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I am starting a new section heading because the last section is too long and ranges over a variety of points. Let's agree that Carver was not a bad person and that his Wikipedia biography should be duly positive. Let's also agree that some of his achievements are not in dispute among any sources. Regardless of whether or not his wisdom was original, he did nationally promote the planting and use of peanuts.
Let's agree that sources are important. I also agree that our own opinions don't matter. Common sense is a different story. You cannot know what has and has not been adequately sourced without common sense. I maintain that an invention like making shampoo out of peanuts is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence. If you don't find strong evidence, you should suppose that it isn't true. It isn't the same kind of claim as that Erno Rubik invented the Rubik's cube. You cannot treat all assertions as equal; some are a priori more plausible than others.
The main point is that the idea of Carver as a wizard inventor is a popularized myth. This is principally a historical question, because Carver's popularization was a historical American event. Indeed, I found several sources that document the main point. The books at least cite scientists. Why aren't these sources good enough?
If you want to view it as purely a science question with no room for historians at all, his main publication were his agricultural bulletins, which lists uses of peanuts such as:
What kind of scientist do you require to explain the nature of this peanut brittle formula? Do I need to reference a Nobel laureate in chemistry, or can I appeal to common sense and conclude that it wasn't a new invention? Can't the Carver bulletin itself be used a source that indicates non-invention?
Okay, I concede that when I read your last statement, you might not entirely disagree with me. Maybe we can agree that you cannot replace all thought with citations; somewhere down the line you also have to analyze the source material. Greg Kuperberg 22:31, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
I didn't mean to mischaracterize you and I am happy to leave your position in your own words. It is easy to get caught up in cross-characterization; we may not disagree as much as it may seem in basic Wikipedia philosophy.
Concerning the specifics of the case at hand: First, I agree that sourcing some kind of food scientist would be ideal. I cannot produce any specific source of that type either pro or con at the moment, although I'm pretty sure that some of the historians do reference them. So that sourcing question simply needs more work; but it also begs the question of what to say if you haven't found this gold standard of citation. In my view, serious historical accounts such as Mackintosh are the best that we have. I think that it is the wrong time to dispute these presently best sources.
Concerning the basic claim, you say very reasonably:
I agree with you that the first version is an extroardinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence. But extraordinary evidence is there in the three sources that I cited. Your second, rhetorical question, is the explanation. His accomplishments were exaggerated to the point of outright falsehood, by all sides: by blacks, by guilty whites, by progressive whites, and even by segregationist whites. As Mackintosh explains, Carver's genial personality appeased every faction. (Everyone other than some of his close colleagues at Tuskegee, that is.) If you add to that a somewhat naive and ill-educated American public of the 1920s and 1930s, then I don't think that it's so impossible to believe.
Also, if you say "hawking bullshit", then you should remember that Carver wasn't devoid of talent. He was a pretty good painter and a very good public speaker, for example. He had enough to be a celebrity. He is not the only celebrity whose career has been grossly misinterpreted by the public and even by public grade schools. Greg Kuperberg 00:18, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
While my concerns above are outstanding, I also don't want to leave the intro wrong if "difficult to ascertain" is an error. Could we, per above, say "widely credited with having developed more than 300 uses for the peanut, although much of his work was the collation and distribution of outstanding material" leaving aside both invent and myth for the timebeing. Marskell 12:46, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Just like you, I also changed my perspective when I slept on it. :-)
For now you can change the article as you please, but the changes that you suggest are only small improvements. I can see that you are taking this issue seriously; you certainly deserve credit for that.
I am increasingly convinced that the article needs a major overhaul. It needs a different tone; it needs meticulous citations; and it needs an instruction near the top that there is so much mythology about Carver that editors should first read what is already in the article before making possibly erroneous changes. Depressingly, it may need indefinite attention from Wikipedia admins to stay truthful, and it may take time to convince them too. The one bright spot is that it shouldn't have to cite 100 different sources. It should be enough to cite McMurry's biography plus some other small change.
One of the things that affected my perspective was a few articles written in the New York Times while Carver was still alive. (They require TimesSelect, but this is not expensive and it is a good product.) For example, here is an article from 1924 that has Carver wowing an audience of Alabama church women with an account of his plant products. He said that God revealed his discoveries to him. He said that he could make an egg yolk from a sweet potato. He said that he had a peanut product that could cure pulmonary diseases, which the Times reporter took as a reference to tuberculosis. He said that Thomas Edison had offered him a fortune to work in Edison's lab, but that he had turned down the offer. He said that a man had sent him a check for $100, but that he sent back the money.
Meanwhile McMurry's book says that Carver went to some lengths to start a for-profit company years before he made this speech. She leaves open the possibility that he would have donated its profits to Tuskegee, but at the very least he would have controlled its revenue. She also said that Carver repeated the story of the Edison job offer many times, but that it was never confirmed.
Then, here is an article from 1933 in which Carver claimed that peanut oil cured polio. According to McMurry, his polio claim was sensational and he was famous enough that he was inundated with pleas for polio patients. He pursued this claim for some time.
Then, here is an article from 1941 in which Carver claimed that he had found a persimmon extract that cured periodontal disease.
What am I supposed to think about an inventor who publishes simple kitchen recipes; claims hundreds of products without revealing formulas; claims sensational products such as "peanut nitroglycerine"; claims that his discoveries come directly from God; claims cures of major diseases; claims that he never pursues money, but has failed business ventures; and claims handsome but unsubstantiated job offers? Greg Kuperberg 16:13, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, I have spoken my mind. I'm not sure when I will have time to do such an overhaul myself. Even if I don't, other Wikipedia regulars are free to read this and take action. Greg Kuperberg 03:40, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
The section that reads "Southern farmers came together in 1920 to plead their cause before a Congressional committee hearings on the tariff. Carver was elected, without hesitation, to speak at the hearings. On arrival, Carver was mocked by surprised southern farmers, but he was not deterred and began to explain some of the many uses for the peanut." confuses me quite a bit. It seems to be saying that he was sent by southern farmers to congress to testify, and then was mocked by the same southern farmers who were surprised that he showed up. Who was surprised here? The farmers, members of congress, someone else? And why were they surprised? Because he was black, was unknown to them, other reasons? Pdarley
I think it should be that he was mocked by surprised Southern congressmen. Greg Kuperberg 03:41, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
"his mother were kidnapped by Confederate night raiders and sold in Arkansas"
according to American Decades. Gale Research, 1998. that he was not sold the Gale Research lists the captors as bandits not Confederate night raiders
"his best filly "
according to the Gale Research the filly was worth 300 dollars
"Carver's father is unknown"
he was killed in a log rolling accident according to the Gale Research
This page has info on George Washington and.... George Washington Carver.
I am only, like, eleven, and I probably shouldn't be editing, but I would like to point out that I (probably not only me) disagree with the statement "Other common MYTHS are that Carver invented Peanut Butter and crop rotation" He DID in fact, invent peanut butter AND crop rotation, but he was (and is still) not given credit by all people because he was African American.
YOU'RE RIGHT, APPARENTLY. ELEVEN YEAR OLDS SHOULDN'T BE EDITING. CARVER DID NOT INVENT PEANUT BUTTER!
TO THE PERSON WHO SAID ELEVEN YEAR OLDS SHOULD NOT BE EDITING: #1 the possibility that GWC invented peanut butter is not a closed debate. Lots of sources say he started working with it in the 1880s which predates the later inventors ( http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blpeanutbutter.htm). #2, you shouldn't be yelling at an eleven year old (by using all caps). Remember, this is wikipedia, he or she has just as much a right to be editing as you. You should be ashamed as yourself.
Wikipedia members should help delete all the information about george washington.
George Washington Carver (Inventor) George Washington Carver is one of the most well known African American historical figures as well as one of the most important figures in American Agriculture. Most school children know him as the inventor of hundreds of uses for the peanut and the person who popularized peanuts as an agricultural crop. Although primarily famous as the driving force behind the peanut's growth in importance in agriculture, Carver is also notable for many other reasons. Carver was the first African American to attend Iowa State University as well as its first African American faculty member. His research included many other plants other than the peanut, and his work as an educator and innovator within the agricultural community led to the spread of "movable schools" or extension agencies to the South. Carver died in 1943, and has since been honored with commemorative postage stamps, a fifty-cent coin, and inclusion in the Hall of Fame for Great Americans and the National Inventors Hall of Fame. One fact about Carver's life which is rarely if ever mentioned is his sexuality, which may not be relevant to most of his achievements but is integral to the understanding the inventor as a whole. Sources: http://www.noglstp.org/historical.html http://blackstripe.com/blacklist/ http://www.george-washington-carver.com/george-washington-carver/ http://home.earthlink.net/~blkembrace/speech.htm
source: http://www.glaad.org/publications/resource_doc_detail.php?id=3093 ***
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Why do [4], [5] and [6] state that he was born on July 12, 1864, if no-one knows his birthdate? 1ne 23:13, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Seems like yet another Carver myth. The first trivia item indicates that Carver recognition day is January 5, the day he died, because his birthdate is unknown. Plantguy 00:42, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
University websites do sometimes contain errors. Do they provide an authoritative source? Plantguy 03:04, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps July 12 is simply the day Carver decided to celebrate his birthday. Plantguy 17:03, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
A wikipedia editor has been placing this link on articles all over the place, including this one. While it is on topic, the website has no content whatsoever, other than a list of links to wikipedia articles about black scientists. I suggest these links need to be removed from all the wikipedia articles, unless this website is expected to suddenly explode with high value content sometime in the next few days. -- Xyzzyplugh 16:07, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
The wording in the introduction of this article is very misleading, i.e. "his exact output is hard to ascertain." There is no doubt that Carver's 300-plus peanut products are mainly a myth. Check the article's authoritative references by Barry MacIntosh, Linda McMurry and Andrew F. Smith and Carver's 1916 peanut bulletin with its 105 peanut recipes from other sources. Carver mainly just reprinted published recipes that used peanuts and suggested peanuts as a exotic substitute in existing products such as shoe polish or massage oil. None of his peanut inventions was ever a commercial success contrary to the many claims that he revolutionized southern agriculture. It is also false (in the Rise to Fame section) that "His less well known, but also outstanding contributions to agriculture, such as crop rotation systems for soil enrichment, revolutionized southern farming ..." Carver did not invent crop rotation. It was in use since ancient times [7]. This was discussed before on this Talk page.
The introduction of this article was accurate back in Sept. 2006, when the introduction read as follows:
"George Washington Carver (c. early 1864 – January 5, 1943) was an African American botanist inventor who worked in agricultural extension at the Tuskegee Institute in Tuskegee, Alabama, and who taught former slaves farming techniques for self-sufficiency. He is also widely credited in American public schools and elsewhere for inventing hundreds of uses for the peanut and other plants, although this laudation amounts to an urban legend. (See Reputed inventions.)"
It is very sad that so many seemingly prestigious organizations undermine their reputation by perpetuating myths about Carver. For example, the U.S. Library of Congress claims that the peanut was not even recognized as a U.S. crop in 1896 [8] and goes on to give Carver virtually sole credit for making peanuts the number 6 U.S. crop by 1940. Yet, an entire book on U.S. peanut crop production was published in 1885 - Jones, B. W. 1885. The peanut plant: Its cultivation and uses. New York: Orange. [9]. The Library of Congress even owns a copy of this book! Several USDA researchers wrote peanut bulletins before Carver's first peanut bulletin in 1916 (this article, footnotes 12-17).
Other inaccurate webpages on Carver are those by Iowa State University (his alma mater) [10], National Inventors Hall of Fame [11] and about.com [12]. The latter makes the ridiculous claim that Carver invented peanut butter in 1880, when he would have been about 16 years old!
Plantguy 00:35, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Further Corrections and Accomplishments
This Wiki bio on Carver has expanded greatly due to further contributions and I hope further research will be done to present a more accurate and balanced picture of this scientist. There are several obvious factual mistakes which have been picked up from other sources and repeated here and several grave omissions regarding his work for the US govenrment, especially during WW II. For example, the claim that he left no records is not true: you can see some at the Carver Museum in Tuskegee, Alabama. His desk, journals, inventions and even some of his work is on display, some preserved in formaldehyde jars. More is not on display. Also, no mention made of the more than a dozen medicines, dyes and dozens of food products he created and developed: refer to: http://www.tuskegee.edu/Global/story.asp?S=1107203
Regarding the circumstances of his death, which obviously someone picked up from some other written source: Dr. Carver lived in a ONE story Victorian house on the main street of the campus next to a house built for Booker T. Washington. It was a ONE story house, (still standing) barely had 2 or 3 steps up to the front porch. There were no steps for him to fall down "at home". The entire campus is a National Historic Landmark which includes this house, his museum, his laboratory building, and his Foundation's buildings. Dr. Carver's image is on a 1951 U.S. silver 50 cent piece with Booker T. Washington.
Regarding his brushes with Booker T. Washington: everybody had a hard time with Booker T. Washington because of the hard decisions he (Dr. Washington) had to make to build up the school. It was when Dr. Washington was succeeded by Dr. Robert Russell Moton, who became President of Tuskegee Institute in 1915, that a warm, family feeling was generated amongst the faculty and staff, the endowment was multiplied and more staff facilities and new buildings became available, and the the VA hospital was added to the community to stabilize the economy. Dr. Carver benefitted from Dr. Moton's leadership as did all other faculty, staff, students and residents of the community. Also, many harsh comments are made regarding Dr. Carver's interaction with farmers and industry but absolutely no reference is made to the environment of the day., ie., Jim Crow laws in the South, segregation, racial discrimination, etc.
No credit given for his development of the "Jessup Wagon", a traveling educational agricultural extension office. He even created five different kinds of paper and yet you say there are no records of his accomplishments! Even what little credit is given to Dr. Carver in this ongoing bio project is a miracle considering the conditions under which he had to work. No mention is made of his oil paintings, which would require an art historian to evaluate. Again, I encourage more accurate research and contributions on this biography and there are a few more published books written about Dr. Carver, not considered here, which would give a more balanced picture of his work and actual accomplishments http://www.tuskegee.edu/Global/story.asp?S=1107203 . I look forward to seeing further discussions on this article. Thank you. 68.215.192.205 01:00, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I just revised the page before seeing the above comments, and I did mention that given racial segregation in 1921, Carver was a novel choice for the peanut growers to have speak for them in a Congressional committee.
Another section is probably needed in the article, perhaps titled "Artist and Humanitarian" as that is where many of Carver's main contributions were made. Most biographies emphasize the largely mythical peanut inventions.
The article does not say Carver left no records, just that he did not write down formulas for most of his original plant products, which is true. Where is an authoritative source that describes how Carver's created five kinds of paper that you mention?
The article does mention his extension work. The Jessup wagon can be added into that section.
I did not write the section on Carver falling down steps to his death. If you have an authoritative source for the circumstances of his death, feel free to revise it.
Plantguy 22:44, 7 February 2007 (UTC)