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Anyone ever had a critical look at these two?
"Before": [ [1]]
"After": [ [2]]
Firstly, I noticed that the pattern on the water isn't the same on those pictures although the first picture is a bit brighter. The pattern should be the same if it's the same picture. To me it's obvious it isn't. Even the "after" picture looks more authentic. Finally, the modified picture is larger than the original one.
To sum up, those pictures "prove" nothing. Maybe they made two pictures? One with Stalin alone, and the other together with the officer.
Please do only publish clear facts! I suggest a removal of the picture at least until has been cleared up. To me it looks just like one of those Hearst/Hitler anti-Stalin fabricated propaganda pictures/facts. Who would gain most of the removal of the officer? Fascists or Stalin? What would Stalin gain out of it anyway? Don't state it as a fact if you can't prove it. Thanks.
I don't know the validity of this particular image, but the points people are making are not good ones. For example, if you look closely, the bridge is in fact there in both images. One is just more washed out from the brightness. The non-matching brightness levels of the pictures are likely a result from scanning the images at two different settings (also explaining the difference in size). It's definitely not a second picture, either. The pose of all the people remains identical. I can't vouch for the authenticity of these images, but this sort of erasure was very common under Stalin Matthewcc 19:22, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
It is in the introduction, without sources (i presume, it is considered common knowledge that evil Stalin initiated the Great Purge, but I doubt that verifiable sources include "common knowledge"). The history of that turbulent period is much too complicated to allow such a blunt statement, not to mention many sources contradicting it (for example, Yuri Zhukov's "Иной Сталин" ("Other Stalin"). With respect, Ko Soi. Also, I would like to note that, unfortunately, while giving Stalin a mandatory kick for military purges in 1937-1938 (btw, the replacement commanders came from the same generation as the replaced - thus claims that the replaced were somehow more experienced or better suited for modern war is baseless), the article does not mention the military purges of 1930, initiated by Tuhachevsky, which were probably more harmful to the RKKA, as many prominent military theoritists, including Svechin (for example, Vadim Kozhinov "Великая Война России" ("The Great War of Russia") were repressed - they had far too much education - and Tuhachevsky, the great proponent of mobile warfare, beaten by POLAND in his only foreign war, Tuhachevsky, who gased revolting peasants, wanted the Genshtabists out of the way so his star may finally shine. With respect, Ko Soi.
I'm not sure that it's undisputed in what context the murder of Sergei Kirov should be seen. I remember reading and even watching a documentary displaying a totally different version than the one currently standing in the article. As the article now is written Sergei Kirov was close to Stalin and after the murder by someone else Stalin got afraid and this was one of the reasons for the purge. However, the other version is that Sergei Kirov was very popular in the party and in a secrete vote the party even wanted him to take over the position at the time held by Stalin. Stalin manipulated the voting to his own favour, but from then own he knew that a silent majority wanted to have him replaced, even though he didn't know exactly who had voted for himself and who had voted for Kirov. Stalin's solution was to kill Kirov. By doing so he had got rid of the direct threat of Kirov. Also, he had a legitimate reason (to find and kill Kirov's murderers) to root out opposition against himself in the party. I've not changed the version of the article, because I don't have the necessary sources so that I can give references, but I think that both versions should be listed. Smallchanges 11:54, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Regardless, it appears that around 8 million surplus deaths (4 million by repression and 4 million from famine) are attributable to the Soviet government, with a number of books suggesting a figure of between 15 to 20 million.
This is deliberately original research because the author in concern did not make such calculations. It will therefore be removed.
I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 17:20, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
I reversed both unjustified (unsummarized) recent reversals of contribs of user:Jacob Peters without even bothering to look into the actual text in detail. Such reversals are absolutely inadmissible and will be removed on sight.. I dont' see any discussion whether this Peters guy a nasty troll or what, so that he must be reverted on sight. If his edits are wrong, I dont see it described.
On the other hand, I see Peters didn't write edit summaries either. I left him a message in the talk page. `' mikkanarxi 22:51, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
There is an excess of CIA-inspired propaganda on this page. There is no evidence that Stalin himself operated the cult of personality. Evidence from the archives published by J.Arch Getty and Robert J.Thurston also also casts doubt that the purges were initiated and operated by Stalin himself as opposed to regional NKVD units. The claim that Stalin weakened the country's defense with the purge of the officers is incorrect as archival research shows that a small 15% minority of the relevant cadres were affected; most of these were even reinstated after 1939. The claim that famine resulted from the imaginary confiscation of grain is also false. Archival research published by Stephen Wheatcroft and RW Davies shows that total collections in 1932 about 4 million tons lower than in the two previous years. There is also evidence on the "Holodomor" page which quotes Stalin as having been gravely concerned with the precarious situation in the countryside. He replied to an inquiry: "We will do everything required. Inform sieze of necessary help. State a figure."
Furthermore, there is a serious negligence of the miraculous economic and social advances made during Stalin. Industrial growth,medical care, education, cultural identity, urbanization were all made possible because of Stalin. Infant mortality plunged from aboug 175/1000 in 1926 to around 47/1000 in 1956. Life epxectancy which was about 35 years before the revolution expanded to about 67 years in 1956. The inclusion of a fringe viewpoint that "Russia would have expanded regardless of Stalin" is unsubstantiated. Comparing levels of growth of the 1920s to the 1930s shows that Stalin's policies alone contributed to massive expansion during the 1930s.
In regard to the death toll, this is also rife with errors and propagandistic POV nonesense. Alexander Solzhenitsyn is not a serious historian or scholar and his viewpoint does not take precedence over professional demographers like Frank Lorimer, Barbara Anderson, and Eric Silver who correctly estimated demographic losses to be in the range of 4-5 million. The attempted discredting of the archival material which show the true figures is reprehensible. Almost every scholar of Russian history acknowledges the declassified archival documents to be reliable. These include Stephen Wheatcroft, J.Arch Getty, V.Popov, V.Zemskov, Gregory Freeze, Ronald Grigor Suny, Sheila Fitzpatrick, and countless others.
To start with a laundry list of errors, 800 thousand people were not executed under Stalin. Rather, around 770 thousand received death sentences but not all of them were executed. Historian A.Dugin reported in the late 1980s that in 1921-1953, about 642,000 people were executed for political crimes.
The claim that 1.7 million died in the GULAG is also unsubstantiated. Archival reports put forth by V.Popov, V.Zemskov, and J.Arch Getty in English language have shown that around 1 million died in the GULAG in 1934-53. Of these 1 million, it should be taken into perspective that the majority of these occurred in 1941-45 when the government couldn't have done a thing to prevent them.
The claim that 389,000 kulaks perished during resettlement is also inaccurate. Their deaths occurred years after they were resettled. They died from standard illnesses that the rest of the population died from.
Also, it is generally agreed that the data are incomplete
This is absolutely false. This is not the view of most scholars. Stephen Wheatcroft distinctly refuted claims that the archival data are somehow incomplete or unreliable.
http://sovietinfo.tripod.com/WCR-Secret_Police.pdf
The Soviet repressive system was complex and required records and a record-keeping system to operate. The managers of the Gulag, labour colony and special exile empires needed a set of accounting data to plan their work. The special police and judicial authorities needed to keep records. The central party leadership also required periodic reports from the secret police/Ministry of Internal Affairs on developments in the Gulag, labour colonies and special exile areas, and on the policing and mass repression operations. In their time these official records were kept in the appropriate secret archives of the NKVD and the party leadership. These secret accounting materials should not be confused with the non-secret propaganda materials that were published at the time.
When the ministry of Internal Affairs (MVD) lost control of the labour cmaps (ITL) during the Khrushchev period, the labour camp archives were transferred to the State Archives of the Russian Federation (GARF) or TsGAOR as it was known then. When Conquest refers to as "the Zemskov figures" are some of the summary data from these archives, which Russian historian V.N. Zemskov was able to publish from the late 1980s. These represent a few figures from amongst the thousands of Gulag accounting data which are now freely available for examination in fond 9401 of GARF. The fondy contain conjunctural reports on Gulag work, supply reports concerning Gulag requests to have the government increase average personal food rations and the size of the Gulag contingent on food rations, health reports, and general accounting reports.
Western historians who consider that all these data were falsified 60 years ago, and then held in secret to be produced in order to disinform them, appear to be suffering from an exaggeration of their own importance. When Gulag officials were pleading for more supplies they had no incentive to underestimate the number of prisoners. When Gulag officials were planning production they needed to know the real number of prisoners. The health departments needed to know how many were dying. When MVD leaders were briefing Stalin in their top security 'Osobye papki' reports they had good reason to avoid the charge of misleading him. When two different generations of MVD officials were briefing Khrushchev on the iniquities of their predecessors, in their top security reports, Kruglov in 1954 and Shvernik in 1963, they similarly had more to lose than gain by falsifying the figures.
since some categories of victim were carelessly recorded by the Soviets - such as the victims of ethnic deportations, or of German population transfer in the aftermath of WWII.''
This is also completely false. The figures on ethnic deportations and their deaths can be located in works by N.Bugai and by Polian. It was found that 85-90% of ethnic successfully were transferred to Central Asia and in around 1948 or so, the Tatar settlers in Central Asia produced more birth than deaths. Polian's work can be found here:
http://www.memo.ru/history/deport/
others believe the number to be considerably higher. Russian writer Vadim Erlikman[13], for example, has made the following estimations: Executions 1.5 million, Gulag 5 million, Deportations 1.7 million (out of 7.5 million deported), and POW's and German civilians 1 million, for a total of about 9 million victims of repression.
This is the opinion of one single author that should not take precedence over the conesensus of the majority of scholars of Russian and Soviet history. Vadim Erlikman's claim that 5 million died in the Gulag is completely unsubstantiated. Neither are the claims of 1.5 million executions of 1.7 million deaths in deportations substantiated.
What explanation is there that Erlikman's work takes precedence over the conesensus over the majority of scholars of Russian history? A fringe view should be treated as such.
These numbers are by no means the full story of deaths attributable to the regime however, since at least another 6 to 8 million victims of the 1932-33 famine must be added.
This is also a gross exaggeration. There is no evidence to corrobarate that 6 to 8 million died from famine. Demographic reports have concluded that excluding Kazakhstan for which there was not any appropriate record keeping, there were 2.3 million excess deaths broke down as:
Ukraine: 1,544,840 Lower Volga: 167,671 Central Volga: 107,085 North Caucuses: 305,285
http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/staff/faculty/harrison/archive/hunger/deaths.xls
Ronald Grigor Suny stated in "The Soviet Experiment" that there were 4 to 5 million deaths from famine.
In 1990, Stephen Wheatcroft wrote in Soviet Studies
Concering the scale of the famine in 1932/33, we now have much better information on its chronology and regional coverage amongst the civilian registered population. The level of excess mortality registered by the civilian population was in the order of 3 to 4 million. If we correct this for the non-civilian and non-registered population, the scale of excess mortality might well reach 4 to 5 million, which is somewhat larger than I had earlier supposed, but which is still much lower than figures claimed by Conquest and Rosefielde and by Roy Medvedev.
http://sovietinfo.tripod.com/WCR-Scale_Repression.pdf
Returning Soviet soldiers who had surrendered were viewed with suspicion and some were killed[19] compared with 3.5 million Soviet POW that died in German camps.
This has been refuted by Igor Pykhalov and the Russian archives. While a small minority of about 10-15% of traitors collaborated with the occupiers were punished but were released after six years, the vast majority of repatriated soldiers were either returned home or rejoined the army.
That does not address the issue. The famine did not result from the confiscation of grain. It resulted from two consecutive poor harvests in 1931 and 1932. Taken from "Years of Hunger: Soviet Agriculture, 1931-33" by Stephen Wheatcroft and R.W. Davies:
Year | Production | Collections | Remainder | Collections as % of production |
---|---|---|---|---|
1930 | 73-77 | 22.1 | 51-55 | 30.2-28.7 |
1931 | 57-65 | 22.8 | 34-43 | 40-35.1 |
1932 | 55-60 | 18.5 | 36.5-41.5 | 33.6-30.8 |
1933 | 70-77 | 22.7 | 47.3-54.3 | 32.4-29.5 |
They are imaginary in the sense described by right wing historians who baselessly claim that the famine was caused by grain collections. Jacob Peters
This is absolutely false. This is not the view of most scholars. Stephen Wheatcroft distinctly refuted claims that the archival data are somehow incomplete or unreliable. - Jacob Peters
That doesn't matter. It's the view of some scholars that the data are incomplete, and that is all that is necessary for the inclusion of the statement on Wiki.
Furthermore, what Wheatcroft argued was that the GULAG data were reliable. Wheatcroft did not address himself to the many other categories of Soviet victims, such as the German victims of resettlement and forced labour after the war. And Wheatcroft himself also acknowledged, IIRC, that the data from labour camps and resettlement programs were incomplete. And then there are the victims of Stalin's harsh scorched earth policies, and other policies such as his refusal to allow civilians to evacuate Stalingrad when it was under siege. The GULAG victims and victims of recorded executions are therefore, only a subset of Soviet victims and not the entire story by a long shot.
Also, what you need to understand is that there are a plethora of editors on Wiki who hold views that are diametrically opposed to yours. It took me many weeks of debate to negotiate that section as it stands, you can be assured that if you begin to edit it to reflect your own view you are only going to start another edit war with all the people who think Stalin was one of the worst mass murderers in history.
The section as it stands in fact covers all sides of the debate - it explains that scholars disagree, that some put the death toll at only 4 million and others at 50 million. And it tentatively suggests a compromise figure of 15 to 17 million, including famine victims. I had to fight very hard for those figures, because most editors wanted a figure of 20-30 million. Gatoclass 18:23, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
That doesn't matter. It's the view of some scholars that the data are incomplete, and that is all that is necessary for the inclusion of the statement on Wiki.
Of course it matters. It is falsely stated that is generally agreed that the data are incomplete when in fact most post-1991 scholarly work in regard to the Stalin era have incessantly cited archival data, believing them to be accurate. This can be found in general histories of Russia by Ronald Grigor Suny and Gregory Freeze.
Wheatcroft did not address himself to the many other categories of Soviet victims, such as the German victims of resettlement and forced labour after the war.
Wheatcroft discusses population transfers in this article:
http://sovietinfo.tripod.com/WCR-German_Soviet.pdf
There were not any victims of population transfers. There were 225,000 Crimeans transferred to Central Asia in 1944. Of these, 193,000 were located in their appropriate settlements in October 1946. Population loss occurred not due to action taken by the Soviet government but because of deteriorated economic conditions brought by war started by Germans. Whereas there were 183,000 Crimean Tatars transferred to Central Asia in 1944, their population actually exploded to 191,000 in Kazakhstan and 444,000 in Uzbekistan according to the 1959 census. The circumstances show that any and all population loss among them occurred due to the war imposed by the Germans.
Morever, Stefan Karner shows that there were close to 518,000 deaths of POWs from various countries in USSR. But this had nothing to do with the Soviets' actions but everything to do with the economic deterioration endured by USSR due to destructive war. When the POWs were registered in the facilities, it was found that over 90% of them survived. Those that died fell to ordinary illnesses that everyone dies from.
[quote]And Wheatcroft himself also acknowledged, IIRC, that the data from labour camps and resettlement programs were incomplete. [/quote]
If you are talking about the kulak settlers, this is incorrect. It is documented in the archives that there were 1.8 million deported kulaks in 1930-31 of which 400,000 died due to famine in 1933 and from ordinary illnesses that everyone at the time endured. Needless to say, these people were not killed but died ordinary deaths. The Soviet archives actually document measures by the Soviet government taken to ensure that the kulaks were receptive to proper care in the settlements.
And then there are the victims of Stalin's harsh scorched earth policies, and other policies such as his refusal to allow civilians to evacuate Stalingrad when it was under siege.
This is easily refuted by the fact that it was Germany that invaded USSR. Stalin's scorched earth policies actually helped to ensure that the Germans would not be able to loot the people's property. Plus, Stalin alone did not direct military affairs as this was left to the people's commissariat of defense.
The GULAG victims and victims of recorded executions are therefore, only a subset of Soviet victims and not the entire story by a long shot.
The insinuation that Stalin was responsible by the war is baseless and is common knowledge that it was Germany which started the war. If you are going to cite the cliche of the purges of military officers, this has been discredited:
1937: 4,474 officers arrested; 11,104 officers discharged; 15,578 total
1938: 12,750 officers arrested and discharged
1939: 357 officers discharged and arrested
Reinstatements occurred in the same span. In 1937, 4544 of those discharged for political reasons or arrested were returned to their posts; in 1938, this was 4089 and in 1939, this was 152. This leaves 8785 out of 19,900 unaccounted for. 6.9% of all infantry officers in the ranks as of 1936-37 had been dismissed but not reinstated by May 1940; the figure for officers active in 1938-39 was 2.3%. Source: "Life and Terror in Stalin's Russia", Robert J. Thurston
Also, what you need to understand is that there are a plethora of editors on Wiki who hold views that are diametrically opposed to yours.
This is meaningless. Their views have been thoroughly discredited since 1989. But it is sad to see Wikipedia to be dominated by right-wing zealots who censor the facts.
The section as it stands in fact covers all sides of the debate - it explains that scholars disagree, that some put the death toll at only 4 million and others at 50 million.
This section is blatantly skewed to favour those with inflated, unsubstantiated estimates. It accomodates Solzhenitsyn's deranged 60 million death toll while saying nothing about Frank Lorimer's 4-5 million death toll in the 1930s. As it stands, the likes of Applebaum, Erlikman, Conquest, and others belong to a fringe. Their views are not shared by the majority of scholars.
And it tentatively suggests a compromise figure of 15 to 17 million, including famine victims.
The famine figures are also criminally overestimated. Russian archives for Ukraine, North Caucuses, and Volga show an excess of 2.2 million deaths. Ronald Grigor Suny in his history about USSR stated 4 to 5 million overall died from famine while Wheatcroft in this article favoured a similar figure. In 1981, he stated that 3-4 million died in famine. Boris Urlanis in 1974 estimated 2.7 million deaths, Barbara Anderson and Eric Silver in 1985 estimated 2-3 million deaths.
http://sovietinfo.tripod.com/WCR-Scale_Repression.pdf Jacob Peters
With all due respect, I'm really not interested in re-opening this debate. Most if not all the points you raise have already been debated exhaustively on these pages. Rather than start the process all over again, I suggest you take the time to read the archive of this talk page going back over the last few months. I think you will probably find the response to most of your arguments there. If there are still some points you'd like to raise then that you feel have not been adequately dealt with, I'm prepared to listen to what you have to say. Gatoclass 14:07, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
You are completely incorrect in the suggestion that my points have been exhaustively refuted. Please don't dodge my points by referring me to outdated, irrelevant discussion like some burreaucrat. The purpose of this section is to discuss. As it stands, I have been correct on each and every single point. Jacob Peters
Of course there was cult of personality!What about all the statues, paintings etc produced to glorify Stalin as a demi-god. It is extremely naive and incorrect for anyone to suggest otherwise.
was the de facto leader and dictator of the Soviet Union from about 1928 to his death in 1953.
It is a deranged right-wing POV to call Stalin a dictator. He had always been amongst the main leaders of the Bolshevik Party which in 1917 was the most popular party manifested by their share in the Congress of Soviets. He was part of the Central Committee even before the 1905 Revolution and was one of the five original members of the Politbureau. He indisputably had the support of the majority of the party in the 1920s. Since the party represented the workers and peasants, the majority of the population in turn supported Stalin. Opinion polls show that the majority of Russians have stated that Stalin did more good than harm for the country.
Between 1934 and 1953 that position was, nominally, just one of several Central Committee Secretaries, but his leadership was universally acknowledged.
Stalin became prime minister in 1941 and was in this position until 1953. He was officially the leader of the government. Previously, Molotov had been premier.
Although many still defend Stalin's record, in the West Stalin's name has become popularly synonymous with the crimes of mass murder he is alleged to have committed and with tyranny.
This immediately implies the connotation that Stalin was an evil man and therefore those that support him are automatically on the defensive. This section needs to be cleansed of these deranged right wing POVs.
That is your opinion which fails to represent a neutral point of view. Stalin was amongst dozens of leaders of the Communist Party SU and led the council of people's commissars in 1941-53. To call Stalin a "mass murderer" is an allegation not supported by a judgement in a court of law. Wikipedia has a NPOV policy for the reason that is to be upheld. Jacob Peters
You fail to make a single convincing argument. With an ideological name user id, little of what you can say can be taken with credibility and anything you say is bound to be ridden with some ridiculous POV.
The familiar "if you don't agree with me, you're a revisionist" argument has gotten stale. Understand that there are differing viewpoints in history. Having a disagreement does not make one a "revisionist" but only someone with a different opinion.
You are completely incorrect about the Congress of Soviets which was by far the most democratic system of government there has been in the world. The Congress of Soviets preceded the Constituent Assembly. Out of 650 elected delegates, 390 were Bolsheviks and another 100 were Left Socialist Revolutionaries. On behalf of the Soviets, the Bolsheviks seized power with total legitimacy. The Constituent Assembly was a vastly inferior parliamentary form of government which deprived workers, peasants, and soldiers from input. The claim that the Bolsheviks performed poorly in the Constituent Assembly is unsubstantiated. As historian Evan Mawdsley explains, the SRs joined the Provisional Government coalition in May 1917 and became identified with it. Constantly outbit by the Bolsheviks, the SR PArty lost its influence among workers and soldiers. When the Assembly was closed, it was a symptom of SR weakeness. The SR Party lacked the local following to physically defend the Assembly building and there was no support from the rest of Russia. The rump SR Party lacked a working majority: they had lost the Left SR delegates and the Ukrainian SRs did not attend. Even without Lenin the Assembly would have fallen on its own weight.
The myths about Stalin packing in the Party with his supporters is a total myth which has been refuted by J.Arch Getty. In fact, Stalin always had the support of the party against Trotsky and later Bukharin because his path was understood to be calm and rational. It is a fact that in the 1920s the vast majority of the Party had supported Stalin.
The claim that Stalin sent peasants to "concentration camps" is a distortion and factual error. It is incendiary that you attempt to compare an anti-racist Stalin to the Nazis. Kulaks were not sent to concentration camps of any kind but were rather transferred to special settlements where they were placed in other sectors of the economy such as timber. Soviet archives document the great lengths the Soviet government took in order to ensure the safety of these people.
The comparison of opinion polls in Russia to plebiscites in the Third Reich is puzzling. If you're suggestion is that Russia is akin to Nazi Germany, then that is bogus. Jacob Peters
... the Bolshevik Party which in 1917 was the most popular party manifested by their share in the Congress of Soviets ... is indeed an example of a extreme "deranged Bolshevik POV". The Bolsheviks never were a popular party, the very a small but highly organized group that managed to gain a majority in a single vote of the Russian Socialdemocratic party, in which they were a minority by far. Then they gained power by a coup, defended it in a violent civil war, used it to install a totaliatarian dictatorship, which included military aggression, persecution of dissidents and the death of millions. Str1977 (smile back) 14:13, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
POV rants are not permissable. Unless you have constructive, mature discussion, please refrain from contributing to this section. Calling an immensely popular government leader like Stalin a dictator is a blatant violation of NPOV policy. There is no basis to the claim that Stalin was a dictator. All of the amateurish points above have been thoroughly discredited. I request to have this page unblocked. Jacob Peters
I stopped trying to be nice to these (
Personal attack removed) on wikipedia a long time ago. I thought I'd seen it all with the liberals trying to hide the facts about gun control politicians, but now I have found a (
Personal attack removed) trying to defend one of the most brutal dictators of all time.Jacob Peters, you are one (
Personal attack removed).
Saltforkgunman 01:24, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, crap.I thought personal attacks were in order.If Jacob Peters is a joke, I don't find it funny. Saltforkgunman 02:02, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Interesting but somewhat shocking to see somebody trying to prove that Stalin wasn't a dictator.
Sorry, but this is false. Stalin had always been a leading member of the Bolshevik Party which in summer of 1917 was the most popular political group in Russia. Stalin was one of seven original members of the Politbureau. Whereas the vast majority of the Bolsheviks joined only during and after 1917, Stalin had been with the Social Democratic Party since before the 20th century. In additon, Stalin was a delegate to earlier party congresses.
Besides, it is a flagrant violation of NPOV policy to call someone a dictator. The reason for this is because according to the POV of others, Stalin was not a dicatator. According to the POV of a deranged anti-communist fringe, Stalin was a dictator. "Wikipedia's list of dictators" is not a valid argument as Wikipedia is not exactly an valid source. The section for one slanders some of the greatest leaders of 20th century.
The evidence shows that the legislative process in the USSR was carried out collectively by the Supreme Soviet:
ARTICLE 30. The highest organ of state authority of the U.S.S.R. is the Supreme Soviet of the U.S.S.R.
it is a pretty adequate description of one of history's most brutal tyrants.
Calling a man a brutal tyrant even though he invaded not a single country is a pretty deranged POV. The evidence shows that Stalin was Russia's best leader since Peter I.
This has been more than adequately proven in hundreds of works.
No, it has not. "The Years of Hunger: Soviet Agriculture, 1931-33" by Stephen Wheatcroft and R.W. Davies does not at all portray a country dominated a single man. This book documents extensive communication and sometimes conflict between regional and central branches of leadership.
(removed sexist offesive personal attack, and ca. 100 words)
blatantly false, debunked above.
That is incorrect as the Bolsheviks formed the majority in the Congress of Soviets when it convened on 7 November 1917. Out of 649 delegates, there were 390 Bolsheviks.
By this logic, wikipedia could never assert anything that had been denied by a single crackpot.
This is not the view shared by most historians. In works by the premier scholars of Soviet history such as E.H Carr, RW Davies, and Stephen Wheatcroft, the word dictator is not to be found when discussing Stalin.
If by "deranged anti-communist fringe" you mean "vast majority of historians, not to mention the Russian people", then sure.
You have no way of measuring "vast majority of historians". In fact, most texts describe Stalin as "Soviet leader" which is a neutral term.
Opinon polls show that Russians overwhelmingly are positive of Stalin's legacy despite all the anti-Stalin propaganda they've been bombarded first with Khrushchev then with Gorbachev and then with quislings like Yeltsin.
That would be aside from Germany and Finland, right?
There was not an invasion of Germany as it was Germany that unleashed Operation Barbarossa. Neither was there an invasion of Finland. It was a mere border clash like the ones with Japan in Siberia in 1938-39. Neither was there an invasion of "East Poland" which was actually West Ukraine and West Byelorussia stolen by the Polish in 1921. By Sept 17, 1939 when Ukrainian and Byelorussian units moved in to liberate their land, the cowardly Polish militarist regime had fled to Romania. Neither was there an invasion of the Baltic states as they had legally permitted the deployment of Red Army forces. Jacob Peters
You have a rather funny definition of invasion, not to mention an extremely revisionist view of the Winter War. It was not a "border clash", it was an aggressive invasion by a much stronger power hoping to conquer a weaker one. Moreover, the definition of "invasion" is the aggressive movement of troops into a foreign country; a "counter-invasion" like the Red Army's invasion of Germany is still and invasion. This is all, of course, rather irrespective of the fact that whether or not Stalin actually invaded another country (though he clearly did) has anything to do with whether or not he is a dictator, something you have yet to demonstrate. It seems rather clear, however, that reality is not something that you're likely to allow to interfere with your POV, so unless the song and dance changes I don't think I'll be following this any further.
The term "revisionist" is completely a matter of perspective. If you were to propagate this slanderous rubbish in USSR, you would be considered some insane revisionist. Your perspective comes from the corporate press and think tanks whereas my perspective comes from progressive literature as shown in the Bolshaia Soviet Encyclopedia. The facts show that Finland at the incitement of the British essentially provoked the border clash. Furthermore, Finland became a separate country due to the extortionist Brest-Litovsk treaty that set forth Russian provinces to become colonies of Germany in the Mitteleuropa outline. Before 1918, there was never a separate Finland. What is called Finland was part of the Swedish Empire from 1150-1809 and later a part of Russia until 1918. During "Winter War", Finland was sent at least 350 aircraft, 1,500 cannons, over 6,000 machine guns, up to 100 thousand rifles, 650,000 handgrenades, 2,500,000 shells, 160,000,000 cartridges and much more by England, France, and Sweden.
It has been demonstrated numerous works by Stephen Wheatcroft and RW Davies in their histories of the Soviet economy that Stalin was far from a dicatator and that the structure of Soviet administration throughout its existence often involved conflict between central and regional branches as well as a high degree of autonomy for local districts. Jacob Peters
There is something you have all misunderstood and misinterpreted. While it is true that Stalin has been labeled a dictator by the almost entire population of the world it does not mean it is something objective. Our job as wikipedians and followers of the wikipedia NPOV policy is to report history as it happened. Dictator is a very subjective term, it is not objective...no where is there an outline as to what a dictator is nor is it a title given to someone s that of prime minister or president. It is not something that has been formally stated. Around the world people have labeled Stalin a dictator true...but they are not objective labels, Stalin was the leader of the Soviet Union...the de facto leader if you will, but he was not appointed dictator of the Soviet Union! Never! That title is simply inexistent. To Mr. White Guard, with whom I have already had this discussion previously, I ask please to set aside the political biases and concentrate on what I am trying to get through...Stalin might well in fact be a dictator by certain standards and opinions, but it is not a universally acknowledged fact...understand? It is not something that was implemented by law, it is simply something that certain people from certain political ideologies have chosen to label Stalin as...Whether Stalin was a dictator or not is not something I am here to argue, the point is plain and simple...To Label Stalin as a dictator on this webpage is to commit a violation of the rules of Wikipedia as horrible as that which the people that defend such label to stand claim the censorship of information was in the USSR...to please, understand, that labeling Stalin as a dictator is giving him a characteristic that is based entirely on judgment and opinion, not a universal truth (such Angela Merkel being the chancellor of Germany) but merely something that has been placed with a certain political bias...STALIN MIGHT HAVE IN FACT BEEN A DICTATOR; BUT SAYING THAT HE ACTUALLY WAS IS NOT SOMETHING WITH ENOUGH BASIS OR SUPPORT TO KEEP IT ON THIS PAGE...UNLESS OF COURSE SOMEONE FINDS THAT HE WAS MADE A FORMAL DICTATOR AT SOME POINT IN HIS CAREER...PLEASEEEEE...FORGET THE BIAS AND UNDERSTAND MY POINT! Kiske 06:23, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Saying that Mussolini and Hitler are dictators is also biased. I am not biased in the left wing, I am simply exposing a very simple point...a point I do not understand why right wing biased people keep ignoring...READ THE ABOVE! Kiske 15:54, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
A vote sounds legitimate...but I am afraid the right wing candidates will monopolize the voting...does the name "White Guard" ring a bell? Kiske 17:16, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I'd suggest a survey. An RfC might be an overkill. -- Lysy talk 19:27, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Stalin was a member of the Politbureau which collectively set forth the policy of the Communist Party. Indeed, Stalin had been of the original members of the Politbureau. Moreover, Stalin had been part of the Central Committee since 1907 which was the highest body of the Russian Social Democratic Labour Party. Keep in mind that 95% of Bolsheviks in November 1917 had joined the party only during previous months of 1917. Those with an equal degree of power with Stalin in the Politbureau included Molotov, Kalinin, Zhdanov, Voroshilov, Beria, Malenkov, Kaganovich, Mikoyan, and others. Between 1941-1953, Stalin was head of government as chairman of Council if People's Commissars having succeeded Molotov. Policy was then carried out by the Council of People's Commissars and the Deputy of Soviets. Stalin was in no way a dictator. He was not above the law. He was in fact one of the greatest, most beneficial leaders the Russia has seen since Peter. Jacob Peters
You are all missing the point! Whether or not he was a dictator is not what really matters here! What matters is the fact that because he was never formally given the "title" of dictator giving him such a title is giving a trait he was never actually given, which is, whether you like it or not, providing POV information. Stalin may have been a dictator, and it may be true that 99.9% of the world's population including the majority of former Soviet Citizens think and believe he might be a dictator...but providing him with that title is being POV...it is not an absolute truth! (Like Vicente Fox being the president of Mexico or Angela Merkel being Chancellor of Germany) it is a trait. It is like saying that George W. Bush is am imperialist or a conqueror or an aggressor...the facts are that he is an conqueror and an imperialist, but because he has not been awarded such a title formally, it would be POV to write "George W. Bush, president of the US and conqueror or invader of Iraq", even though it might be true because I am giving him a trait based on judgment, not on accuracy or solid facts...what is a dictator? Where do we define dictator? Where does a dictator begin or end? What are the limits? There is nothing in the world, no paper or anything that specifies this, so there is not way we can award him such a title in an accurate encyclopedia, even though in the end he might very well be a dictator...understand? Understand?! We are not debating his evilness or how democratic he was! We are debating the fact that the man has been called something he was never formally turned into and solely based on judgment. It is like saying (in another context) that a pornographic actress is a pervert of that David Lynch might be deranged because of his films or that a certain actor might be a bad actor or that James Joyce is a great writer...they are not traits that have been formally given (even though they might be true) to these people and should therefore not be placed on their page, in the initial part. Maybe in the later part of the article there could be a section talking about how good some people consider this writer (or how Stalin is considered by many to be a dictator)...Please, this is the last time I am going to try to convince you of this...If you don't understand...you are mentally retarded and I will be forced to create an editing war and change Dictator every chance I get in this encyclopedia...I am only sticking to wikipedian policies and doing what I should be doing...you are the ones that are wrong! Kiske 06:07, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I am not only raising the case of Stalin...and the fact that I am a communist has nothing to do with it! If dictator appears in several articles we should, because they are subjective adjectives, delete that article and delete the word dictator from all other introductions and article... Kiske 13:33, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I really do not understand all the fuss that is being made about the labelling of Stalin as a dictator. I think if we had asked the man himself if he were a dictator, he probably would have laughed and would not have cared one way or the other - as long as everybody did as he ordered. If by "dictator" we mean a political leader who is able to dictate the policies of a dictatorship, Stalin certainly qualifies. He could create laws and policies, or choose to ignore them, on his own authority. To all those who feel that the term dictator is in itself derogatory: please mind the concept of the "benevolent dictator". At least theoretically, being a dictator is not necessarily a bad thing. It is all the harsh oppression and brutal violence against the opposition that makes it bad. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. So, we should all be able to agree that Stalin was in fact a dictator, and most of us (like his successor Khrushchev did in On the Personality Cult and its Consequences) would also agree that he was in fact a malevolent dictator. I will give Stalin one thing though, that is that I don't believe he was in it for his own personal gain. He probably did think he was acting in the best interest of the Soviet Union, but of course he wilfully ignored (and acted against) the interests of the people under his rule. By the way, placing "state" above "people" is a defining characteristic of fascism, not so much of communism. Was Stalin a fascist? All the militarism, nationalism and personality worship are other indicators. I would like to see more of that debate reflected in this Wikipedia article. I believe at least a few scholars have written about it. Olav L 12:39, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
The insinuation that Communists for who you use the pejorative "Stalinist" are political "marginals" is outrageous as is the comparison of them to Nazis. Communist parties have long been part of the mainstream in the bourgeois parliamentary system. They received between 20 to 35% of the vote throughout the post-war period in France, Italy, and Finland. Today, they still poll about 6.5 million votes in Japan and 2.5 million in France and Italy. Communists currently serve in the governments of a diverse array of countries ranging from India to Syria to South Africa. Jacob Peters
In my personal opinion Stalin was an evil dictator, only Hitler was worse. However saying so in the introduction is POV, and in fact takes away from the impact of the article since it is better to trust the reader to make up his or her own mind. Steve Dufour 17:33, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I am responding to the RfC.
Folks, this should be an EZ dispute to solve!
You simply mention how he is viewed as a dictator (or synonym) by group x and viewed as a liberator (or synonym) by group y. This would adhere to NPOV. So who is going to make this edit? An please stop, those of you who appear to be doing some bad faith-ing and POV-pushing. C.m.jones
I support calling stalin a dicator. Per Staberinde and others, it is an academic NPOV term used for Stalin by many academic sources.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 18:34, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I personally think that Stalin should be called dictator but some other users(Nixer, Kiske etc) have opposite view-- Staberinde 12:16, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
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