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This article claims, several times throughout the article, that there was no genocide in Kosovo. This is a radical minority opinion, not the general concensus among most scholars. The Hague is an international organization and I find it bizarre that they would claim that the genocide was baseless when such a large organization had Milosevic on trial for so long, and right as he was about to be convicted in a court of law, he died of a heart attack. The Hague's review of the case has pretty much confirmed Milosevic's guilt and this non-NPOV does not reflect that. On the contrary, with much hubris it argues the contrary. Take this text, for instance:
The fact that it's called called the "Kosovo war," when it lasted merely a few weeks further reflects its bias. I've added an NPOV label to the front and I've removed the editorial label (a grade of B) from this discussion page, because I doubt that this article today is what they reviewed and, if it was, then they need to review it again. 71.246.245.115 08:39, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I find it horribly sad that after the real war there is now a far more important war over who's version of history to believe. There is one indisputable fact: NATO had no real reason to intervene in Kosovo if there were NOT human rights violations which threatened to destabilize the region. Kosovo has no oil. If you want to ignore the theory of genocide, then if NATO was after an incredibly poor region in order to collect rock samples I suppose their intervention made sense. There were human rights violations. To deny that Milosevic deserved his title of "Butcher of the Balkans" is to be incredibly naive. Prior to committing genocide in truth he was committing cultural genocide in not allowing the people of Kosovo to teach their children in the Albanian language and supressing their culture with violence and fear. He and his cronies fabricated alleged attacks on churches in order to stir up religious hatred in Serbians. In reality, the Serbs and Albanians in the region were neighbors and friends prior to Milosevitc's hate campaign. Albanians affiliate themselves more with their ethnicity than with their religion. Afterall, with so many muslims, christians, orthodox christians and roman catholics forming the mix of Albanians, how can they afford to hate other religions? After Milosevic, some Serbs turned on their former friends.
This article addresses the KLA and makes it seem as if the whole organization was a shadowy operation led by drug dealers and prostitution bigwigs. How sad that the truth can be so distorted. I would like it explained to me how poor dirt farmers, shepherds, and the unemployed family men have been so transformed in public opinion as to be called criminals instead of recognized for what they truly were and are: people at the end of their rope, persecuted and poor, who finally rose up against their oppressors? Were our founding fathers also terrorists? Paul Revere, Ben Franklin and the like were fighting against taxation without representation. The ethnic Albanians were fighting against being dragged from their homes and beaten or killed for no other reason than their ethnicity. Representation is a luxury when you compare it to fighting for your life. Many point to some examples in the KLA and dismiss the whole as criminals. I am positive there is a criminal element in even the best of organizations (i.e. our own government officials taking bribes, the U.N. food scandal, etc.) The fact that there are criminals does not negate the whole and it does not reflect on the whole organization. Because Tom deLay is crooked does that mean the U.S. government is a criminal organization? I don't believe so. So write what you will. Keep skewing the facts. History will prevail no matter what means you employ to try and twist it. Years from now history will show the naysayers to be what we now consider Holocaust deniers to be. The worst humanity has to offer.
WHO EVER WROTE THIS HAS PROBABLY NEVER BEEN IN THE MILITARY OR FURTHER MORE DOES NOT I REPEAT DOES NOT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT,SCAN YOUR LANE AND MAKE SURE TO THANK THE MEN AND WOMEN WHO VOLUNTEER TO GO TO WAR AND PUT THEIR LIVES ON THE LINE EVERYDAY WHILE YOU SIT AT HOME AND TWIDDLE YOUR THUMBS AND PLAY ON THE COMPUTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 168.105.164.3 ( talk • contribs) 06:05, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
It deeply shocks me that any reference to civilian casualties in Serbia is almost hidden and the arthicle mostly focuses on NATOs legitimacy to bomb Serbia. My dear God, just browse the internet and you'll see over a thousand pictures of civilian deaths! And what about a reference to the killing of serbian JOURNALISTS in Belgrade's tv building????? As a journalist, serb, i feel insulted!
People were greedy and wanted the oil but the Americans won at last.
Something needs to be done to divide the overflowing external links.
- Pointless.
It seems to me that the debacle of Kosovo trails itself wherever the name itself is mentioned. I read the article and it seems pretty neutral and unbiassed to me. I dont think it necessary to taint 'everything' with inferiority issues, and trying to find truths molded according to national beliefs and myths. Leave the article as is -its pretty good
-lotsofissues 3/19/05
This page seems to have been quiet for a month or so, but the neutrality tag remains - I have read the discussion archives, but it is not clear to me from them what content remains disputed, if any. I would like to suggest that we either remove the tag, or generate a list of specific issues that we could potentially resolve in order to remove it.
2toise 12:35, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I just don't think that it's very helpful to claim that the topic in general is disputed - start at the beginning if necessary. 2toise 23:14, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)
It is not true that Russia vetoed a resolution or that there was any resolution to justify the NATO bombing. See http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2828985.stm where all the vetoes of Russia are discussed
Try reading this. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/201007.stm, I think this verifies what I was saying. User:G-Man
I dont think that it does. It is a resolution adopted before the negotiations between the Serbs and Albanians, and no other resolution was considered after that. It does not say anywhere that the majority of Security concil were for a stronger resolution authorising the use of force (that is what you claim). Also, China, as well as Russia abstained from even this resolution. The issue in resolution was not signing the agreement (a reason for the start of bombing in late March) but retreating of the Serbian forces, which subsequently happened.
Regarding the most recent edit: I don't know and don't think it's possible to find out how all Kosovar Albanians felt re: autonomy, independence, and Greater Albania. But it's definitely wrong to say that no Kosovar Albanians wanted unity with Albania, or that this desire by some Kosovar Albanians did not reflect itself in significant political movements. What did the KLA have to say about Greater Albania? What about Rugova? DanKeshet
I agree that some people in Kosovo were for greater Albania. However, it is wrong to say that Albanians always considered Kosovo as an integral part of Albania, the way Serbs did consider it integral part of Serbia. Albania didn't exist as a state until 1912. Serbia did and at the time after the Balkan wars it had conquered Kosovo, Sanjak and FRY Macedonia teritories - Kosovo was teritory of middle age Serbian kingdom, and thus Serbs did view it as a part of their state. Albanians however have their historical ties to Kosovo - rising of their nationalist movement in XIX century started in southern Kosovo under the Ottoman Empire. During the Balkan wars many Albanians were expelled by the Serbs. In WWI, Albanians took revenge when Serbian army was retreating over Albanian mountains. The origin of the conflict can be traced at least that far. During the WWII Greater Albania did exist and included most of Kosovo under faschist puppet regime. After the WWII Tito had promised Albanian communists that part of Kosovo will be allowed to join Albania. However, this did not happen, and Kosovo was set up as autonomous part of Serbia. The Albanian separatists had a goal of greater Albania, but more recently they are for Kosovo separate from Albania. Kosovo is much more developed than Albania (even today, and certainly during regime of Enver Hoxa), and Kosovo Albanians look down on Albanians from Albania proper. So, it is not entirely accurate to say that Albanians want Kosovo inside Albania - certainly, there is a dream of "Greater Albania" as it existed during WWII, and Serbs want to portray Albanian pretensions in this way, but it is not accurate description of the situation.
As for Rugova, he was always for independent Kosovo, as a separate state. KLA is mostly of this view too, although some KLA members certainly want all the Albanians inside one state. But even parts of Macedonia and Serbia proper are more likely to be seen as included in Kosovo, than in Albania as one state (there was some speculation about the exchange of teritories between Kosovo northern areas, even now populated by Serbs, and Presevo valley in Serbia proper).
Just a short notice:
- Yes, Albanians on Kossovo don`t think of coming in unity with Albanian, neither
Albania wants it (altough Albania was biggesr supporter of their rebellions, with KLA camps etc.). However, at Kossovo they wave Albanian flag. GREATER ALBANIA was a facist creation and never existed beside fascist ocuupation of 1941-5. I never heard that Tito had such a promise - he could always give it to Albania, but yes he had a wise policies including many Kossovo Albanians in gouverment and giving them strong half-independence status. Serbs don`t try to portray it like this it became obvious that Kossovo Albanians want indepedent state, but it is intresting to see what will they you do with such a small country, economicaly undeveloped if it happens.
- Who looks down on who. Altough Kossovo was better developed than Albania
during communist period, people living in Albiania Albania have better cultural standards and are more looking up to Italy and Western culture etc. so I think it is other way aroumd.
This only looks like Serbian propoganda and doesn't improve this already very POV article one bit. Also given the very low numbers of NATO losses the above is rather surprising. -- mav
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We are not talking about copyright law here. We are talking about the rules of Wikipedia. Are you a lawyer? If so, are you prepared to act in official capacity as counselor for Wikipedia if they are sued? Unless the answer is "Yes" to both questions, then I say the stolen text should be removed from the article. Chadloder 01:45 Apr 9, 2003 (UTC)
I think it romances a bit, but the general thrust of it is somewhere within cooee of an article I read a little while ago about the NATO air campaign, which as written by a distinguished defence analysist. I'll try to remember to dig it out at some stage. Tannin 11:56 Apr 9, 2003 (UTC)
Well, regardless of the NPOV discussion, there are two serious problems with the list of tactics:
-- Ansible
the goal of preservation of the Army was achieved, and Yugoslav forces were preserved in Kosovo despite the heavy bombing - it was loss of civilian infrastucture which mattered and forced Serbian withdrawal. So, it is important to deal with this aspect of the war.
The list goes. The AP are very aggressive about making sure people don't screw with their copyrighted material. I've heard of them going after people who rewrite parts of their text just enough to pass the Google test. They also say as much: "Copyright 2003 Associated Press. All right reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed." Also our license (the
GNU FDL) and the fact that we are a world-editable wiki puts serious constraints on our use of
fair use text (read
Wikipedia:Copyrights; look for "Fair use" headings). Basically we are limited to short, annotated and attributed quotes that help to illustrate the article and are clearly demarked as quotes so that other wikipedia editors know not to edit that text. And even if we could use the list under fair use we would have to attribute the source. Not doing so is a grave act of plagiarism. --
mav
Has the map of great Albania ut's place here ? Ericd 11:45 Apr 20, 2003 (UTC)
2toise 05:49, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)
I moved the map of Greater Albania to a new page of that name. Hope this is ok, it just doesn't seem to be really central to the Kosovo War page. I have no particular interest in writing the ga page, but think it needs some work. 2toise 06:04, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Does anyone else think there may be a NPOV problem with 3 pictures of unintended civilian casualities vs. one picture of an apparently intended target? -- stewacide 07:13 29 Jun 2003 (UTC)
This is the first time I have looked at this article, and it reads like Serb propaganda from beginning to end. I hate to think it was like before people started trying to NPOV it. I would suggest that someone knowledgeable and unbiased write a completely new article and then a vote be taken at Village Pump or somewhere on substituting it for this one, which is probably beyond redemption. Adam 07:35, 26 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I've been saying this for a long time, most of it is the work of User:Nikola Smolenski and User:Igor
who seem to see the wikipedia as a dispensary for Serb propaganda, numerous people have complained about them.
You should see the other articles they have worked on - like Kosovo and Prishtina which I have attempted to NPOV. In fact just about every article they have worked on reads like Serb propaganda.
I agree this article should be re-written from scratch G-Man 13:43, 26 Nov 2003 (UTC)
It's taken longer than I had hoped, but the rewrite is about ready now (basically covering the period from post-WW2 to the failure of Rambouillet in March 1999). See what you think - comments welcomed! -- ChrisO 01:34, 28 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Given that Kosovo has two recognised and legitimate names in Serbian and Albanian, I think it's only fair that both names should be given at the start of the article. Please don't remove the Albanian name. At some future point, I may also add the Albanian placenames of the towns mentioned in the article. -- ChrisO 23:28, 8 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Does anyone still dispute the neutrality of this page, I certainly dont, It's been improved dramatically from a NPOV perspective. Can the dispute header be taken down? G-Man 00:04, 16 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I've been skimming some posts here, and I want to say the real truth: -Balkan Peninsula was always populated by Albanians (they've been called Illyrians before) - In the very beggining they've been 100% christian, but then they've been conqured by Otoman Empire so they've been forced to accpet Islam religion (some located in mountanois sites managed to defend their religion so that how in kosovo, and in albania are christians too) but most of population had to convert to Islamic releigion as forced by Otoman Empire... - Serbs came from capathian montains- from russia, it's beleived that they are by orginin gypsies from russia, so they moved south for a better life they found a new tarritory with high culture, and very civillized nation, so they conqured a part of Illyrian land the southern part and they claim that kosovo is their mother, but its not true... a fact : why their language is similiar to Russain? Why Albanian language is entirely independent language showing no similiarities to any language.... (some with latin), this explains that this language is very old and so is spoken by Albanian certenly they must be very old nations with very old roots in Europe. I must say that serbian nation is very sadist, bloodsucker, its very obvios having on mind where they come from... Once again :"World dont buy Serbian politics, let Albanian nation live independed as it deserves to"
"The truth" can rarely be achieved by insults and racism. If that is the picture you would like the world to have of you and the Albanian nation so be it. Just remember that the truth is not about making statements or insulting people it is about knowing what really happened, and if you are a Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Atheist, Albanian, Serb, Gipsy ,Russian... you should hold it a very precious thing.
Non-Albanians were kicked out from Kosovo. So much for stopping the purported ethnic cleansing. Reality speaks volumes.
The Serbs were rammed an ultimatum they couldn't possibly accept (just like in WWI), Serbian elections after the war were sabotaged by external funding of Milosevic's opposition. Milosevic was expelled from Serbia illegally (Serbian constitution does not allow trial of Serbian citizens abroad for crimes commited in Serbia) by said opposition. Civilian targets were bombed. From what I have read, Serbia has been the soccer ball of the larger powers during the XXth century, not sadist bloodsuckers. I suspect this war shall go in the anals of history as pointless drivel that only made things worse. The flame of nationalism has been rekindled in Europe. We shall reap the winds we have sown.
I don't know if this article has any information you don't already have, if so merge, if not just redirect. [[User:Cohesion|cohesion ☎]] 20:28, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
As the article properly states in a NPOV, "The cause of the refugee exodus has been the subject of considerable controversy." So why does the previous paragraph convolute this by stating "fighting worsened and produced massive outflows"? Obviously fighting worsened, but exactly why there was a massive exodus is what is controversial and I have changed the sentence to reflect a more NPOV as the next paragraph follows. - Dejitarob 23:38, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Still the NPOV tag, two months later what about a new check? -- ThomasK 10:15, Dec 19, 2004 (UTC)
Page seems not bad by Wikipedia standards, except for being too long. Needs factoring. 193.60.78.118 15:33, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Despite the successful conclusion of the war, Kosovo exposed gaping weaknesses in NATO. It revealed how dependent the European members had become on the United States military - the vast majority of combat and non-combat operations were dependent on US involvement - and highlighted the lack of precision weapons in European armories. It also served to discredit NATO in the eyes of the US military and American right-wingers, with the alliance's cumbersome agreement-by-consensus arrangements blamed for hobbling the campaign. The experience of Kosovo was a crucial factor in the United States deciding to go it alone in Afghanistan in 2001 and Iraq in 2003, preferring instead to build "coalitions of the willing" rather than rely on its existing alliances.
(my emphasis)
Is this paragraph NPOV? I've highligted the portions which I think are patricularly bad.. I'm not familiar with the specifics of the effects of this conflict on us foreign policy motivations, but certainly America's military supermacy wasn't questioned before the war?
Call me crazy but, an even more crucial factor in us deciding to go it alone is that other disagreed with the war?
I'm going to go ahead and edit this to take out what I think is blatantly untrue. -- Freshraisin 10:17, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)
It is true that the USA provided most of the troops, it is not true that that the USA did go it alone in either conflict.
Brinlarr
Is it just me, or is that first link on the list a little...crazy? I don't see any need to remove it, but I don't see any need for it to be at the top of the list, above much more useful sources.
I retitled the link to the London Observer headline; yes it should be moved down the list somewhat. Nobs 20:18, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
"Some right-wing and military critics in the US also blamed the alliance's agreement-by-consensus arrangements for hobbling and slowing down the campaign."
Shouldn't this just be condensed as 'Some critics' instead of the 'right-wing and military' as there are certainly critics who do not fit into those characterizations who did whats described. Personally I don't see the sentence being useful, but if its included it should at least be accurate. If there are those that would say only 'right-wing and military' were the critics, I would like to see a source. 172.131.58.54 07:35, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"Many on the left of Western politics saw the NATO campaign as a sign of US aggression and imperialism, while right-wingers criticised it as being irrelevant to their countries' national security interests."
This is part of my earlier comment, but is 'right-wingers' really an encyclopedic term? Is there a better way of saying this? 172.131.58.54 07:38, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
i'm from kosova and there should be no neutreality in this discussion. it was a war. people were killed. what is there to be neutral about ??!
Whoever you are, kid, you should realize that Wikipedia has a neutral policy. WW1 and WW2 killed people, lots more than your little "balkan conflict" in the late 90s...and guess what, the articles are neutral. Look at is this way, if we biased it in your way, it would be unfair to opposing viewpoints. -Alex, 12.220.157.93 00:52, 25 January 2006 (UTC).
We need someone to step in and write a NPOV paragraph. I disagree that it's "plain facts" listed in the last revert are as plain as stated. -- GABaker 2231 12 Dec 2005 UTC.
Which part do you think needs to be backed up with a reference?
I add the Tag to merge with Kosovo crisis. Bonaparte talk 12:28, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
(As for The General's comments - Simply Google them, it's not hard... And I'm not going to do it for you.)
By the way User:CJK if you revert my edits again without discussion here on the discussion page I will ask a mod for a temporary block. Got that? - Nikos.
User:DenisRS keeps trying to add the following lines to the intro: "Even though the war broke international laws that were signed by NATO members, and was directly classified as an invasion and a crime against humanity by UNO laws, no officials of the responsible NATO countries ever went through the international Tribunal." This is an extremely contentious POV. DenisRS provides no sources, attributes the claim to nobody and states it as an undisputed fact, which it plainly isn't. What's more, it's inappropriate for the intro section anyway: the intro summarises the sequence of events, not whether any of the sides were right or wrong in what they did. It's nothing more than POV-pushing and isn't remotely compliant with WP:CITE or WP:NPOV. It doesn't belong in the article. -- ChrisO 00:53, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
It is severe violation of Wikipedia principles. The sources for the line http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:ChrisO trying to delete are already in the list of sources that is at the bottom of the article. This all is just because this user fails to actually read those sources (he could go to a libriary at least).
ChrisO tries to simply delete information he personally does not like, instead of offering alternative information with source (as it was supposed by Wikipedia concept in case if there is contradicting information), like that would assert that unsanctioned by UNO war is legal, and not aggression, and the responsible parties of that war are not subject of international Tribunal for the crime against humanity for being aggressors. DenisRS 02:13, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Also, the line "Even though the war broke international laws that were signed by NATO members, and was directly classified as an invasion and a crime against humanity by UNO laws, no officials of the responsible NATO countries ever went through the international Tribunal" does not contain any POV, but only is the ascertaining of the legal status of the war. It says nothing on whether the war was fair or not in the essense, it says only the fact that the war was illegal and the responsible people for this crime -- breaking (international) laws is a crime -- never actually went through prosecution, international tribunal. The matter of legality of the war is cornerstone thing of the event and it can not be considered as secondary. So it should not be moved lower in the article. DenisRS 02:17, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Again -- any war without UNO sanction is illegal, and this is not my opinion, but ascrtaining of the fact that is in the sources that listed at the bottom of the article. According to Wikipedia principles, it is not allowed to ask for any additional sources than already are listed. And it is not allowable to ask sources for obvious things. For example, you could ask source that "Kosovo war" is actually called "war" in this article, or why G.W. Bush Jr. is called "President". Nonsense is not allowed.
However, just for the sake of this formalism nonsense -- if some users want it too badly -- I found the direct link to UNO documents: 1) http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/RESOLUTION/GEN/NR0/068/54/IMG/NR006854.pdf
2) http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/summaries/7_5.htm 3) http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/guide/7_5.htm
Again, I did not have to do this, because the information I protect comes from sources that already listed properly.
It is matter of you or ChrisO to question that information if you would ever have chance to find another version about legality of the war. DenisRS 02:57, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/summaries/7_5.htm#_ftnref9
Can anyone cite links to officially declared losses by NATO forces? There seems to be a lot of misinformation cirulating on the Net. -- Mzabaluev 07:36, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
THE PEOPLE WHO WROTE THIS ARE WRONG THERE WAS NO 82ND AIRBORNE IN KOSOVO IT WAS 4/29 FIELD ARTILLERY OUT OF BAUMHOLDER GERMANY AND ALSO 2/3FIELD ARTILLERY OUT OF GIESSEN GERMANY YES IT IS A FACT THAT MOLOSEVIC WAS A MANIAC ALL FOR KILLING AND NOT HELPING THE PEOPLE IN WHICH HE LED BUT BECAUSE OF THE SACRIFICE OF OUR US MILITARY AND MOSTLY THE UNITS ABOVE HE IS NO LONGER IN CHARGE SINCERELY ONE SOLDIER WHO WAS THERE HOOOOOOOOAH —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 168.105.164.3 ( talk • contribs) 05:58, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I'm new to the Kosovo War page. I'm an economist by training with a degree in European Studies as well. As a Swede, hopefully I'll be able to provide a nonpartizan voice on the Talk page. Below is my first suggestion for improvement.
The article is not very detailed regarding the possible reasons for Milosevic to (most likely) have instigated the ethnic cleansing at the start of the war.
Currently the article reads: "It is unclear what Milošević may have hoped to achieve by expelling Kosovo's Albanian inhabitants. One possibility is that he wished to replace the Albanian population with refugee Serbs from Bosnia and Croatia, thereby achieving the "Serbianization" of the province."
In fact, the main reasons are likely to have been
(1) to create a logistical/humanitarian problem for Nato, thereby delaying or hindering a ground attack, and
(2) to remove a source of local support for the KLA, akin to the US strategy in S. Vietnam of creating 'strategic hamlets'.
What do you think about adding these as additional possible reasons for the ethnic cleansing campaign? I haven't been able to find any direct sources, but neither have I been able to find any sources for the (in my mind) less likely reason of wanting to "Serbianize" the province (how would he do that in the middle of a war?).
Also, should any mention be made of the connection between the breakdown of the Rambouillet negotiations and the impending Nato attack and the expulsion of the albanians? Osli73 15:50, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for your comments Ilir pz. Again, I'd would like to have some more thoughts on this. As the ethnic cleansing played a very big part in motivating/justifying Nato's attack on Yugoslavia, I believe that understanding what motivated Milosevic to order it is, or should be, of great interest to readers of the article. So far, all we have is speculation. As I believed the motive currently presented in the article, that the aim was to Serbianize the province, is unlikely I proposed two hypothesis of my own. However, I would very much appreciate it if anyone had any references to academic studies or other studies.
Osli73 22:30, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Again, I find it very strange that this issue not more well researched or documented. Arguments seem to range from it was the KLA and Nato bombing which drove the refugees out to it all being part of a Serbian master plan. Does anyone have any suggestions?
Osli73 11:19, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
We do not need to discuss this. Only a Serb can make such egregious claims. And for people who don't know: you need not edit any articles about Kosovo because you don't know jack about what happen. Ferick 17:13, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
"Then, in January 1998, the Western powers got a boost when first they installed Milorad Dodik to be Republika Srpska's prime minister, and then they got Milo Djukanovic installed as President of Montenegro despite serious election irregularities there".?
"A massive fight at the Jashari compound led to the deaths of 60 KLA and supporters in the compound".? The whole article reads as if it came directly from a pamphlet writen by the government of Serbia. This will have to change, not just in tone but in substance.. Ferick 17:36, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
This article holds more then one ridiculous statements.The whole thing is ridiculous! Ferick 02:26, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
The tone of the article is, so to speak, Serb-Friendly. Ferick 13:32, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Ferick, could you please highlight what parts of the text/article are "Serb friendly". Osli73 11:02, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
wheres your proof of mujahideen in kosovo, an article about bosnia, how stupid is that, there was no mujahideen in kosovo
I believe I read that there is no evidence of bodies being disposes of in the mine. Can anyone verify?
There is only a small reference to Task Force Hawk in the Bombing campaign but not even by name.
The battalion secured Apache Attack helicopter refueling sites and a small team forward deployed to the Albania/Kosovo border to identify targets for Allied/NATO airstrikes.
Task Force Hawk was a battlion of Apaches with support unit as well as infantry, armor, field artillary, MP, and other units. I believe their was a Frontline special on Task Force Hawk a few years ago but I haven't see it.
Sam D Ware 16:21, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Is there any person so dumb that he could believe it? Human body is not so etherial that it could dissolve in the water. Please, use your common sense.
EDIT BY GUEST:
CIA and the British Intelligence have found bodies in the water.
The Bosnian War article has a good section on casualties (both civilian and military) for the conflict as a whole and for the different sides. Is there any such information for the Kosovo War? I see links to all kinds of sources regarding deaths from NATO bombing but nothing on deaths from the war on the ground. Is there a source for the 10,000 killed Albanians? Is there any source at all for the number of killed Serbs? Roma and other?
It think it would be nice to get a nice comprehensive table of estimated and confirmed casualties. Osli73 23:20, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Is there anyone who has any sources on the number of civilians and military killed in the ground war in Kosovo? I haven't been able to find anything other than the 10,000 estimate, and even for that figure there is no information about how it was calculated, how many are military and civilian, how many are Serbs, Albanians and others. Anyone? Osli73 11:07, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Just a quick web search found the following articles/discussions of the numbers killed. I don't know how good the sources are but most seem to say the following:
The 'sources' I found were:
Osli73 11:34, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Ilir, I've found a couple of sources which might be of some help:
I think these sources could be used to improve the article.
Some more sources which could be useful:
Osli73 08:55, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
First of all back then I think those people called themselves Yugoslavs, not Serbs, so let's put these things into a historical perspective. Second of all, if links are dubious in nature we can always post that it's dubious, but both sides must be heard. I am veteran of the Iraq war and I am sick of all the damn politicians and all the BS out there, way too many innocent died during Nato attacks and during "Iraqi Freedom" operation, remember the first casualty in war is the truth, I am also a historian and I was the first one to find out about NATO casualties, it was not here before, the ah-64 chopper, may 5th, wow there are so many mistakes, but I am not going to dwell into ethnic bs who is right or wrong, everybody is right or wrong to a certain point and I have no time for these games. However, certain things need correcting and certain web sites must be available on the main page. E.g. http://www.aeronautics.ru/natodown.htm As far as you Mieciu VANDAL Kapusta go... It was shot down but NATO and its forces never wanted to admit to it, would you ? They wanted to show how powerful they are. If a plane explodes in the air and there is a ball of fire, trust me, it was shot down... Now... these sites might be dubious or not neutral, but there is lot of info here we need to go over...
http://www.aeronautics.ru/nws001/crashes01.htm
Sorry to be pedantic, but I'm pretty sure that Serbs always called themselves Serbs, in much the same way as Scottish people would refer to themselves as Scottish, rather that British.
Davu.leon 14:30, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
SOLDIER KILLED BY MINE EIGHTH US CASUALITY IN KOSOVO WASHINGTON, DEC 16 (KUNA) -- A 26-YEAR-OLD U.S. ARMY SOLDIER WHO WAS FATALLY INJURED BY A LAND MINE LAST NIGHT WAS THE EIGHTH AMERICAN CASUALITY IN KOSOVO, THE PENTAGON SAID ON THURSDAY. PENTAGON SPOKESMAN KENNETH BACON SAID THE VICTIM, STAFF SERGEANT JOSEPH E. SUPONCIC, DIED ON THURSDAY AT A MILITARY BASE HOSPITAL FROM HIS INJURIES. BACON SAID THAT THE SERGEANT, WHO WAS A MEMBER OF U.S. SPECIAL FORCES, WAS RIDING IN AN ARMORED HUMVEE WHEN THE ACCIDENT HAPPENED. HE SAID THE DRIVER OF THE VEHICLE WAS TREATED AND RELEASED. "THEY WERE DRIVING ALONG A ROAD THAT WAS THOUGHT TO HAVE BEEN CLEARED OF LAND MINES, BUT THIS IS AN AREA WHERE THERE ARE MANY LAND MINES," BACON SAID. "IT IS OBVIOUSLY A TRAGIC LOSS FOR HIS FAMILY," HE SAID. BACON SAID THE HUMVEE HIT THE MINE IN THE RUSSIAN SECTION OF THE AMERICAN SECTOR NEAR A TOWN CALLED KAMENICA. THE PENTAGON SPOKESMAN SAID THAT SEVERAL AMERICANS HAVE DIED IN TRAFFIC ACCIDENTS IN THE WAR-TORN YUGOSLAV PROVINCE. ONE SOLDIER WAS ELECTROCUTED, HE SAID. BACON ADDED THAT TWO OTHERS WERE SHOT, BUT THEIR DEATHS MAY HAVE BEEN POSSIBLE SUICIDES. THE SHOOTINGS ARE STILL UNDER INVESTIGATION, HE SAID. THERE HAVE BEEN NO AMERICAN CASUALTIES RELATED TO COMBAT IN KOSOVO. (PICK UP PREVIOUS) JF.AJ KUNA 162317 Dec 99NNNN
http://www.kuna.net.kw/NewsAgenciesPublicSite/ArticleDetails.aspx?Language=en&id=1047762
Why does the article say 2 non-combat deaths? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.24.252.14 ( talk) 06:40, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
You said these pages are not working, may be your browser from your country can not access them...
The article says that the crash will not postpone deployment of apache's to the crisis area. But how many of them were EVER deployed to combat? The answer is NONE! It was estimated that there would be huge losses if the helicopters were engaged. So, if anyone knows that even a single one was sent to war, please write. 89.216.173.210 01:19, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
~:This event did not happen during the Kosovo war. It happened after the war so the place of this link is somewhere else. Mieciu K 19:51, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
The link clearly indicates the casualty of the conflict.
Nie, kosovo war ended on june 11 and you had it until 10th all the time. The chopper exploded after it was hit, this was top of the line chopper, they do not malfunction and explode in the air out of the blue, rozumiesz?
You are a complete idiot, FOR 2 YEARS THE END OF WAR ON THIS SITE WAS JUNE 10th, so I changed it to June 11th, stop putting words into my mouth dude, it seems to me you are part of nato and it seems you were there... I am not going to argue with you forever. I made discoveries not you, you want to revert, fine, I will be back to revert it to the appropriate position. What do you know about army and war strategy and procedure, nic, nothing. It was nato's strategy not to admit to anything to look invincible, this was shot down, search and look better, I explained already and it was 80 kilometers from Tirana, that means close to the border, Yugo forces were inside Albania, in order to stop KLA from entering and stopping them before it was too late. This is what it is, like it or not. And I dont care about f117.Did I mention that?
You are a confused person, because you are reverting what is given and explained, as you are doing with your own Katyn in Poland, calling you idiot is not vandalism because you are disrespecting other people's time, period, I told you 10 times I do not have time to explain you self evident truth, besides, I did not mention serbs claim, and assuming a serb claimed it crashed or not, how do we know he is neutral... I SAID AGAIN FOR THE FINAL TIME... I MENTIONED WHAT BOTH SIDES CLAIM THEY DID IT, AND of course on serbian sides they will claim they bombed it Mr. hypocrite, but I am not including their side because it's obvious they will report what they think and nato will report what they think, so think straight for a moment...
If somebody can check how many soldiers Yugos lost, according to my friend who is an analyst for CIA headquarters he claims Yugos reported between 560-600, but not 1000 and that was verified, I do not have time to search for that and then get reverted, at any rate, there were 3000 dead civilians across the land, but I am not sure if that included albanians killed by nato bombs or clusters.
I had relatives in the Yugoslav military at the time. Losses were light because they spent most of their time hiding in the mountains. Barracks that were bombed had been vacated long before. Also, my uncle flew a MEDICAL helicopter with a Red Cross emblem and was shot down by a NATO warplane. Fortunately, he survived. How's that for following the Geneva Convention? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
128.227.69.56 (
talk) 21:27, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Every time I've tried to explain this guy can not and does not want to cooperate and it seems to me, this guy is not neutral in any way. The above is a very good explanation,due to my time constraint... I can not write 10 paragraphs every day, in reply, he simply replied in a very rude and ignorant way... can I say that in English ? If he can say it in Polish, it will make some sense, so far, he has been vandalizing this page and he should be stopped asap.
I don't think you have read any one of those articles. Mieciu K 22:35, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes I read them and you must learn from them, because above you told me I should write in English, clearly shows you lack of ethics, values, standards, understanding and so much, your reversals have no meanint and they are clearly not neutral and you keep on inventing new stories every time I revert it or even correct it... but when I ask about other topics, you do not have a clue... so, learn everything from the beginning, here's a thought, go back to kindergarten or ask your parents to reteach you manners. I said my peace, you can say what you want, hey I can give you 10 more links on the above, still, that does not help the situation, I have a feeling you were one of those nato forces? Your country was involved.
==Hmmm... this guy is a complete mess, again now he tells us the bombing ended on July 10th, this man is sick.
Correction, calling you sick after you can listen to a raeson is not an argument (true enough) but I am only stressing the point that this is true, you are a sick man.
What you are doing (calling me a sick man) has a name... its called trolling. And of course it is also rude. Mieciu K 23:04, 22 June 2006 (UTC) http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20010823/ai_n14418706 - 70 Kfor soldiers dead from 1999-2001 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.24.252.14 ( talk) 06:33, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
The page has now been protected to force all involved parties to use the talk page to resolve disputes, rather than furthering this disruptive edit war. Once you have reached an agreement and protection is no longer necessary, please let me know or request unprotection. Thanks. AmiDaniel ( talk) 01:57, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
This confused individual has been putting words into my mouth and into others, first he claims war ended on July 11th, then he removes all other info, you have to leave it like it was when Chopper 64 was shot down and 2 american servicemen killed, I never said they were shot down but I gave my best and most accurate assumption what might have happened SINCE NATO NEVER CONFIRMED IT OR DENIED, and as time went by they just did not want tot alk about, what does that tell you? It's time Mieciu K is blocked forever from wikipedia, since his country, poland, was part of nato attacks and he wants to look invincible. So it's time you unprotect it, remember this guy is going out of normal conversaion and he uses non-sense logic, comparing other things to God knows what and then putting words into my mouth, clearly very ignorant, when he replies like... Speak English and when I ask about other things to be looked at, he can never answer because he just does not know it. As you can see, the best version is in the link below. Let's have this done right without vandals like Mieciu. He has time for these games and I am sure his answer will make sense but only to a point. Again, both versions must be explained, what might have happened.
As you can see in his answers above, there will be no agreement with this confused individual
I do my best to follow these rules and guidelines:
The bombing stopped on June 10th, but the war came to an end on June 11th, let's get this straight.
It was on that day that both NATO and Milosevic declared the end of war, just because bombing stopped does not mean that many other secret operations were over. http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FA0A1FFB3C5C0C728DDDAF0894D1494D81&n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fPeople%2fS%2fSolana%2c%20Javier Just because bombing on Warsaw in September 1939 stopped, that did not mean the war was over, remember the 63 days uprising in Warsaw, hell on earth in Aug 1944, still, was that the end of war? Just because you find something on google or it's popular opinioN DOES NOT MEAN IT'S TRUE.
"On 10 June 1999, after an air campaign lasting seventy-seven days, NATO Secretary General Javier Solana announced that he had instructed General Wesley Clark, Supreme Allied Commander Europe, temporarily to suspend NATO's air operations against Yugoslavia. This decision was taken after consultations with the North Atlantic Council and confirmation from General Clark that the full withdrawal of Yugoslav forces from Kosovo had begun. The withdrawal was in accordance with a Military-Technical Agreement concluded between NATO and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia on the evening of 9 June. The agreement was signed by Lt. General Sir Michael Jackson, on behalf of NATO, and by Colonel General Svetozar Marjanovic of the Yugoslav Army and Lieutenant General Obrad Stevanovic of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, on behalf of the Governments of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and Republic of Serbia. The withdrawal was also consistent with the agreement between the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the European Union and Russian special envoys, President Ahtisaari of Finland and Mr. Victor Chernomyrdin, former Prime Minister of Russia, reached on 3 June." So in conclusion an agreement was reached on the 9th, combat stopped on the 10th, so (currently) I do not see areason why we should say that the war ended on the 11th. Any more arguments/links top support your theory? I looked thrue serbian govermrnt websites (in english and serbian) but I was unable to find any info on the day that the war ended according to Yugoslavia, or about shooting down an AH-64 on May the 5th 1999. Mieciu K 23:04, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Did you just say go on serbian government website, they talk about their life, things that happened today, not about 1999 tragedy, you are a vandal and this is true. http://www.balkan-archive.org.yu/kosovo_crisis/nato/ Sites like this claim, prooven or not it was shot down, but I already explained that, you are beating around the bush again and again and again and repeating same things but in a different manner and way... Ok, war ended on June 11th and bombing is something else, it's obvious you do not understand anything.
"BELGRADE, Yugoslavia (AP) - Two American Apache crew members were killed during a training mission Wednesday when their helicopter crashed in Albania, the U.S. European Command said. The deaths were the first NATO casualties in the air campaign against Yugoslavia. The command said there were no initial indications of hostile fire in the crash, 47 miles northeast of the Albanian capital of Tirana, and the cause of the crash was not immediately known. The names of the two crewmen were not released pending notification of next of kin. The crash was the second time an Apache helicopter has gone down during a training mission in Albania. The first copter crashed April 26 as NATO prepared to put the U.S. attack helicopters into action against Serb forces in Kosovo. Its crewmen escaped with cuts and bruises. See http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=2559431157-01d" And of course the 1999 Kosovo war was a tragedy, a tragedy caused by the stupidity of a dictator and his-half blind serbian nationalist friends who started a war (to keep in power) that was lost long before it started. You can mock my wikipedia user name but out of the two of us at least I have the courage to log in and sign my posts. What's wrong with you that you don't want to log in and sign your comments the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia is chasing you or something? Mieciu K 19:35, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
First of all, I am an american, born and raised in Indiana, I lived in croatia 4 years when I was studying, you are a vandal and a criminal, nothing but garbage, put words in my mouth I AM A HISTORIAN WITH A DEGREE IN HISTORY, you are nothing, I am not pro or a con against what happened in the war, my stuff was neutral, the above attack clearly shows your one sided story, it clearly shows you are part of nato animals who killed over 3000 civilians, almost half of those albanians, those they supposedly came to protect, ok, if you have the courage, give me your full freaking name and address in poland, so I can visit you one of these days, you are not being objective or neutral with pure garbage above. Nothing but vandalism and hate and false attacks and then some...—Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.99.2.90 ( talk)
You tell him that, he is not doing anything about it and article is wrong, period, i simply asked him if he has courage to talk about it and he does not do anything about it, i am historian and i know what i am saying, ok...
First of all, in my reply above i say... "I simply asked him if he has courage to talk" now if that is a threat of any kind, including physical...you people need to include that in the new webster dictionary. And the above statement "I served in a Polish Elite unit" Tells me that this person is biased to neutrality WHICH I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO ESTABLISH HERE FROM THE VERY BEGINNING. His intentions and slick lawyer talk (prooving guilty before even going to court or assuming innocence) clearly indicates is objectivity towards NATO side.
Citations
Read my replies, read how neutral they could be, Kafziel you are not doing a good job as an administrator, when I tell you war was over on June 11th, legally, that's when it was ended,t he bombing can stop On May 11th, that does not mean it's over. Your statements about me being the president... It also makes no sense because if I were the president I would not bother wasting my time (as I have already done so, a lot) here, talking to people who do not grasp the point citation or not and it's not about citations. But about truth. Attacking me like Mieciu did is vandalistic behavior, putting words into my mouth, not to mention claiming July 11th as the end of war (above) and creating his side of events. Great, keep your own dates!
Perhaps when this article is unlocked, the correct NATO losses could be put in. (46 Aircrafts, 6 helicopters, 8 unmanned aircraft, 182 cruise missles). [3]
I'd like in reference to the shooting down of the AH-64 a real source if at all possible? The claim which is copied and pasted almost word for word from a website doesn't really back up its sources, it looks like a bunch of hearsay.
NATO losses were underreported because the war was not popular in the general public in NATO countries. My relatives in Yugoslavia found pieces of aircraft litering their fields nearly everyday- they couldn't have been Yugoslav planes since the majority that were lost were destroyed on the ground. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
128.227.69.56 (
talk) 21:30, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Hello. I dont know much about this war. New Zealand (my country) served in it, but primarily as Peace Keeping forces.
However this article seems to have a slight bias against serbs. Serbs, last time I checked, are a nationality/ethnicity and while some organizations of serbian nationality committed atrocities, by consistently referring to them as "the serbs" this article smeels definitely of racist POV.
Its like saying that "the Sunni's" are the cause of all the troubles in iraq, or hating "the American's" for the actions of their government. Is someone addressing this? It seems we need a historian from a definably neutral country, or at least a qualified international historian. Cheers, -- Havoc8844 02:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
An interesting point. The question is, what do you refer to the Serbian forces involved in the conflict as? JNA/VJ? True, there were some involved, but many of the forces of the ground, Serbian paramilitaries, were recruited from ultra-nationalist and occasionaly criminal gangs. There were also Kosovar Serbian police, (out of uniform) who were supplied with weapons and vitual carte-blanche to carry out intimidation, robbery and murder. This is not by any means to say that all Serbs, inside of Kosovo or in Serbia proper, were in favour of the war, or even of Milosevic himself, and it is not an attempt to whitewash the activities of the UCK, some of whom were undoubtedly involved in actions of dubious legality and morality. The simple fact of the matter, however, is that this was a conflict between Serbs and Albanians, both vying for claim to a land which they have traditionally each regarded as their birthright, and sole possesion. The use of the term Serb here is therefore, while certainly distasteful to those Serbs who wish in no way to be connected to the policies and activities of the Milosevic government, nevertheless justifiable without immediate assumption of racist undertone. Davu.leon 14:52, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I live in Serbia, and I must say I'm sure over half the nation was against Milosevic. There were protests virtually all of the time between 1996-2000, when he was forced to give up being president after a massive protest. The era of Milosevic is undoubtebly the WORST in Serbian history period. It's true that some Serbs killed Albanians (and some still do), but it's also true that some Albanians killed Serbs (which some still do). There are those guilty on both sides, not just Serbs or just Albanians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.216.128.197 ( talk) 19:43, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Of course this article is biased. For example, there is little or no mention of contracting claims to the popular (and false) notion of "ethnic cleansing". Wikipedia, while I love it so, is primarily written from a Western cultural viewpoint. I live in the US, and what was reported in the media was predominantly anti-Serb and pro-Albanian, probably because it would have been bad form for NATO to side with a dictator (Slobodan Milosevic). The actions of radical Serbs like the paramilitary gangster "Arkan" and Bosnian Serb generals during the civil war have sullied the image of Serbs in the West. Your average citizen who casually follows the news will take the side of whatever is reported to him or her, in this case, anti-Serb. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
128.227.69.56 (
talk) 21:20, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
The casualties listed are fairly accurate, though I remember the official statement in Serbian press that listed around 700 (not 1.000) Yugoslav combat fatalities. I think the civilian number was 5.000 (either inflated or possibly true if Albanians were counted in my oppinion). 13 destroyed tanks (of which only 6 declared lost due to NATO bombing - the rest were not explained but were probably lost to the KLA). The article does not mention KLA losses, however, that probably exceeded 1.000 men. It should be noted that this was not merely a bombing campaign, but also a low-intensity ground war on Kosovo between the Yugoslav Army & Police and the KLA.
As for NATO losses - the article f-117 mentions an additional f-117 heavily damaged and written-off.
Veljko Stevanovich 2. 7. 2006. 01:30 UTC+1
So Veljko, how to contact you?Ok, how many planes did your people shot down, also the last official day of war was June 11th when both Milosevic and Nato claimed it's over, signed, sealed and delivered, right? Just because bombs stop falling, does not mean it's the end.
When this page is unprotected, would someone please disabiguate "Serbian [[Orthodox Church]]" to "[[Serbian Orthodox Church]]"? Thanks! Disambiguation link repair - You can help! -- Iggle 06:33, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
As far as I can tell, there has been no substantive discussion on the differences over the past two weeks. I do notice however that the discussions further back than that were at times grossly uncivil. I request that the editors pursue their differences with civility in an attempt to find consensus. Attacks, such as acccusations of lying, "vandalistic behavior" and the like, are unacceptable and may have to be dealt with, if the participants cannot take a hint, by more pragmatic means.
I'm unprotecting this article. Happy editing. -- Tony Sidaway 22:34, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
I believe that both sides lie about their looses and that’s normal in war. Serbian side purposely exaggerated NATO looses from reasons of moral and NATO as usual never recognize their looses. It’s not the first time. As always the truth is somewhere in between.
As military freak I have some knowledge about modern warfare. In my opinion, Yugoslav air defense shot down maybe 10 NATO aircrafts and damaged between 40-60 aircrafts. The problem with confirming looses is that Yugoslav air space is very small and except in two cases (F-117 and F-16) the only proof of hits were peaces of various NATO aircrafts scattered all around the country. The planes that crashed outside Yugoslav territory were quickly recovered by NATO. I also believe that if you shot down cruise missile (which cost I don’t know, but surely millions of dollars), before it reaches its target, with Zastava 20 mm anti-aircraft cannon (which cost maybe few thousand dollars) that you can count that as loss.
The NATO looses could have been higher but it’s evident that Yugoslav air defense was hiding their positions and conserving ammunition and missile reserves in case of all out land invasion. In that case, NATO aircrafts would have to fly lower, in order to support advancing NATO troops and would automatically exposed their self to fire of Yugoslav air defense which was best equipped for covering heights to 3.000 m. -- Marko M 07:18, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
The relative sizes of the Nato/US and Serbian economies is not a good yardstick by which to define what is a loss and what is not. Couldn't it just be easier to just say that xx cruise missiles are estimated to have been shot down by YU air defences?
KarlXII 11:12, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Mieciu, remember Rule number one. It's not my intention to start a long discussion. My opinion is based at first hand experience as someone who’s been bombed by NATO and on my conversation with my cousin who is colonel in Yugoslav Air Force. There won’t be reliably sources on this subject for many years. Only speculations. Look what happened with NATO report on military loses of Yugoslav army units during Kosovo War. -- Marko M 13:01, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, I think, based on my opinion and people arround me who watch TV in Serbia and news press coverage, talk with people etc., that maybe Milosevic was bad to SERBIAN people, but NATO countries are, and going to be the worst scum in modern world history. They targeted our buildings, roads, factories and other, with a goal to destroy our nation. Numerous serbian lives were lost for the cause of The New World Order. And Serbian people will hate NATO countries as long as they will remember no matter who is on power in Serbia. 89.216.173.210 01:36, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
It would be just my personal opinion and if I understand correctly there is no place for personal opinions on Wikipedia. I’ll just say this. Two weeks ago, two American F-16, from US Air Force base at Aviano, landed on Batajnica military airport near Belgrade. They were welcomed by their colleagues, pilots of Yugoslav Air Force. If they, who fought against each other during the war, could find common language, it should be easy for us civilians to do the same. -- Marko M 14:05, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
They took down the F 117 because when it opens its bomb bay doors it has a huge radar image ... "stealth" only is true when it is not bombing. 71.141.254.22 07:06, 5 April 2007 (UTC)Steve P.
"And Serbian people will hate NATO countries as long as they will remember no matter who is on power in Serbia."
You must be one of those who keeps writing grafitti "Nikad u NATO!" ("Never join NATO" should do as a translation)
Some alleged mass graves were also found in Serbia itself, on Yugoslav military bases or dumped in the Danube. Someone please explain this phrase to me, honestly. (Yes, I remember the exhumations - these graves contained children, and not so much as a military but on a "police" grounds.) -- HanzoHattori 09:32, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
In all of the recent Balkan wars evidence of massacres has been covered up and most likely in some cases faked, by all sides involved. There have been many proven cases of Serb forces removing bodies and disguising execution sites, (they have even been caught on camera by the BBC), and even the Racak massacre in Kosovo, one of the main catalysts for UN intervention, has been called into question as a possible set up by the UCK. Serbian authorities would no doubt claim that any mass graves discovered by the UN were faked for the purposes of propaganda, and it is not entirely inconceivable that some of them may have been. (Though the contention that it is the UN doing the faking is, frankly, laughable, and a sure sign of hysteric mania. Rather we would assume that parties from the opposite side of the conflict would gather bodies from various areas of fighting, dig a ditch and throw them in.) Therefore, commentators who have become familiar with the region tend to qualify their statements with words such as 'alleged', essentially to cover their ass in a situation where the truth of the matter is unclear, and may never be clear. I can understand your finding such rhetoric distasteful, however it is best to remain as impartial as possible, especially when the atrocities commited make it easy to dehumanise the people, and by extension the nation ,that was involved, exactly the type of thinking that contributes to the continuing cycle of violence and revenge.
...The Serbs concentrated on diplomacy. This is not true. On the 24th March, Serbian forces entered the village of Gllogjan and attemped to do to the Haradinaj family exactly what they had done to the Jasharis: wipe them out down to the last child. The Haradinajs were prepared, however, and managed to fight back and eventually escape after nighfall. Three young men were killed by Serbian forces, two shot in the head while attempting to evacuate the school, and one shot in the back while fleeing. This was one of the events that lead to the outbreak of war, although it didn't gain as much notoriety as the Jashari murders, mainly because in Gllogjan, the Serbs were defeated, thus leaving fewer martyrs to rally the population. Davu.leon 12:37, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Hello Mr. Sources - unfortunately my sources are original research, ie. interviewing people who were in Gllogjan on the day, including some who were used as human shields by Serb forces. Clearly this violates NOR, which is why I haven't amended the main article. Davu.leon 12:14, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Although there is this: http://www.cdhrf.org/English/Weekly/CDHRFReprotNo-401E.pdf, or this 'In March 1998, in their efforts to eliminate the KLA, Serb troops launched an attack on the rebel compound at Glodjane, using with helicopter gunships and armoured personnel carriers.', from http://www.iwpr.net/?p=tri&s=f&o=235663&apc_state=henitri2005. Davu.leon 12:22, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
The article is Self-Contradicting. NATO considered KLA terrorists - and they were never on the same side, despite having a common enemy in 1999. A similiar thing as USA and USSR in World War II. -- HolyRomanEmperor 09:46, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
There is a great deal of text here, but little-nothing in pictures. Maps AT LEAST would be helpful. I myself am unsure exactly where "Slovic", "Albanian" and "Kosovo" locations are. Colonel Marksman 17:01, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
I am not touching it, since I do not know the details of the politics, but if there are any Yugos or independent reading this, who won really? Objectives of NATO:
1. Get referendum vote in 3 years
2. Have NATO Under control Kosovo... reality... after 70 days of bombing nato had no choice but to agree (since milosevic did not give up to withdraw the forces) there will be no referendum in 3 years and that Kosovo will be (at least on paper) part of Yugos.
Also, UN has political administration of the province... that means politically Milosevic won and as usual he lost the media war, but he never cared much about it anyways.
I can tell you (I'm from Serbia) - NATO won. Today, Kosovo's gaining independence and NATO forces will be on it's territory and Milosevic is dead. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
89.216.128.197 (
talk) 19:36, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
This whole article needs re-written in prose and wikified.
One line about the tactics that countered NATO high-tech says "Dummy targets were used very extensively. Fake bridges, airfields and decoy planes and tanks were used. Tanks were made using old tires, plastic sheeting and logs, and sand cans and fuel set alight to mimic heat emissions. They fooled NATO pilots into bombing hundreds of such decoys. NATO claimed that Yugoslav air force had been decimated. In reality, as it turned out after the war, most Yugoslav planes and armored vehicles survived unscathed. However, NATO sources claim that this was due to operating procedures, which oblige troops, in this case aircrafts, to engage any and all targets however unlikely they were real. The targets needed only to look real to be shot at, if detected, of course."
What the hell is that? Common, where in wikipedia are there articles written to read like a conversation other than this line in bold? In fact, I'm almost creeped out by it: its like someone wrote that solely to say "hey, just make something look like a target, we can distract them that way."
The article states that "NATO loss three helicopters, 32 unmanned air vehicles (UAVs) and five aircraft — all of them American, including the first stealth plane (a F-117 Fighter Bomber)" This statement is so untrue.
If they took down a stealth plane, and moreover I am certain that they took down more than one, why couldn't they take down weaker planes? Overhere 02:26, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
The F-117 weakest plane of NATO in 1999? You have a wild imagination. What in the world do you think the NATO had, F-007 Satellite bomber?
"Since when are deaths and injuries "ridiculous"?" I think you had trouble understanding what I was writing about because I have no clue as to what in my statement you are contradicting here.
And what exactly is my opinion here? And what do you consider reliable sources - the CIA, FBI? The reason that there aren't many Serbian sources is because although they are witten in the same alphabet, they are mostly in Serbian. If they weren't, I am sure that you would be the first one to post a comment on that site saying that they are biased and lying. Overhere 21:49, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
F-117 speed and agility may be consider as minor defects now but in 1999 F-117 was one of the best plains, and it was a huge deal when he was shot down.
Like you pointed out, it would be a waste of time to argue over Serbian language sites because they can't be included on the site.
I still don't get what do you mean by reliable information - NATO, CIA, Fox news...?
"And what makes you think that NATO could hide..." If you examine what they did in wars then and what they do now, covering up their real money expenses from the people that work for them is nothing but a phone call away. Overhere 23:37, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
No I did not, Serbian language sites can be added:
Wikipedia:Manual of Style (links)
"Since this is the English Wikipedia, webpages in English are highly preferred. Linking to non-English pages may still be useful for readers in some cases:
Reliable information: Wikipedia:Reliable sources It is very hard to hide a loss of a modern fighter jet weighting many tons and costing tens of millions od USD, it can be possible in an undemoctratic country but not in the US. "the people that work for them" The republican senators worked for the democratic secretary of defence? Mieciu K 23:50, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Reliable information: Wikipedia:Reliable sources- This doesn't answer anything. Who exactly do you consider a reliable source for this article?
And as for Serbian citation, here is a site that pooped up on the first google page: http://www.novosti.co.yu/code/navigate.php?Id=10&status=jedna&vest=82270&datum=2005-11-25
The article starts of with soldiers description of the night when they took down F-117. It also mentions that later on another f-117 was extremely damaged, and then later a B-2 was destroyed (which was confirmed by US). Due to the newly discovered weakness of f-117, which you also mentioned, a US deal to sell 30-50 f-117s was canceled. Overhere 00:37, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
You honestly believe that the US is some honorable democrat.
And so far you kept avoiding to answer a single one of my questions. Overhere 02:44, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
My article stated that B-2 fell in “istocna Slavonija” so don’t try to turn things around.
First of all because you keep avoiding to answer my questions I will answer one of them for you - You believe that the only reliable sources are the once from NATO and the US (correct me if it’s not so). Therefore anything that I would give you in Serbian you would say "Well lets see a US military conformation".
If there is one thing that US has it’s the huge power over it’s media.
You claimed you "are not anti-Serbian", You sure are: First, you understand Serbian (and I am positive that you not Serbian) which means that you are either Croatian or Albanian.
You’re like a Sunni trying to look neutral with his opinion about a Shiite. Second, you dismiss any Serbian reports if they weren’t confirmed by the NATO reports.
If you are such a skeptic why don’t you look into what the reasons for going into Iraq where, and just what the state is there now.
“I do not like badly sourced conspiracy theories and propaganda.” – I’ll give you a whole list of how bad a source the CIA is.
And because this is getting nowhere I’ll get to the point. The following is a conclusion from the article on Kosovo war and has not one of my statements. “NATO used F-117s, and way more powerful planes to bomb Serbia. During the bombing they killed thousands of people, while the Serbian army had survived in good order because the billions of dollars of technology which we know that can detect whether or not North Korea used a nuclear bomb or not, nevertheless could not distinguish between plastic and metal!?”
If you are going to turn of topic like you did before – don’t bother. Overhere 18:53, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
"Wikipedia is not about truth" OK???. When you put it that way I guess I'll drop most of my arguments. Nato obviously has more verifiability.
But you clearly don't have any clue about US. "democracy","Freedom of speech in the United States"-sounds very nice on paper.
Tell me what's wrong with my sentence above.“NATO used F-117s, and way more powerful planes to bomb..." Overhere 20:21, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Ok? I'll substitute "more advanced planes' for "more powerful planes" Overhere 20:32, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Alright, if I change it a bit and I "word it technically" nobody has any objections if I put it under the "Criticism of the Case for War"? Overhere 21:34, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Seeing that the section "Reaction to the war" criticizes NATO's methods, the following would fit better under that section.
"NATO's real targeting is questioned due to the following: During NATO's bombing campaign NATO used extremely advanced planes such as the F-117 Stealth fighter, and the B-2 bomber and highly precision missiles. During the campaign they killed five thousand Serbians (according to Serbian sources(if you want to mention the other number of casualty claims that's fine with me)), while the Serbian army had survived in good order. NATO claims that the reason for that is because most of the targets hit in Kosovo were decoys, such as tanks made out of plastic sheets with telegraph poles for gun barrels. This is highly controversial due to the fact that the NATO technology is so highly advanced, that they are able to detect whether or not North Korea conducted a nuclear test, while here they claim that they were unable to distinguish between plastic and metal." Overhere 01:45, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
"your views","add sources" - You are either joking or you are an idiot.
What exactly is my view here?- all of this was mentioned somewhere else in the article so stop that "this is your view" and "add sources" crap.
If you don't give a reasonable reason as to why this is my pov then I am putting it back. Overhere 13:29, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
"NATO's real targeting is questioned citation needed(by who?) due to the following: During NATO's bombing campaign NATO used extremely advanced planes(that's childish and unencyclopedic language) such as the F-117 Stealth fighter, and the B-2 bomber and highly precision missiles. During the campaign they killed five thousand Serbians citation needed (which Serbian sources?) (according to Serbian sources(if you want to mention the other number of casualty claims that's fine with me)), while the Serbian army had survived in good order citation needed. NATO claims that the reason for that is because most of the targets hit in Kosovo were decoys citation needed, such as tanks made out of plastic sheets with telegraph poles for gun barrels. This is highly controversial due to the fact that the NATO technology is (is or was?) so highly(spot the redundant word) advanced, that they are able to detect whether or not North Korea conducted a nuclear test (??? is that an opinion of an expert or your own? what does ad 2006 nuclear test monitored by the United Nations have to do with ad 1999 detection of serbian tanks by NATO?), while here they claim citation needed(who claims?) that they were unable to distinguish between plastic and metal (dummy targets are sometimes very advanced and inclued heat, infrared and electromagnetic emmiters, such inflatable targets cost sometimes thousands of dollars how can you be sure that the serbian decoys were made of plastic and metal?)."
Seeing that you didn't read the article I'll tell you where to look.
Wikipedia-Kosovo War-Consequences of the war-Civilian Casualties- "Yugoslavia claimed that NATO attacks caused between 1,200 and 5,700 civilian casualties." (that is the citation)
Wikipedia-Kosovo War-Military casualties and losses- "Despite the heavy bombardment, NATO was surprised to find afterwards that the Serbian armed forces had survived in such good order."(that is the citation)
Wikipedia-Kosovo War-Military casualties and losses- "Most of the targets hit in Kosovo were decoys"(that is the citation)
Wikipedia-Kosovo War-Military casualties and losses- "decoys, such as tanks made out of plastic sheets with telegraph poles for gun barrels."(that is the citation)
(Korean test)- (not my opinion - read the news sometimes) - Google-news- US confirms north korea (you get around thousand articles)
If US is able "to use highly sensitive satellite technology to detect radioactivity in North Korean air" - they should be able to detect and distinguish plastic tanks and telegraph poles from real tanks. (Nuclear blasts are detected measuring radiation levels are Serbian tanks radioactive? Mieciu K 19:08, 29 October 2006 (UTC))
If you think that some of my wording is nonencyclopedic or nonexpert - by all means change those words. Overhere 17:35, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
First of all, if you are so big on sources why isn't it that you deleted the above information from the article where I got it from. You are basically saying that the information is ok here but not true there? If you deleted my statement because it's untrue why don't you delete the same statements from the rest of the article?
"Wikipedia itself as a source is not reliable", "Wikipedia is not about truth" - Well then why do you keep pushing for some "expert encyclopedic terms".~
You are welcome to change the wording to "your terms"(whatever they are)
And unless you have a good reason as to the falseness of my paragraph, i am adding it back. Otherwise you are justifying to delete most of that article. I could easily use your citation terms for 3/4 of the article-including the places from where I got my statements. Overhere 21:49, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
This is getting ridiculous. I reread your arguments, and they are laughable (all you wanna do is write something of topic and have the final word) so I'll stop this waste of time. Overhere 23:32, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
I see that AV8B Harrier is not listed among NATO losses, it crashed into Adriatic see due to technical reasons during training exercise, on may 2 1999 this was confirmed by NATO. Dualnature ( talk) 18:19, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.148.99.29 ( talk) 23:37, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
I updated the infobox as much as I could but it still needs a picture, a expanded casus belli, and more accurate casultie numbers. -- Gw099 01:30, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
The infobox is a mess.
Firstly, the casus belli is wrong - NATO entered the war because of the massive ethnic cleansing conducted by the Serbian Government - over 800,000 Albanian Kosovars had been displaced by the end of the bombing campaign. This needs to be reflected here.
Secondly, citing Ibrahim Rugova as a commander of the UCK is outrageous. Rugova was in no way involved with the KLA, in fact he at first claimed that they were an invention of Serbia intended to dicredit him. It would be more correct to have some of the KLA general staff, although they themselves had no real Command authority over most of the operational zones - so citing them as Commanders is disingenuous. Perhaps we should simply to have the NATO commanders, as it is impossible to convey in a small space the complexity of heirarchy in the KLA, which was a village-by-village insurgency. The simple fact of the matter is that there was no real centralised command in the KLA, though it would be far better to name even Hashim Thaci or Agim Ceku than Rugova, as at least both of these people were at one point members of the KLA.
And as a side note, the war didn't start until 1998. Before then there was a low-level insurgency, with little open conflict and no full scale battles. Davu.leon 10:47, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Please everybody involved calm down. Often 'leaders' are intended as political leaders, so the the only thing is it has to be consistant - political leaders or military leaders. Second let's not have an edit war over the infobox. Best way might be to do some drafting work here, on the talk page, get some consensus, and then put up what we can all agree on - and cite. 'Horseshoe', for example, is probably a great thing to mention, but (I don't know the sources) may have to be 'X reported that, ... blah blah' and then citing the actual newspaper article (or better, a scholary text) Let's try and work together on this - that's what collaberation of the fortnight is about. Cheers 210.54.239.45 20:55, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree, operation Horseshoe is a great thing to mention - in the context of unsubstantiated Western claims that led to the war ;-) Also, "NATO entered the war because of the massive ethnic cleansing conducted by the Serbian Government - over 800,000 Albanian Kosovars had been displaced by the end of the bombing campaign." It's well documented that the massive outflow of people started after the bombing began - so how can it be the casus belli? // estavisti 21:34, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
I think the casus belli in the infobox is too black-and-white, following the NATO and KLA line. Both organisations are politically motivated, and the KLA's motivations are deeply questionable given its proven extensive links to organised crime across Europe. The Kosovo conflict was much more complicated than most of the Western media made it out to be, e.g.;
http://listserv.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0109&L=twatch-l&D=1&O=D&P=8700
KOSOVO ALBANIAN POLTICIAN GUNNED DOWN IN FRONT OF FAMILY
Pristina, Sep 3, 2001 -- (Agence France Presse) Attackers in Kosovo gunned down an ethnic Albanian politician in front of his family over the weekend, a United Nations spokesman told AFP on Monday.
Corin Ismaili, 47, whose party was reportedly loyal to former Yugoslav hardliner Slobodan Milosevic, died in hospital in Pristina after the attack at the hands of unknown assailants at his home in Gornje Godance, around 25 kilometers (15 miles) south of the regional capital, Andrea Angeli said.
Ismaili was secretary of the Democratic Initiative of Kosovo, the United Nations Mission in Kosovo (UNMIK) spokesman said. The Beta news agency said the party was loyal to Milosevic.
United Nations authorities -- who have administered the province since Belgrade's troops pulled out in June 1999 -- said they had found several cartridge cases from Kalashnikov assault rifles at the scene of the killing.
UN officials have launched an inquiry into the attack. 217.134.116.65 17:23, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
1. Serbian Government is not politically motivated? 2. Define, exactly, NATO and KLA political motivation. 3. "Proven extensive links..." With all due respect, this is utter nonsense. There are NO proven links between the KLA as an organisation and organised crime. Certain individuals may have been involved in both, but just because Marko Milosevic was a criminal doesn't mean we can claim that Serbia has proven extensive links to organised crime. 4. The western media are well aware of the complexity of the Kosovo conflict. See Tim Judah, Kosovo War and Revenge, or just about any other book published on the period. 5. Your news report from 2001 is bafflingly irrelevant. Plenty of Milosevic's former allies were gunned down in Serbia too - exactly what are you trying to prove here? 6. Why no username? Are you one of the Serb nationalists who was banned in the recent Arbitration? If not, please create a profile so people will be able to identify you in future. Davu.leon 09:59, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
OK, I do not want to engage in an edit war, even when one person is blatantly pushing their POV, so I'll just let the article stay as it is, for now.
Nice to see that the article has been edited countless times since I posted this, with precisely ZERO replies to contribute to the debate. -- estavisti 03:19, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Apologies for the delay. On your first point, it was a war of independence, at least as Kosovo characterized it. Ethnic cleansing and some genocide did occur against ethnic Albanians in Kosovo (and against ethnic Serbs too). It was a smashing NATO victory. Kosovo is just months to a year or so away from independence. We would have never arrived at this political situation had NATO not prevailed. UberCryxic 19:50, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
No, not as Kosovo characterised it. As most of Kosovo's Albaians chracterised it. Either way, that's POV - to state one group's characterisation of the war as fact. "Some" genocide? Source? And how was it a NATo victory? You didn't answer my point about the Kumanovo agreement, that ended the bombing, being much more favourable to Serbia than the pre-bombing ultimatum offered at Rambouillet... And Kosovo's future status is still unclear. This whole year all the "reputable" sources were telling us it would be independent by the end of 2006. Now the resolution of the issue is being pushed back (by Kofi Annan himself), so that just shows how much we can trust those so-called "reputable" sources. Try reading something you disagree with. You might learn something... -- estavisti 21:38, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
The section states that:
According to UNMIK this is not a "mass grave" and bodies have been of both Albanians, Serbs and Roma. In light of this I'm removing the sentence. If someone has a newer (official) source which says differently I am willing to accept that, of course.
The POV and Verify tags are only supposed to be temporary measures due to specific complaints. Knowing what these are would help in getting started on adressing them. If we don't have such a list of specific complaints, then we can't justify having the tags there. KarlXII 11:35, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Source :
Encyclopédie des forces spéciales du monde, tome 2, Jean-Pierre Husson, Histoire & Collections, Paris, 2001, ISBN 2913903150, p. 95 :
Texte original in french :
Le sergent Robert Lyon, du 22nd SAS, trouva la mort durant un accrochage avec les forces serbes. Les autres membres de son équipe purent être exfiltré en Bosnie, où 2 d’entre eux, qui avaient été blessés avec lui furent soignés à l’hôpital de Siporo avant d’être rapatrié en Grande-Bretagne.
The sergeant Robert Lyon, of 22nd SAS, found death during a fixing with the Serb forces. The other members of its team could be ‘’exfiltré’’ in Bosnia, or 2 of them, which had been wounded with him were neat at the hospital of Siporo before being repatriates in Great Britain.
the article makes many claims about this but does not source the document, i have tried searching for it but only find the original rambouillet without any revision by the serbian side. does someone possibly have any access to this? full text would be preferable. thank you in advance
I've waited about a month for someone to post a link to this, and I will delete the following part of the article as there are no citations to prove this claim, despite the fact that it is all stated as fact:
If the accords did not go far enough to fully satisfy the Albanians, they were much too radical for the Serbs, who responded by substituting a drastically revised text that even the Russians, traditional allies of the Serbs, found unacceptable. It sought to reopen the painstakingly negotiated political status of Kosovo and deleted all of the proposed implementation measures. Among many other changes in the proposed new version, it eliminated the entire chapter on humanitarian assistance and reconstruction, removed virtually all international oversight and dropped any mention of invoking "the will of the people [of Kosovo]" in determining the final status of the province. Even the word "peace" was deleted. The Serbian delegation must have known that the new version would never be accepted by the Albanians or the Contact Group. It was immediately apparent that Milošević had decided to call NATO's bluff, believing that the alliance would either not make good on its threat or would do no more than launch a few pinprick raids that could easily be absorbed. Perhaps most fundamentally, Milošević appears to have calculated that he had more to lose by making peace than waging war — although the KLA threat had not yet been eliminated, its defeat was nonetheless just a matter of time, to his mind, in the face of the far more powerful Serbian and Yugoslav security forces.
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Kosovo War/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
It's really outrageous that this article is being allowed to spread such untrue propaganda about the role Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) played in the war against murderous regime of Serbia in 1999. The article calls KLA a terrorist organization based on an obscure testimony of a disgruntled individual. The article makes ridiculous claims that NATO is an organization that support terrorist and mujahedeens. Please remove this type of propaganda or unblock the editing of this article so that other people can fight off Serbia lies. |
Last edited at 18:58, 7 March 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 20:40, 3 May 2016 (UTC)