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Very long talk page, mostly over a year old. No activity for two months, so I archived it. Editors here may be interested in the activity going on at vaccine controversy, which is an ugly merge from that page and anti-vaccinationist. Cool Hand Luke 03:02, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
I've again removed the suggestion that Wakefield's recommendation was to "exercise caution" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=MMR_vaccine&diff=152536053&oldid=152529761). His recommendation speaks for itself; describing it as "exercising caution" is an attempt to insert a leading phrase and POV. It implies that giving the vaccines in combination is somehow incautious, when in fact there is quite a bit of evidence that giving them in combination is safe, and none that it's harmful. MastCell Talk 20:10, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Maybe it would be reasonable to move Urabe Mumps strain encephalitis to MMR vaccine controversy after all, as it's somewhat brit-centric and the publicity there is connected to the media frenzy surrounding the possible MMR-autism connection. May this this would ease the "undue weight" -concerns presented above? -- Jkpjkp 07:46, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Quoted from above: An extended quote from the Cochrane library is given, saying that evidence for MMR should be stronger.' Sorry, but that's not at all what the Cochrane publication's review is saying. In "Main results", it says "We could not identify studies assessing the effectiveness of MMR that fulfilled our inclusion criteria". In other words, not a single study could be found which studied the effectiveness of the vaccine and fulfilled Cochrane's inclusion criteria. To put in another way, according to this Cochcrane review, there are no studies to vouch for the efficiency of the vaccine. Furthermore, the quote given is the whole text of "Author's conclusions", so it clearly isn't "out of context" or a mischaracterization of the report. A second quote from above: This completely mischaracterizes the Cochrane report, whose main result says exposure to MMR is unlikely to be associated with autism. Well, I don't agree with the claim of mischaracterization, but I agree that the unlikeliness of the connection according to Cochrane should be in the article. I added that to the Autism section. -- Jkpjkp 08:02, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
On the talk page, in several occasions, it's claimed that The consensus medical opinion or the medical consensus is poorly represented in the article. The article mentions in the overwhelming medical opinion in one place. If there's a medical consensus on something, it shouldn't be that hard to reference it. Without reference, claims of the medical consensus are original research, and not verifiable. If there's been a consensus meeting somewhere with the resulting consensus statement that the risks of using single vaccines increases the risk of infection and should be avoided, it shouldn't be that hard to provide a refence for that. If there's been a consensus meeting with the outcome that the benefits of the MMR vaccine are well researched and far outweigh the risks, a reference to that meeting and the statement should be put in. -- Jkpjkp 08:22, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Sources (collecting them here first):
... more to come. MastCell Talk 17:46, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
The line: "In the United States, the booster began in the mid 1990s. It is widely used around the world; since introduction of its earliest versions in the 1970s" does not square with the graph, that shows vaccine introduced circa 1962. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 38edward ( talk • contribs) 17:22, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
This is a key point for religious and principled people. Need at least some clear reference. 71.31.121.191 ( talk) 04:41, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Just wondering if a reference could be added after the quote "Today, the incidence of measles has fallen to less than 1% of people under the age of 30 in countries with routine childhood vaccination." as this is a statistic that requires reasoning. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.95.21.46 ( talk) 03:35, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Can somebody please replace the bmj references? They are not accessible without having to register and pay. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.182.88.212 ( talk) 11:30, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
Currently the article reads: "The second dose is not a booster; it is a dose to produce immunity in the small number of persons (2-5%) who fail to develop measles immunity after the first dose" which is supported by http://cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/combo-vaccines/mmr/faqs-mmr-hcp.htm However here http://www.immunisation.nhs.uk/Vaccines/MMR/The_vaccine/mmr_two_doses it claims that the second dose is to protect against all three diseases - not just measles. Which is true and should therefore be placed in the encyclopedia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.8.139.34 ( talk) 19:17, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Please provide any of the widely and abundantly available charts that show the historic levels of measles since the beginning of 1900's. Do NOT pretend they are all under copyright. This is public information. In under less than a year the entire pharmaceutical industry will be toppled. We have doctors all over the place coming forth in every country and the lack of safety studies has reached avalanche proportions. Millions of people will begin to sue all over the world. I'd suggest that admins that still suppress information here on wikipedia start hiding their IP addresses because there is going to be quite a few VERY angry people around when it gets out how much children have been hurt by mmr vaccines. This is a fair warning.
ANYone with half a brain can watch and make the rational conclusion from the available historic data of dozens of studies that the main cause of the drop in disease world wide since 1900 is access to enough and varied healthy food, clean water and better hygiene.
articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/04/10/wakefield-interview.aspx unreliable fringe source?
http://childhealthsafety.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/us-uk-diphtheria-1901-1965.gif
http://childhealthsafety.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/uk-deaths-1901-1965.gif
http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/graphs/
http://www.docmeade.com/historic-data-shows-vaccines-not-key-in-declines-in-death-from-disease/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxP5LEYg4LQ
Again, if you have any doubts you should take a look around in the "blogsphere". If you do not think people are protective of their children.. you've got another thing coming. The snowball stage is long since left. Were the people who argued for car safety anti-car ? Do you want to go back to a car without safety belt and a non-collapse-able steering wheel? Do we believe the pretence that current medical practice is the be all - end all of medical practice and knowledge? Will they not laugh at us a hundred years from now? Then it's time to start looking for rational and logical better practice. And listening to it.
One in four in the UK alone have already acquired the information, background and studies and have found the lack of safety studies, have found and seen the studies that showed that too much vaccines on children and mmr vaccines in particular had detectable negative effects on children. This is without ANY of the doctors who studied and found this to be the case even _publishing_ their findings in the media. In other words, not a single dollar has been spent to get this information out to large numbers of people. Another point: studies show that the people who currently oppose the mmr vaccines and the overuse of vaccines on too young children, overwhelmingly are people of education, people who talk to others, people who write and read, in other words the social leaders, the educated, the successful strata of society. Do not try to insult this group further. You will loose. And your credibility will go down the drain _rapidly_ with it, and it will stay in the drain. This is not an issue people will easily forget any time soon or take lightly.
Quick update - it hasn't. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.158.16.33 ( talk) 23:54, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
Or so says CNN, the Washington post and 500 something other news sources. Does anyone have access to the underlying BMJ article?-- Tznkai ( talk) 07:58, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
I just read this study: http://www.eurosurveillance.org/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleId=19854 And maybe this gives reasons why the vaccine is not safe. Yes I know this was re influenza - but the GSK vaccine MMR may also contain such substances. It is hinted at in the article, yet there is no info given. Such lies of ommision ALLOW people to be rightly suspicious of claims that there is no harm in the vaccine. When the formulation of these is changing it is not possible to say how effective a vaccine is on the population - that would be original research - which i guess GSK is doing, but not revealing publically.
Interesting court ruling recently, as reported by UK Daily Mail: [4]
Where there any articles in US papers regarding this? MrAnderson7 ( talk) 00:09, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
Recent edits to this article by one editor have biased it strongly towards the minority opinion that the MMR vaccine is unsafe. The consensus medical opinion should be documented fairly; there is good reason that it is the consensus. Here are some problems with the recent changes:
This one is for starters; more later. Eubulides 14:32, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Here are some more points.
This stuff belongs in MMR vaccine controversy, if it belongs anywhere. It does not belong here. Eubulides 15:26, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I have rewritten the affected sections to bring the article back to the mainstream point of view (while representing dissenting opinions as fairly as I can) and so have removed the NPOV template. Eubulides 21:58, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
There is evidence on Measles effectiveness in this article about MMR. Surely, Measles inoculation is not the point of this article but MMR. Could someone clarify? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.2.67.237 ( talk) 19:51, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/09/05/mmr-vaccine-deafness_n_1856929.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Cuk-hp%7Cdl5%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D125725 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.30.252.82 ( talk) 15:38, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
The following article says that The Wall Street Journal wrote an article reporting falsification of data about the attenuated Mumps virus portion of the vaccine. articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/07/23/merck-vaccine-fraud-story-buried.aspx unreliable fringe source? This quote from the above article explains it well:
Merck has actually been slapped with two class-action lawsuits over their mumps vaccine (which is part of the trivalent measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine). The first, which was initially filed in 2010, was unsealed late last month. Two former Merck virologists, Stephen Krahling and Joan Wlochowski, claim they witnessed first-hand the improper testing and falsification of data that was done to hide the fact that the vaccine has significantly declined in effectiveness4. By artificially inflating the efficacy, Merck was able to maintain its monopoly over the mumps vaccine market—and that is the main point of contention of the second class-action lawsuit, filed by Chatom Primary Care5. According to Courthouse News Service6: "Merck has known for a decade that its mumps vaccine is "far less effective" than it tells the government, and it falsified test results and sold millions of doses of "questionable efficacy," flooding and monopolizing the market... Chatom says in its antitrust complaint that Merck falsely claims its mumps vaccine is 95 percent effective. That claim "deterred and excluded competing manufacturers," who would enter the risky and expensive vaccine market only if they believed they could craft a better product... Merck is the only manufacturer licensed by the FDA to sell the mumps vaccine in United States, and if it could not show that the vaccine was 95 percent effective, it risked losing its lucrative monopoly... That's why Merck found it critically important to keep claiming such a high efficacy rate, the complaint states. And, Chatom claims, that's why Merck went to great lengths, including "manipulating its test procedures and falsifying the test results," to prop up the bogus figure, though it knew that the attenuated virus from which it created the vaccine had been altered over the years during the manufacturing process, and that the quality of the vaccine had degraded as a result."
The above text is cited as using info from the Courthouse News Service here: http://www.courthousenews.com/2012/06/27/47851.htm Zarkme ( talk) 23:07, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
In the intro, it is stated that MMR vaccine is recommended for adults with HIV. That is not precise. In some countries like Germany, MMR is recommended for adults born after 1970 according to their health department. 112.198.79.56 ( talk) 11:05, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
I have requested page protection. This is getting tiring and is a big time sink. -- Brangifer ( talk) 19:05, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
It appears to be a misunderstanding. The introduction reads, "The second dose is a dose to produce immunity in the small number of persons (2–5%) who fail to develop measles immunity after the first dose." The link given doesn't exist anymore but redirects to < http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/combo-vaccines/mmrv/vacopt-faqs-hcp.htm>, where the CDC reports, "About 2-5% of young children (i.e., between 200 and 500 per 10,000 children) will have at least one febrile seizure." The 2-5% figure is not used anywhere else and the link doesn't say anything about the vaccine failure rate. I think it should be edited to remove the "(2-5%)" but hesitate to do so in case that data was found at the original link. I'll leave it to the admins to decide but wanted to bring up the discrepancy. Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.112.18.34 ( talk) 05:51, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
Recent report shows the MMR vaccine causes autism in black children at 3 times normal rate, which ran on CNN and then was suppressed. So I came here to read the background and find the entirety of it has been scrubbed for no reason. I can't take-on the information control agents of the pharmaceutical industry by myself, but I think it's time for someone to say something and do something about the fact that there is information that would be of both interest and use to editors that is being hidden away by "archiving" it, for no compelling reason that is legitimate. The only compelling reason I can think of is that some people want to hide any negative information about (at least in this situation) the MMR vaccine. It looks bad. It looks suspicious. It looks biased, and it makes me question the motivations of anyone and everyone that participates in it. And note I'm not an anti-vaccine person. I believe in them, got my DPT, get my flu every year, am aware of the vocal minority that distrust vaccines and believe they have a right to have their say, and am opposed to anyone that would deny that right in order to maintain the brand image and profitability of the pharmaceutical industry. Jonny Quick ( talk) 21:31, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
Zad
68
17:44, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
But editors are not fire-proof, they make mistakes and have their own views. If they continue to express their personal opinion, such as "Your hatred of the pharmaceutical industry", then people have a right to answer back. Or is it that all opinions are equal - but the opinions of editors are more equal than others? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.96.113.37 ( talk) 22:48, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
This article sometimes reads like an advert for the MMR vaccine. For evidence questioning the possible side effects of the drug are down-played. And, as with this Talk page, people daring to ask questions are side-lined or insulted. And yet, despite a costly public relations drive, concerns remain. Given this, what is wrong with having a section highlighting evidence against the three-in-one vaccine? Or is Wikipedia totally sure about the safety of this drug? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.96.113.37 ( talk) 22:07, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
I'm noticing information from this article being used as "Gospel" in media reports about the current measles outbreak and I think that it is a good time to check it carefully for problems. The part about MMR2 being used for people who did not acquire immunity from MMR1------begs the question, (and I realize that could be considered an "incorrect use of "begs the ?", but I'm using it here anyhow), Why not just run an (immune antibody)IGA test to confirm or measure immunity BEFORE giving MMR2? Also, I'd like to see something here about IGA tests, since they are increasingly being utilized by the public and not a "secret" have been used for health-care workers routinely to check on immune-status. People who have been exposed to the current outbreak who have had MMR but not the second vaccination, (who were born after 1957), were urged in Arizona for example to quarantine themselves and other cautions. In light of these new articles, I think that all information in the article about MMR2 should be updated and checked with the best possible current references. 2601:C:6783:8416:445E:C7CC:A0E3:5D25 ( talk) 14:23, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
Can an editor figure out how to add this image to the article? Is it appropriate? It seems to be sourced well. [7] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.47.87.16 ( talk) 06:41, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
I agree it should be included -- but the article is hijacked by "pro vaccine" groups who believe whatever the pharmaceutical companies say. And they do not want other info. -- MarioMarco2009 ( talk) 22:50, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
Scientists have discovered that the MMR vaccine can produce febrile seizures in children with genetic variations in the genes IFI44L and CD46. CD46 is already known as a binding site for measles.Variations in the genes ANO3, SCN1A, SCN2A and TMEM16 are linked to an increased risk of febrile seizures in children, in which the MMR vaccine plays no role. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MarioMarco2009 ( talk • contribs) 22:52, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
It would seem that the terrible effects of Measles, Mumps and Rubella are no longer common knowledge. I would propose incorporating a section showing these effects. To ease comparison and referencing, it could be in the form of a table, comparing these effects to the effects of the vaccine. Rational Wiki (which I must say is terribly biased) has a table doing just that, which might be a good starting point. GeiwTeol 10:25, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
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Tgeorgescu: You reverted my changes on this article, and left a message on my talk page. The right place to talk about changes to this article is here, on it's own talk page. You say you reverted my edits I "added commentary, my own point of view, or my own personal analysis" this WP article. That's a straight out lie. I did nothing of the sort. I didn't add anything. All I did was remove one word: "false". That word is in breach of WP:POV. There should be no confusion about this; it's pretty easy to establish a NPOV: any qualification of anything or anyone in the text must be attributed to someone rather than left unattributed. If, for instance, the article says the claims (if any) are considered false, they must, to retain its NPOV, also cite who considers them false. WP is not a Ministry of Truth; it's an encyclopaedia. WisdomTooth3 ( talk) 22:15, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
When opinions are clearly factual, and the opposing views are fringe ones pushed mostly by unreliable sources, we state the facts and ignore the fringe by giving the fringe the weight it deserves, in some cases no mention at all. Framing factual opinions as mere "opinions" poisons the well and serves to undermine the factual nature of the content. It would serve to frame facts as mere opinion which can be ignored, and frame debunked conspiracy theories as factual. "Sky is blue" type facts need not be attributed, because that would debase the facts. -- BullRangifer ( talk) PingMe 07:46, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
Why is only jewish and muslim position worth mentioning? — Preceding unsigned comment added by ArmosNikita ( talk • contribs) 14:39, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
The article should ideally describe how long the vaccine protects its recipients from the diseases.
This paper: https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/197/7/950/798890
Persistence of Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Antibodies in an MMR-Vaccinated Cohort: A 20-Year Follow-up. Irja Davidkin, Sari Jokinen, Mia Broman, Pauli Leinikki, Heikki Peltola. The Journal of Infectious Diseases, Volume 197, Issue 7, 1 April 2008, Pages 950–956. https://doi.org/10.1086/528993
attempted to answer that question in one way. There may be other studies, either referenced from this one or independent, that we could also cite. Gnuish ( talk) 12:32, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
SHould we include Dr. Thompson's statements he made in 2014, regarding the fraud of the 2004 MMR-autism study? Dr. Thompson provided 10,000 legitimate documents to back up his claim. [1] We cannot trust any of the pharma-funded companies on vaccine safety, as liability was taken away from them as part of the 1986 National Vaccine Injury Act. 134.139.33.92 ( talk) 04:37, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
We should definitely include a source for Dr. Thompson's documents because the CDC can no longer be trusted to perform vaccine safety studies. No placebo based vaxxed vs. unvaxxed studies were conducted on the MMR vaccine. 134.139.33.92 ( talk) 04:43, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
If this is false, then why aren't you suing Del Bigtree or Andy Wakefield? Why isn't Merck suing them? Why isn't Senator Richard Pan suing them? 134.139.33.92 ( talk) 04:48, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
Show me a placebo study done by an independent organization not funded by the pharmaceutical industry that proves that the MMR vaccine does not cause autism. That means no CDC studies, no Institute of Medicine studies, no studies done by pharma-funded companies and manufacturers. 134.139.33.92 ( talk) 04:46, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
This is not a conspiracy theory. If you watch Vaxxed, you will find many of the 10,000 documents that Dr. Thompson uses to back up his claim on his phone call with Dr. Brian Hooker. Go do your research. If you are going to keep saying that this is false, then send a placebo study vaxxed vs. unvaxxed done by an independent organization not funded by the pharmaceutical industry. That means no studies from the IOM, the CDC, Merck, any vaccine manufacturer or organization funded by pharma. Thanks 134.139.33.92 ( talk) 04:52, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
The Washington Post gets a lot of its money from the pharmaceutical industry, so of course it is going to say bad things about Vaxxed. The co-author of SB277, Senator Ben Allen, watched Vaxxed and said that "Vaxxed is not an anti-vaccine film". Dr. Thompson still works at the CDC today. Send a placebo-based study comparing Vaxxed vs. Unvaxxed done by an independent organization or independent commission not funded by the pharmaceutical industry in any way. Until then, you guys are quoting vaccine safety science that does not exist. Thank you. 134.139.33.92 ( talk) 05:07, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
Read Dr. Hooker's official statement on Dr. William Thompson here. [2] More facts. 134.139.33.92 ( talk) 05:12, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
Then find a placebo study from an indpendent organization not funded by the pharmaceutical industry that proves that the MMR vaccine does not cause autism. That means no newspapers, nothing from the news agencies, the CDC, the IOM, the AAP, vaccine manufacturers, politicians funded by the pharmaceutical industry like Senator Richard Pan, and any other source that is funded by the pharmaceutical industry. Just because the CDC, the IOM, and almost all of the most reliable sources say that vaccines do not cause autism, does not mean it is true. They all are funded big amounts of money from the pharmaceutical industry, which is protected from liability when it comes to vaccines. Until you show an independent placebo-based vaxxed vs. unvaxxed study from a non-pharma-funded organization regarding the MMR vaccine and autism, you are just promoting pharma's propaganda. Go do your own research. Be smart about your research and don't be a vaxhole. Thanks 134.139.33.92 ( talk) 05:21, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
This is not characteristic for the CSU. This is a crisis here. Too many children are being hurt by these vaccines and until you can find a placebo vaxxed vs unvaxxed study from an independent organization not funded by the pharmaceutical industry, there is no proof that this vaccine is safe. That means no articles from news organizations, major medical journals, newspapers, the CDC, the IOM, the AAP, politicans funded by big pharma like Senator Richard Pan, and any other pharma-funded organization. 134.139.33.92 ( talk) 05:34, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
Unless you have the placebo vaxxed vs. unavaxxed science from a non-pharma-funded organization proving that vaccines are safe, don't tell me that vaccines are safe, because they are NOT. 134.139.33.92 ( talk) 05:34, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
But are the experts working for us, or for money from the pharmaceutical industry? Which companies are they working for?: I betcha most, if not all of them, are lobbied by the pharmaceutical industry in some way. Find that placebo-based study from an independent non-pharma-funded orgaqnization to back up your claim, or stop making these claims by these careless companies. 134.139.33.92 ( talk) 05:48, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
I will never back down and until you find actual evidence from a company who is not being funded by pharma at all, you are just saying things without reliable sources from non-pharma-funded companies! I stand for the truth, not for propaganda! It's better to get measles than to get a lifelong disability. 134.139.33.92 ( talk) 05:50, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
What do the doctors that focus specifically on autism, like Dr. John Green and Dr. Lynne R. Mielke, say? The vaccine can can autism. 134.139.33.92 ( talk) 05:53, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
But can the mainstream media be trusted? They received a good chunk of their money from the pharmaceutical industry, which is immune from vaccine injury liability. Why are there so many doctors, especially autism doctors that tell their patients that vaccines can cause autism. Look, Wikipedia should be a place where real truth with evidence from reliable sources that are not bought out by the pharmaceutical industry are releasedl, not a place to support a powerful industry's evil agenda. And until this mission is accomplished, I will never back down! 134.139.33.92 ( talk) 06:04, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
Why don't you say that on our end too. You cannot convince us, nor force us to believe what pharma and many news agencies say, because we, by heart, know the truth.. Go find a placebo study comparing vaxxed vs. unvaxxed from an independent organization not funded by the pharmaceutical industry that proves the vaccine is safe. Otherwise, stop talking like a vaxhole, a person who quotes vaccine safety science that does not exist. 134.139.33.92 ( talk) 06:10, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
The truth is that mainstream science is flawed when it comes to vaccines. If Del Bigtree and Andy Wakefield are sharing fraudulent data, why isn't Merck or any vaccine manufacturer going out to sue them? Go read those 10,000 documents Dr. Thompson put out. No, I will never accept their position on vaccines, because all of those studies by these pharma-funded companies are a fraud, according to producer Del Bigtree. Now go do your own research and stop being a vaxhole! We are never going away! 134.139.33.92 ( talk) 06:16, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
We are not pro-disease, we are pro-safe vaccines. These vaccines are NOT safe. Send a placebo based study vaxxed vs unvaxxed from an indpendent non-pharma-backed organization that proves the MMR vaccine does not cause autism. Otherwise, stop being a vaxhole and do your research! 134.139.33.92 ( talk) 06:19, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
References
Vaxxed is not a reliable source of information and has already been debunked. What you're suggesting is conspiracy. Turtleshell3 ( talk) 15:01, 30 September 2021 (UTC)