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Should the lead say "prominent and prolific"? This is currently under debate.
"Prolific": this is simply a matter of fact, Haydn wrote a ton of stuff (see, for example, the list of works at the end of Webster's biography). Prolific is not a peacock word; there are composers (such as Czerny) who were prolific but not much admired.
"Prominent": I could go either way, but in a way I think this is factual as well; Haydn's music is performed and recorded a lot, it gets taught as part of the history of music, a fair chunk of the Penguin Guide is about him, he has a long New Grove article, etc. So it seems not unreasonable to indicate his standing in the lead. Opus33 ( talk) 15:25, 27 June 2016 (UTC)
I can't really argue with either word, but there is no denying that they are peacock words, and they don't change their nature just because they are considered accurate. Haydn was prolific and prominent, no doubt of it. But a reader who is unfamiliar with the topic has nothing to judge those words by. What makes someone "prominent"? How many works do they need to produce to become "prolific"? 10? 50? 100? The lead best sticks to facts that do not require the reader to interpret evaluations that have no clear measure, as the second sentence does presently. Would it be better to actually state the number of works by Haydn? Or to give examples of what makes him prominent? A quote by an authoritative source? If he is referred to as the "Father of the Symphony" and "Father of the String Quartet", isn't that enough? -- Escape Orbit (Talk) 12:17, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
I have long found the word "prolific" in the opening of the article to be grating. The comment is made above that "there are composers (such as Czerny) who were prolific but not much admired". That is of course correct, and it also illustrates the problem: the word takes on asteistic connotations. When used for a composer it can often imply, particularly to the sceptical reader, the presence of a B-grade composer who churns out a lot of mediocre work. Haydn has been peculiarly vulnerable to this kind of lazy characterisation (many works but of no distinction) by people who don't understand music. I think the opening of the article would be perfectly good without any adjective to describe Haydn as a composer. The principal reason is that the best writing, whether journalistic or academic, presents the facts and allows the reader to work out their own summary adjectives for what they are reading. I don't see the benefit of forcing one-word descriptions of Haydn upon the reader in the article's opening sentence.
I also concur with the separate point raised by Escape Orbit that the word "prolific" is troublesome because it lacks a yardstick. If the measure were number of minutes of music composed per year of adult life, I suspect Mozart would have been more prolific than Haydn. Yet we would never dare use the word "prolific", above all other words, to describe Mozart. Which brings us back to the earlier point. Syek88 ( talk) 06:42, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
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This page should not be speedy deleted as an unambiguous copyright infringement, because looking at the original ( https://courses.lumenlearning.com/musicapp_historical/chapter/f-j-haydn/) licenses and attributions, the lumenlearning course is actually the younger of the two articles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.133.46.46 ( talk) 08:48, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
Agreed, that page lists wikipedia as a source: CC LICENSED CONTENT, SHARED PREVIOUSLY Provided by: Wikipedia. Located at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haydn. License: CC BY-SA: Attribution-ShareAlike - 97.92.91.74 ( talk) 09:03, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
The term "Father of Anything" is of questionable import, and the author of The Classical Style unsurprisingly avoids this cringe-inducing term in the whole of his book. There are in total six mentions of the word, five relating to Mozart's letters, and one to theological aspects of Bach's Mass in b. (Free to borrow for 14 days on Archive.org for registered users. I've got it at the moment.) I intend to delete the whole sentence, not least because it doesn't deserve to be associated with Charles Rosen's interesting and thought-provoking volume. MinorProphet ( talk) 22:08, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
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Haydn was born in Vienna, not Rohou! 2409:4050:D9C:5DF4:91A0:55B4:711D:2325 ( talk) 05:53, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
remove that " - was Haydn Croatian? ", because is not just an improvement, but its just too an pseudo-theory, and for being disrespectful to the german austriac composer 2804:7F2:78A:1B8C:31AB:B23D:6163:6C97 ( talk) 18:07, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
Perhaps I'm going to get demoted for appreciating such a dad joke, intentional or not, but... I enjoyed the phrasing of the second sentence. He was in fact very instrumental. Evedawn99 ( talk) 12:56, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
I find the title attributed to Haydn "the Father of Classicism" pretty ridiculous cause his use of harmony was nowhere near his brother's level, and Mozart derived stuff far more from his brother than him. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v80s4yjSdQM&t=1m9s (K.466/i) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ5zp_bH0QE&t=18m10s (K.449/iii) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v80s4yjSdQM&t=10m18s (K.345/ii) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gDxnpn5vb4&t=4m27s & https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppTToo8lrMQ&t=745s (K.551/ii) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=en-ekCM2Lu4&t=5m38s (K.465/ii) Haydn's emotional depth with harmony is nowhere near his brother as well. (let's remember the notorious bashing of Haydn by Berlioz, Schumann, Hanslick, etc). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dzmj8lRLHh0&t=10m40s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0u_XpSjLdw&t=7m23s
If Haydn was really the Father of Classical genres, how come Mozart never talked about it in his letters? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiwickedness ( talk • contribs) 05:03, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
Franz Joseph Haydn[a] (/ˈhaɪdən/; German: [ˈfʁants ˈjoːzɛf ˈhaɪdn̩] (About this soundlisten); 31 March[b] 1732 – 31 May 1809) was an Austrian composer of the Classical period. He was instrumental in the development of chamber music such as the piano trio.[2] His contributions to musical form have earned him the epithets "Father of the Symphony" and "Father of the String Quartet".[3][4] 103.167.66.46 ( talk) 12:22, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
Sbishop ( talk) 16:14, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
Joseph Haydn | |
---|---|
Born | Franz Joseph Haydn 31 March 1732 |
Died | 31 May 1809 | (aged 77)
Notable work | List of compositions |
What should I propose the infobox for classical composers? -- Aesthetic Writer ( talk) 22:49, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
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Is there a page where we can put down the influence of Haydn on modern music, what movies and tv shows his concertos and symphonies have been used in. E.g. I want to put in that Haydn's Trumpet Concerto in E flat major was chosen by Jung Jae-il to be used in Squid Game tv-show, but don't think there is anywhere on the page for this to be mentioned. It is only the third and final movement of the concerto used but still think what if people find it interesting. Is there already a seperate page for this?@ Yeon Hyun-woo Yeon Hyun-woo ( talk) 07:57, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
What is this notation on the IMSLP pages for Haydn and where is it discussed in this article? "Hob.II:23" 108.51.169.236 ( talk) 16:23, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
Is there any reason as to why this article does not have an infobox? AustinRedd007 ( talk) 17:08, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
Nearly all wikipedia biographical pages have an infobox, for consistency this page should have one too. Ecrm87 ( talk) 18:45, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
Why is the very important work Messiah not mentioned? 2600:1011:B331:6BD1:B8D2:649F:931F:1131 ( talk) 18:05, 20 February 2024 (UTC)