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This was in the article:
New entry: I am the President of a chapter of Golden Key International Honour Society at a major university, and given the controversy listed wanted to clarify how a portion of the membership dues are used.
I took it out 98.77.104.249 ( talk) 15:17, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
That Ronald Reagan is listed as having been in this honour society considering the fact that reagan was 66 years old in 1977, the supposed founding date of this 'non-profit' organisation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.36.204.253 ( talk) 03:19, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
He is HONORARY MEMBER ONLY! —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
76.186.134.49 (
talk) 04:16, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
I moved these from the main article because they took up 3/4 of the first page. That's ridiculous. Cburnett 18:08, 5 June 2007 (UTC) {{Cleanup|date=April 2007}} {{cleanup-rewrite}} {{POV}} {{unreferenced|article|date=November 2006}}
From a objective critique standpoint, I feel this article must clarify the term "honorary members" - how does GK create honorary members and how does the selected person accept honorary membership?
I also feel that a reference needs to be presented supporting the statement "most members of Golden Key's board are university professors and presidents." And besides, the word 'most' should not be used as it is vague - how bout a percentage here?
-- CmdrGuard 16:31, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Bebedebroadway 20:08, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
This seems just like a puff piece... could someone add NPOV? I thought Golden Key was just a "take your money and give you a little worthless cord" thing?
It is. However, if you look at the history, Exploding Dog keeps deleating anything negative about these guys as 'unsourced'(while leaving in unsourced comments claiming it's nearly as prestegious as phi betta kappa).
This article is a joke, and should not be trusted.
Note the famous members are 'honorary' (they wern't actually members) and that this is a for-profit company.
This article is in serious need for some balance. Therefore I am adding {{POV}} until it is sorted out.
The current sections are:
What about the community service that is one of the focus' of Golden Key? As a suggestion, take a look at some of the individual chapter websites.
I will point out here that I am a Committee member of the University of Canterbury chapter of Golden Key, so I will be limiting myself.
Lee Begg 12:07, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Phi Beta Kappa is also a , "take your money and give you a little worthless cord" thing... it has a $55 USD membership fee itself...
The article which states that the society is a 'scam' is completely biased. It assumes that total expenditure is financed by membership fees. To inculde it in the article without noting its shortfalls is extremely biased and undermines the neutrality of the artilce. Amonthemerciful 08:12, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
First of all, there is more than one article referenced. Second, you seem to have misunderstood the remarks regarding the membership fee. Third, those issues are discussed in the "controversies" section, which includes other points of view as well. As I said above, feel free to improve the article. Exploding Boy 15:47, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Let us say that the total membership fees is $1,000,000 and that, as above, total 'administrative expenses' is $2,997,827... then the Honour Society's policy is to use 25% of membership fees, $250,000, towards that $2,997,827 total 'administrative expenses'... Hence, the other 'administrative expenses' may be paid for by other non-mebership income. The mere fact that the total 'administrative expenses' is 47% of total expenditure says nothing about whether the policy is being carried out. The Ubysses article attempts to imply that total expenditure is paid for SOLEY by membership fees, and as 47% of total expenditure is used for 'administrative expenses' this is higher than the 25% limit in the policy... but the 25% limit is about membership fees, not total expenditure, and total expenditure IS FINANCED BY OTHER NON-MEMBERSHIP INCOME!! Amonthemerciful 05:34, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
On the "NO SECOND ROUND" thing, the point isn't that more people (with lower grades) are asked in to fill some sort of quota, but that a large net (top 15% of students) is cast right away, so that students who can pay that are in the top 14% of students can get in, while students that are in the top 1% of students who can't pay aren't allowed in. So, in that sense, lower achieving students do get in over higher achieving students who can't pay.
-Posted by a guy who doesn't really know how to use Wikipedia
The point is the principle. Sure a good number of the top 1% can pay, but if any of them can't, then the organization's mandate is put into question. If it's about rewarding the top achievers, then the top achievers should be allowed membership in the organization regardless of financial status. Otherwise, it's about the money, not the level of achievement. And it should be noted that in Canada, where both the cited articles originate from, there are few other (if any) "honours societies" competing with the Golden Key, so all the comparisons to "Phi Betta Kappa" mean very little in the Canadian context. -Same guy
I think I have sat on the sideline for long enough. I am going to add some text soon, mostly about the education and community service aspects of Golden Key, unless someone beats me to it. -- Lee Begg 11:41, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Inside information...
Fact: The invitation for new members to join officially remains open for 12 months after the initial letter to do so has been sent.
Also, nearly all decent universities will provide interest free loans to their students.
Golden Key does not favour wealthy students anymore than any other honour society.
Also, please remove all claims that cannot be proven. I look forward to posting more about GK in the near future.
It is not 'sepeculation' to state that it is held by "some" to be the most pretigious... I and others here are that "some" - the sentence is not "speculation" as much as it is inward reflection... ;)
'Prestige' may be defined as, "the level of respect at which one is regarded by others" - it is cleary a subjective thing - whether that level of respect is deserved or not is immaterial. In any case, there are enough people on this thread arguing for the term 'prestige' to make it so regarded by them, even if it is not deserved in whatever other standard...
Now that we've gotten that out of the way, we can discuss the reasons that it may or may not be deserved, but as I noted above, it is completely immaterail to the definion and, hence, the use of the term 'prestige' on the page. We must be precise when using terms in an encyclopedia, and your emotive response to an undeserved use of the term does not make it any less true of it fitting the definition above. It is subjective, deserved or not, hence, it is used on the page - talk to the forefathers of the english lanuguage or the publishers of the english dictionary if you don't like the meaning... It seems that it is your mis-comprehension of the menaing of the term which leads to your emotive opposition to its use on the page. 'Pretige' of an institution relates solely to the sentiment of the public to that institution - that sentiment is dynamic and may be influenced by other standards such as history, assosciation, etc, and the factor influencing that sentiment will change as the important standards of society change... It is a cultural holding in the minds of the populace and not an outcome measured by standards. It is in the minds of the people, and not in the thing itself - it is, as so defined, "the level of respect at which [an institution] is regarded by others" and the institution may be regarded a high level of respect for no particular reason at all, but it will have the defined 'prestige' nonetheless. [AmonTheMerciful]
please outline explicitly what it is that you disagree with - do not merely post links - please discuss it in a reasoned fashion. adress the content or concede it...
in particular the sentence expresses a setiment - it cannot by definition be 'biased' - "i like coke" cannot be biased, it is simply an expression of sentiment - a sentence "coke is the best drink" needs to be sourced - but how can one source one's own sentiments... and if those sentiments are held by a majority but not sourced, does it make them biased--- NO!! please use reson and logic and do not post links to clearly unnecessary policies that were not intended for the particular example. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.101.158.111 ( talk • contribs)
Mr Neurophure - as it pleases you to delete unsourced sentences I will take apart every f#@ken sentence that is not sourced, in the interests of a consistent application of Wikipedia policy :) thank you and regards, [AmonTheMerciful] —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
220.101.158.111 (
talk •
contribs)
hahaha - I'm "wrong" - thank you for the delicate use of reason to come to that...I have posted for your benefit an extract which you need to think about:
""Take any action allowed to be vicious: Wilful murder, for instance. Examine it in all lights, and see if you can find that matter of fact, or real existence, which you call vice. In which-ever way you take it you find only certain passions, motives, volitions and thoughts. There is no other matter of fact in the case. The vice entirely escapes you, as long as you consider the object. You never can find it, till you turn your reflexion into your own breast, and find a sentiment of disapprobation, which arises in you, towards this action. Here is a matter of fact; but 'tis the object of feeling, not of reason."[HUME]
Neurophyre - you must not assume what you take to be improper is concrete at all... but I thank you for your interest in the finer points of my posts - it pleases me taht someone takes the time... [AmonTheMerciful] (AND, your constant talks about the "four tidels" thing is becoming tiresome...)
HI,
I've discovered what may be a more unbiased source for this discussion. Please see the article entitled "Honor Lite" in the Students Section of the March 22, 2002 issue of The Chronicle of Higher Education. If you are a student at a university, chances are pretty good that your library subscribes to it (both the health science and regular library subscribe to it at mine). Very enlightening article. I trust this source more than The Ubyssey and e.Peak (I don't trust those sources at all). Good luck finding the article.
For those who have no way of accessing the Chronicle article, you can read a different, but similar, article at [1]. This is how I discovered the Chronicle article.
(You can't access the Chronicle article on their website without a membership www.chronicle.com) 216.160.225.153 20:58, 22 October 2006 (UTC) 216.160.225.153 21:00, 22 October 2006 (UTC)C
Thanks for the heads up, I'll try to access it when I next have time. -- Neurophyre( talk) 04:57, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Very useful article. Thanks. Nilvyn 19:14, 7 November 2006 (UTC) Nilvyn 19:14, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
I placed the cleanup and NPOV tags at the top of the article. I think most of us can agree that this article is in horrible shape and is being sporatically edited and routinely gutted (including the talk page!), not to mention being copmpletely messed up structurally. There seems to be a lot of agendas that are really wreaking havoc on this article, so I hopefully we can start from scratch and rebuild this into a decent encyclopedic entry. - Masonpatriot 14:16, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
For those here who have not had much experience with Wikipedia, it is important to note that talk pages are for discussion of the article and potential improvements, not discussion of the subject of the article. Personal accounts of experiences with the society won't find an interested audience here, and would be more effective if posted somewhere else. -- William Ager 22:11, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
I came to this wikipedia page to find out if Golden Key is a scam or not before I cough up $75. It would be inappropriate to say "this is a scam" on the wikipedia entry, but the information on this talk page was exactly what I was looking for. It should stay because it's a discussion on how to characterize the subject of the article, but can't be included in the article page because it is anecdotal. </twocents>
Anyone got a list of well known regular (not honorary) members? In all the material that I've seen, Golden Key touts the list of Honorary members, but doesn't list famous members who joined as college students. I can't say it's a deliberate omission, but it does leave me curious. -- 16:58, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
That honorary members section is junk. 75.157.222.39 ( talk) 07:06, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Anyone ever travel through the Golden Key Society to assist in another country? I am supposed to go to another country and have to make my own travel arrangements. Anything? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.242.230.45 ( talk) 09:24, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
I noticed that this page read like an advert for the organization. I have restored some semblance of "journalism" to it today using previously submitted information.
History shows their PR dept can't keep their hands off it.
Feel free to restore missing information and citations. Shamwatch ( talk) 05:23, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
I tried restoring some missing information in the Controversy Section with reputable sources, and it wouldn't allow me to do so. I guess the Society's PR people have gotten hold of this page and don't allow anyone else to edit it. It is a shame that Wikipedia is now helping GKIHS to dupe more students to join by hiding and glossing over the controversy and the sources of information that support it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.66.233.37 ( talk) 16:48, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
Per WP:SELFPUB in WP:V, sources on a subject published by the subject themselves cannot be used as the primary basis for an article. This article fails that criterion heavily, being based almost entirely on the website of the subject. This also means that it currently fails notability guidelines, and if proper and reliable sources are not found, the article is in danger of being deleted. -- William Ager ( talk) 06:13, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
I find this statement non-verifiable: "A recent ACHS report stated that no other honor society provides more tangible benefits and services to its members than Golden Key." This report is not published anywhere, and certainly not by the ACHS, so should be removed. This exact sentence has also been used in Golden Key promotional material.
Shamwatch (
talk) 06:44, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
There is ample discussion whether Golden Key exists only to serve and honor its members, so I propose a "Controversy" section added. There is a 2005 article in Peak, Simon Fraser University's newspaper, in which issues are raised regarding Golden Key. [2]
In addition, the 16 May 2009 version of this article included reliable sources arguing that Golden Key is a questionable honor society. Unfortunately they were not presented from NPOV and removed with the 24 May 2009 edit.
I would appreciate if others could assist in finding reliable sources supporting and arguing against Golden Key as an honor society. Mystere ( talk) 06:48, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
I agree there should be a Controversy section added. There have been many questions raised over the years. Any "nonprofit" that spends so much on travel and pays their CEO a 1/4 million dollars in salary, for example, and spends so comparatively little on benefits to their paying members is suspect. Currently, the article reads like a Golden Key press release.
Shamwatch (
talk) 17:24, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
I am a student in the US who has of course received information from Golden Key as have many others. I have read through all the drama on this talk page and see that some people have good points etc and others are just making personal attacks. I don't have a dog in this fight if that saying can apply here, but I am ofc someone who got the info from them so I am interested in learning about the nature of this society. Here is my assessment as of February 18, 2011.
The article has a feel to me that someone from the society itself has indeed been keeping watch over it even in the Controversy section. I am wondering about this bit where they talk about prestige. I and most people I know had never heard of this society. Truth be told, Phi Beta Kappa is really the only prestigious one as far as I know. I mean just being in it people will say "Oh my he was in Phi Beta Kappa." I don't know what being in PBK gets you on a job interview, but you do impress people and your girl (or guy, whichever) as most people (at least in the United States) know of it. Anyway, you need to actually have it fit some criteria for being prestigious I guess and maybe determine what actual prestige it grants (good luck with that). I don't feel comfortable using this article for information I can use in trying to decide how I should think of this society.
I think that given the fact that so many people get the emails and letters having the right and correct info here is crucial. It should certainly not be from the perspective of this society. People need to know A, what it actually gets members as told from a reliable third party-perspective. B, a reliable third-party assessment of the practices of the organisation that seem to be in question.
I think one of those Wiki-admins should take a look at this article as it is somewhat important in my opinion. People actually do read wiki when they want to get information on something quickly and having the right info here will help someone to better decide. If it is a shady operation as some people say then it would maybe help them avoid getting rooked.
P.S. If you use personal attacks or w/e in your reply don't expect me to take your reply seriously, because trust me, I won't. TheArchaeologist ( talk) 10:04, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
How about just editing the article to make if more factual and leave out all the opinions (both pro and con)?
I realise that uni students tend to get all hot and bothered about all sorts of things, but there seems to be a whole lot of emotional baggage attached to this article and the talk page.
The 'controversy' section seems to be based only on a couple of op-ed pieces, and seems to be an unusually large part of a wiki entry, especially as it appears to relate to past-history more than current finances. If there are some hard financial facts available (eg. last years total new members, total membership fees collected, total scholarship value allocated etc.) they should be included in the article with appropriate referencing. But it seems as if hard data aren't available on this, so it falls into the realm of speculation, which shouldn't be included in a wiki article. Some stats about numbers of chapters and members in each country and so forth would be nice too.
From the comments in this talk page, a lot of the ill-will towards GK appears to be resentment that a) you don't get much tangible benefit for the membership fee, and/or b) some people involved in the organisation are getting paid substantial amounts. Neither of these issues are unique to GK - I never got my money's worth from Mensa, APESMA, IEEE, IEAust, RACI, RAS and the many other professional and other societies and organisations I've joined over the years. But that's because I don't tend to get myself involved and "take advantage" or what these organisations have to offer. I don't expect GK to be any different (I just joined last week - simply because it seemed like a cute idea and I fancy having another pin to tack onto my jacket while I'm in the mood. It's not fair to label an association a "scam" just because it doesn't offer (to some members) great value-for-money.
ps. Regarding the comments about it being cheaper to just put a note on your CV that you were "offered" GK membership, or simply stating that you were in the "top 15%" of students academically, are incorrect. Such notations on a CV are unsubstantiated, while a GK membership listed on your CV (preferably with a member no.) is (in theory) verifiable - a prospective employer could check with CK that the applicant is indeed a GK member. And, at least in my case, the invite letter (on behalf of GK) came direct from my uni, with a cover letter from the uni vice-chancellor which specifically mentions "academic achievement qualifies you for membership". The GK invite came the same week as my "Letter of Commendation" from the uni (based on my GPA for the previous calendar year), so I infer that the GK mailing list is generated by the uni as part of their annual processing of the previous calendar year's results.
Also, the comment that you can just attach your uni transcript to your CV to show that you were in the "top 15%" is also not really correct - unless an employer chooses to wade through the details of uni policy of grade distribution and GPA calculation, a uni transcript doesn't easily covey if you were in the top 5% or 25% or whatever. (At least none of the uni transcripts I have report a student ranking). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.239.97.132 ( talk) 12:59, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
The unsigned writer (apparently from Australia per the IP address) makes interesting points, but they are moot since GK is not transparent as to how much money is raised, nor where it goes. GK apparently does not publish its membership numbers by school or country, and there is no complete published financial data outside the US IRS 501(c)(3) Form 990 tax return which is available free of charge from Guidestar. This tax form shows the current CEO received in excess of $345,000 in 2009 compensation and travel expenses for the staff were over $650,000 while they ate $251,000 worth of food! $796,000 for travel and food alone is much more than the amount of scholarships reported as awarded that year ($546,000). It's up to the reader to determine, when comparing the same expenses to other competing organizations, if these expenses are a good use of membership funds. I attempted to address this a couple of years ago with these facts, but they were deleted.
Arguably, any honor society membership has little value past one's initial professional job other than networking with peers met during school years; that said, presenting that one was a "Golden Key Honour Society invitee" on a resume will show that the student is a top performer without spending close to $100 for the privilege. Shamwatch ( talk) 18:38, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
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Should discussions of a Controversy section be confined to the talk page? This revision seems to include such a discussion in the article itself. Is this appropriate? ak5791 Talk 16:10, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
See my added section below. "Controversy" section apparently removed by Golden Key Staff: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Golden_Key_International_Honour_Society&diff=prev&oldid=510963000 Shamwatch ( talk) 05:05, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
While comparing previous versions, I noticed several from user AHouska. As it happens, there is an Ashlyn Houska listed as Director of Operations on the organization's website as of today (3 January 2013). The most egregious changes were on the Funding section, which was reversed later by others, and removal of the Controversy section. See edits on 7 Sept 2012, 5 Sept 2012. See side by side Funding section here: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Golden_Key_International_Honour_Society&diff=prev&oldid=510963000 User AHouska has made other changes back through 2010.
User AHouska also removed the Controversy section and replaced it with "Fund Distribution." See side by side: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Golden_Key_International_Honour_Society&diff=prev&oldid=510963000 Shamwatch ( talk) 05:00, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
In reading through the Fund Distribution section, I see no reason for an NPOV tag. Unless someone can provide a meaningful reason within one week, I'm going to remove it.-- TDJankins ( talk) 20:13, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
Does anyone have information one way or another as to whether or not those receiving Honorary Membership in Golden Key have to be asked if they accept it? Naraht ( talk) 14:39, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
There are also articles in the Portuguese Wikipedia and the Chinese (see the Languages to the left side of the article). The Portuguese is pretty vanilla, but it looks like the Chinese was translated at a point when the article was pretty NPOV. Not sure how much these can be dealt with other than with a native speaker. (Might be a bit in the Chinese we can simply chop). Naraht ( talk) 12:39, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
A user has recently begun making sweeping changes to this article. That user claims no conflict of interest on the user talk page, which I will assume is true (i.e., the user does not work for Golden Key and is not a member). User:Fdrlwi, could you please describe the nature of the changes you are making? Chubbles ( talk) 17:48, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
I have a grandson that is about to be college age. I did some research on the Society and was very impressed. I went back and looked at some older versions of the page and honestly couldn't figure out how it could have changed into what it was today. I felt that the page needed an update and some positive items. Why do you think all the negative things should remain? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fdrlwi ( talk • contribs) 22:16, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
And I don't understand why you want to continue to put things out that happened many years in the past. The organization from what I can tell has been through so bad publicity but they seem to be somebody in this day and age that are actually trying to help individuals. So Why do you want to keep reminding people of this. Statues are being torn down in southern states and history is being rewritten or left out entirely because it makes people look bad or hurts others feelings. So why not let an organization put the things that happened and weren't the fault of the current administration, as far as I can tell, away so that they can go forward. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fdrlwi ( talk • contribs) 19:08, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
If I'm in an edit-war, then Chubbles it looks like you probably are also. And who is to say who is right or wrong, yes, I undo because I believe you are just trying to keep trouble stirred up. And outdated is outdated. Who are the administrators of Wikipedia anyway? And who gets to decided what one page must say. I think there is enough negative information in this world without posting things that have no bearing on today. And another thing, I don't know who Be347863 is. And other than the undo I did last night, these other things happened while I was sleeping. Unlike some who must have nothing else to do and stay up all hours no matter their timezone, I don't. But I will revert as often as I'm able because I believe my voice should be heard and that there is nothing wrong with my words. And as for talking, you don't want to talk and explain why you think negative information should stay or why you are the one that is fighting this battle. I believe in right and wrong but I also believe that things are not always so black and white and that you have an ulterior motive and these other guys are probably friends of yours, if not you yourself, and are helping you to keep from breaking the rule you are so fond of posting on my page that I'm breaking. Maybe if you were honest about things instead of hiding, then we might really have a discussion and see if things couldn't be different. So please don't accuse me of being someone other than who I am. And what are sockpuppets anyway? — Preceding unsigned comment added by fdrlwi ( talk • contribs)
Can someone please explain why User:Duffbeerforme removed a comment that I made about the Better Business Bureau's rating of Golden Key and sourced it with the location of where they have it on their page. What is a reliable source if not from them and how am I suppose to put positive things on the page if everyone keeps removing them? If this simple thing can't be added then what exactly can be? This was a positive comment about the organization. Fdrlwi
Someone please tell me how you are suppose to source something from a third party if there is no third party. And just why the actual source of something is not significant enough to be listed. People go to the Better Business Bureau for many reasons to check out businesses or organizations. And since they give a rating and people use this rating to gauge many different aspects of the entity why it is not a reliable source. I keep getting my statement removed and I'm trying to show people that check out the Wikipedia page that the Organization is a different one from what the negative publicity from so many years ago show as a negative. Hopefully someone out there will explain. It looks like to me that user:duffbeerforme has a reason but will not say why they want to keep Golden Key as a negative organization when they actually do so much good. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fdrlwi ( talk • contribs) 18:52, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
First of all, to be fair, the reference on John Holmes was horrible. The reference says that a student who lived across the hall who didn't want to be identified identified him as Golden Key. If Ahouska had challenged the reference, I would have been fine with the removal.
I would accept replacement of the info with what is in https://www.goldenkey.org/about-us/overview/ : Honoraries include Desmond Tutu, Elie Wiesel and Bill Clinton. Naraht ( talk) 21:46, 15 February 2018 (UTC)