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Requested move 1 September 2020
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
No consensus for any specified resolution. Although I believe that there is a consensus that the current setup should change, I do not see a consensus supporting any of the many proposed possible resolutions. I am therefore closing this as no consensus at this time.
BD2412T 23:00, 11 November 2020 (UTC)reply
– Subject was known to the public and referenced strictly as "Abe Martin" after the then-very popular
Abe Martin (comic strip).
Here is Abe Martin (1906–1997) at www.justsportsstats.com.
Here is Glenn "Abe" Martin at Saluki Hall of Fame.
Here is Glenn (Abe) Martin at FB-Guide-Records.pdf.
Here is Abe Martin at Pro Football Reference.
Here is Glenn "Abe" Martin in Southern Illinois University at 150 Years: Growth, Accomplishments, and Challenges.
Here is
Glenn "Abe" Martin at ABCA Hall of Fame.
Here is Martin, Glenn Abe at JOHPER: Journal of Health, Physical Education, Recreation, Volume 18. Also,
here is his gravesite, with the gravestone engraved "MARTIN GLENN "ABE"". In fact, nowhere is he indicated as simply "Glenn Martin". The field at Southern Illinois University is
Abe Martin Field, not "Glenn Martin Field". If consensus skews towards preference for the form with the quotation marks,
Glenn "Abe" Martin, the short form with the birth year,
Abe Martin (coach, born 1906), or the long form with the birth year,
Abe Martin (football coach, born 1906), I would also support any of those forms for the main header. He is not to be confused with his contemporary, Texas football coach
Othol Hershel “Abe” Martin (1908–1979), also nicknamed for the comic strip, whose gravestone,
depicted here, is engraved "MARTIN OTHOL H. "ABE"".
Roman Spinner(talk •
contribs) 04:39, 1 September 2020 (UTC) —Relisting.Sceptre (
talk) 21:03, 12 September 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose as proposed. If, as the proposer said, he is not to be confused with the other Abe Martin who was a coach, then we shouldn't use the
WP:INCDAB name that was proposed. Support double parenthetical disambiguation. —
BarrelProof (
talk) 16:10, 2 September 2020 (UTC)reply
Neutral with regard to original proposal of
Abe Martin (coach), even though it would require adding a hatnote to distinguish this person from
Abe Martin (American football), as either title is appropriate, but oppose any of the other alternatives as unnecessary
WP:OVERPRECISION. -
Station1 (
talk) 08:35, 2 September 2020 (UTC)reply
I'm afraid this is now very confusing. This article was at
Glenn Martin (coach) when the RM was opened, and the proposal was to move to
Abe Martin (coach), during the time all comments before 12 Sept were written. Ideally this article should be moved back to [remain at]
Glenn Martin (coach) as that title is the least ambiguous with
Abe Martin (American football) (a different person). Glenn Martin was known as both "Glenn" and "Abe", often both names being used together, so "Glenn" qualifies per
WP:NATURAL.
Glenn "Abe" Martin is another possibility, as an exception, even though that style is generally discouraged per
WP:NICKNAME. The most important thing, however, is to not use "American football" as a disambiguator, because Glenn Martin is not primarily known for that sport, and because it makes the title more ambiguous with the other Abe Martin who was notable only for football. Glenn coached basketball and baseball as well as football, and if any of those is primary it would be baseball.
Station1 (
talk) 07:24, 13 September 2020 (UTC)reply
I've reverted my own move; it was a momentary lapse that made me forget. Apologies for that. :) Sceptre (
talk) 14:00, 13 September 2020 (UTC)reply
I did not intend and do not see any implication that one person is more entitled to the "Abe" than the other, but agree that if Othol is moved to
Othol Martin or variation per
WP:NATURAL, that would be the least ambiguous way of titling these articles. Both articles would still be listed on the
Abe Martin dab page.
Station1 (
talk) 17:21, 13 September 2020 (UTC)reply
My intention in the previous comment was to highlight the fact that if there is no compromise and this RM closes as "no consensus" or "not moved", then
Othol Martin remains by default as
Abe Martin (American football) and Glenn Martin remains by default as
Glenn Martin (coach), thus leaving Othol, but not Glenn, as the one entitled to the "Abe" name. Ultimately, I would support any of the previously mentioned compromises to equalize the two coaches' names including, as you mentioned, retaining
Glenn Martin (coach) and moving
Abe Martin (American football) to
Othol Martin, thus discarding his qualifier per
WP:NATURAL, but retaining both men as "Abe Martin" on the
Abe Martin dab page. —
Roman Spinner(talk •
contribs) 23:34, 13 September 2020 (UTC)reply
Yes, we should do something to ensure adequate disambiguation of the resulting titles. —
BarrelProof (
talk) 01:41, 16 September 2020 (UTC)reply
I would support any reasonable resolution, including
Abe Martin (American football) →
Othol Martin. It has been two weeks (September 16) since anyone posted a comment here so if you agree to such a move and there are no opposing views, let us hope this RM can be finally closed. —
Roman Spinner(talk •
contribs) 19:13, 30 September 2020 (UTC)reply
The problem is that Glenn Martin was known for multiple sports, perhaps primarily baseball, but certainly not primarily football. By qualifying both with "American football" the titles are more ambiguous, not less. Also, Glenn Martin was in fact widely known as both Glenn and Abe, at least accoriding to the sources we have.
Station1 (
talk) 20:34, 1 October 2020 (UTC)reply
Once again, if we cannot reach consensus and
Othol "Abe" Martin remains as
Abe Martin (American football) and
Glenn "Abe" Martin remains as
Glenn Martin (coach) then we would be, in fact, conceding that Othol is entitled to the "Abe" moniker, while Glenn is not entitled. Both men started as American football players and then became longtime coaches — Othol coached American football players, while Glenn coached American football players, basketball players and baseball players.
Hopefully, we can arrive at a consensus if there is no objection to those forms. To recapitulate, since both men played American football and were longtime coaches, the forms
Abe Martin (American football) and
Abe Martin (coach) would apply to both of them and thus represent incomplete disambiguation. As for conciseness,
Abe Martin (American football), the current incompletely disambiguated main header for
Othol "Abe" Martin, has 30 characters and spaces, while the proposed alternative for him,
Abe Martin (coach, Texas) has only 25 characters and spaces.
Also, regarding whether
Othol Hershel "Abe" Martin was definitively known as "Abe", while
Morris Glenn "Abe" Martin was not as definitively known as "Abe" — both men had "Abe Martin" sports fields named after them, both men are listed as "Abe Martin" in sports databases and both men have "Abe" on their tombstones. It would thus seem that both have an equal claim to posthumous persistence as "Abe" in their respective main title headers. —
Roman Spinner(talk •
contribs) 00:26, 3 October 2020 (UTC)reply
I still prefer
Glenn Martin (coach) and
Othol Martin for reasons mentioned, but I'll be satisfied with whatever some disinterested admin eventually decides.
Station1 (
talk) 05:35, 16 October 2020 (UTC)reply
I continue to prefer the approach using
Abe Martin (coach, Illinois) and
Abe Martin (coach, Texas). It seems like no disinterested suitable closer is paying attention to this RM. It's been opened for nearly two months and it was relisted 6 weeks ago. If there is no objection, I plan to close this myself after it hits the two month mark per
WP:NOTBUREAUCRACY. —
BarrelProof (
talk) 16:44, 26 October 2020 (UTC)reply
Please don't. This definitely needs a fresh and unbiased set of eyes. Some brave person will show up sooner or later.
Station1 (
talk) 19:12, 26 October 2020 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Requested move 8 September 2020
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Glenn Martin (coach) → Abe Martin (coach, born 1906) – This is a continuation of
Talk:Glenn Martin (coach)#Requested move 1 September 2020, directly above. Since that RM was closed and the close reverted within two hours, there is no official close, thus leaving an opening for this RM to accept additional votes. As presented in the September 1 RM, subject was known to the public as "Abe Martin", not as "Glenn Martin" and the
Illinois field named after him was indeed named "Abe Martin Field", not "Glenn Martin Field" [other links for the Illinois "Abe Martin" are in the September 1 RM]. The reason this coach is being referred to as the "Illinois Abe Martin" is to differentiate him from his contemporary, "Texas Abe Martin", a coach who also has a field named after him, but in Texas. Since one of the participants in the September 1 RM cast an "Oppose" vote on the basis of "
Abe Martin (coach)" being an incomplete disambiguation, this repeat RM is adding the Illinois coach's birth year, this enabling
Abe Martin (coach) to become a redirect to the
Abe Martin disambiguation page which lists two coaches named Abe Martin,
Abe Martin (coach, born 1906) and
Abe Martin (coach, born 1908). Since it has been pointed out by at least one participant that since the two coaches were contemporaries, their birth years, which are standard in sports disambiguations, are too close for easy identification. A number of alternatives may be therefore proposed (see September 1 RM), including
Abe Martin (Illinois coach), thus disambiguating him from
Abe Martin (Texas coach). —
Roman Spinner(talk •
contribs) 20:12, 8 September 2020 (UTC)reply
Comment - there may have been some misunderstanding here... I reverted the moves because I had
Abe_Martin_(American_football) on my watchlist, but there was no indication at
Talk:Abe_Martin_(American_football) that any move was being proposed for that page. The last entry on the talk page is the move request of January, which I opposed at the time, and I've only just seen the 1 September RM now. Looking at it again, I don't know really. I guess the problem is that from
Abe_Martin_(American_football), and as people say above, it looks like that other guy really was predominantly a coach as well. Differentiating by their first names is nice, but if Glenn Martin is really known almost exclusively as Abe too then that doesn't help us. So maybe I'm not averse to the move after all. It needs to be fashioned as a multipage RM though. We shouldn't be including pages in a move that don't get notified on their talk pages. Cheers —
Amakuru (
talk) 20:28, 8 September 2020 (UTC)reply
I appreciate your reply and would gladly withdraw this just-opened RM if you agree to let stand Sceptre's closure of the September 1 RM on this page. I certainly understand that you may not agree to Sceptre's other analogous move (
Abe Martin (American football) →
Abe Martin (American football, Texas)), but perhaps you could let that move also remain to at least determine if any Wikipedian objects to the move of the Texan's page. Whatever your decision, I would be happy just to see the move on this page completed. —
Roman Spinner(talk •
contribs) 20:57, 8 September 2020 (UTC)reply
Comment: I'm not averse to any formulation, to be honest; I moved the other page solely to be consistent with
WP:PDAB. Sceptre (
talk) 21:33, 8 September 2020 (UTC)reply
OK fine, let's just do it that way then. I'll withdraw my earlier objections and you can reinstate Sceptre's close and withdraw this one as moot. Hopefully everybody will be fine with that. And apologies for confusing things. Cheers —
Amakuru (
talk) 21:55, 8 September 2020 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Requested move 21 November 2020
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: Consensus to move (
non-admin closure) (
t ·
c) buidhe 18:27, 5 December 2020 (UTC)reply
– Both of these men are best known as "Abe Martin". Both of them had an "Abe Martin Field" (or "Abe Martin Stadium") named after them. Both of them were coaches of American football. One of them had a career focused in Illinois and the other in Texas. In the RM of 1 September 2020 (closed on 11 November 2020), we seemed to have a consensus for some move, but didn't settle on agreed names. Today I notice several new moves by
BD2412, such as the move of James Wilson (Pennsylvania) to
James Wilson (Pennsylvania politician), that inspire me to propose names of a similar form. These names were also suggested as alternatives by
Roman Spinner in the withdrawn RM of 8 September 2020. The current status does not seem at all satisfactory, due to the ambiguity of Abe Martin (American football) and the fact that the opening sentence of the Glenn Martin (coach) article says he was better known as "Abe Martin". Neither of these men had "Abe Martin" on their birth certificates, but both (according to the articles) are better known by that name. Also note the previous RM discussions at Talk:Abe Martin (American football) as well as those at Talk:Glenn Martin (coach). —
BarrelProof (
talk) 16:40, 21 November 2020 (UTC)reply
Inserted "(or 'Abe Martin Stadium')" above. —
BarrelProof (
talk) 23:36, 22 November 2020 (UTC)reply
Support. Seems OK to me. Cheers —
Amakuru (
talk) 17:03, 21 November 2020 (UTC)reply
Support 2nd as ambiguous disambiguator, 72 v 17[
[1]] isn't likely sufficient for a PDAB. No comment on 1st. Blimey what a lot of move requests this article has been though, lets try to settle it here. Crouch, Swale (
talk) 17:46, 21 November 2020 (UTC)reply
Support per nomination which seems to represent the most apt and succinct forms. My thanks to BarrelProof for submitting these nominations with the hope that consensus may be finally achieved regarding the names by which both men were best known. —
Roman Spinner(talk •
contribs) 18:51, 21 November 2020 (UTC)reply
Comment. Even if there were evidence that they were "best known" as Abe Martin,
WP:NATURAL suggests using other common names where available, over artificial qualifiers. There's no question that the scant available sources refer to them as
Glenn "Abe" Martin and
Othol "Abe" Martin or
Othol Hershel "Abe" Martin.
[2][3][4][5] The proposal makes the titles more ambiguous, not less so, for anyone who doesn't already know what state they're from. The better choices are either
Glenn Martin (coach) and
Othol Martin, or
Glenn "Abe" Martin and
Othol "Abe" Martin, which are already redirects, and let the
Abe Martin dab page direct people who are searching for "Abe".
Station1 (
talk) 18:55, 21 November 2020 (UTC)reply
My moves of articles with state-only disambiguators are premised solely on the fact that state-only disambiguators are disfavored. On the question at hand, I think that the best outcome would be to
WP:IAR on nicknames and use
Glenn "Abe" Martin and
Othol "Abe" Martin.
BD2412T 02:35, 22 November 2020 (UTC)reply
Support per nom. Although, I have a feeling there is a better or preferred disambiguator to the state they come from.--
Ortizesp (
talk) 07:27, 22 November 2020 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.