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It is important to state the current state of events, not what will happen soon. As such, the Senator is still in office, and has not been succeeded yet. Stealthound 20:48, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Please consult this source, ( Wikipedia is not a Crystal Ball) before changing the "Succeeded by" sections of the article. This is the official position of wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball, predicting what will happen in the future. As the Senator is still in office, the article should be left as it is. Thank you, Stealthound 09:10, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Before anyone adds categories like "racism" to the article again, please be sure to read WP:BLP thoroughly as well as the brief information at the head of this talk page. I have no problem with well-source allegations being put into the article, but throwing someone into a category feels a lot different to me; there's no sourcing, and no explanation of what it measns to be put into the category. I'd very likely remove such an addition as a violation of WP:BLP (an official policy of the encyclopedia) and would encourage others to remove this as well.
Atlant 16:40, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Not a big deal at all, but I think the footnote about Allen's successor should be a wiki ref. I had converted it, but Stealthound reverted, saying that keeping the footnote in the infobox had kept changes to a minimum. To be clear, I don't want to remove the footnote, I just want to wikify it, so when you click on the 1, it'll take you to the note. Personally, I think having the wiki-linked footnote is more accessible, because you don't have to hunt around for where the actual note is (I don't find it at all intuitive for the note to be at the bottom of the box; I would expect it to be at the bottom of the page). I also think it looks better, keeps the style standard, and is just as clear, if not more so. The use of subscript for the reference is confusing to me. Schi 18:25, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Trimmed us down to current discussions. Old discussions are in the third archive.-- Rosicrucian 23:49, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I removed the Jewish categories per WP:BLP#Use of categories, which states:
Category tags regarding religious beliefs and sexual preference should not be used unless two criteria are met:
- The subject publicly self-identifies with the belief or preference in question
- The subject's beliefs or sexual preferences are relevant to the subject's notable activities or public life
Crockspot 20:12, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Don't make me come over there, you two. Anyone else vaguely remember a discussion of the categories on this page? I have no idea what the consensus was, however. In any event, I'm ok with their removal. · j e r s y k o talk · 21:50, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
I've reinserted "Category:Sephardi Jews" because it has as much relevance as the other category pertaining to his heritage ("Category:Scots-Irish Americans") -- however, I've left out "Category:Jewish American politicians" as a compromise even though that should be there too, even though he is not a RELIGIOUS Jew but an ETHNIC one. User:Crockspot seems to be confusing ethnic/racial heritage and RELIGION; also, User:Crockspot, there is absolutely no truth in your statement that "insertion of the category is intended to make the subject 'look bad,' " as we only seek to categorize his ethnic (remember, NOT religious) heritage. I don't think User:Crockspot understands that even if a Jew or his family abandons the Judaism (the religion of the Jewish people), that person is still a Jew ETHNICALLY, but not RELIGIOUSLY. Regarding the criteria above, "Category:Sephardi Jews" fits in because Allen 'publicly self-identifies with the belief or preference in question' when he said: "I embrace and take great pride in every aspect of my diverse heritage, including my Lumbroso family line's Jewish heritage, which I learned about from a recent magazine article and my mother confirmed" [1]. Regarding the second criteria ('subject's beliefs or sexual preferences are relevant to the subject's notable activities or public life'), there was the whole controversy regarding his heritage when it was brought to light during his campaign because of some allegly 'racist' remarks he made, as he used a slur common in North Africa where his mother's Sephardic Jewish family hailed from. Again, "Category:Sephardi Jews" is no different than other ethnic classifications such as "German-Americans" or "Scots-Irish Americans" -- it's only because being 'being Jewish' is BOTH an ethnic and religious classification that people are still so confused about it. In Allen's case, however, this only pertains to his ethnicity, as multiple categories already exist for his Christian religious beliefs. -- 172.144.250.61 10:36, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Mytwocents: the people here at Wikipedia are not "calling out Senator Allen as a Jew," as this is already public knowledge and has been for months now. It is now widely known and commented upon; indeed, it was a bit of a minor controversy when it was first brought to light as I'm sure you know, thus it is important and definitely deserves to stay in this article. Plus, it's stated clearly early on in the article that he has Jewish heritage on his mother's side, officially making him an ethnic (but not religious) Jew -- so why is the category such an issue here? The "Category:Scots-Irish American" pertains to his ethnic status on his father's side, "Category:American Presbyterians" pertains to his RELIGION, and "Category:Sephardi Jew" pertains to his ethnic status on his mother's side. If anything, Allen's biography is a wonderful example of the ethnic and religious diversity found amongst so many Americans...yet some of you here seem to want to 'hide' the Jewish side of his ethnic/racial heritage, as you all are obviously trying to whitewash it (for whatever reason...?).
John Broughton: Wikipedia isn't "tracing bloodlines," just reporting said bloodlines that have already been traced and reliably verified by others. As Jasper23 says, why should categories pertaining to a person's ethnic/racial and /or religious status be allowed to stay in almost all other articles and be stripped from this particular one, especially when Allen's ethnic heritage on his mother's side was, as said, a bit of a controversy when it was brought to light. I still think that "Category:Jewish American politicians" should be on this page because he IS technically a Jew, especially since "Category:Presbyterian politicians" is already a category here. -- 172.149.22.40 21:37, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Since Category:Sephardi Jews will probably soon be renamed to Category:People of Sephardic ancestry, I am inclined to leave that cat in place, but I am removing Category:Jewish American politicians per WP:BLP, already discussed above. Crockspot 22:36, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
In the interests of POV and fairness, either ALL of the verified categories regarding Allen stay in the article, or NONE of them can stay. However, if we leave all of them out, that will make this article an exception to Wikipedia norms rather than keeping it in line with the categorization procedures of other articles, most of which clearly categorize people according to their ethnic/racial and/or religious identities if this information is available. People can't arbitrarily pick-and-choose which categories stay, because all of them are fully valid and have been verified by reliable external sources. There is no 'labeling' going on here, just categorization and displaying the (widely available) facts. Mytwocents you are correct: I've added categories to other articles dealing with Jewish people as an Anon-user, and will continue to do so. If you think I am being anti-Semitic you are entirely mistaken (I detect some of that here), because I have partial Jewish heritage in my family. -- 172.162.149.222 19:29, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
The definition of Category:Jewish Americans states that it includes "Americans of Jewish heritage, or adherents of Judaism." Because of this category's dual nature, it's not perfectly comparable to either being a Presbyterian or being an Italian-American, though it has aspects of both. As for the prior discussion that jerseyko asked about, the question is touched on in some of the threads in Talk:George Felix Allen/Archive 2, although there's more of a focus on how the article should cover the emergence during the campaign of Allen's mother's ethnic background. JamesMLane t c 09:13, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Is there a compelling argument for keeping them off the page? Lay it out. Jasper23 20:23, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Why? There is no WP:BLP issue. If there is, please tell me what it is. This a sourced and verifiable category. Why not include it? Can anyone give me an answer? Jasper23 21:13, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
These types of categories seem silly to me. The articles should explain the details, and it should be left at that, imo. · j e r s y k o talk · 21:38, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I dewikilinked a couple of red links, ones that are very unlikely to ever have articles (like the maiden name of Allen's first wife). I left others that may some day have articles, like names of former Congressional seatholders. - Crockspot 16:39, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
I would hope that we could rewrite the lead section to also include the fact that he served as Governor. Currently it is buried a few lines down:
"Allen served Virginia in the state legislature, as Governor, and in both bodies of the U.S. Congress"
Furthermore isn't that line incorrect? Is the Governor a part of the state legislature? I believed the Governor was the State's Executive Branch. Mecil 15:28, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
There is no evidence cited in this article to support the apparently partisan contention that many people called Allen Senator Macaca and Macacawitz. The citations offered in support of this claim refer to individual instances, hardly the "many bloggers and comedians, and some commentators" the article refers to. I nominate this sentence for temporary deletion pending better supporting documentation.
Let me know if you have any supporting documentation for this. In the meantime, I'll do a little search for it myself and revisit later today. Thanks.
Adam Holland 15:09, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
A quick googling of "senator macaca" shows multiple blogger references. Maybe the "some commentators" is a bit of a stretch. I propose removing the commentators reference, and linking to multiple blog references of the term in the footnotes.
With respect to "Macacawitz", the source of this term may be GOP staffers. From the New Republic blog:
According to spy at a GOP hill-staffer bash on Friday, there's a new nickname for George Allen circulating in Republican circles: "Senator Macacawitz." When you're an object of ridicule among the Republicans you seek to lead, it's probably better to just turn the reins over to Jim Webb.
--Spencer Ackerman
There was also a Democratic organizer who quit after using the term in a publicly disseminiated email. Neither the anonymous report of the GOP staffers using it, nor the single Democratic use of the term would seem to merit the attention of this article. [7] I propose taking this reference out.
Adam Holland 15:24, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Per WP:EL, only very important links should be the EL section. I removed the following, which might be useful for improving the article (if not already used, and if info isn't already in article - I didn't look); I'm listing them here as possible sources.
-- Bigger bolder banner-bringer ( talk) 22:44, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
This article states that "Macaca is not a racial slur." It links the word to the Wikipedia article on Macaca [8] ... the actual link states that it is a slur, and the first text in the article states:
This article is about the racial slur. For the monkey, see Macaque.
Macaca[1] is a pejorative epithet used by francophone colonialists in Central Africa's Belgian Congo for the native population
I submit that the Macaca article is authoritative on the subject matter, so this article should not attempt to change the meaning of the term. I will edit the text of this article accordingly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.69.231.85 ( talk) 02:09, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
I re-added the reference to "race slur senator in the international press" to the article. First off, the reference is a news story not a opinion column. Second, the article is clearly relevant to the campaign, living in the area, when he announced his candidacy they threw that article on the screen which is how I learned about it. So although the program isn't online, it was already being referenced on TV (which I know is cheezy to have to use that), which would seem to indicate its interest to the 2012 campaign. I will not engage in an edit war on this and seek agreement moving forward. Wiki Man One 18:39, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
did you ever notice that Wikipedian's love to add "allegations" and "controversey" sections to politicians they hate? This is how the corrupt Wiki hides his "NPOV". If you want to write an article that is overtly biased and call it "neutral"...all you do is stuff it with controversey. Of course, every politician has dirt on them...dirt that is real, dirt that is fabricated. The leftist bigoted Wikipedian knows that all he needs to do in order to slam a politician is focus heavily on controversey.
Here's the bigoted hypocrite biased typical wikipedian model for trashing political candidates. If you ever wondered how a wikipedian manages to write a biased article and pose it off as "NPOV" (neutral point of view)...here you go. (All wiki's know what I'm talking about...you won't admit it, but that is because you are dishonest). here is the template:
Section 1: Introduce candidate. Include at least one controversey
Section 2: Brief History
Section 3: Controversey
Section 4: Allegation
Section 5: Controversey
Section 6: Allegation
Cite references Bingo! A fully slanted, and heavily biased article disguised as "NPOV". Simply because references are cited, that makes it neutral. Yes of course! References like Al Franken or NOW, etc. Wikipedia is a corrupt, dishonest and repugnant repository for people who impose viewpoints in deceptive fashion. All this controversey on Allen's page, yet none on Webb's page. Hypocrites.
Wikipedia: Neutral my ass''''"
Wtf is that? can somebody delete this section from the main page?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.174.174.167 ( talk • contribs) 07:34, 10 March 2007
Obviously this article is biased. I would hope that an organization such as Wikipedia would would authenticate an information before posting. Then again this is the main concern with freedom of the press. An article can be written and imply whatever without being validated.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.94.45.237 ( talk • contribs).
The article is fine as it stands. It states the relevant facts and the controversies with adequate citations. NPOV does not mean that an article should whitewash all negative events and the controversies. To do so would be a disservice to those who come here for information. To the originator of this comment, if you believe this article needs to be fixed, fix it, and back up your fixes with the proper arguments and citations. Do NOT just rant on the discussion page. It's counterproductive, and smacks of being a sore loser. lk 08:24, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Is it really necessary to include stock prices of corporations whose board he sat on? Since they are only cited when they lose value, it clear that the intent is to imply he is a poor businessman, something that is definitely not NPOV nor consistent with a biography of a living person. The Senator is also known for being a politician, not a businessman, and such technical details are not needed. Emozilla ( talk) 22:46, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Also, just as a side note, this article reeks of biased POV. One sentence sections such as "worked for a company that does some government work" is pointless, especially in light that 75% of the article are sections suggesting impropriety. This article, in my opinion, needs a full re-write. Emozilla ( talk) 22:50, 10 April 2008 (UTC)