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Khatri is not a caste. it includes people of various castes. as you know that Khatri is the Punjabi version of Kshatriya. Kshatriya is warrior caste out of the four castes (others are Brahmins, Vaishya and Shudra) Kshatriya caste includes Rajputs, Tarkhans, Gujjars, Lohars and Kambojs and these tribes are genetically related to each other and they have common surnames. But when people of these tribes converted into Sikhs, some of them were appointed for the security of the Sikh Gurus. and the descendants of those who were appointed for the security of the Sikh Gurus came to be known as Khatri. So that is why Khatri is caste formed by the combination of different castes and Khatris are not merchants and traders by profession, they are warriors. whereas Aroras along with Lohanas form the Vaishya caste and people of Vaishya caste are Merchants and Traders by profession. 122.173.4.181 ( talk) 17:14, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
The
Ramgarhias(
Tarkhans), along with
Rajputs,
Ahluwalias,
Gujjars,
Lohars,
Ahirs,
Kambojs,
Garhwalis ,
Yadavs ,
Patidars,
Sarins,
Dhai-Ghars,
Bara-Jatis,
Char Ghars,
Khukrains/
Khokhars,
Bawanjais,
Sikh Rajputs,
Mair Rajputs,
Muslim Rajputs,
Kumaoni people(excluding
Brahmins) and
Labanas, are the subdivisions of
Khatri(or
Kshatriya (excluding
Jats,
Sainis,) ) caste. They are said to be the descendants of ancient
Siberian,
Caucasian and
Central Asian tribe,
Khazartarians.
122.173.6.154 ( talk) 11:22, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
Hi Sikh-history
This page has continously had ad infinitum referenced content removed and vandal insertions incorporated .
Your edits are usually coherent and logical
But what is the rational of the following content ?
Khatris,
Ramgarhias,
Jats,
Gujjars,
Rajputs and
Kambojs people claim usually
Caucasian,
Central Asian,
Eastern European ancestry. According to
Ramayana::ref ::Ramayana, Romesh C. Dutt, Publisher Kessinger Publishing, 2004
What page from the cited book is this reference on ?
This page has had some ludicrous editing in the same vein , by ferocious anonymous editors ,
in fact such Identical and matching disingenuous insertions have extended to many related articles .
Would appreciate to see your response
Intothefire (
talk) 09:42, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
Tarkhans, Gujjars, Rajputs, Lohars and Kambojs. These tribes claim origin from a common ancestor, who said to have migrated from regions like Siberia, Caucasus and Central Asia. Some people of these tribes were appointed for the security of the Sikh Gurus, and later on the descendants of the people appointed for the security, came to be known as Khatris ( Punjabi version of Kshatriya). 122.173.4.181 ( talk) 10:45, 17 November 2010 (UTC) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRaXrH014CI&feature=related —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.173.4.181 ( talk) 10:48, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
Khatris are a part of Kshaitrya Warrior caste
Khatris actually originated in South Western Russia
The Khatris converted from Christianity, Islam and Buddhism to Sikhism, Hinduism and some remained Christians, Buddhists and Muslims. Khatris, along with the Jatts were the first to become Sikh.
All the 10 sikh gurus were Khatri Sikh Rajputs .
Later on Khatris adopted various professions, on the basis of which their subdivisions were named :-
1. Those who adopted Carpentry, became Tarkhans (Ramgarhias) 2. Those who adopted Iron Working, became Lohars 3. Those who became farmers, came to be known as Kambojs 4. Those who remained Warriors, called Rajputs (including Gujjars,)
The following is a list of last names of the Khatri community of Northern India and Pakistan listed in alphabetical order:
Contents [hide] 1 A 2 B 3 C 4 D 5 G 6 H 7 J 8 K 9 L 10 M 11 N 12 O 13 P 14 R 15 S 16 T 17 U 18 V 19 W
[edit] AAatli Ahdi Ajimal Arrii Assi Attalia Attli Amrith Alung/Alang/Alagh/Alg/Alangh Anand Aulakh Amba Atwal [edit] BBal Bahl Behl Bahri Bassi Batta Bawa Bhinder Bedi Bembey Beri Baidwan Bathra Bhalla Bhambrah/Bhamra/Bhambra/Bhamrah/Bamrah Bhangu Barmi Bhandari Bharara Buttar Bhasin Bhatti Bindra Boparai Bhullar Bains Basur Brar Bhurjee Bajwa Bhurjee Bansuta/Banwait Bhurji Bhullar Bilkhu Birmi Birdee (also spelt Birdi/Virdi/Virdy/Virde/Verdi/) Birdi (also spelt Birdi/Virdi/Virdy/Virde/Verdi/) Bombhi Bubbra Budhoo Burmy Bajaraha BANDUKWALA Bharihoke [edit] Cchhura [[Chadha] Chagger Chhatwal Chandhok Chopra Chatha Chadhar Chadha Chodha(also spelt chadha or Chaddha) Chhina (clan) [edit] DDhall Dadyala/Dadiala/Dhadial/Dhadyal Dhand Dhawan Dhir Dhody Dhotar Dhupar Dhariwal Dhaliwal Duggal Diwan Devgan Dosanjh Dhaman Dhiman Dumra Dhindsa Dhamija [edit] GGadhiok/Gandhok Ghai/Ghei/Gehi Ghumman Gujral Gandotra Gulla Goraya Gandhi Ghasuta [edit] HHanda/Hande Hunjan Hanjra Hundal Hayer/Heir [edit] JJerath/Jeirath/Jairath Jaggi Jagga Jagota Johar Jolly Johal Jassal Jawanda Jhangra jaidka{{subst:Indian surnames (Khatri)}}jaidka'{{subst:Indian surnames (Khatri)}}' [edit] KKumra Kakkar/Kacker Kapoor Kalsi Khanna Khattar Kamboj Khullar Khuman Kohli Kahlon/Kahloon Khokhar Khosla Kaler jaidka kanotra [edit] LLamba Lidhar Larh Lohar Loomba [edit] MMehrotra Midha Mahil Malhi Makkar Mithu Madhok Mahana/Mahna Mahendroo/Mahendru/Mahindru/Maindru Maini Malhotra Mehra Mehrania Mehta Marwah Matharu Mangat Main Makani/Maken/Malkana Makol Mahon Mahoon Malhotra Marway Mandaley Mandur Mankoo Manku Matharu (also spelt Matharoo) Matyar Meen Mehrotra Momrath Mion Mudarh Mudan Mudhan Mudhar Multani Mundae Munde Mundey Muttair Mahal Misan Punjabi [edit] NNair/Nayer/Nayyar/Nayar Nijhawan Nikhanj Nanda Nagi Nagra Natt [edit] OOberoi/Oberai/Obhrai/Uberoi Ohri [edit] PPabby Parwanda Prickett
Purewal Puri Passi Pandher Pannun Pal (clan) [edit] RRathod Rayat Rihal Rakkar Rehan Rekhraj Rekhi rekha
[edit] SSyal/Sayal/Sial Sabharwal Sadana Samra Sablok Saggar Sahai Sahay Sarna Saggu Sarai Sahi/Shahi Sahni/Sahani/Sawhney Suri Sandhu Sammy/Semi (tribe)/Sammi/Sehmi Samnotra Sareen/Sarin Sarwal Saggi Sehgal/Sahgal Sekhri Sethi Sehdev Sibal Sacher Sobti Sohal Sodhi Sondhi Soodhar/Sooddhar Saini Sarao Sipra Sokhi [edit] TTalwar Thamman Tandan/Tandon Trehan Tuli Thapar Tiwana Tarar Thathaal Toor Thind Takhar [edit] UUberoi. Uppal Ubhi [edit] VVadehra Vig/Vij Vohra/Wouhara Vedi Vishwakarma Wadhawan Wahi clan Wahla
The list is incomplete this is d list of all Khatri (Tarkhans (Ramgarhias), Lohars, Gujjars, Rajputs, Kambojs) surnames.
there are around more than 10000 Khatri surnames
some don't exist nowdays.
122.173.7.88 (
talk) 20:04, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
{{edit protected}} Sikh Boys ( talk) 19:44, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
{{
edit protected}}
is not required for edits to unprotected pages, or pending changes protected pages.
Logan
Talk
Contributions 17:37, 6 February 2011 (UTC){{ Edit semi-protected}} Sikh Boys ( talk) 12:07, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
KhatriNYC3 asks here why certain people have been removed from the infobox for this article. This is despite challenging the situation earlier on my talk page and seemingly accepting the situation. I do not understand what the issue is here. - Sitush ( talk) 00:37, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
KhatriNYC3 ( talk) 16:31, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
The ref [A glossary of the tribes and castes of the Punjab...] by H.A. Rose etal doesn't support the statements being made in the article's intro:
I'm removing these. Please feel free to add back with a proper source. utcursch | talk 19:54, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
I've added sources about some facts (such as all the Sikh Gurus being Khatri), but I'm unable to find any sources for some other sentences in the article. I've removed some of these assertions. Also, to avoid synthesis, things that are not directly connected to Khatris (e.g. history of Lahore or Katas Raj) should be removed. Please don't hestiate in adding the removed content back with proper sourcing. utcursch | talk 21:23, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
The Khatris, a Socio-Historical Study by Baij Nath Puri is available to me in snippet view here. The obvious thing to search on was "1013" but this returned no useful result. I had the same issue when I used a US proxy to view the thing. Can anyone see it in full? At the least, we need to sort out the page number and given recent events we should probably check the entire statement. - Sitush ( talk) 09:37, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
I have now explained on several occasions why I have removed photos of Inder Kumar Gujral, Kareena Kapoor and Hrithik Roshan. KhatriNYC3 keeps reinstating but fails to address the problems. So, for the last time, there appears to be nothing to support these people being of the Khatri community - no citation, and mention of "Khatri" in the linked articles.
Rather than just reinstate the things, either find a reliable source or fix the linked articles (preferably, do both). If they are added again without suitable verification then I shall seriously consider reporting it at the edit warring noticeboard, primarily because the unverified statement that they are Khatri is potentially a breach of WP:BLP.
There are links to some previous discussions in the Talk:Khatri#Removal of images section above. - Sitush ( talk) 12:54, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
Sitush, you are clearly not a Khatri, so what is your obsession with this page? I do not see you marking up mocking around with other pages as much as this one. Also, who added the picture of of Sodhi and Bedi clans in the Origin and History section? I didn't see any citation for this image??? YOU and others do not own this page, it was perfectly fine the way it was before until you had your own hidden agenda to make it how you seem fit. I guess you've come to realize that you cannot re-write history, but the best option you have is to re-write a wikipedia page, am I correct? Another thing....what other community claims Kapoor as their last name other then Khatris? they only other community is Punjabi Jatts, but they spell it Kapur, not Kapoor. What other group/community do you think the Kapoor Family belongs to????? KhatriNYC3 ( talk) 14:12, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
Sitush my dear, where in my last message did I "attack" you? Please explain. I am sure you have been a delightful help to the wikipedia community and I truly believe you have followed guidelines, however, as for the Khatri page, you have a negative bias towards them for some reason. I do not see you going after other communties who have none referenced information or who do not provide citations for thier pages, yet you consistantly come after the Khatri page. I agree with you, I should provide resources. Wait....I have provided resources! Yet you still removed the information and the references. Sounds like you are in the wrong on many instances. KhatriNYC3 ( talk) 15:19, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
Sitush, I have seen even on your own user page, other users complaining about how you are shaping other pages to the way you seem fit. You are not the admins of these pages. i.e. the Nairs page, the Kshatriya page, etc. You are goldpating certain castes that you seem interested in, while discounting other castes. This is wrong sir/madam.
See what I find interesting is that user Clarkpoon keeps removing "Khatri" and "Arora" from the Lunar Dynasty page, yet fails to remove other communties listed who do not have references as well. It seems as if you both are in an agreement with how you want to shape Indian communities on the wiki pages.
Oh and by the way, I think its funny how one can denounce their Indian heritage just for the mere sake of being able to edit Wiki pages without sounding bias, or at least "trying" to sell the idea that one is not being biased.....that's just my opinion KhatriNYC3 ( talk) 17:16, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
Response to KhatriNYC3's concerns mentioned here and here
You have made several unconstructive remarks here questioning other editors' intents, but you have still not provided any sources that support the statements you believe were wrongly removed. Please discuss the content, not the people. utcursch | talk 16:28, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
Utcursch, I can agree with you, I may have come across as "taking ownership" of this page, its due to the fact that I have passion for my community, and I don't believe it is right if others project a falsified view of them by changing/removing the information on this page.
** The sentence about the lineage is sourced -- please read the article. The image page has details about the image. In fact, this claim of lineage was also present in your version of the article -- only it was unsourced. I added a proper source for it.Italic text
I agree with you, the sentence of the the lineage is sourced, however, where is the source of the image? KhatriNYC3 ( talk) 17:34, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
Please also consider another section for Khatris in other states. There were Khatris found as British censuses in Gujrat, Mysore and Bihar where they followed different profession than trading (profession of Punjabi Khatris). I added the following quote with references for starters:
There are Khatris that are found in other states of India and they follow different professions in each region. The Khatris of Gujrat are said to belong to "Darji" or tailor caste. English writer Dr. Buchanan wrote that ' in Behar one-half of the Khatris are goldsmiths.' Another writer of English era added that 'the 'Khatris are traders in Punjab, and silk-weavers, when we find them in Bombay.' Lewis Rice echoes a similar view about the Khatri caste in various regions of India. [1] [2] -- Sun Quake ( talk) 01:39, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
KhatriNYC3 is the only editor here who has problem with the edits made after the discussions listed above on this page. So far, s/he has provided following reasons for his/her actions:
On the other hand, zero references (or fake references; see the discussion above) have been provided for claims like these:
Also, KhatriNYC3 has repeatedly removed citations for the following statements added by others:
KhatriNYC3, the other editors are waiting (since the past week) for you to:
There is already consensus among other editors. KhatriNYC3, if you have no comments to make other than personal attacks on other editors, I encourage you to take this to a dispute resolution forum. utcursch | talk 06:17, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
Admittedly 3RR/content disputes are my weak point as an administrator. But that aside... I sorted through all the talk page discussions on the talk page. Consensus has been reached by just about everyone but KhatriNYC3 (pretty much a single purpose account, if you ask me...). I'm not going to block at this point; I admittedly don't have the confidence when dealing with 3RR to block on this. However, no prejudice against any one of you taking him to the 3RR noticeboard, and getting it dealt with.
However, above consensus was established against KhatriNYC3. His additions are uncited, and yet to be proved. If he reverts yet again, after I unprotect this page, which I will do after posting this, I certainly will block for edit warring. NativeForeigner Talk/ Contribs 23:24, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
I will revert this page back very soon. you guys have exploited the Khatri people to how you seem fit. Only goes to show how much you all are envious and insecure about the Khatri people. This page will not last the way it currently is.
KhatriNYC3 ( talk) 15:25, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
3RR violations on both sides. No one side seems to be particularly incorrect, but please work out your differences through dispute resolution, or hash this out yourselves. Work it out on the talk page, and ask for it to be edited through protection if you make headway. NativeForeigner Talk/ Contribs 04:18, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
KhatriNYC3 ( talk · contribs) has added following text to the article's intro:
I tried searching the reference for "modern Khatri". All it says is:
Page 507 (cited as ref) says:
The closest I can find is(p. 506)
The above sentence clearly states that they are a "mercantile caste" but adds that they have 'Kshatriya-like features'. It doesn't say that they're Kshatriya. In fact the next few sentences explain
Page 501 says that the word Khatri is derived from the word Kshatriya, but doesn't state that "the modern Khatri is undoubtedly the ancient Kshatriya":
KhatriyNYC3, can you please explain which part of the book supports your claim. If you can't provide a proper source, the sentence being discussed will be removed. The origin section already talks about the word Khatri being possibly derived from Kshatriya -- the above reference can be used to support that sentence.
Also, the above above sources provided by Sun Quake ( talk · contribs) dispute your statements. So, any claims should be used with proper attribution (e.g. "According to XYZ, the Khatris are a Kshatriya caste. According to ABC, they are a trading caste." It's best to avoid the varna status in the intro, as per discussions at WT:INB. utcursch | talk 03:58, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
Adding a reflist so the discussion can proceed with substantiation of good citations . Something seems amiss with the citations removal , addition , quality , balance , misquote , false quotes or half quotes at el!! Cheers Intothefire ( talk) 08:22, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
Response 1 from Intothefire
MangoWong, if you are going to quote policy, you should probably also follow it. Please edit your post so that Sitush's username is properly spelled. An apology would be a nice touch, if you are able to manage it. JanetteDoe ( talk) 16:21, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
Sitush - You kept removing Raj Kapoor's, Kareena Kapoor's, and Hrithik Roshan's images from the Khatri page a couple weeks back by claiming that other communities claim them or claim the Kapoor last name as names in their own communities. can you tell me which communities make this claim? otherwise, I will add these images back to the page. KhatriNYC3 ( talk) 20:53, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
Can a wikilink be a citaion ?
Can editors remove citations after citation bully other editors and preach scholarship and wikipedia rules while providing dodgy references themselves , this is what Utcursh , Sitush and several others are doing not only on this but other articles as well ,
here's a specific example of citation 4a and b of this article currently
Intothefire (
talk) 18:50, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
If Utcarsh and Sittush go about slashing citations , what is happening here with a fake citation ? Intothefire ( talk) 10:22, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
Hi MangoWong
Its your prerogative as an admin Please go ahead and block/ban/banish me and whatever powers you hold on Wikipedia .
Point is I really do not have a problem with any article having more than one diametrically opposite view ,or content conflicting with my contributions , everyone has a perspective I do too . Conceptually Wikipedia is not only an open source but so absolutely egalitarian for both knowledge receivers and givers .So ample space for both revisionists , anti revisionists ,
But what I am finding increasingly disgusting is the mobs collectively working together to undermine the spirit of wikipedia often with the active but covert support of an admin such as Qwyrxian , and increasingly managing to receive the protection and privileges of the system they are undermining , through the good offices of well meaning but uninformed admins
A typical mob operation here is MathewVnitas , Sitush , Utcarsh ,Clarkpoon ,Qwyrxian , Sunquake , its more than apparent what they are upto on scores of related articles . Cooperation is good but cooperating to damage is bad news for Wikipedia . Collaboration to delete scores of good citations , split articles to delete content , browbeat individual and other editors and walk them into getting blocked/warned .Good news is in the end they invariably goof up in their success .
Wikipedia's protection to Sunquake is a case in point , commendable for the high ideals of Wikipedia protecting someone undermining it . Intothefire ( talk) 17:22, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
These images look mischievous to me because they seem to be depicting Hindu and Sikh icons as muslims/mughals. They should be deleted IMO. MW ℳ 04:03, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
Please note that this article implicltly treats the word "Khatri" as derived from Sankrit "Kshatriya". The Kshatriya status of Khatris is diputed. There is another explanation for the word "Khatri" as derived from "Kshaatri" which was a mixed caste of low status born from the union of Kshatriyas and Shudras. The following references can be checked which support this interpertation.
1) A Social History of India, p 248, S. N. Sadasivan, APH Publishing, 2000 2) Kshatriyas And Would-Be Kshatriyas, p 41-69, Kumar Cheda Singh Varma, Pioneer Press,3) 1904 Of clowns and gods, Brahmans, and babus: humour in South Asian literature, p 179 , Christina Oesterheld, Claus Peter Zoller, Manohar Publishers & Distributors, 19994) Incredible story of social justice in India, p 47, L. M. Khanna, Aravali Books International, 2002
All of these references should be quoted in the article which give alternate meaning of the term "Khatri"
"Please note that although the word Khatri appears to be a vernacular form of Sanskrit Kshatriya, the caste is exclusively composed of cloth merchants, grocers, prefume sellers (or "Gandhis") and traders . Dashrath Sharma, an eminent historian, has described this caste as probably a "pratiloma" or ritually inferior mixed caste created through union of Kshatriya fathers and brahmin mothers. Some say that they are the descendants of Shudra fathers and Kshatriya mothers. It is impossible to ascertain which one or both of the views are actually true. S.N. Sadasivan cites a version of the popular fable regarding the origin of Khatris which is closer to the latter view, that is , Khatris are a caste born of the union of Kshatriya mothers and Shudra fathers. In the ancient India such mixed castes such as Khatris were regarded as "'varnasankara" and were denied the respectability extended to the well-born and ritually pure Kshatriyas and Brahmins. Manu Smriti gives the name of a caste of this composition as "Kshaatri" instead of "Kshatriya". The word Khatri accordingly may have originated from "Kshaatri" instead of "Kshatriya". Rajputs , the bonafide Hindu Kshatriya caste, disown all connection with them and treat them same as one of the Baniya castes. Aggarwal Baniyas, a reputable vaishya caste of Hindus, also deny any link with them.
Some speculate that the word Khatri is derived from the word "Khata" . Before the partition of Punjab, Khatris were largely concentrated in West Punjab where, according to English writer Barstow, they were employed in a rather humble way by Pathans as their accountants. It is in this reference some derive the origin of word "Khatri" from "Khata" or an accounting scroll. It could be that Arora caste which came under patronage of Pathans and Khokhars in NWFP and upper western Punjab as their accountants came to be called "Khatri" because of maintaining "Khatas" or accounting books of their patrons. Pathans, according to Barstow, could treat Khatris like personal property , much like the medieval lords in Europe who treated their Jews like chattels. He wrote , "In Afghanistan, among a rough alien people, the Khatris are, as a rule, confined to the position of humble dealers, shopkeepers and moneylenders; but in that capacity the Pathans seem to look on them as a kind of valuable animal and a Pathan will steal another man's Khatri not only for the sake of ransom, as is sometimes done in Peshawar and the Hazara frontier, but also as he might steal a milch-cow, or Jews might, I dare say, be carried off in the middle ages with a veiw to render them profitable.""
http://www.sikhcastes.com/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.198.9.235 ( talk) 20:01, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
In the article a claim is presented of the descent of Sodhi and Bedi Khatris from Lord Rama. This claim is based on a text, Bachitar Natak, which is considered apocryphal by many scholars and practioners of Sikhsim .Here is the one reference regarding the controversy about this text:
Wherever there is any claim tracing to this text, it is necessary to add that the attribution of its authorship to Guru Gobind Singh is disputed . -- Sun Quake ( talk) 18:59, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
Given below is a quick list of references which dispute Kshatriya status of Khatris:
JN Bhattacharya's and Dasrath Sharma's references, that Khatri is derived from "Ksatri" instead of "Kshatriya", are also given above. -- Sun Quake ( talk) 19:09, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
Here are the words of J.N. Bhattacharya on Khatri caste:
"Some authorities take them to be the same as the bastard caste Kshatri, spoken of by Manu as the offspring of a Shudra father by a Kshatriya mother. The people of this country include the Kshettris (Khatris) among the Baniya castes, and do not admit that they have the same postion as the military Rajputs. The Kshettris themselves claim to be Kshatriyas, and observe the religious rites of the military castes. But the majority of the them live either by trade or by service as clerks and accountants, and their caste status ought, it seems, to be intermediate between that of the Rajputs, on the one hand, and the Baniyas and the Kayasthas on the other." (Hindu castes and sects: an exposition of the origin of the Hindu caste system and the bearing of the sects towards each other and towards other religious systems, Jogendra Nath Bhattacharya, p 138, Thacker, Spink, 1896) -- Sun Quake ( talk) 20:07, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
I see in somebody's logs compaint about "pedestrian invectives" in Varma's work. He cites Varma's politically incorrect views about Kayasth caste as the reason for his not being allowed to be quoted. True enough. But there is a catch here. This editor did not raise the same issue about quotability of HA Rose who has written blatantly racist , casteist and downright libelous stuff about a number of castes in the work that is currently being used support Kshatriya claim of Khatri caste. Rose's work actually fares much worse than Varma work on the yardstick which is being used to fail latter's quotability in wikipedia articles. Here are a few nuggets from Rose's works which should disqualify him by same bar as used for Varma:
Reference: Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North West Frontier Province, p54 & p 496, H.A. Rose, IBBETSON, Maclagan, Asian Educational Services
Reference: A glossary of the tribes and castes of the Punjab and North-West frontier province: A.-K." H.A. Rose, p445,p36, p63 Atlantic Publishers & Dist, 1997
These examples are just a handful. Entire works of these "authorities" are littered with sweeping generalizations about castes that are blatantly racist and would not be accepted anywhere as genuine scholarship by today's standards. Not just a few individuals , entire castes and tribes are termed "criminal", "ugly", "theivish" etc. Is all this not considered "pedestrian invective"? Why is Rose not being same treatment as Varma? You cannot cherry-pick your sources like this to make the arguments that suit your agenda. Same yardstick needs apply across the board. Would somebody consider deleting Rose's references just as Verma's have been deleted?
All the caste passion notwithstanding, Varma's work fares much better than Rose's on the quality of references. Rose's work is almost entirely based on rumours and free-wheeling references (if they can be considered references at all). If Varma's references need to go out , so do Rose's-- Sun Quake ( talk) 00:30, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
SUN QUAKE - uhhhhh sorry buddy, I am not in agreement with you or any others with removing H.A. Rose, so how can you say there is a consensus??? Here you guys go again, you get an inch with putting biased sources that are false, and you take a foot - you are trying to morph the Khatri page into how you guys seem fit. You cannot rewrite history by saying Khatris are not of the Kshatriya caste, you will sadly mistaken. I am reverting back your changes immediately!
KhatriNYC3 (
talk) 20:21, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
Here is the definition of questionable source from wikipedia: "Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for checking the facts, or with no editorial oversight. Such sources include websites and publications expressing views that are widely acknowledged as extremist, or promotional in nature, or which rely heavily on rumors and personal opinions. Questionable sources are generally unsuitable for citing contentious claims about third parties, which includes claims against institutions, persons living or dead, as well as more ill-defined entities. The proper uses of a questionable source are very limited."
I have just reverted the article to its state prior to the recent disruptive editing. The contributor in question is now blocked for a week.
Some of the points raised may actually have been valid, and I am particularly concerned about the accusation of what they called "quote-mining" here. However, I cannot see many of those sources and I do know that some other experienced contributors have been working on the citations/verification etc lately, so it seemed better to revert and then examine. Can anyone confirm/deny that particular allegation? - Sitush ( talk) 13:30, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
And here is Ghosh: [11] JanetteDoe ( talk) 16:40, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
Sitush, I'd really wish you would be a little less aggressive in reverting contributions of other editors. All of your above analyses is wrong and your insinuation of "misrepresentation" is groundless. Please explain what part of this citation is unreliable and involves synthesis? What part of this citation does not apply to Khatri caste ?
"The only problem was in marrying a woman from a higher caste, but still such marriages were not that uncommon. For example, all Punjab Khatris are said to be the children of a higher caste woman and a low caste male. Should millions of them be regarded as backward and ostracized? They are among backward classes in Tamil Nadu and Gujrat, perhaps, because all non-Brahmins are considered Shudra."
Reference: Incredible story of social justice in India, p 47, L. M. Khanna, Aravali Books International, 2002/ -- Sun Quake ( talk) 00:05, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
What in the following quote makes you infer that Dasrath Sharma himself does not hold the prevalent opinion of Rajasthan?
"The Khatris probably were a pratiloma class, born of a Ksatriya father and a Brahmana mother. At least that is the tradition now current in Rajasthan, though some of them maintain that they are full-blooded Ksatriyas who have gone down in the social scale on account of their taking to trading, commerce and money-lending."
Please also explain, how the prevalent opinion in the entire province is a minority view which the author himself considers "probably" true?
I am not going edit war with you on this but I would expect you to reinstate these deleted references yourself if you can't provide adequate explanation. Please have a another editor review the edit if you still have a different opinion.
-- Sun Quake ( talk) 00:15, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
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An Aryan business caste but nevBold texter Kshatriyas (warriors).
Big difference between U.P. Khatri and Punjabi Khatri.
I believe this article in its current format is a major mish mash because by a curious mix of disparate citations it seeks to cover Khatris from the Peshawar to Nadia in Bengal and deep south into peninsular India .
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Musalman Cutchi Khatri Jamat Karachi
Khatris belongs to Indian Origin migrated to Karachi in 1800 century.
1850: Khatri Jamat was being built in Karachi. 1901: First official Agewan Committee was built. 1932: Purchased a Plot for Jamat Khana (Community Center)in Lidbetter Road, Plot No. TL2/22, size 1200 Meters. 1942: Purchased a Graveyard from Muncipal Corporation Of Karachi. 1942: Registering the record of born or dead in the community. 1943: First Rules & Regulations of the Jamat was published. 1949: First Generral Body Meeting was called in Jamat Khana. 1953: Office of Jamat was built in Jamat Khana. 1962: Weddings must be held in Jamat Khana (the rule). 1963: Purchasing a bus and Death equipments for Death Carrier.
Current Activities
The elected current management committee of Khatri Jamat running succesfully all regular works including the registration of death or birth, weddings, donations, running Haji Ayub Memorial Computer Institute and Hajiani Rahima Bai Industrial Home.
Presidents:
Dr. Ghulam Abbas Koraya (LATE) August 1997 to 2002 - He died in his era & Vice president Abdul Aziz Khedoiwala run the entire cabinet Anwar Hussain Gubeet Wala August 2003 to July 2006 Master Abdul Rasheed Mithaiwala August 2006 to July 2009 Mohammed Shafi Vayorwala August 2009 to Current futher history will be edited later on
Institutions of Musalman Cutchi Khatri Jamat Karachi
Muslim Cutchi Khatri Bazm-e-Taleem: There was a time when there was scarcity of educational and social welfare activities. Muslim Cutchi Khatri Bazm-e-Taleem came in to action in 1963 with the purpose of providing guidance, promoting educational awareness and fulfilling the educational needs of Musalman Cutchi Khatri Jamat.
It was a good fortune that this society got very good founders and this fortune remain continue at present. These youngsters never impose negligence from their duties and always continued to work by keeping the focus on the primary objective of the MCKBT. Initially the body worked for only educational needs but then time came when it grown further with efforts of some well known personalities who contributed for social work other then educational needs.
It has spent almost 45 years in the educational and social welfare of community. Many of the indeed peoples have benefited by the lamp that was lighten 45 years ago by Mr. Gulam Abbas Abdullah Koraya (Late). What a leader he was? He was a spirit, He was an ambition, He was a hope for poor people, He was the one who initiated the change into Khatri society. In short he was a true leader for Khatri community.
The journey is still lighten from such a pride and enthusiasm as It was a long time ago and will (InshAllah) remain continue forever.
Current Activities Involved: Provide Books to community students. Running School under the joint venture with Muslim Cutchi Khatri Association. Cricket Tournaments Summer Programs for the students Debate Competitions for the students Quiz Competitions
Main source of income for the institute comes from the collection of Hides at Eid-UL-Adha www.mckbt.org
Cutchi Khatri Education Society: Musalman Cutchi Khatri Education Society is providing community services from 2004 and arranged variety of educational, cultural & community promotional activities.
We have to achieve numerous objectives by our own self, lets join hand to hand and participate all community activities to survive and promote Khatri community.
Fakhr-e-Khatri:
Introduction
Name: Ismat Ali Pen Name: Khatri Ismat Ali Patel (Fakhr-e-Khatri) Father Name: Abdullah (Late) Mother Name: Aisha (Late) Date Of Birth: Tuesday, 21st September, 1948 Marriage Ceremony: 19th July, 1975 Children: One Daughter and One Son
Profession
He joined famous children magazine "Hamdard Non-e-Hall" of Hakeem Muhammad Saeed (Shaheed) from 14th July 1970. He still has links with this extreme organization.
Translated Books From Gujrati To Urdu
1. "Mir-e-Karawan Sir Adamjee", published in 1980 by Pakistan Memon Educational and Welfare Society, Karachi.
2. "Tahreek-e-Azadi Aur Memon Bradari", published in 1982 by Wada Sada Wala Foundation, Karachi.
3. "Hayat-e-Jawedan Sir Adamjee", published in 1984 by Adamjee Foundation, Karachi.
4. "Memon Shakhsiat", published in 1985 by Memon Youth Organization, Karachi.
5. "Asas Sorath-O-Sindh", published in 1987 by Pak Sorath Dar-ul-Adab, Karachi.
6. "Tareekh-e-Khatri", published in 1999 by Muslim Khatri Loc Adab, Karachi.
Edited Souvenir
1. "Abdul Sattar Adam Khatri Ki Samaji Khidmaat", published in 1978 by Muslim Cuthi Istaqbalia Commitee, Karachi.
2. "Kawish", published in 1979 by Khatri Students' Progressive Movement, Karachi.
3. "Asas-e-Khatri Qaum", published in 1980 by Musalman Cutchi Khatri Jamat, Karachi.
4. "Khatri Samaj", published in 1983 by Khatri Students' Progressive Movement, Karachi.
5. "Khatri Alam", published in 1988 by Muslim Khatri Loc Adab, Karachi.
6. "Khatri Bazm-e-Taleem (Silver Jubilee Sovenir)", published in 1990 by Muslim Cutchi Khatri Bazm-e-Taleem, Karachi
7. "Haji Abdul Sattar Fazlani Ki Samaji Aur Adbi Khidmaat" published in 1994 by Gujrati Kawi Sangat, Karachi.
8. "Danishkada", published in 1995 by Muslim Cutchi Khatri Bazm-e-Taleem, Karachi.
9. "Haji Jan Muhammad Dhaga Ki Khidmat", published in 1997.
10. "The Memon", published in 1997 by Memon Youth Walfare Organization, Karachi.
Published Books
1. Naat-e-Rasool (P.B.U.H) of Khatri Non Muslims published in 1998 by Muslim Khatri Loc Adab, Karachi
2. "Tahreek-e-Pakistan Aur Khatri Bradari", published in 2001 by Muslim Khatri Loc Adab, Karachi.
Awards
He performs his duty very honestly, therefore, "Hamdard Organization" gave him "Husne-e-Karkardagi Award" on 28th March, 1985. The award was given by the hand of Shaheed-e-Pakistan, Hakeem Saeed.
Acquiring his social, welfare, research and literature work for Gujratee, Memon and Khatri community, he became popular as "Fakhr-e-Khatri" from 8th July, 1988.
He received "Literary Service to Memon Community" shield on 23rd November, 1992 By Memon Students' Organization.
Mr. Ismat was awarded "Nishan-e-Movement" on 29th January, 1993 by Khatri Students' Progressive Movement.
Okhai Memon Jamat presented the "shield" against the nobleness of his literary work on 29th October, 1993.
He received "Best Performance Awards" on 3rd December, 1993 from "All Pakistan Memon Federation."
He attended the conference of "Literal Academy of Pakistan" as the "Presenter" of approx 13 Lacs "Gujrati Community" in 1994 and 1998.
He was awarded the "Best Writer Award" on 7th January, 1994 by "Memon Friends Educational Society."
"All Pakistan Memon Federation" presented the shield of "Best Writer of Memon Community" on 11th September, 1995.
Fakhr-e-Khatri received "Excellence Award" from "Pakistan Art Cultural and Litrary Foundation" on 2nd May, 1996.
Rag Rang Society presented "shield" against his literacy work on 9th June, 1997.
He received "Gold Medal" from Gondal Memon Asociation for accepting his literacy work on 21st June, 1997.
Mr. Ismat Ali Patel received "Honorable Journalist of Memon Community" from Akhbar-e-Memon on 27th Faburary 1998.
He received the "Best Writer" award from "National Memon Council of Pakistan" on 29th May, 1999.
Fakhr-e-Khatri received "Senior Writer" award from Health and "Heigen Society" on 29th October, 2000.
Khatri mastermind (
talk) 08:07, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
Given that K C S Varma has a somewhat polemical agenda in his book, Kshatriyas and would-be Kshatriyas, and given that he is only used here as a source for quotations of statements originally made by Buchanan and Kitts, can we not find the original Buchanan/Kitts works? I cannot see the Varma book here but would hope that there is some sort of note that would enable us to pin down his sources. - Sitush ( talk) 19:39, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
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Khatris are one who took to the occupation of trading and business...As time went by..they realised that a Kshatriya status will consolidate their roots and hold in the Indian Varna Classification..So they started calling themselves as Kshatriyas.. Khatri ki maachodo ( talk) 02:43, 29 May 2012 (UTC) They are only businessmen and shopkeepers...In Gujarat...they are tailors(Shudras)...
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Mahindru's are not Khatris, they're Rajput's. This source is wrong. Mahendro's, Mahindra's, Mahindru's are the same people spread across three states/provinces including Sindh, Rajashthan and Punjab.
Revolution00 ( talk) 13:44, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
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Khatris are Kshatriya. Most of Punjab’s governors of provinces been Khatris. Dewans (governor) of the Mughal period, they were all Khatris. Ranjit Singh’s highest ranking military officials, they were Khatris. several army generals or small princes in North India have been Khatris. For example, General Hari Singh Nalwa in Mahraja Ranjit Singh’s army who had conquered lands across the River Sindh, was a Khatri. Dewan Mool Raj, the Governor of Multan Province, was a Chopra Khatri. The Rajas of Ludhiana area, Jalandhar, Burdwan in Bengal were Kapoor Khatris and so on. In modern times, Khatris have largely become an urban community living in Punjab, Haryana, Delhi, Uttar Pradesh and other parts of North India.
ALL the Gurus were Khatris. Guru Gobind Singh, the greatest warrior of our land,he was a Khatri too. The basis for the Sikh religion formed came from the upbringings and teachings of Khatri people that is why the religion is full of honor and valor, and prestige. It is because the Sikh faith defends its beliefs first with the mind, and then with the body. Jatts are another group of people I have respect for because they have unity and pride in their people.
Kshatriya tribes and gotras:
Suryavansi: (Raghava or Raghuvans): Kachwaha, Haiwaha, Rathor, Balla, Tomar, Senghar, Gaur, Sarin
Chandravansi (Yadava or Yaduvans): Jadon, Bharra, Dahia, Sammad, Jethwa, Silahar, Chavada
Agnivansi: Pramara, Parihara, Chalukya, Chauhan, Jhalla, Scindia, Dora
Nagavansi : Tank, Meir, Bais, Bhatti, Dabhi, Anwan, Khukrain
Govansi (or Bhumivansi): Bhandari, Gurjara, Bhalla, Kushi, Nair, Bhonsla, Katoch
Apavansi (or sagarvansi): Kapur, Wahi, Wadhva, Duggal, Kochar, Dhawan, Mehra
Vayuvansi: Khanna, Tandon, Kakar, Chopra, Sami, Sahni, Uppal, Chadha
The Suryavamsha as well as the Somavamsha originated from the common ancestor, the great Brahma. His sons were : Marichi ;his son sage Kashyap; his son Vivaswan or Surya i.e. Sun, and the descendants vamsha was Suryavamsha, the other son of Brahma was Atri.and his sons were Sagar or samundar i.e. sea (from which the apavansi or sagarvansi sprang and Sagar’s son was Soma or Chandra, and his descendants were the Somavansa. From his own body, Brahma created Svayamabhuva Manu, a male and Shatarupa, a female. Humans descended from Manu and so are known as manava. And subsequently from them appeared the Prachetas. They created wind (vayu) and fire (agni) from their mouths, whence we have the Vayuvansi and Agnivansi clans. The earth is said to have derived its name from Prithu, the 6th king of the line of Vaisasvata. From this we have the Bhumi- or Govansi. Manu eldest son of Iksvaku, king of Kosaldesa (Ayodhia). A few generations later came Masndhatri, in whose line the 31st king was Harishchandra, wellknown to live for truih. Raja Sagar of the same clan performed the ashvamedha yajna (from him we have the Apavansi ). and his great grandson bhagirath is reputed to have brought ganga on earth by virtue of his penances.
Like all other castes in India, Khatris are also divided into many sub-groups. On the top are dhai-gharas or those belonging to the two and a half houses. These are the four castes of Kapurs, Mehras (or Malhotras), Seth and Khannas. These are then followed by Bahris or the twelvers e.g. Tandons, Chopras, Wahis, Gadheoks, etc. Then there is the large mixed group of Bhunjais or fifty-twoers; which includes almost all the remaining Khatris ; Wigs come in this group. There are also special sub-groups of Khatris called Khukhrains and Sarins/Sareens, which do not fall into all of the above groups. Khukharain Khatris include names like Anand, Chadha, Kohli, Sethi etc. Of course the most famous Khatri of all times is Guru Nanak Dev (1469-1539) who was a Bedi Khatri. All the following nine Gurus were Khatris with sub-castes like Trehan, Bhalla and Sodhi, etc.
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Legend relates that Parashurama (Rama, 6th incarnation of Vishnu) wanted to massacre the Kshatriyas and caused every Kshatriya woman to miscarry. However, some women escaped and took shelter in Brahmin (highest priestly caste) houses. The Brahmin declared them to be Brahmin and even ate with them in order to show Parashurama that the Kshatriya women were from their caste, and thus saved them. According to this story, the children born of these women became the Khatri. 182.64.4.5 ( talk) 10:17, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
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Khatris are Kshatriya. Most of Punjab’s governors of provinces been Khatris. Dewans (governor) of the Mughal period, Ranjit Singh’s highest ranking military officials, they were all Khatris. Several army generals or small princes in North India have been Khatris. For example, General Hari Singh Nalwa in Mahraja Ranjit Singh’s army who had conquered lands across the River Sindh, was a Khatri. Dewan Mool Raj, the Governor of Multan Province, was a Chopra Khatri. The Rajas of Ludhiana area, Jalandhar, Burdwan in Bengal were Kapoor Khatris and so on. In modern times, Khatris have largely become an urban community living in Punjab, Haryana, Delhi, Uttar Pradesh and other parts of North India.
ALL the Gurus were Khatris. Guru Gobind Singh, the greatest warrior of our land,he was a Khatri too. The basis for the Sikh religion formed came from the upbringings and teachings of Khatri people that is why the religion is full of honor and valor, and prestige. It is because the Sikh faith defends its beliefs first with the mind, and then with the body.
Kshatriya tribes and gotras:
Suryavansi: (Raghava or Raghuvans): Kachwaha, Haiwaha, Rathor, Balla, Tomar, Senghar, Gaur, Sarin
Chandravansi (Yadava or Yaduvans): Jadon, Bharra, Dahia, Sammad, Jethwa, Silahar, Chavada
Agnivansi: Pramara, Parihara, Chalukya, Chauhan, Jhalla, Scindia, Dora
Nagavansi : Tank, Meir, Bais, Bhatti, Dabhi, Anwan, Khukrain
Govansi (or Bhumivansi): Bhandari, Gurjara, Bhalla, Kushi, Nair, Bhonsla, Katoch
Apavansi (or sagarvansi): Kapur, Wahi, Wadhva, Duggal, Kochar, Dhawan, Mehra
Vayuvansi: Khanna, Tandon, Kakar, Chopra, Sami, Sahni, Uppal, Chadha
The Suryavamsha as well as the Somavamsha originated from the common ancestor, the great Brahma. His sons were : Marichi ;his son sage Kashyap; his son Vivaswan or Surya i.e. Sun, and the descendants vamsha was Suryavamsha, the other son of Brahma was Atri.and his sons were Sagar or samundar i.e. sea (from which the apavansi or sagarvansi sprang and Sagar’s son was Soma or Chandra, and his descendants were the Somavansa. From his own body, Brahma created Svayamabhuva Manu, a male and Shatarupa, a female. Humans descended from Manu and so are known as manava. And subsequently from them appeared the Prachetas. They created wind (vayu) and fire (agni) from their mouths, whence we have the Vayuvansi and Agnivansi clans. The earth is said to have derived its name from Prithu, the 6th king of the line of Vaisasvata. From this we have the Bhumi- or Govansi. Manu eldest son of Iksvaku, king of Kosaldesa (Ayodhia). A few generations later came Masndhatri, in whose line the 31st king was Harishchandra, wellknown to live for truih. Raja Sagar of the same clan performed the ashvamedha yajna (from him we have the Apavansi ). and his great grandson bhagirath is reputed to have brought ganga on earth by virtue of his penances.
Like all other castes in India, Khatris are also divided into many sub-groups. On the top are dhai-gharas or those belonging to the two and a half houses. These are the four castes of Kapurs, Mehras (or Malhotras), Seth and Khannas. These are then followed by Bahris or the twelvers e.g. Tandons, Chopras, Wahis, Gadheoks, etc. Then there is the large mixed group of Bhunjais or fifty-twoers; which includes almost all the remaining Khatris ; Wigs come in this group. There are also special sub-groups of Khatris called Khukhrains and Sarins/Sareens, which do not fall into all of the above groups. Khukharain Khatris include names like Anand, Chadha, Kohli, Sethi etc. Of course the most famous Khatri of all times is Guru Nanak Dev (1469-1539) who was a Bedi Khatri. All the following nine Gurus were Khatris with sub-castes like Trehan, Bhalla and Sodhi, etc.
Hey Sitush, you are here as well.
Again I would like to ask, who were these Hindu Kings???? that you mentioned, who ruled over khatris. Can you name few??? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.139.128.14 ( talk) 10:41, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
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This page has a lot of text that is speculative or is based on sources/books that give opinions and not historical research. To make the article more factual, I request the following changes:
1. Please remove the following from the introduction paragraph - it is repeated in the History section below apart from not being based on research based reference.
Khatris played an important role in India's transregional trade under the Mughal Empire. With the Mughal patronage, they adopted administrative and military roles outside the Punjab region as well. Scott Cameron Levi describes Khatris among the "most important merchant communities of early modern India."
2. Please change the Origin section to the following:
Khatri (Punjabi for Sanskrit word Kshatriya) community are a north Indian community that originated in the Punjab[26][27][28][29][32]. In the course of time, as a result of economic and political exigencies, Khatris expanded from military into mercantile occupations.
The comparison of the Punjabi word "Khatri" with the word "Khsatri" in Manu Smriti is inappropriate as they refer to 2 different things in different languages. Hence this reference is incorrect.
Indianuser11 ( talk) 04:22, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
Khatris not only claimed, but their claim was also accepted.
Khatris are kshatriye and it is widely accepted ^ Eleanor M.Nesbitt. Intercultural Education:Ethnographic and Religious approaches. 101.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Satya301 ( talk • contribs) 09:10, 20 December 2013 (UTC) http://books.google.co.in/books?id=QOJ5cOgJ4y8C&pg=PA101&dq=Soni+caste+of+punjab&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tGXzUMKMIIfIkQX77oD4DQ&ved=0CEQQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Soni%20caste%20of%20punjab&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by Satya301 ( talk • contribs) 09:13, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
I agree with his edit request especially the one where comparison has been made between "panjabi word khatri" and hindi manusmriti word.
Here, we have to understand that panjabi and hindi are two different languages and cannot be compared.
Eg
In english "whore" word means some thing offensive, and in panjabi "whore" word means "more to it".
Now, i cant say that panjabi "whore" word has been derived form english word "whore". It is illogocal to compare two languages like this.
Also authors whose books are referred in this context belongs to Bengal, thus they dont know hindi nor panjabi. So i dont think so their view can be of any value in this regard. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Satya301 ( talk • contribs) 09:29, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
He is right, and language is good enough.
Also, I went through, Jognath Bhattacharya reference. He is calling khatris "bastard".
OMG, he seems to be illiterate of his time. How can he even use this type of language for anybody. He don't even know the correct spelling of khatris and he is trying to give the homology.
he is talking about the believes of people without any survey, or public opinion. Thus, implying his personal view only.
I dont think so, Wikipedia should include any such reference which are from British era and opinion based. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amitksharma1 ( talk • contribs) 04:46, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
This article writes only bad things about us, there is nothing good in it. Even text picked up is selective (everything negative), except fro few add on s to make it less offensive. I request the editors to read the page 139 of reference from which only bad thing has been picked up ( https://archive.org/stream/hinducastesands00bhatgoog#page/n163/mode/1up) It is reference 5 in the given article. It tells about supremacy of khatris above all. But, administrators seem to be biased in thinking only in one direction i.e. to defame us. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Satya301 ( talk • contribs) 09:30, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
Thank you Sitush for your prompt reply.
I am happy that you removed the reference which was criticized by many.
Also I thank you for your update on the wikipedia policy on censoring and british era text.
Please consider another request. Please look into the reference where two languages have been compared without any relevance. I am talking about the Panjabi language (khatri) and Hindi language(khsatri). Authors of the references seem to be not good at Panjabi.
I also gave one example where i have compared english word whore with panjabi word whore, which are entirely different.
Also, references given are not from good publishing houses so they cannot be trusted. So I request you to remove it as suggested by many.
Thank you.
Yes Sitush, it seems so. I also tried, but i could not find any literature by him. Also, most of the discussions in talk section are contradicting his point especially his comparison of two languages. Please look into it and omit it as suggested by many. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Satya301 ( talk • contribs) 11:27, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
I'm not going to delete it right now but I have left a note with Qwyrxian regarding what is happening here. Let's see what they think, bearing in mind this new info regarding reliability. - Sitush ( talk) 11:35, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
In place of this line, "Thus, the Khatris have an ambiguous position in the varna system".
It should be "The Khatris have an ambiguous position in the varna system". As this line is not in continuation with its last line. It has its own reference, so thus is not required. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Satya301 ( talk • contribs) 17:11, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
This is one of the latest reference in the field, from the house of most trustworthy publishing group. And by the highly qualified historian. Thank you
Text:
Irrespective of individual ranking within the khatri community, the Punjabi khatri never abandoned their cast rank of kshatriya. Instead as shown in colonial India, the khatris believed they were of pure vedic stock and they regarded the Rajputs as lesser kshatriyas because they were not Vedic. Bhai Gurdas defined the khatris as Kshatriyas and the Rajputs as Vaishyas. While Khatri employment in warfare was waning, their ideas of violence were connected to Kshatriya ideal. The social status of the Khatris as Kshatriyas seems to have been well established in the Punjab and this meant that the khatris did not have social pressure to justify their rank. For khatris, a Kshatriya was never used as a tactic for social mobility:all Khatris had martial genealogies. And they considered these martial genealogies as pure and must have connected to the court because only real kings could use the ‘violence’. This may have encouraged the Khatris to seek government service because they did not want to severe their ties to royality.
Taken from :Reference: Sikh Militancy in the Seventeenth Century:Religous Violence in Mughal and Early Modern India Hardip Singh Syan I.B.Tauris, 29-Jan-2013 - History - 315 pages (Macmillan)
About the author: http://us.macmillan.com/author/hardipsinghsyan
.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Satya301 ( talk • contribs) 12:21, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
^ The changing Indian civilization: a perspective on India, Oroon K. Ghosh, p282, Minerva Associates (Publications), 1976
^ Early Chauhān dynasties: a study of Chauhān political history, Chauhān political institutions, and life in the Chauhān dominions, from 800 to 1316 A.D., Dasharatha Sharma, p 279, Motilal Banarsidass, 1975 –
Book offers a snippet unreasoned view and must be excluded.
^ People of India: Rajasthan, Part 1, p303, Chapter titled "Darji" by Ramesh Chandra, K. S. Singh, Popular Prakashan, 1998/ quote: "Peepavanshi Darji are also called Peepavat Khatri."
There are many, i will go through them and will let you know. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Satya301 ( talk • contribs) 12:28, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
^ Mahatma Hansraj: Maker of the Modern Punjab By Sri Ram Sharma, Published 1941, Arya Pradeshik, Pratinidhi Sabha -Unnecessary. Please remove this reference (British era reference). Also I request you to delete the name Hans Raj Gupta (as it is irrelevant in this context).
According to Bichitra Natak, said to be the autobiography of the last Sikh Guru Gobind Singh, but whose authenticity is a matter of ongoing dispute,[10][11][12] the Bedi sub-caste of the Khatris derives its lineage from Kush, the son of Rama in the Hindu mythology. - The references should come at the end of the statement.
Indian settlers: the story of a New Zealand South Asian community, p48, Jacqueline Leckie, Otago University Press, 2000/ quote :"Tailoring was a caste occupation that continued in New Zealand by those from Darji and Khatri castes who had been trained in appropriate skills. Bhukandas Masters, a Khatri, emigrated to New Zealand in 1919. He practiced as tailor in central Auckland...
- I could not get the book, but again it seems to be a snippet view (p48) i.e. more of describing about few individuals definitely not reflecting the whole population.
^ John R. McLane (2002). Land and Local Kingship in Eighteenth-Century Bengal. Cambridge South Asian Studies (Volume 53). Cambridge University Press. p. 131. ISBN 978-0-521-52654-8. "The Khatris were a Punjabi mercantile caste who claimed to be Kshatriyas. Nineteenth-century Indians and British administrators failed to agree whether that claim should be accepted. The fact that overwhelming majority were engaged in Vaishya (mercantile), not Kshatriya (military), pursuits was balanced against the Khatri origin myths..."
Snippet view (p131). Infact, Introduction says some thing different. ( http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=3671208), i am trying to get the complete volume. Then I may say something about it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Satya301 ( talk • contribs) 14:31, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
Khatris are actually Shudras who took to the occupation of trading and business...As time went by..they realised that a Kshatriya status will consolidate their roots and hold in the Indian Varna Classification..So they started calling themselves as Kshatriyas.. Khatri ki maachodo (talk) 02:43, 29 May 2012 (UTC) They are only businessmen and shopkeepers...In Gujarat...they are tailors(Shudras)...
Your reply:- Not done - The article already pretty much says this, and with reliable sources.
[Sitush] - As far as I know, we are not suppose to use or support the use of slang (last line). I also used slang once and i regret it now. I hope and wish, that we stick to morals while discussing such sensitive issues.
Especially when we are referring to a community who has given people like Kalpana Chawla (NASA) , Legendary Hargobind Khurana (Nobel laureate), Kiran Bedi, Virat Kohli, Gagan Narang, Our PM, to so many legends including freedom fighters ( I think much more than any of the Indian community.
Thank you. Satya301 ( talk) 06:02, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
I have highlighted the words. Satya301 ( talk) 10:03, 24 December 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Satya301 ( talk • contribs) 09:53, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
All nonsense to which you agreed, line that i highlighted means that "fuck the mother of khatris",,, can you show one line in article or in any reference which says Khatris are Shudra. And its better not to comment if you dont know something.. Satya301 ( talk) 18:03, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
Thank you.
Satya301 ( talk) 10:51, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
Finally i got the access to this book.
John R. McLane (2002). Land and Local Kingship in Eighteenth-Century Bengal. Cambridge South Asian Studies (Volume 53). Cambridge University Press. p. 131.
ISBN
978-0-521-52654-8. "The Khatris were a Punjabi mercantile caste who claimed to be Kshatriyas. Nineteenth-century Indians and British administrators failed to agree whether that claim should be accepted. The fact that overwhelming majority were engaged in Vaishya (mercantile), not Kshatriya (military), pursuits was balanced against the Khatri origin myths..."
e line
I suggest, we should include complete quote, half quote do not reflect the author's view. As there were reasons for khatris claims and that should be highlighted.
Thank you. Satya301 ( talk) 00:31, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[Satya] 117.202.64.31 ( talk) 23:50, 25 December 2013 is(UTC)
"Confused", the reference tells about both sides. One cannot pick one side and write and give that reference.
half line has been exactly copied (plagiarized) . Ideally it should be complete sentence or nothing (if you are picking up a quote). Satya301 ( talk) 18:04, 29 December 2013 (UTC)