedonian Slav). Therefore, as Wikipedia should provide the correct data, "Macedonian Slavs" reference should not be used for naming of contemporary Macedonians. Again, if you decide to self-declare you as a Macedonian than maybe we can think of these two references Macedonian (Greek) for you and Macedonian for us (even some other possibilities exist). But you will not dare to self-declare you as a Macedonian in any census, isn't it so? What are you afraid of? Or your democratic country does not allow you to self-declare yourself? C'mon, the great Hellenic Republic is afraid of Macedonians (whoever they are)...
Secondly, regarding the right to self-declare "IN YOUR OWN LANGUAGE", as user VMORO pointed out. Is that "argument" based on some reference? In UN Declaration of human rights there is no such thing. Can you enlighten me please? The reality is that Macedonians can ask for their own name in any language in the world. As Peking become Beijing. As Cote d'Ivoire asked in the UN not to be called Ivory Coast. As Venezuela asked to be called Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela, Belorusia became Belarus... That's it. Macedonians are not an exception no matter how hard you try to "prove" otherwise.
Can you please use more references?
Thanks, -- Kirev 12:34, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
You really make me laugh!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dear friend, try to use common sence for once and abord the fooolishness that you were instucted.I will NOT use in any census the term Macedonian, because I am Greek and Macedonians,as the ancient ones,are Greek,what do you expect?Those ones from Epirus for example they will not say I'm Greek, but Epirotis?
You realy believe that the ancient Macedonians were Slavs, like you?
Who told you so? Your FYROM teacher?
Try to justify your existence without trying to steal others heritage, because you are stating ludicrous comments Kapnisma 12:54, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
After your statement,friend I withdraw my laugh and my characterism Kapnisma 13:59, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The point of this discussion is to discuss the contents of the main page. This is not a forum to host political discussions, and certainly the Macedonian dispute is not going to be solved here. As for Kirev's nationalist delusions of grandeur and his suggestion that we should be afraid of him because of his alleged ancestors, so much of his contact with "contemporary reality". Take a friendly advice and try to establish some self esteem based on yourself and your qualities.
Etz Haim 13:32, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Deletion of my comment that was supposed to be funny but now it is an excuse to disregard the facts I cite:
Can't you see the smiley at the end? So I will delete it as you are taking it too seriously. The rest remains as it is.
-- Kirev 13:50, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The "facts" that you cite are based on your prejudice against Greece. My government, an ineffective bunch of bureaucrats, is responsible for many things that have gone the wrong way and are part of the Greek "contemporary reality", but has never deprived a Greek Macedonian his right to call himself Macedonian. Why would they anyway? It would be stupid and self-destructive, in other words something that only you could suggest. As for the census data, Kapnisma has given you an answer.
Etz Haim 14:28, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Census rules in Greece: Is there a possibility for you to declare yourself as a Macedonian in an official census? No? Why not? As far as I know, there's the possibility only to declare your religion. Even that Greece has Turkish minority, the official government wording is "Muslim minority". So everyone that is Orthodox Christian is just and only Greek. Therefore, you claim that you are a Macedonian, but you are deprived of your right to self-declare yourself as a Macedonian. By your own government.
As far as I remeber, last May there was a congress of the Rainbow Party in Solun, wasn't there? Hotel Kapsis or something like that. Macedonian language spoken freely after almost a century? Even more, Greek policemen with teargas guarded the Congress against the skinheads and other protesters on the street Solun May 30, 2005 . So the Greek government recognizes Macedonians, but you do not... Interesting.
Definetely this has no sensible direction. Can you only answer me if there are any self-declared "Macedonian Slavs" anywhere in the world? No? That's why I ask for rename of the topic.
Discussion ends for me just about here. You can continue speaking about history, Tito, Alexander the Great and stuff like that. I hope that you wake up one morning and see the reality that "Macedonian Slavs" do not exist at all. But Macedonians do.
Cheerz, -- Kirev 15:10, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
It's really sad how prejudiced and provocative you are my friend...Any linguist in the world can explain to you that your language is a bulgarian dialect,any historian can tell you,you have nothing to do with Macedonians...Still, you are so blind from your homeland's propaganda, that you refuse to
accept reality and you prefer to live in darkness,like an ostrich...It's sadly...
And something else, my provocative friend: The name of the city is the Greek THESSALONIKI, as it was founded by Cassander in 315 B.C., not the slavic one solun (which by the way means in old Slabonic City of Salt) Kapnisma
Dear Kirev, the status of the recognition of the Macedonian Slavs in Greece is a whole another issue addressed in the discussion made before your request to rename this article. Your request has nothing to do with it, and has contributed nothing to it as well. If you cared to read the talk page, you would see that every Greek user taking part in this discussion acknowledges that there is a problem and wants the recognition of the Macedonian Slav minority.
Contrary to what you've been told, the Turkish minority is recognized by Greece according to the Treaty of Lausanne. The Muslim minority of Thrace includes muslim Turks, Pomaks, and Roma, and there are secular Turkish people in Greece, or Greek citizens of Turkish descent whatsoever, who are not muslim. Can you tell the difference between the Turkish and the Muslim minority?
As for the Rainbow Party congress, those who are responsible for the attempt to attack the congress are members of the extreme-right "Greek Front" that polled 0,25% in the last election [5], and the vast majority of the Greek society disapproved their behavior. On the contrary, those who succesfully attacked the Radko congress, with the blatant tolerance of your authorities, where made national heroes of your country.
So I advise you to try view the facts from a different perspective and listen to the other side's arguments. Etz Haim 16:13, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
This discussion has been going nowhere for years. Clearly the proponents of both POVs are not going to admit that the other side is right. Therefore, I tried to work out what the issues are. I also tried to find out some facts.
I leave it to others to comment on these results and provide other research or sources, but please, don't just reiterate your points. We've all read them enough times and they're already there, just scroll up the page. I suggest we move to closing arguments and try to reach the consensus. Since this isn't exact science, a poll would also be an appropriate way to resolve the issue. Zocky 22:12, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Zocky, firstly I want to remind you that the conversation started because someone tried to justify macedonian-slav claims towards Greece using sneaky E.U.
Second, about the name of these people.I think that the term macedonian-slav is the most appropriate because it's between the opinions of both Greeks and macedonian-slavs.Greeks do not accept the use of the term macedonians for these people since the word macedonian is a Greek one,it describes a Greek region and the use of this word to describe the inhabitants of FYROM is seen as an effort to falshificate history and to steal Greek heritage.Of course these people have the right to call themselves as they like(for example I can start saying I'm from Mars),but I believe it's unaccepable to ignore others history and heritage and to demand from all to start calling them as they want. Kapnisma 08:44, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
== Kapnisma,
"Your opinions" are not just political, they reek on fascism! But then again, fascism is also politics, isn't it? ==
Poll is unacceptable. Self-declaration is basic human right. Nobody can tell anyone how to call himself. 2,000,000 people around the world every 10 or so years "poll" themselves as Macedonians in official censuses. Not a single "Macedonian Slav".
Do you say Gypsies or Roma? SHiptars or Albanians? Krauts or Germans? The polite and only acceptable way is to ask those people how they want to be called. And again, 2,000,000 Macedonians made they choice.
Poll with just show the situation on the Internet in general - 4% Internet penetration in Macedonia (out of 2 million) will definetely lose to 20-30% in Greece (almost 10 million). And it will introduce a dangerous precedent that Wikipedia will not be ruled by facts but by outnumbering.-- Kirev 00:50, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
You say ".... Self-declaration is basic human right.......". But certain rules must exist. I cannot call my self German when I am Greek. Nor can Greece decide that from now on it will be called U.S.A.
The name "Macedonia" was used by Greeks 3.000 years ago so we came first. You have the right to use any name but none of the names that already characterize another nation ( Newcomer 08:47, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC))
Look all of you: This is not a political decision on what the "true" name of the people is. It's an editorial decision on which words to use as a convention in Wikipedia. Your endless tirades are really unimpressive. Can any of you disprove that (1) "Macedonians" is too ambiguous to use as the article title, (2) "Macedonian Slavs" is the most commonly used unambiguous name, and (3) When not in the context of Ancient Macedon or relations between RoM and Greece, the slavic people is most commonly called simply "Macedonians"? Zocky 10:58, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Let's take a deep breath and consider the data points here:
1) The Republic of Macedonia is inhabited by a people who usually call themselves "Macedonians".
2) This meaning is ambiguous as it overlaps with the terms for the people who inhabit geographical Macedonia and the RoM itself (are the Albanians in Macedonia also "Macedonians"?), as well as the inhabitants of ancient Macedon.
3) No other ethnic group calls themselves "Macedonians" as a term of ethnic identity. Therefore the term "Macedonians" as an ethnic identifier is exclusively confined to those whom we're currently calling "Macedonian Slavs".
4) However, "Macedonian Slavs" also has ambiguities - Bulgarians, Serbs etc who live in geographical Macedonia are Slavs, and (geographical) Macedonians, and therefore also "Macedonian Slavs". It also isn't the most commonly used term by the ethnic group in question.
We could get around these problems by having three disambiguations for the term "Macedonians", as follows:
Macedonians -> Macedonians (ethnic group) -> Macedonians (geography) -> Macedonians (historical)
Each article would obviously need to be clear about the differences between the usage of each term. -- ChrisO 11:29, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
== 1. True, as in any other country for that matter (Blacks & Indians living in England don't reffer to English; Turks in Germany don't regard themselves as German etc).
2. Why is the term "overlapping" used here only? Will it apply to England, Bulgaria, Germany Greece...
3. Agree completelly. Why was the term "Macedonian Slavs" used in the first place is puzzling. Then again, having all these Metaxa fascist propagandists around..
4. No, no, no...please don't get mixed up. "Slavs" means NOTHING, "Macedonian Slavs" even less! This is a coined term (as of recent) used by the propagandist media from "the West" (USA & UK primeraly).
Bulgarians, which btw are not Slavs but Tatars, and Serbs are a very tiny minority so I don't see how these (and other) ethnic groups can be relevant to the final picture.
Finaly, your final statement is also wrong - Ethnic Group, Geography & History. It's all the same ==
== Wow, if this isn't a cheap fascist shot then I don't know what is! You must be very proud of your self, aren't you? So, you are waiting for an estimate from a country which doesn't exist (Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia - FYROM), to give you the number of (REAL - not hermaphrodites!) Macedonians living in Greece? This is really deep and tells a lot about you and the current Greek mentality/government.
It's like 1938 again...the Nazi government is asking the Israeli government how many Jews live in Germany at the moment.
THIS ARTICLE CAN'T BE UNLOCKED BEFORE YOU (PEOPLE) UNLOCK YOUR FASCIST THINKING! ==
In 1938 there wasn't any Israeli government. By the way how do you propose to be called the Greek Macedonians? Newcomer 21:22, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Greek Bulgarians, of course. Vladko
You have a sence of humor OK. But you'd realize that most of us Macedonians are Greeks. By the way could you tell me what was the language of the ancient Macedonians? Or you think that they were using slavic idioms? Do you know what the religion of the ancient Macedonians was when the Slavs were wondering at the steppes of Asia 300 years B.C.? Newcomer 22:44, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Posted to article by anon user 66.163.29.168 and moved here by ChrisO
== All I can add is that the Macedonians living throughout the world (not only in the Balkans) are equaly offended with this derogatory "Macedonian Slavs" term, still present on this site. It appears that for some people/nations ethnicity is merely a sport, a game. But, from what I know, I can assure you that an ethnic "political debate" isn't a game for any ethnic Macedonian - it's a matter of life and death! With such motives (games, theater..against real life stakes & survival), I wonder who will prevail in the end. Actually, it's very simple...let's do a DNA test and compare. Let's see who were the "Greeks" (whatever that means), and compare the present Macedonians to "Slavs" (whatever that means too). Let's see if we, the Macedonians, share more common genes with Russians, Poles, Slovaks etc, than with the Sicilians/Sardinians, Cretans, Lebanese, Jewish, French etc. If that's not convincing enough for some, then let's study & compare our physical appearence(s), gesticulations, behaviour etc. And I haven't spoken of the collective memory yet...Alexander (and his derived names) was/is an extremely common name with the Macedonians - always was! ==
Yes and the name Alexander is even more common in Greece.
And not only the name Alexander but most other ancient Macedonian names like Parmenion, Crateros etc.
You are wrong. Although the Christian church tried very hard to eliminate all ancient Greek names refusing to baptize children with "non Christian" names the ancient Greek names are still present in Greece.
THE GREEK SAID........
"You say that you are not Slavs? Then why all endings in your names remind Slavs? "
THE MACEDONIAN REPLIED......
How many people in Romania or Georgia or Chechnya or Kazakhstan or Kyrgyzstan or Tajikistan or Uzbekistan have Slavic name endings?Are they Slavs too?How many Greeks have Slavic names that have been Hellenized?:)You are such a hypocrite.
THE GREEK SAID........ All these nations you mention like Georgians or Chechnyans or Kazakhstanis or Kyrgyzstanis etc have Slavic name endings because they were forced to do so by the Russians. The same happened with Turks who live in Bulgaria tha last years of the communist regime. Who forced you to change your names intoi Slavic? And if you are not Slavs why don't you change them again? I do not know any Greek with Hellenized Slavic name Can you give me an example? You call me a hypocrite. Why?
What do you mean "political standards"? Being or not being slav is a matter of race it's not political.
You talk about Self-identification. The same stands for us. Greek Macedonians isn't it?
Being Greek and Macedonian is as simple as being Greek and Athenian or Greek and Spartan. It is so simple.
And do not forget that in your multinational country only half the citizens declare themselves as "Macedonians" while all citizens in Greek Macedonia declare themselves as Greek Macedonians.
== Macedonia was a forbidden term in Greece as late as 17-18 years ago - do you remember "Northern Greece? I do!
Your country (Greece) is definately more multinational than the current Republic of Macedonia! Only in Greece is possible to have a foreign minister, called Pangaloss, who says that his parents are Albanians (and spoke Albanian at home), but him, himself is a Greek! And I know and have seen a lot of this "monolithic Greekness" first hand! ===
You are wrong again. The term Macedonia was never forbidden in Greece. You say that you remember the term Northern Greece. Then you probably remember the song "Makedonia xakousti" one of the first songs young Greeks used to learn in elementary schools.
It is really funny to say that Greece is multinational, when 98% of the population are Greeks. As for the ex foreign minister Pangaloss, he never said that his parents are Albanians. He said that they come from the part of the Ottoman empire that now belongs to Albania and spoke Albanian at home but they were Greeks. They felt and knew they were Greeks although they used to live somewhere else even if they could not speak their language. I do not see anything curious. The same thing happened with Jews. When they returned to Palestine almost none could speak their language because they were speaking German, Russian,French etc.
Finally do not forget that the whole problem did not existed untill after the second world war, and that when pre war Jugoslavia collapsed under the axis attack the citizens of what is now FYROM hoisted Bulgarian flags to salute the advancing Bulgarian army. Newcomer 22:59, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The Macedonians in Greece participated (in huge numbers - formed the majority of the fighters overall) in the so called "Greek Civil War", only after they were promised, beforhand, by the Greek Comunist Party, to grant them a MACEDONIAN CULTURAL AUTHONOMY WITHIN GREECE afterwards! If you didn't know that, then guess why the Macedonians in the Yugoslavian (de facto Serbian) ocupation zone joined the Yugoslav Communist Party resistence the last (fighting the Invading Fascist Bulgarian Government Army was going to happen anyway, however). As for saluting the invading army and waving the flags of the invaders...if you only saw the propaganda news-reels from Prague, when the German Army entered the city, you would had a different picture of the events, wouldn't you? Obviously, you are shocked (then again, maybe not) by the very fact of excistence of an old nation such are the Macedonians. But if you read between the lines & dissregard the cheap propaganda created by the super powers of the time - do you really think that we THE MACEDONIANS dont't exist? Even today, after the huge decline, we number at least 3 million worldwide! Just how does one imagine to erase us - with enormous Nazi camp?
For a Greek (whatever that means), this matter is a sport - caffe talk and cheap entertainment for the (stupid) masses. For a Macedonian, however, this is a matter of life & death. Just think about it...
======You are partially right and partially wrong.
1.During the axis occupation of Greece most of Slav-Macedonians in Greece declared themselves as Bulgarians and helped the axis authorities not only with informations but also forming armed paramilitary groups that participated in anti-partizan operations and killed many Greek civilians. Most of them were accused for collaboration with the axis forces, murders of civilians etc. and fled Greece after the war.
2.After 1945 during the so called "third round" of the Greek civil war the Communist party of Greece (representing less than 10%) in order to gain support from Tito promised to the Slav-Macedonians in Greece to grant them a MACEDONIAN CULTURAL AUTHONOMY WITHIN GREECE afterwards!In fact this plan was first mentioned during the 20's by the Bulgarian Communist party. Can you mention any book, article, notice, report before 1920 that talks about a "Macedonian nation". Even after 1920 only the communists were speaking about it since it was a communist idea after all. Even today in Greece most communists are supporting you.
3.Who said that the Macedonians do not exist. We exist and we are here in Greek Macedonia feeling Greeks and Macedonians just like others feel Greeks and Spartans or Greeks and Ionians.
4.It is at least silly to talk about erasing of nations or "nazi camps". In Greek school books there are is not a single word against our neighbours while in FYROM the school books talk about "liberating" Greek cities from their Greek citizens. I really wonder who is dreaming of huge nazi camps. To us the whole talk is about the name and history only. And talkink of History tell me why the ancient Macedonians were speaking only Greek? Why the ancient Macedonians adored only Greek Gods? Why they spread the Greek language and civilization all over the world? If they were a different nation wouldn't they have spread their own language and culture?
Also. Do not forget that the Slav-Macedonian communists soon after the occupation of Yugoslavia by the axis forces asked to join the BULGARIAN communist party. Simply because they felt Bulgarians. Tito tried very hard to create a resistance movement in the area which is now FYROM. For this reason he sent Tempo in your area. The first resistance groups appeared only in 1943 when the axis defeat was almmost sure. Just check who was general secretary of the communist party in your area and his history. But you probably do not learn the whole truth in schools of a communist regime.
Also check about Metodi Shatorov (Sharlo) who was the leader of the Macedonian communists. He wanted his men to join the Bulgarian Communist Party because it was more comfortable during the 1941-1944. Tito had him expelled, so Sharlo moved to Bulgaria where he died a hero's death as a partisan in the early days of September 1944. -- Vladko 05:08, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
I demand that for the good of Wikipedia, the title of the article is immediately changed to Macedonians or at least Macedonians (ethnicity) and that all “Macedonian Slavs” references throughout are changed to “Macedonians.” Before anybody jumps to conclusions let me explain that the reason for my demand is purely practical and relates to the relevance of Wikipedia. As an encyclopedia, the goal of Wikipedia is to store knowledge and to inform people, but in the case of Macedonians, it fails to do both.
While the article itself ignores the Macedonian point of view and gets a few facts wrong, for the moment I am only focusing on the biggest mistake of all – the reference “Macedonian Slavs.” The reason I say that this term is wrong is not its historical nature but its practical use. The term “Macedonian Slav” is very rarely used today in media and official documents, except in the case of Greek correspondence. Major news channels such as CNN, BBC and Reuters, encyclopedias such as Britanicca and factbooks such as the CIA World Factbook use the term “Macedonians” in reference to the ethnicity Wikipedia currently calls “Macedonian Slavs”. International as well as personal documentation takes the term “Macedonian” as standard (I have lived in the U.K. and Belgium and my “Macedonian” nationality has never been disputed by any administration). The only country that disputes the usage of term “Macedonians” internationally is Greece. The biggest website to dispute the use of the term “Macedonians” is Wikipedia.
As it has been stressed several times, Wikipedia is by far the biggest generator of the term “Macedonian Slavs” on the Internet – not only is it the first hit on Google but its mirror pages follow very closely. Wikipedia is encyclopedia and as such it should not be active participant in the creation and distribution of any term, let alone a term that is considered derogatory by a whole nation. By keeping the rarely used term “Macedonian Slavs” over the widely used “Macedonians” (even as the historical debate continues), the Wikipedia is being manipulated into taking a side. In the end, what is really important about this article is that present-day Macedonians are, in fact, called Macedonians internationally, not that because of historical reasons Greece disputes the term “Macedonians.” -- Ivica83 03:09, 9 June 2005 (UTC)
Could the admins of the English Wikipedia, please move this article to Macedonians, or if that causes too much semantic problems (I doubt that, though), to Macedonians (ethnicity), Macedonians (ethnic group), Macedonians (nationality), Ethnic Macedonians? I could do that myself, but I don't want to be labeled as a "nationalist" - so I will elaborate the reasons why this drastic change should be made. ChrisO made a fine list of facts:
1) The Republic of Macedonia is inhabited by a people who usually call themselves "Macedonians".
2) This meaning is ambiguous as it overlaps with the terms for the people who inhabit geographical Macedonia and the RoM itself (are the Albanians in Macedonia also "Macedonians"?), as well as the inhabitants of ancient Macedon.
3) No other ethnic group calls themselves "Macedonians" as a term of ethnic identity. Therefore the term "Macedonians" as an ethnic identifier is exclusively confined to those whom we're currently calling "Macedonian Slavs".
4) However, "Macedonian Slavs" also has ambiguities - Bulgarians, Serbs etc who live in geographical Macedonia are Slavs, and (geographical) Macedonians, and therefore also "Macedonian Slavs". It also isn't the most commonly used term by the ethnic group in question. (my bolds)
In addition, I would suggest several other reasons:
5) No one has copyright over geographical terms. The Bosniaks article shows us an example - although the term Bosnia is probably a christian (Byzanine or Serb/Croatian) term, no one seriously forbids these people (who are mostly Muslims) to declare themselves Bosniaks freely, though they have openly declared themselves as Muslims or Bosnian Muslims, until the early 90's.(Macedonians have clearly identified themselves as Macedonians, not Macedonian Slavs, for over 65 years, though there are good examples of a clear macedonian identity before that) Although, the example is not entirely appropriate, following the logic of the "Macedonian Slavs" term, Bosniaks should be labeled "Bosnian Muslims", in order not to offend Serbs or Croats, who have more "historical rights" over the term. Not to mention plenty of US towns which are named according to Greek towns - Athens, Syracuse etc.
6) There is a certain chauvinism in using tribal suffixes when referring to modern nations. Consequently, the are no Serbians, but Serbian Slavs, no Croatians, but Croatian Slavs, etc. The "Slavs" suffix subtly implies the "racial purity" of the inhabitants of RoM, while ancient Macedonians remained "pure Greeks" (actually, there is no hard evidence that ancient Macedonians were Greeks - they were considered "barbarians")). So it is assumed that Slavs remained an isolated tribe for over 14 centuries, and then suddenly in the 20th century they began to annoy the "pure Greeks", randomly. Actually, it is logical to think that the Slavs mixed with local inhabitants - mostly Ancient Macedonians, Thracians, Illyrians, Greeks. Should I mention the Celtic, Bulgar, Serb, Norman, Latin, Epyrote, Byzantine, Turkish invasions over the region of Macedonia - some of these reigned for centuries, and although the slavic dialects prevailed, we surely cannot speak of Macedonian Slavs, just as we cannot speak of Britannic Anglosaxons, Norman Anglosaxons etc. The modern Greek nation is not a "pure" Hellenic nation, also - Slavic tribes have reached as far as Pellopponesus, in some northern areas of modern Greece (mostly Macedonia) semi-autonomous Slavic states were formed, some of them lasted more than a century. Their inhabitants... have they simply dissapeared? Moreover, most of the invasions I have mentioned above also occured in mainland Greece. Ironically, given the ethnic complexities of the region, on some occasions, it is possible that some of the hardcore greek nationalists, are actually "more slavic" than their northern counterparts.
7) But, enough history. Almost every, if not, all, official documents never mention a Macedonian Slav ethnicity. They use Macedonians, instead. Moreover, Macedonians declare themselves as Macedonians, never as Macedonian Slavs, in all countries, so no country (except Greece and unofficially, Bulgaria) actually denies the existence of a Macedonian nation, nor their right to declare themselves as Macedonians. See the CIA website, for example.
8)It has been said, but I'll say it again - "Macedonian Slavs" is not a commonly used name for the inhabitants of RoM. Of the encyclopedias I've encountered only MSN Encarta uses that term, while Britannica finds Macedonians a more appropriate term. Most major news agencies use "Macedonians" instead of "Macedonian Slavs". Actually, BBC and CNN with their reportages of the 2001 crisis used the term "Macedonian Slavs" , but their attitude was briefly changed. Ever since, they ALWAYS use the term "Macedonians". Zocky's Google test is a further indication about how "common", is the "Macedonian Slav" term.
9)The sad thing is, that, actually, Wikipedia makes ground for the common usage of the "Macedonian Slavs" term which is considered derogatory, even racist, by the vast majority of Macedonians. The right for self-determination is a basic human right. As an admin of the Macedonian Wikipedia I found it very hard to convince a wider macedonian public to participate in the macedonian wiki project - they immediatelly think that Wikipedia is not a "free Encyclopedia" before they even get to know the basic wiki concepts and culture (I highly condemn the macedonian vandalism that has occured on this page). This is mostly due to how they have been portrayed in sensitive articles concerning Macedonian history.
In conclusion, I find no moral, logical, historical and practical arguments for the current title of this article, and I personally find it offensive. I kindly ask the neutral admins observing this discussion to move the article to Macedonians (with a disambiguation link in the upper part), or Macedonians (ethnicity), Macedonian (ethnic group), Macedonian (nationality) or Ethnic Macedonians. Best regards. -- FlavrSavr 03:18, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
they dont know anything...if they went to any real sources for information other than greek(who think they rule all and own everything) people they would have made a much better and true page. MACEDONIANS ARE MACEDONIAN...NOT GREEK...MACEDONIA CONQUERED GREECE AND ONE DAY ALL OF MACEDONIA WILL BE TOGETHER AGAIN!!!!! MAKEDONIA ZA MAKEDONCITE!!!!!
You must be kidding. The truth is that Macedons were Greeks. There is not a single doubt about that. So stop posting propaganda.