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The Jagiellons were a branch of the Gediminaiciai (Giedyminowicze), a dynasty which had ruled in Lithuania long before they came to Poland. I wonder if we should move this article to Gediminaiciai or create a separate one. I'm for the former solution, buy I want to hear other people's opinion. -- Kpalion 16:12, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Alas, I don't understand Lithuanian. For the start I'll put here a table of Lithuanian and Polish names of the Lithuanian Gediminaičiai:
Lithuanian | Polish |
Gediminas | Giedymin |
Jaunutis | Jewnuta |
Algirdas | Olgierd |
Jogaila | Władysław Jagiełło |
Kęstutis | Kiejstut |
Vytautas | Witold (Witołd) |
Švitrigaila | Świdrygiełło |
Žygimantas Kęstutaitis | Zygmunt Kiejstutowicz |
Kazimieras Jogailaitis | Kazimierz Jagiellończyk |
Aleksandras | Aleksander |
Žygimantas Senasis | Zygmunt Stary |
Žygimantas Augustas | Zygmunt August |
-- Kpalion 16:45, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I have a question to any Lithuanian speaker: is the Lithuanian name for the Jagiellonian dynasty Jogailaičiai, and is the other branch of the Gediminaičiai called Kęstutaičiai? -- Kpalion 19:38, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
How about moving this article to Gedimin dynasty ? Lysy 20:31, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
What makes you so certain that their true ethnicity was Lithuanian? All genealogy, as well as information about where they primarily resided, indicates that they were, and regarded Belorusian, as their primary language. They even allowed Lithuanian-speaking Samogitia to be taken by T.Knights. 62.78.124.222 03:50, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
Agreed. I moved the article to the English name then. -- Lysy ( talk) 15:27, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
I remember seeing Bielski among the descendants of Algirdas. Is it the same branch? ++ just found this (Bielski) (linked from this). Marcin Bielski ? mikka (t) 23:16, 8 November 2005 (UTC) mikka (t) 23:16, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
cached from [www.bg.us.edu.pl/mariusz/genealogia/rody/bielscy01.html incative page] (discrepancies w.r.t. "Bielski" ext. link above):
ks. Włodzimierz Olgierdowicz (†po X.1398); ks. kijowski 1362?-1395, kopylski 1395 i słucki
* A1. ks. Aleksander (Olelko) (†1454); ks. kopylski i słucki, ks. kijowski 1441; × [22.VIII.1417] Anastazja (†1470); po nim KS. OLELKOWICZE SŁUCCY * A2. ks. Iwan; 1422-1446; namiestnik Wielkiego Nowogrodu 1445-1446, ks. na Białej; × [ok. II.1422] Wasylissa ks. Holszańska (†p. 1484); (2°-v. ks. Michał Siemionowicz) o B1. ks. Iwan (Janusz); × Anna ks. Worotyńska o B2. ks. Siemion (†p. 1522); ks. na Białej, woj. moskiewski; × Irena [ojciec: ks. Iwan Juriewicz Patrikiewicz]; po nim POTOMSTWO o B3. ks. Fiodor (†po 1506); woj. moskiewski 1499; ×1 [1481] Anna, ks. kobryńska (†II/III.1519); (2°-v. Wacław Kostewicz); ×2 [I.1498] N + C1. ks. Dymitr (z drugiego; *1499 †11.I.1550); × Marta Iwanówna Czeladnina [ojciec: Iwan Andrejewicz Swibłow] # D1. ks. Iwan (†Moskwa 24.V.1571); × [8.XI.1555] Marta Wasylówna ks. Szujska (*1538 †2.X.1571) [ojciec: Wasyl Wasylowicz ks. Szujski] * E1. ks. Wasyl (†młodo) * E2. ks. Iwan (†młodo) * E3. ks. Fiodor (†młodo) * E4. ks. Anastazja (†młodo) * E5. ks. Anna # D2. ks. Eudoksja (†1573); × Michał Jakowlewicz Morozow (†1573) # D3. ks. Anastazja (†24.V.1571); × Wasyl Michajłowicz Zacharin Juriew (†3.IV.1567) + C2. ks. Iwan (z drugiego; †1541); × ks. N Michajłówna Szczeniatiewa [ojciec: ks. Michał Daniłowicz Szczeniatiew] # D1. ks. Iwan; × Anna Piotrowna Zacharina [ojciec: Piotr Jakowlewicz Zacharin] * E1. ks. Jerzy (†24.IX.1612); mnich pod imieniem Galakteona + C3. ks. Siemion (z drugiego; †po 1542) o B4. ks. Anna (†po 12.II.1490); × [28.I.1448] Bolesław II, ks. cieszyński (†8.X.1452) o B5. ks. N (córka); × Iwan ks. Ostrogski (†po 1465) o B6. ks. Jawnuta (Agnieszka) (†zapewne p. 1496); × Iwan Chodkiewicz, woj. kijowski (*ok. 1420 †ok. 1484) o B7. [?] ks. N (córka); × Dymitr ks. Odyncewicz * A3. ks. Andrzej (†ok. 1457); ks. na Ainie, Słoweńsku, Mohilnie, Kamieńcu, Łohojsku i Połonnym; × Maria * A4. ks. N (Anastazja?) (†1396); × [koniec 1384] Wasyl III, ks. kaszyńsko-krośniatyński (†po 1426)
Lithuanian | Polish |
Gediminas, Grand Prince of Lithuania | Giedymin |
Jaunutis, Grand Prince of Lithuania | Jewnuta |
Algirdas, Grand Prince of Lithuania | Olgierd |
Jogaila, Grand Prince of Lithuania | Władysław Jagiełło |
Kęstutis, Grand Prince of Lithuania | Kiejstut |
Vytautas, Grand Prince of Lithuania | Witold (Witołd) |
Švitrigaila, Grand Prince of Lithuania | Świdrygiełło |
Žygimantas Kęstutaitis, Grand Prince of Lithuania | Zygmunt Kiejstutowicz |
Kazimieras Jogailaitis, Grand Prince of Lithuania | Kazimierz Jagiellończyk |
Aleksandras, Grand Prince of Lithuania | Aleksander |
Žygimantas Senasis, Grand Prince of Lithuania | Zygmunt Stary |
Žygimantas Augustas, Grand Prince of Lithuania | Zygmunt August |
To quote from the current article: "They were rulers of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, which realm chiefly meant that of Lithuanians and Ruthenians, being at least half-Slavic."
This sentence is confusing at best. Does it mean to say that the realm of the grand Duchy of Lithuania was at least half-Slavic, or is it implied that Gediminaičiai were at least half Slavic? If the latter is the case, then I see it as an error - ruling a certain realm does not automatically imply that the ruler is of the same ethnicity as the realm (just consider the Bourbon dynasty while they were ruling Spain; they did not become Spanish just because of that). Of course, it might be that Gediminaičiai had Slavic blood, but this is not implied by them ruling a Lithuanian/Slavic country. In addition, some external links could be added that support the claims on the ethnicity and geneology of Gediminas. The problem with that is, of course, the fact that most of these links would probably be based on Polish sources, which tend to deflate any facts about Lithuania... Laiqua 21:09, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
The thing is that the so-called "Lithuanian language" didn´t exist till the end of XIX century and that the rulers of the Great Ducky of Lithuania, Rus and Samogitia were not speaking "Lithuanian". Actually the language used in justice, trade and science was Ruthenian (a slavic language similar to nowadays Belarusian) not "Lithuanian" (since such a language is a product of a group of Polish intellectuals who created the "Lithuanian nation", I am using here Gellner theories on nations and nationalism). So non of the rulers of "Lithuania" were "Lithuanians" as we known nowadays.
The Rurikid Dynasty DNA Project seeks to study the male-line Y-chromosomal DNA of modern princely descendants of both Rurik and Gediminas, in order to establish the ethnic origins of both men, as well as determining the extent to which they may have been related to each other. In addition to modern princely descendants, the project also accepts participation from any men who think they may possibly be descended from either Rurik or Gediminas. The ideal situation would be for the actual bones of these dynasty-founders to be discovered, and to extract their Y-DNA for study. Unfortunately with Gediminas, his body was burned after his death, thereby destroying his DNA. Thus, the Rurikid Dynasty DNA Project is doing what it can, which is to try to establish a predominance of one Y-DNA haplotype over other haplotypes within the surviving princely lines as an indication of Gediminas' probable origins. Here is the state of the project, as of March 15, 2010, in the words of the project administrator, Dr. Andrzej Bajor:
"My private database is here http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~mozhayski/teksty/ydna.html .
See also: Rurikid Dynasty DNA Project [1]
"The database also includes Gediminid princes.
"Bogdan Korybut-Woroniecki was found to be descended from a Swedish or Norwegian Viking (genetic haplo I1a). However, experts of the Polish Association of Nobility don't believe that he is a genuine Gediminid prince. In my opinion he is descended from one of the native Lithuanian princes.
"Prince Tonu Trubetsky (he is a famous musician nicknamed Tony Blackplait) is descended from the Gediminid Trubetskoi princes. His family tree since Gedimin is well documented. He was found to be descended from the native Lithuanian population. And this seemed reasonable, since from Stryjkowski's chronicle (end of 16th century) it follows that the early Gediminid princes spoke Lithuanian as their native tongue. Alas, Tonu Trubetsky's branch was broken by someone in the past. Most probably an adoption unknown to historians occurred in this branch of the Trubetsky princes [Tonu Trubetsky is of the R1a1 haplotype]. Besides, this is what the Trubetsky princes wrote in Obshchiy Gerbovnik Rassiyskoi Imperii (Armorial of the Russian Empire, vol. 2, St. Petersburg 1798). That Gedimin was descended from St. Vladimir the Great of Kiev on the Polotsk branch seems to be uncertain from the point of view of true genetics. In spite of the lack of close blood relations between the Rurikids and the Gediminids, one may, however, think of "political" family relations, i.e., that both princely lines were related in another way to each other: namely, in the Suzdal Chronicle (Suzdalskaya Letopis') one can find a text dealing with the siege of Polotsk by St. Vladimir the Great of Kiev. From this it comes out, that ROGNEDA, the future wife of St. Vladimir, as well as mother of his sons, HAD HER OWN SON from her 1st MARRIAGE. It's then quite probable that IZIASLAV VLADIMIROVICH of POLOTSK was, in fact, AN ADOPTED SON of St. Vladimir.
"Prince Askold Georgievich Khovanskii, whose ancestors were genuine Gediminid princes in Russia, is... of Finno-Ugrian descent (N1c1). He matches well with Alex Chartorisky (Czartoryski) of Australia, whose family comes from Russia. They both match well with another Prince Trubecki (Trubetzkoi) of Canada, who, for the time being, doesn't wish to show his Y-DNA test result to the public. Their tests were later confirmed by the tests made by another Trubetzkoy of Russia and Galitzine (Golitsin) of Russia. Their genetic haplos depart from those of the Rurikids. By no means were the Gediminid princes descended from St. Vladimir of Kiev. Currently, it seems that the Gediminids and Rurikids shared a common male ancestor in the time of Jesus Christ, or slightly later [most modern Gediminid and Rurikid princes tested so far are of the Finno-Ugrian N1C1 Y-chromosomal haplotype].
"Nevertheless, the project is seeking other princes of Gediminid descent, such as Trubecki (Trubetskoi), Golicyn (Galitzine), Chowanski (Khovansky) and Kurakin (Kurakine). Others, such as Czartoryski, Sanguszko and Koriatowicz-Kurcewicz, are rarely met in the world anymore." Metsamies ( talk) 15:16, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
This edit surely reveals that some people try their worst to keep genetical information away from articles, as they affect their national prides. Henq ( talk) 22:54, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
Gediminids in Novgorod outposts: Miihkali Antreinpoika Golitsin 82.181.234.211 ( talk) 19:54, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
Dmitrijus Algirdaitis Vladimiras Algirdaitis
OMG... — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
213.87.149.214 (
talk) 23:36, 23 September 2016 (UTC)