This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
If people want to keep reverting to pov versons of this page, then there's not much I can do about it, due to the 3rv rule. However, objective editors might like to consider why one contributor has produced so much on collusion between the loyalists and state forces, when this article is abouta republican atrocity. I would suggest that this contributor is trying to justify the killings at Kingsmill by distracting reader's attention from what actually took place there. Jdorney 18:49, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Nomath: As it was originally constructed the page contained little or nothing explanatory on the context of sectarian attacks in the area, while it gave us the views of sectarian killer Billy Wright of the UVF-LVF. Jdorney questioned SAS involvement. That has been explained. The Reavy connection has continued relevance in the context of his friendship with a Kingsmill victim, and in the context of Ian Paisley's allegations - originally, only Paisley's allegations were present.
I stand by my contributions. Failure to include relevant information can also amount to a creeping point of view, through censorship. Cheers.
1). Please see WP:3RR - Please revert your last changes or you may be reported.
2). This is a controversial topic - radical changes need to be discussed. It will be easy to do so on this page
3). If you do not cite your material according to WIKI standards it can and will be removed.
4). The Reavey/Black stuff is useful in a cut-down form. The SAS claims are irrelevent as are collusion allegations.
5). As far as I can see the material most needed on this page is more material about the actual massacre.
Weggie 22:23, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I find this very frustrating. One contributor seems determined to make this into an article about collusion, which has nothing to do with the issue at hand, ie the IRA's killing of ten men at Kingsmills in January 1976. The SAS, whatever else they may have done, certainly did not carry out the Kingsmill massacre.
Leaving aside, for a minute, the involvement of the SAS in sectarian assassinations, which is very far from being proved, lets deal with the central point here. If state forces were helping the loyalists to kill Catholics (as undoubtedly some of them were), does this mean that the IRA were more justified in killing ten totally innocent building workers at Kingsmills? Did collusion somehow increase the guilt of these men? If not, then why are you trying to devote so much space in the article to it?
Billy Wright's views are very relevant in terms of the impact of Kingsmill on the conflict. Wright argued that the killings made him believe that he had to join the UVF to "protect his people". In the same way, many republicans have argued their experience of violence directed at their community, eg the August 1969 riots, thee Falls Curfew, internment, Bloody Sunday etc. propelled them into the IRA.
One smaller point, there is no need to write "eleven (11)", it just looks clumsy.
Jdorney 22:45, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Agree/disagree?-- Vintagekits 23:27, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. That sounds about right. Jdorney 00:21, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
I expanded Vintagekit's version, which I felt had a better structure than the original, while reinserting some deleted material. I have also added some new information. Perhaps other editors might feel I have added too much on the background and reactions, but i felt that it was important in order to understand first the context of the killings and then their impact on public perceptions in NI. Vintagekits, do you still feel that there is superfluos info here? Jdorney 18:39, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. So one further question: should we re-instate the section on the Paisley-Reavey allegations or not? Jdorney 19:25, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
First of all, I don't believe I have transgressed any rule.
Secondly, it is tendentious nonsense to suggest that there is any attempt to justify the Kingsmill massacre. The material I have inserted expands on, and in some cases corrects, points already made. I have not deleted other people's work.
For instance, I extended the reference to Ian Paisley's allegation in the House of Commons against Eugene Reavey by revealing Reavey's denial and Alan Black's rejection of the allegation. Surely this is relevant. Surely also, the personal and political connection between the deaths of six Catholics and ten Protestants in very close proximity to each other is relevant. There is more that could be added on Reavey’s treatment by the RUC, but I will show forbearance, since the evidence I produce appears to cause controversy.
There was more than one assertion not supported by evidence. I examined the assertion that 30 Catholics were successfully targeted by loyalists in the area, in the two months after Kingsmill. I checked a database on violence and found that this was not true. This is not a fact that in any way justifies the original massacre. Some clearly find it an uncomfortable fact and an unpalatable one, but it is a fact nonetheless, unlike what preceded it. Is it the case that assertions that are not true are preferable to ones that are true, because they fit a preconceived conclusion with regard to the meaning of the events?
Similarly, with regard to the SAS, there is ample evidence that the SAS was deployed in South Armagh prior to 1976. I cited it, and explained it since it was questioned. That evidence is far stronger than that found in a general history. The experience of Colin Wallace and Fred Holroyd, and the evidence found by Raymond Murrray and Irish parliamentary (Oireachtas) reports provide detailed information. What is the problem in referencing it?
The assertions of Billy Wright and Billy McCaughey are justifications of sectarian killings after the fact. They need to be treated with some caution. In McCaughey’s case there is reason to be sceptical. As yet, I have not had the opportunity to look more closely at Wright’s extensive career as a sectarian killer.
As I conceded (without hesitation) and on a number of occasions, the page as it was originally constructed needed work. It has a better structure now.
-- Nomath 17:46, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
I have no problem with the Paisley/Reavey/Black stuff and was about to put it back there myself. Likewise I have no problem with a sentence about the SAS being in S Armagh before 1976. What I would have a problem with is devoting half the article to the SAS. Another problem, though better addressed in a more appropriate article, is that you have not supplied exact quotes fro mthe articles you have referenced and the ones on indymedia are currently unavailable.
Re Wright and McCaughey, I would agree that they are using Kingsmill as a retrospective justification, in both of their cases and especially McCaughey, it seems they were involved in the UVF before Kingsmills. But similar things could be said about the IRA using Bloody Sunday to recruit nationalists. The point is that Kingsmills had such resonance among the Protestant public that the Loyalists felt that they could justify their actions by reference to it. Jdorney 18:34, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't know why i get involved in NI articles they break my heart anyway would it be possible to name the quoted person , that's the only issue i have with this reference ( Gnevin 01:43, 17 January 2007 (UTC))
The inclusion of Sean O'Callaghans allegation against Towmney and Keenan is ridiculous. He's a proven liar and an ex-MI5 agent at that. Hardly a non-biased source. There is absolutly no credible evidence that Keenan or Twomey had any role in Kingsmill. ( Irish Republican 03:42, 17 January 2007 (UTC))
As well as that, Toby Harnden isn't a credible source. Very liberally cits evidence from "Volunteer M". Total nonsense. If I wrote a book saying "Johnny Adair said Ian Paisley told him to shoot a Catholic" would that be cited on wiki? ( Irish Republican 03:45, 17 January 2007 (UTC))
Online sources: Indymedia appears to be between servers – as explained on the site.
SAS: The SAS material was expanded because it was queried. As in other areas, the original information was incomplete and inaccurate. The original quotes I used could be found by doing a search within the PDF document cited, even Google would source them.
McCaughey-Wright – Kingsmill as justification for sectarian killing: One of the reasons why this justification was taken seriously is because the Kingsmill massacre was usually presented without reference to the six deaths immediately preceding it (or if they were referenced, it was simply in passing). The nationalist victims were second-class citizens in death, largely ignored (mirroring their role as live second-class citizens within Northern Ireland). Kingsmill deserves a page in its own right, but references to it by loyalist killers as a unique event should not be presented uncritically. In particular, non-reference to the deaths of six nationalists illustrates sectarianism. It is very difficult to accept that the Kingsmill massacre propelled them into sectarian killing. Sectarian killing is a typical aspect of one form of unionist politics, and the more widespread ignoring of its victims a consequence.
Toby Harnden: The revelation that Mr Harnden concocted a report of the hanging of Saddam Hussein for the Daily Telegraph may lead some to question his credibility (Journalist suffers bloggers' ire, Sandra Laville, Jan 13, 2007, The Guardian). The observations above with regard to Sean O’Callaghan and Harnden are well taken. Reliance on police 'intelligence' and the use of anonymous sources should be regarded carefully and presented with care. Ian Paisley claimed to be relying on police intelligence when he fingered Eugene Reavey for the Kingsmill killings. The allegation was published here without question originally. Presumably, since I produced relevant counter information, it is now regarded as an illustration of unthinking sectarianism on Paisley’s part, and on the part of the sources of his 'information'. Nomath 09:39, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Ok, well when indymedia is back up we can get the exact quotes about the SAS. Until then, I'm happy with what the article currently says.
Re the killing of Catholics prior to Kingsmills, this is now well documented in the first section of the article (and was even before the current clean up work began). Are you satisfied with the current state of this section?
On the subject of Wright and McCaughey, the point is not whether or not we believe them, the point is that this is what they argued. They thought it would be a credible argument among the unionist community. Hence its significance.
Re Toby Harnden and Sean O'Callaghan, if we were to qualify or challenge their testimony in the article, then we would need sources who specifically challenged them. Otherwise it would just be pov and not eligible for inclusion.
Jdorney 09:56, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Are you suggesting "evidence from 'Volunteer M'" and the word of Sean O'Callaghan constitues a reliable source? Mind boggling. ( Irish Republican 06:09, 18 January 2007 (UTC))
It's interesing to note the Historical Enquiries Team issued a grovelling apology to the Reavy family just yesterday. For years there was a whispering campaign villifying them as being responsible for Kingsmill which was of course nonsense. They've had to put up with considerable harrassment as well. On top of that, it's people like O'Callaghan who start these smear campaigns. He's nothing more than a little man with a big imagination who totally blows out of proporation his role in the IRA. ( Irish Republican 06:13, 18 January 2007 (UTC))
It's not mind boggling. It's in a well respected objective book. You may not believe them, but that's just your pov isn't it? Has anyone publicly challenged Harnden's version of events? As for O'Callaghan, the same applies to him. He may be a little man with a big imagination, but that's not for us (in our capacity as wp editors), to decide. Jdorney 19:00, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
I reverted a copied/pasted article as per wiki-policy: In general, extensive quotation of copyrighted news materials (such as newspapers and wire services), movie scripts, or any other copyrighted text is not fair use and is prohibited by Wikipedia policy. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Weggie ( talk • contribs) 17:32, 17 January 2007 (UTC).
Just noticed that the meeting between Black and Reavey after Kingsmill has been deleted. Needs to go back in.
The editing of the references to collusion, a factor in what happened in Sth Armagh, make it appear as though it was the result of decisions by a small bunch of individuals. The evidence in fact suggests that it was structural and went right to the top. Minimalist references to Harnden and English will not do, particularly as there is extensive evidence available that should not be removed or tampered with. The role of MacCaughey is definitely interesting and very relevant – linking the Reavey killing and Kingsmill again. I cannot fathom what possible objection there is my correcting the inadequate information that accompanied the first introduction of McCaughey to this topic. The evidence suggests that McCaughey was heavily involved in sectarian killing prior to Kingsmill, and therefore the suggestion that it lead him into this life is not to be taken seriously (or presented as a serious comment). Nomath 22:56, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Jdorney, I take your point.
However, my contributions have grown out of the introduction of, for example, passages on Reavey, McCaughey and the nature of sectarian killing after Kingsmill, which were misleading. My contributions grew out of that.
The 10 Kingsmill killings are related to the 6 Reavey-O'Dowd killings that preceded them and in the relationships, political and personal, that developed afterwards. Simply saying that one set of killings happened, and then a counter set occurred explains very little of significance. I concede that such presentation is within the 'tit-for-tat' scenario put forward by the security forces themselves, but it obscures the role of the security forces in organizing and fomenting killings. (You have interjected a new set of statistics, and when I can, I intend to examine them - in the past, I have found this type of assertion to be not comparing like with like. In this case, we'll see.)
Kingsmill is significant in its own right. By the way, just to be clear (as per your comment on my talk page), there is no justification. But think again about your rejection of the collusion evidence helping to "explain" what happened. If it does not, there is no basis for it being present. However, if the nationalist population was subject to sectarian killing, and if those investigating were also implicated in carrying out the killings (as Eugene Reavey noted pointedly at one point), and if the same security forces were acting in a sectarian and oppressive manner toward the nationalist population, then such activity could help explain the development of a mindset that lead to consideration of, and carrying out, of the Kingsmill massacre.
The fact that collusion was involved in the Reavey-O'Dowd killings that were the proximate cause of the Kingsmill massacre makes it a significant factor.
The fingering of Eugene Reavey for Kingsville afterwards by elements of the RUC (possibly the same people who worked with the UVF) and by Paisley is part of a sectarian mindset (Reavey was finally, this week, given an apology by the Historical Enquiries Team - I see you have referenced it. Paisley has not apologised and his allegation against Reavey is still prominent on unionist websites). The publication today (see Irish Times, January 20) of the NI Police Ombudsman's report into the way in which, in effect, the RUC ran the UVF in Belfast has resonance with what happened in Armagh. The evidence for a similar methodology there is overwhelming.
It is a question of getting all these elements into the story and, I agree, getting the balance right. Arbitrary deletion and counter insertion will not help in that task.
Just looking at the page now, I think the commentary on McCaughey (who also is linked to Reavey-O'Dowd and Kingsmill) is too bland.
The name of the ‘Pat Finnucane Centre’ will be changed to just that.
The reason for the personal contact between two victims, Alan Black, who survived Kingsmill, and Eugene Reavey, who lost his brothers (and who was targeted afterwards by the RUC), is a highly significant part of this story - it has been lost and needs to be reintroduced.
There is a lot of reliance on one source, Toby Harnden, There are assertions about what the RUC “believe” – the same force that was doing some of the killing. I have not edited those, but they amount to speculation at best. Nomath 15:27, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Jdorney 19:43, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Re collusion: the extent of the killings on the loyalist side were possible because they were aided and abetted by the security forces. Had that not happened, history would have been different. Whether the Kingsmill massacre would have happened in the absence of those circumstances is entirely speculative, highly debatable, and, in any case, hypothetical. I agree, again, stating this does not diminish responsibility for the killings. The paraphrasing of Susan McKay’s account (seemed fine to me the way it was – I hazard to suggest that the original was more incisive), has a grammatical error.
Re McCaughey: “bland” as in not as incisive as it could be, nothing to do with point of view. It appeared as though his claim that Kingsmill drove him to killing was description of a fact, whereas the fact that he was involved in sectarian violence prior to this was presented as merely something that ‘appeared’ to have happened.
Re Eugene Reavey (current edit): I think it is a problem to write, baldly, that he was “accused of participating in the Kingsmill attack”. I suggest that it read “accused in controversial circumstances by DUP leader, the Reverend Ian Paisley, (see below) of participating in the Kingsmill attack”. This serious charge was based on information from questionable elements within the RUC, and is (and was) acknowledged to be entirely without foundation. Also, the current edit refers to the PSNI, possibly (need to look again) that should be RUC.
Nomath 13:39, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Happy to address Weggie's concerns (see Weggie comment on article history tab). When I came upon this page it was full of errors, noted above. If you feel that the material I have inserted has unbalanced the page, then I am sure that can be rectified. However, I am not responsible for the current structure of the page. If there is further information you want to insert, then do so, but avoid deletion or censoring of existing information.
I am adamant that you cannot address the Kingsmill Massacre adequately, without addressing what went before and after. You cannot isolate the terrible Kingsmills killings from the killings that went before and after, or from the forces involved in their organisation or execution. Security force collusion plays a big part in that story. Just today, the Police Ombudsman has produced a report on RUC involvement in collusion in Belfast. The situation was worse in Armagh.
http://www.policeombudsman.org/pubscheme.cfm
Nomath 12:52, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Remember that what we are doing here is writing an article for wikipedia. Not promoting our various povs. Now, the problem I have with the article currently is that is would not make sense to someone who knew nothing about the event and wanted to find out about it. They would be asking why half the article is devoted to things like the Special Patrol Group, Billy McCaughey and the SAS.
In my opinion, the paragraph about the SPG being taken off patrolling Crossmaglen etc is interesting, but is really a matter for an article on that group and not for here. The sentence which says that the SPG enabled loyalists to operate in S Armagh, for me is sufficient for the point being made here. It can be elaborated upon elsewhere.
Similarly, re the SAS, I would prefer to see the allegations regarding them debated elsewhere, unless they can be shown to be specifically responsible for, or connected to Kingsmill. If they can be shown to be connected, then this should be pointed about explicitly, not by inuendo. Clarity is all in wp articles.
Again, on the role of Eugene Reavey; Susan McKay's paragraph is indeed emotive, but what does it tell the reader who wants to understand the Kingsmill massacre? Encyclopedia articles are not supposed to be emotive. The passage tells them that Reavey was bereaved and that he met the other bereaved families on the night of the killings. Relevant in the context of the false accusations later made against him, but is it central to an understanding of the Kingsmill massacre? Should we have passages on all the grieving relatives (no disrespect intended)?
Before answering these questions, remember that the goal here is a clear, well balanced informative article. The reader should come away satisfied that they have got the essential facts about the event in question. Jdorney 20:13, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Actually, I think I'm finished with this article. I don't have the patience for a pov war. It's time to call in some third opinions. Jdorney 08:46, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I am not involved in this dispute, which has been listed (link) on Wikipedia:Third opinion, nor have I ever edited this article. I have two observations and a question:
The two principle, though not the only, parties to the dispute are me and User:Nomath. Basically, I want less detail in the background section, he wants more. I would like to move a lot of the extra information to seperate articles. I'm going to make an edit now to this end. opinions are welcome. Jdorney 00:13, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
OK, I am going to go with the flow on this one. The article is considerably better balanced and more informative than it was originally. Taking a quick look at what is currently proposed by jdorney, I have a couple of observations:
In editing down the material on the SAS and British subversion in Sth Armagh, more informative references than those present currently have been lost. “According to the Provisionals…” in this context is too vague: who, where, what when? The exact references from Colin Wallace should be reinstated as he served in British forces at this time (he should know). The link between British (SAS, 14 Int, Military Intelligence, etc) and local security forces has been lost to the extent that the latter are correctly implicated in collusion, but the former’s role is now (again) lost. Without overburdening the article, this need s to be rectified, otherwise a misleading impression that British forces played only a peripheral, if any, role in collusion is created. In fact their role was central and this is, by now, well documented.
“Several Loyalist paramilitaries have claimed..”. That should be changed to “Some..”, unless the “several” are to be quantified and referenced in more detail (incidentally I wonder what Billy Wright thought of the Reavey-O’Dowd killings the day before Kingsmills? Maybe he wasn’t asked and we will never know).
Eugene Reavey: I would edit that to foreground the Paisley allegation; otherwise the impression is that, apart from Paisley, there have been specific allegations by others. As far as I know there have not, merely the posting of the Paisley allegation on to his website by Willie Frazer of FAIR and ‘Love Ulster’.
That is more or less it. I will attempt the above and hope to get agreement after it is done.
Nomath 13:07, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I await your edits. One thing though, the role of the SAS in sectarian attacks, as opposed to the RUC SPG group and the UDR, is not proved at this stage, only alleged. In any case, I suggest that an in-depth look at this is for another article. I suggest you look at the following articles; The Troubles, Robert Nairac, Special Patrol Group (RUC), Billy McCaughey Royal Ulster Constabulary etc to elaborate on these points. The point about Wright and the Reavey killings is taken, but as I've argued before, his reaction to the Kingsmill massacre is still relevant. Jdorney 13:13, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Nomath 14:36, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
OK, I would really prefer the more concise version though. Whats say the third opinion? Jdorney 21:59, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
→ (Jdorney left a message for me on my talk page, so I brought it over here to reply where the discussion is.)
Thanks for your contributions to the Kingsmill massacre page. Would you mind having one more look and giving us your thoughts on the current version? Regards. Jdorney 00:25, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Nomath, every time I try to edit this article for clarity, you pad it out again with collusion allegations. Also, its almost impossible to edit you background piece becuase of the referencing you have used - its almost unreadable in the editing form. Can you not just make your point in a short sentence and put the details elsehwere? Jdorney 18:00, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Nomath 19:00, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Nomath 19:05, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
No pov issue here. The issue is clarity. No problem with the name change, Action Force is indeed correct. Re the references, they need to go into a See Also or External Links section at the end of the article. Putting them into the text just makes it impossible to edit. Showing all links to a subject is not the purpose of referencing but is ok if its put in its own section. Jdorney 19:20, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
[Groan] You have again removed the main MI5 and Special Branch references. There was no lack of clarity.
Nomath 19:30, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
No offence, but are you actually reading the article?? I quite clearly did not remove the reference to MI5 and Special [Branch [1]. There was a lack of clarity:
old version "It is alleged that MI5 and RUC Special Branch set up a 'pseudo gang' within the UVF to undermine official policy. [6] Then Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Merlin Rees, admitted that such forces were out of control. [7] Allegedly, this group was responsible for 87 killings in the mid 1970s, including the Dublin and Monaghan bombings in 1974 and the Miami Showband massacre in 1975 [8]".
(whose policy, the UVF's?, Merlyn Rees'?)
newer version It is alleged that British military intelligence, MI5 and RUC Special Branch were directing loyalist violence, running a group composed of loyalist paramilitaries, RUC and Ulster Defence Regiment members. [5] Allegedly, this group was responsible for 87 killings in the mid 1970s, including the Dublin and Monaghan bombings in 1974 and the Miami Showband massacre in 1975 [6].
Which is clearer? Jdorney 19:40, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Also, those references are all about the Dublin and Monaghan bombings. You need to contribute them to that page, not here. Jdorney 19:46, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Nomath 19:54, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Nomath. Read this slowly; This article is not about collusion. Read again; This article is not about collusion. You need to contribute the Merlyn Rees stuff etc elsewhere. If appropriate articles do not yet exist then you need to create them. The point about the opening paragraph is that it has to help the reader to understand the main paragraph. It has to be very short and it had to be crystal clear. it is not the place to be analysing collusion in all its forms. Jdorney 20:21, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Nomath 20:10, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Nomath, I really don't understand what you're trying to achieve here. References need to be short and concise. They are not supposed to take up more space than the actual text. What is the problem? Jdorney 20:21, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Nomath 20:31, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
You're really making me tired now. As I've already explained twice, the issue is about ease of editing the paragraph.
Jdorney 20:44, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
There is genuinely disruptive and tendentious editing here. Is User:Nomath (talk) (contribs) a single issue editor with ownership issues about this and other articles on related topics? — Athænara ✉ 20:00, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Short answer: yes. Jdorney 20:44, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Nomath 21:32, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Drop the smart arse tone please. Is there any chance that you can shorten your reference so that it becomes possible when editing to distinguish easily between text and reference? Thanks.
Jdorney 21:50, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Jdorny: Your first Harnden ref appears to have disappeared - can you re-insert your ref from your edition. Mine is 2000 paperback - just got it. Page numbers seem to be different.
Nomath 22:33, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Can we try and tidy up who is alleging things slightly, especially as most of the references are offline? For example:
I'm assuming it's speculated by the British based on the sentence after it, but without clarification it's a bit vague.
Again, I'm assuming that's to do with the sentence after with the statement from O'Callaghan, but it's not that clear and O'Callaghan doesn't say anything abourt Twomey. One Night In Hackney 303 19:20, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 16:06, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
From the background section; "From August 1975 to January 1976, 18 Catholic civilians were killed in the locality (including two in Dundalk, just over the Irish border). These loyalist killings were claimed by the UVF, but have since been shown to have been aided by a Royal Ulster Constabulary unit, the Special Patrol Group." So who committed them? The UVF? And if not, who did the RUC aid? A bit of clarity would help. Alastairward ( talk) 20:16, 3 November 2008 (UTC)