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Although i can of course see a difference in the links provided, do they really justify two seperate lists? Is there any reason for not having single section? Even if not, perhaps some thought needs to be given to the two sections' position within the article including relative to each other. Perhaps a single list See also with two columns is in order.
Now that I think about, even better - although it takes a bit more work - would be a "topic-table" such as that exists, for example, in Malaysia [1] and Indonesia [2]. Actually, on second thoughts, it wouldn't be that hard to create from a "borrowed" template. Oh, well - I'll add it to my list - but in the meanttime, if there is anyone else out there.... -- Merbabu 23:45, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Greetings, Having read the beginning of this page and the discussion around the language I found this paragraph from the East Timor Government page interesting:
"(...)Many foreign observers, especially from Australia and Southeast Asia have also been dismissive about the reinstatement of Portuguese, but this is not surprising. Until the demise of the Suharto regime, many were equally dismissive about the very idea of an independent East Timor, arguing that the East Timorese were culturally no different from Indonesians. Even many people who were supportive of East Timor take this view, again mistakenly drawing parallels with Dutch in Indonesia." (from http://www.timor-leste.gov.tl/AboutTimorleste/rellang.htm "East Timor Religion & Language")
Not a definitive statement on anything of course, but it does echo the fact that this is not a simple statistical discussion. -- 89.26.146.157 04:22, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Here it's written that Timor est belongs to Asia, but here is written that it belongs to Oceania. Isn't the case to coordinate the two articles? mac9
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.223.229.203 ( talk) 13:31, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
This article says, "East Timor has the lowest per capita GDP (Purchasing Power Parity adjusted) in the world, of only $400 (which corresponds to the 192nd position)." However, if you click the link provided, East Timor is listed as 148 out of 181 (the list doesn't even go to 192!), with Malawi last. Clearly, one of the articles is wrong. Jcb9 14:39, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
In my ongoing efforts to try to include every country on the planet included in the scope of a WikiProject, I have proposed a new project on Southeastern Asia at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Southeastern Asia whose scope would include East Timor. Any interested parties are more than welcome to add their names there, so we can see if there is enough interest to start such a project. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 16:45, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
I added a sentence regarding its status as former province of Indonesia. As an Indonesian, I was taught in primary school that Timor Timur is the 27th province of Indonesia, and Joined RI (republik Indonesia) in 1970s, without knowning what is actually going on. I also swapped the "Malay and Indonesian" in the section where the name of Timor derived from, as Indonesian is recognised as working language, while malay has no status. I can't change the first one where it said "Malay" Timor, East and "Portuguese" Leste, East. FYI, I as an Indonesian, never use the word "Timor" as "East" and neither my friends -- w_tanoto 22:00, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
What do you mean it means Timor means east, the same as leste in portuguese Australian Jezza 09:32, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
In Indonesian, 'timur' is used to mean 'east'. 'Timor' is used to mean the island. Furthermore, TImor Barat is ' West Timor' and Timor Timur is 'East Timor'. Simple. As for the obvious similarity between the two words, or indeed the history of the two words, I don't know. I'm just commenting on contemporary usage in Indonesian. As for the link provided to the 'timur' in the Indonesian wikipedia, it merely describes (in Indonesian and very basically) the concept of 'east' as a compass direction. Merbabu 00:15, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
This would be a good section, if current (2006 or later) data could be found (no luck with a quick search of www.timor-leste.gov.tl). The CIA fact book mentions only 2004 revenues and expenditures.
The Dili-based PETROLEUM FUND OF TIMOR-LESTE, for example, has significant income; it is about a billion dollars now, but the money is not being spent - there have been no outflows for years! (Source: quarterly reports: http://www.transparency.gov.tl/PR/PFQR.htm) There are apparent major discrepancies - the GDP per capita was reportedly $800 in 2005, half that in 2004, while the fund has about $1000 per capita in assets, while Economy_of_East_Timor#Future_efforts says oil revenues are just $40 MM/year, but $20.2 bn (est. 1992-2002) in economic aid had come in - some $20,000 per capita!?!
-- Elvey 02:55, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Since 18th January 2007, there is a new CoA of Timor-Leste! It was first published in "JORNAL da REPUBLICA", 18th January 2007, Serie I, No.1, page 1664. You can see it at the vote ballots of presidental election 2007. An (not very good) image can be found at Commons. -- J. Patrick Fischer 08:17, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Source in Portuguese -- J. Patrick Fischer 06:34, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Funny how the mesticos who are primarily of portuguese blood and also have the largest influence and power in East Timor where only 5% of the people speak Portuguese fluently, declared portuguese as the official language. If anything the official language should be Tetum or Indonesian until Tetum has properly been incorporated back into the mainstream. Why replace a foreign nations language with another foreign nations language??
all the links showed up in red twice in a row instead of blue.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.55.199.122 ( talk) 16:01, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Population count results 2004 for districts, subdistricts and sucos of East Timor: This [4] was only a provisional result, the final results can be found here: [5]. I still edited the German table of subdistricts ( de:Liste der Subdistrikte Osttimors), but I hope someone here has time to edit the ET-articles in this language, cause I have to change all German articles. Greetings, -- de:user:J. Patrick Fischer -- 217.249.196.41 07:38, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Can someone who speaks Tetum render "Be Prepared", the Scout Motto, into Tetum, for that article? Thanks! Chris 14:24, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
I removed
as it seems misleading. The second story using East Timor is undated. However since it is talking about the end of Operation Citadel, which happened on 14th May 2005 and a new UN mandate, we can presume it was from 2005. I don't think it suprises anyone that they once referred to Timor-Leste as East Timor at one stage. Surely what matters is what they currently refer to Timor-Leste as. If they continue to refer to Timor-Leste as East Timor then it would be fine to mention that but we need some evidence for that. This link [8] suggests that they've in fact adopted Timor-Leste Nil Einne 07:19, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
To anybody who still have the doubt in mind, please see what Wikipedia has to say about East Timor. It´s a state in OCEANIA:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcontinental_nation#East_Timor
Emerson —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.41.197.75 ( talk) 23:32, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
So, if any article in Wikipedia suffers lack of accuracy, the best we can do is to leave this project once and for all...come on...
1 - Wallace line is a division more focused on biology than political or social issues; this doesn´t mean we can not use it to define what is Asia and what is Oceania
2 - Not only Timor but all region nearby is part of Oceania...why people tend to think Oceania begins only east of Australia and New Guinea? Should we also consider the island of New Guinea part Asia and part Oceania, just because it is divided in two political identities, one in Asia, another in Oceania? This is a political point of view of an issue that has to be considered in many other views.
3 - I put there at least three citations. I can provide more, if it´s necessary, since I have a good amount of Portuguese-era books about Timor. I´ve never, repeat NEVER saw any of these books saying that Timor was in Asia. All in Oceania.
4 - Why Timor has languages of the same branch as Papua, Australia and other Melanesian nations?
5 - If Timor is not in Oceania, what the country is doing as a Pacific Islands Forum (PIF) observer? (see table)
6 - The native Timorese has all physical features of Papuas and aboriginals from Australia. If you see them on TV or on a book, without mention from where they are, you won´t guess the difference...are they really an asiatic society?
7 - There´s also the Indonesia problem. As I said, the Portuguese always wrote, before independence, that Timor was in Oceania. Then, with the Indonesia annexation, and the fear about separatists movememnt (that are still strong, especially in Irian and Maluku), Indonesia always reinforce its Asian identity, in order to give an unique identity to the country and supress separatism. So, Timor was in Asia, for all accounts, during Indonesia occupation. Since its independence, however, this Indonesian point-of-view was preserved....but it´s only a remaining idea of the past administration. The culture, the people, all points to Oceania.
8 - And finally, the Papuas from Irian and New Guinea identifies themselves with the Timorese in their propaganda about a free Papua nation. In this propaganda, Timor is viewed as a brother that already achieved what they want, the full independence. Ok, you will say that it´s just political propaganda, and I agree...but why they would advocate a parenthood with another nation if they wouldn´t have any link with that nation? Why they don´t advocate any association with the Sumatra separatist branch? After all, Timor, Sumatra, Irian are all Indonesian islands...
Emerson —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
189.41.216.202 (
talk) 17:57, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
No, Merbabu, The article in the first time I changed it carried ONLY THE SOUTHEAST ASIA point of view. See the history there.
Let´s go to your affirmations:
1-I see lots of people criticizing the Wallace line. Can you come up with a better methodology? If you have, you didn´t mentioned it here, and I would love to see it. We don´t even know what method United Nations used to classify East Timor in Southeast Asia.
2-Merbabu, have you ever considered why we classify PNG in Oceania and Irian in Asia, since this is ONE ISLAND, with the same caracteristics? Are there any dramatic differences between the East and the West to make this difference? If tomorrow Irian Jaya gains independence, in what continent would you classify this new country? Try to apply this to East Timor and you will understand my point. This classification of Irian in Asia IS JUST POLITICAL. It doesn´t consider the culture, nor the society, nor anything else. It´s the eternal fear Indonesia has of its huge diversity, and the problems (separatism) that it can bring.
3-Who said I am being partial? See the page about the Wallace Line...you chopped out the table comparing East Timor and Indonesia, and their percentage in Wallace line. THIS IS A TABLE BASED ON WALLACE LINE. IF YOU FEEL IT´S NOT ACCURATE, JUST PUT SOMETHING ELSE BETTER, BUT DON´T CHOP INFO YOU DON´T AGREE WITH. You again changed the text and REPEATED TWICE the mention of Timor being part of ASEAN. Ok, it´s also member of the PACIFIC ISLAND FORUM. You seem eager to show that Timor is in Asia, and ignore all facts towards Oceania....so who are taking a biased attitude here?
4-Merbabu, you will find Austronesian languages even in Madagascar....should we include Madagascar in Asia? But, check Ethnologue....where are the majority of Austronesian languages? In Asia or Oceania? See the tree linking the languages of East Timor, Papua New Guinea, Solomon Islands, and then tell me your opinion.
5-East Timor is also in the PACIFIC ISLANDS FORUM, and you seem to "forget" that point too...isn´t Egypt in Africa and participates in a lot of Organizations made for Asian states? The same occurs to Israel and European-oriented organizations...what about Turkey being part of the EU? Isn´t it an Asian country?
6-The Javanese ARE in Southeast Asia. The Wallace line says it. I agree with it. I am not saying that most of Indonesia is in Oceania, but, some 1/4 of its territory, FOR SURE IS.
7-I am qutoing Portuguese books and data because they settled in Timor for 450 years...that is enought time to discover in what continent their colony is, or not? And, to the Portuguese, what benefit would bring to them affirming something like that? It would be more attractive to colonization if they have classified their colony in Asia...at least, is nearer than Oceania, to the common view...
8-I am not saying that Wikipedia should erase all data about Southeast Asia. I am just saying that TIMOR IS IN OCEANIAN CONTIENT. And I am referring to the political propaganda that Papuans make in their separatist effort...you can see many videos on Youtube or documents everywhere else where they put East Timor, the aboriginals in Australia and the people from PNG in the same group.
Please sign an account and stop using multiple anon IP's. -- Merbabu 04:23, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
This is approaching nonsense you are trying to "ganhar no grito" (in Portuguese, "win by yeling louder"...asking the admin to block me won´t stop anybody...you don´t have another better souce than Wallace line, and says you will erase whatever you want? You can not be considered in a serious way. Emerson
And once again, you should see the sources where the article was written down! See
http://www.world-gazetteer.com/, the source you erased when you erased my versions from the website.
And "your" source of the UN is published?? Come on! See how you are making a biased judgement there??? Can you tell exactly what method UN used to make that classification? Wallace line provides a specifical method! You can not agree with that, but it´s there, until you come up with a better one.
Emerson —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
189.41.199.20 (
talk) 05:24, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
There's no right answer here, because "continent" is an ambiguous concept.
Geologically, there is no such thing as "Oceania" and "Asia". Timor is said to be on the boundary of the continents "Australia" and "Eurasia", and the jury is still out on which one of them Timor belongs to. [9]
Geopolitically, the best reference I am aware of (which still isn't all that great, because geopolitics is such a political area) is The World Factbook, which states that Timor-Leste is in "Southeastern Asia". [10].
Hesperian 05:31, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
The same thing about the UN...is it a written source? What criteria CIA and UN uses for this classification in Southeast Asia? Nobody told this until now.
It´s simple, Hesperian...Wallace line has a criteria....a biological-oriented criteria that´s true, but, it´s at least a detailed schema saying EXACTLY where to consider Oceania and where to consider Asia. CIA and UN just brings you a table, nothing else, stating where is the location of the country.....but do they say anything about a criteria? How they came to conclusion that East Timor is in Southeast Asia? Anybody who studies the culture and the society of Timor would see that Timor is oriented towards Oceania, and that Asian classification is more political than anything else...so, what else than this political orientation they have to offer? The island of New Guinea, for example, has the same culture, etc. on both sides, but one part is in Asia, the other in Oceania....what can explains that besides a mere political interpretation of the area? You may like or not Wallace line, but, is there another criteria which classifies countries using the largest amount of views possible? If there´s one, let´s forget the Wallace Line and put this new one, that´s what I am saying! Emerson
That´s another main point I tried to explain to Merbabu, Hesperian. My claim is not based only in the Wallace line. Do you have access to Portuguese Encyclopedias? Search any, for "Timor", and you will see that all Portuguese authors used to classifiy the Portuguese colony in Oceania. I remeber "Lello Universal" and "Enciclopédia Luso-Brasileira", that were quoted by me on the link that opened this topic, but Merbabu indavertedly erased that too...
Emerson —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Domaleixo (
talk •
contribs) 06:36, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
When I say "I remember", I am trying to say that there are more books, smart guy...Lello is divided in 4 volumes and ELB in 10, and you can find info about the island on the 4 th volume of the first, and in the 8 th at the second....at least I am giving quotations, I am not doing like you, erasing lots of data, and important tables. I am still waiting for any quotation from your side about this subject, and all you do is to erase my work. Learn with Hesperian, at least he is trying to dialogue with sources!
PS: In case you didn´t noticed, ALL the references at the article are mine, including the one about UN
Emerson —Preceding unsigned comment added by Domaleixo ( talk • contribs) 07:43, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
This debate is pretty silly and the comments by the IP editor are in breach of the policy Wikipedia:Civility. The obvious solution seems to be to state that different definitions place East Timor in Oceania and Asia and cite both definitions in line with Wikipedia:Verifiability. A citation should also be provided to support text stating that the most commonly accepted modern definition places East Timor in Asia if this is the case - it is my understanding that it is. Certainly, the above argument is rather sterile and seems pointless. -- Nick Dowling 09:46, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Am I blocked? Why are you so anxious to get rid of me, Merbabu? And who said a compromise is made? You want to win something yelling louder, young man....and not thinking....that´s your problem... Emerson —Preceding unsigned comment added by FRETILIN ( talk • contribs) 10:00, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I can even scan the pages of Lello Encyclopedia and Encyclopedia Luso-Brasileira saying EAST TIMOR IS IN OCEANIA. The book I quoted on Arthur Marcos (featured on the link above) describes with richness of details how Timor tribal society works, just like the other from Oceania, there´s the Wallave line, which you criticize a lot, but is incapable of showing a more modern and improved method of classification (is the Wallacea says something complelely different????) WHAT TECHNICAL ARGUMENT YOU CAN MAKE to affirm Timor is in Southeast Asia, aside than quoting statements from UN and CIA, without any other clear technical explanation??? SO, STOP BEING AN ASSHOLE AND COMES UP WITH SOME TECHINICAL DATA, NOT JUST TABLES WITH NO TECHNICAL-GEOGRAPHICAL BASED SOURCES! Emerson —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.41.209.38 ( talk) 13:23, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Based on its legal description found in the constitution and quoted on the Wikipedia page Flag_of_East_Timor, and comparing it to other versions of the flag that I found in a Google Images search, the white star in the flag should be pointing directly at the left edge of the flag, i.e. pointing at "nine o'clock" or 270 degrees. Instead, it is well off this mark. You can see this easily in that the edge of the star from which this left most point of the star juts should be vertical; instead, it's well off plumb.
I have never been to East Timor; I don't know if flags in East Timor actually don't follow the stated rules; I don't know if the stated rules are wrong. I could not find an East Timorian government site (which I'd think would be definitive) showing the flag. Regardless, something does seem to need to be fixed: either the picture, or the rules, or East Timor's compliance with its own Constitution. (If the later, we can't fix it, but we may at least want to note it, as it is sort of interesting.) Major Danby ( talk) 17:13, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
"In the center of the black triangle there is a white star of five ends, meaning the light that guides. The white star has one of its ends turned towards the left side end of the flag. The remaining part of the flag is red."
According to the CIA World Factbook web site: The US Board on Geographic Names (BGN) now recognizes Timor-Leste as the short form name for East Timor. See here and here. Sounds like a solid argument in favor of moving this article to Timor-Leste. ☆ CieloEstrellado 21:16, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
As a Portuguese, I would like to see at least a couple of good citations on the "traditional pattern of abuse and mistreatment". Otherwise this is not a neutral article. I don't agree with anything bad that happened during the colonial era, and I'm totally unrelated to anyone that lived in the any Portuguese colony at the time. However, such a derogatory remark about a nation as a whole in a public space must be supported very well to say the least. How exactly is Portugal worse than Spain with it's huge scale massacres in America, British hypocritically claiming themselves as champions of the end of slave trade but holding the record for 18th century (when the trade peaked) slave trade at 2.5 million people, Germany wiping out a whole ethnic group in Namibia (the Herero) and Belgium with its racial segregation and it's grave later consequences in Rwanda, just to cite a few examples?
Dinis
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Dinisov ( talk • contribs) 15:53, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Well that's an easy one! Portugal was the very first country in Europe to abolish slavery in it's home territory, in 1761, 46 years before the british (although the British were, to be fair, the first to abolish it in their entire empire). We also had texts defending the rights of the indigenous since the 16th century. You can read that in any neutral history book, or in the "slavery" page of wikipedia, Portuguese version of course, I believe the english one spends a lot of time discussing the Slave Trade Act and fails to mention that most of the slaves the Portuguese had in Brazil were sold to us by Dutch and British merchants... Absence of Citations aside I stated verifiable facts, I didn't just insult nations and their "brutal rule", which are but mere opinions. As an encyclopedia, Wikipedia should stick to the facts. Opinions have no place here, whether ours or citations of opinions, particularly broad sweeping ones offensive to a whole people. How would you feel if I mentioned Britain as a country of binge drinking hooligans? I can also find hundreds of citations for that, but are they valid or appropriate? Sure you have hooligans and we slave traded, but does that define us as nations? I also try to not use personal insults in my posts, and this is far too interesting a discussion for that ok? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dinisov ( talk • contribs) 17:17, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
User:Ex nihil and I are proposing that Military of East Timor be moved to Timor Leste Defence Force as this is both the correct and common English-language name for the military. 'Military of East Timor' is a generic name which is not normally used to describe the military - its common English-language name is 'F-FDTL', which is the abreviation for 'Falintil-Forças de Defesa de Timor Leste'. This translates into English as 'Timor Leste Defence Force'. While 'East Timor Defence Force' was used shortly after the force was established, it is now considered outdated, and allmost all publications and foreign governments use 'F-FDTL'. Comments are invited at: Talk:Military of East Timor. -- Nick Dowling ( talk) 10:00, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
I think "timur" means south because its related with tagalog "timog/timug" which means south and the island of Timor is situated in the far south of the boundary known by Malay world where it got it's name during before pre-colonial times. That's only my own opinion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.213.127.68 ( talk) 15:46, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
[12] added a reference to a city called Aiceo. I would normally just leave it in, leaving it for someone better acquainted than me to judge notability. However, it was preceded by this, which seems like a clear effort to pump a sponsored site named, surprise surprise! Aiceo.com. So, delete the addition, or keep it? Kww ( talk) 02:06, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Citation 15 in this article is listed incorrectly as:
Benetech Human Rights Data Analysis Group (9 February 2006). "The Profile of Human Rights Violations in Timor-Leste, 1974-1999". A Report to the Commission on Reception, Truth and Reconciliation of Timor-Leste. Human Rights Data Analysis Group (HRDAG).
The correct citation for this article is as follows:
Silva, Romesh and Patrick Ball, "The Profile of Human Rights Violations in Timor-Leste, 1974-1999." A Report by the Benetech Human Rights Data Analysis Group to the Commission on Reception, Truth and Reconciliation. 9 February 2006. Available online at http://www.hrdag.org/timor —Preceding unsigned comment added by Flyerfox ( talk • contribs) 05:09, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
The main point below is that article incorrectly summarizes the UN report on human rights violations in East Timor by Indonesia. The references given below say that CAVR reports the range of deaths from hunger and disease (during the occupation) is 102,800 - 183,000; that Indonesian forces used hunger to kill people; and that these deaths constitute genocide.
I think it's important to modify the article to reflect the true conclusions of the UN CAVR report about the Indonesian occupation.
The Wikipedia article misleadingly states:
"approximately 18,600 killings and 84,200 'excess' deaths from hunger and illness.[15]"
which lead me to believe the Indonesian government intentionally killed relatively few people, but that difficult conditions caused many deaths.
However, looking more into the UN report, this impression is wrong. This summary of the report by an Australian newspaper says:
http://www.yale.edu/gsp/east_timor/unverdict.html
claims the report says the Indonesian army deliberately used starvation to exterminate people. The occupying army killed up to 180,000 civilians [actually the upper limit is 183,000 from hunger and illness plus 18,600 killings or very close to 200,000 victims]. They also used Napalm and chemical weapons. The Australian paper says the UN report found the deaths from starvation to be an act of genocide.
The official online CAVR report also states (at the end of this pdf):
http://www.cavr-timorleste.org/updateFiles/english/CONFLICT-RELATED%20DEATHS.pdf
that these figures are minimum conservative estimates, the article mistakenly quotes these figures as a "lower range" and approximate values, whereas CAVR states that these figures are the lowest possible numbers, and the actual number of deaths is certainly higher:
http://www.hrdag.org/resources/timor-leste_faqs.shtml#1
The actual range of deaths from hunger and illness is given as 102,800 - 183,000.
It would be fair to add that the Indonesian defense minister responded to the official UN CAVR report with a denial that these human rights violations ever occurred.
If the official UN report made by an independent third party to the conflict concluded there was an act of genocide, I think that should be mentioned.
RiceMilk ( talk) 04:27, 3 October 2008 (UTC)RiceMilk 20:48, October 22, 2008
I agree that Merbabu's correction is an improvement in the article. Merbabu made an excellent point that the UN sponsored report is a much better source for fact than any journalistic summary. The FAQ is also just a few lines long and cannot stand in for the report itself. The actual report makes specific, strong conclusions. I provide some references and quotes that support a much stronger statement even than the modified one proposed above.
The official 2500 page UN report is available on line. Section 8.2.1 A is on pages 5,6 etc. of this pdf:
http://www.cavr-timorleste.org/chegaFiles/finalReportEng/08--Responsibiliy-and-Accountability.pdf
It states:
8.2.1 A The State of Indonesia and the Indonesian Security Forces:
The Commission finds that:
The military invasion of Timor-Leste by Indonesia on 7 December 1975 was a violation of one of the most fundamental and universally accepted principles of international law - the prohibition on the illegal use of force by one state against another. The Commission holds the State of Indonesia to be accountable for this violation and responsible for its consequences. Throughout the period of the illegal military occupation of Timor-Leste members of the Indonesian security forces committed massive, widespread and systematic human rights violations against the civilian population of the territory. The Commission is satisfied that these violations amounted to crimes against humanity and war crimes.
Integral to the military operations designed to overcome resistance to the Indonesian invasion and occupation was official acceptance of the commission of gross violations including widespread and systematic executions, arbitrary detention, torture, and rape and sexual slavery. The Commission finds that the Government of Indonesia and the Indonesian security forces are primarily responsible and accountable for the death from hunger and illness of between 100,000 and 180,000 East Timorese civilians who died as a direct result of the Indonesian military invasion and occupation. The Commission received conclusive evidence that between the years 1976-1979 the Indonesian security forces systematically:
It continues to document the methods used by Indonesian security forces to starve the people. These include burning and poisoning food supplies, destroying livestock, and locking up large numbers of civilians in prison camps and starving them to death by denying them access to food. It says CAVR has conclusive evidence of these facts.
I think it would be fair to summarize the official UN report and also the official Indonesian denial issued in 2006. something like:
The CAVR found "conclusive evidence" that "the Government of Indonesia and the Indonesian security forces are primarily responsible for the death from hunger and illness of between 100,00 0 and 180,000 East Timorese civilians", and crimes against humanity and war crimes (footnote section 8.2.1 A of the 2500 page official UN CAVR report).
It might also be good to have a reference to this wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_occupation_of_East_Timor and possibly: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_invasion_of_East_Timor
I didn't find any online official Indonesian denial of the CAVR report other than the one reported in the CAVR FAQ referenced above.
RiceMilk ( talk) 08:57, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Concerning the country's name, there are some references in the article and here in the talk page to ISO 3166 as prescribing an official or standardized name for Timor-Leste.
This is incorrect. The purpose of ISO 3166 is only to standardize country codes, not names. It does use English and French language names in its text to refer to countries whose codes its prescribes, but it is not its role to truly prescribe the names of those countries.
"[ISO 3166] does not establish the names of countries, territories or areas of geographical interest..." [13] (emphasis in the original).
The only party with authority to decide on official names for this country is the country itself. And even then, other governments and institutions (such as the UN, the ISO, or dictionary and encyclopedia editors) are bound at most by courtesy and respect - not by any law - to use that official name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.57.245.11 ( talk) 06:34, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
The main article says there were 40-70,000 killed during the Japanese occuptation, but it's marked citation needed. Well, one such is the official web site of the Government of Timor-Leste, see: http://www.easttimorgovernment.com/history.htm In other articles, the figure is given as 40-60,000.
The real problem is that all Timor-Leste population figures, inluding census figures, are unreliable. For examole, different sources state that during the Indonesian occupation from 1975 to independance, some 100,000 or 200,000 Timorese were killed. Demographers, using the available data, tend towards the lower figure, which is still a significant proportion of the population today of over a million. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PeterJohnBeech ( talk • contribs) 00:12, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
{{
editsemiprotected}}
Suggest removing "In places where Portuguese rule was asserted, it tended to be brutal and exploitative." For the reasons stated in my posts in the talk section "Traditional pattern of abuse and mistreatment". It is not neutral and a mere opinion. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Dinisov (
talk •
contribs) 00:21, December 13, 2008
No offense taken, I know the Portuguese behaved badly in South America. My only point with this whole thing is not to demonstrate blind patriotism, but to contribute my 5 cents to solve what I feel is a huge bias in history and its understanding due to the dominance of the British empire, then the US and of the English language. You never see this kind of sentences referring to countries responsible for other atrocities, and the sole reason is that the more numerous and rich peoples of those countries don't like to feel bad about themselves, preferring to blame other smaller nations that don't speak English. But if all that is too theoretical there is one simple argument: that is an opinion, even worse, a citation of an opinion. If you check the Wikipedia principles it says you should stick to the facts. By all means give good citations of stuff like numbers of dead and hard facts, you won't see me complain. And if you want an example of a good Portuguese, check out the Wikipedia page about Padre António Vieira. Keep in mind this precedes the all-important (in the English world) Livingstone by around 200 years.-- Dinisov ( talk) 17:07, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
wikipedia: There remains controversy over the government's promotion of Portuguese, only spoken by an estimated 5 per cent of the population [1] over Tetum.
the real world: UNESCO Timor Leste, 21/04/2005 The increase of the number of speakers of Portuguese in East Timor, that almost tripled since the independence of the country five years ago, is going to be discussed in the Lusophone meeting, between 3 and 5 of October, in Bragança. For this evolution the support of Portugal has contributed, but also from other Lusophone countries, namelly Brazil. (...)the number of timorese speaking Portuguese since the independence passed from about 5 to 10 percent to 25 per cent".... this lusophone meeting had the presence of timorese institutions.
Did the militias moved to the English internet? We see attacks to the name of the country, to the independence (in relation to the country it gained independence), and to the language. -- Pedro 16:25, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I have added both figures (5% and 25%) to the article as there are sources that quote both. This is indicative of the fact that there is a genuine controversy (much of it political). As someone living in Timor and working in a sector where language is a big issue, my first hand experience leads me to believe the lower estimate. However, perhaps both need to be quoted to provide balance.
There is also no doubt that there is hostility towards the Portuguese language from a large segment of younger Timorese. I am merely trying to help people understand the complex language situation in Timor.
Can somebody clearly explain the controversy? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mortimerlee ( talk • contribs) 22:13, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
I also think it needs to be defined what standard is being used...Many Timorese can understand some Portuguese because of the shared words in Tetum. Does this count? Most however, seem not to be able to speak or read much of the language. I suspect the larger estimates are using a much lower standard of literacy.
I also believe the remark about militias is cruel and an insult to the victims of the occupation, including many friends of mine who lost family and suffered themselves. I am not trying to attack anybody, if anything to defend the dominant national language from further colonialism! -- 202.72.106.20 02:52, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Quote from The La’o Hamutuk Bulletin, Vol. 6, No. 3: August 2005. La'o Hamutuk is a local Timorese NGO. This article is available from their website and concerns the article quoted above by Pedro, which is not in fact from UNESCO, but from the Portuguese national wire service Lusa.
"In April 2005, the Portuguese wire service Lusa wrote that "the number of East Timorese who speak Portuguese has increased three times since Independence," going from 5-10% percent to almost 25%. Such a claim has little basis in reality. The number of East Timorese who speak Portuguese is, in reality, quite low."
Wikipedia should be about establishing the truth (where it can be established), not pushing agendas. -- 202.72.106.20 04:54, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Hello again Pedro, this will be my last comment on this issue (for now anyway) as we appear to be getting caught up in an electronic "baku malu". We both clearly feel strongly about our positions. Firstly, I am Australian - but the issue isn't about English. It is about Tetum. Tetum needs support which it is not getting now. One example is that the official government gazette of Timor currently only publishes laws and official announcements in Portuguese, not Tetum. Portuguese should always hold a higher place in Timor because of the shared linguistic heritage (although many locals still see English as a more important language for Timor's future), but NOT over Tetum. Tetum should have pride of place before any of the colonial languages or neo-UN-colonial English.
Regarding sources, my first source is a local NGO called JSMP which comments on the number of Portuguese speakers. They have written a report dealing with language in the courts which is available online. The second is the recently released UNDP report which states as of 2005/6 that the number of fluent speakers is still under 5%, with them referencing the Timorese census. This is also available from their website. The third reference I have mentioned is the article from Lao Hamutuk referenced above which also states a similar figure. This is also available online and two of the three are written by Timorese with the third by a UN agency.
I admit the National Institute of Linguistics (INL) claims a higher figure for Portuguese speakers in Timor, but I feel the weight of sources that dispute this make the claims of INL questionable. Perhaps they are using a different level of literacy? For the record, I am currently learning Portuguese here in Dili and also speak reasonable Tetum. My first language is English and I have a very small amount of Indonesian. I have helped organise Portuguese classes for my Timorese colleagues through the Brazilian Embassy and (I believe) I have a pretty good feel for the situation both in Dili and the districts. I would like to let some other people contribute to this debate now, but of course Pedro you are welcome to a right of reply! -- 202.72.106.20 12:22, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Since the countries name is the Democratic Rebulic of Timor Leste, shouldn't that be the article name, as opposed to the english translation to keep ito the standard, for example People's Republic of China keeps the prefix and Côte d'Ivoire uses the countries name and not the english tranlation. Philc T E C I 17:54, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
I think you guys do not know the convention here. Look at the Ivory Coast article. Ivory Coast is redirected to Côte d'Ivoire. Doesn't it imply that even for the English language article, we should use the country's chosen spelling? Thus we should redirect East Timor (unofficial name) to Timor Leste (official name). Kiwi8 09:05, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Calling your opponents pig-headed doesn't accomplish things, and only serve to show your intolerance and inability to convince the other side. Kiwi8 16:24, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
My points on using Timor Leste are very simple. It is still pronounciable in English, and that it is already been readily used in English language newspapers such as Singapore, etc. Not to mention, people searching for "East Timor" will still be able to find the article since it is just a redirect to Timor Leste. But the point is, we got to get people to start geting used to the term Timor Leste because officially, it is the current entity of the country there, to distinguish from its previous occupier. Why we still call Germany as Germany is because that is still the term used in English language newspapers.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Kiwi8 ( talk • contribs) 18:42, 30 May 2006
Just for clarification:
There always is just one official long version and one official short version of a country's name. To find out the correct version you simply have to refer to how the country's ambassador is accredited in the U.S. (and in other major English speaking countries). So this proves Timor-Leste to be the only correct version in English.
It's interesting (though admittedly not pertinent to the discussion) that based on the etymology given in the article, the name can be translated as "East East".-- Eddylyons 20:42, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
the name is going to be East East then isn't it. Timor is the name of the island in the Timorese language, to the Timorese people. East is the English compass direction for Leste: east. The name in English is East Timor. Enzedbrit 10:17, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
A new point not made by others: I heard it several times on the TV news as "Timor Leste". That along with other more official user use of "Timor Leste" makes me favor the article be renamed Timor Leste and a redirect from East Timor. Archtransit 22:26, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I think I may understand *why* this confusion occurs:
1. Even though Portuguese is an official language, very few Timorese are proficient in Portuguese. *Possibly*, 'Timor-Leste' may be seen most often as being just an unanalyzable name, not recognising 'Leste' as 'East' even when speaking Portuguese, just as 'Timor' (Melanesian for 'East') isn't recognised either (Melanesian only entered East Timor with the indonesian occupation so it isn't that well known either).
2. *Not a single* native Portuguse speaker with a reasonable command of English would normally leave 'Leste' untranslated; while for the Timorese 'Timorleste' may be a single name, for any other Portuguese speaker it is nothing else than 'the part of Timor which happens to lie to the East'. There is an East Timor just as there was an East Germany, North Yemen or South Korea. It just is *ungrammatical* (in Portuguese) to treat 'Leste' like an opaque part of a name and leave it untranslated.
3. Possibly because it ends in -r, Timor got to be just -Leste 'East' rather than -de-Leste '-of-East'. Usually, the short form is used for informal parts of cities or regions (Lisbon-north, Alentejo-south), and the longer one for well defined units such as countries.
4. The indonesian name for the country is... Timur Timur.
5. As long as there is no other *-Timor in the same context (name of an independent country), the normal Portuguese usage is just to refer to East-Timor as Timor. This has absolutely nothing to do with disrespect for West-Timor or any other kind of political point - it's just the way languages work, though
6. 'Myanmar' is a stupid name on linguistic grounds, not because of any political motives. 'Burma' is *the exact same word* with the difference that it has a transliteration more respectful of the history of the Burmese language (and there is not -r in the word, either). It's laudable to respect the names of other peoples; it's undignifying *for them and their names* to let them lecture English speakers on how they should be adapted to English - they are not the best source. They don't speak English well enough. Of course, they may be able to make a case for you to abandon some name in particular - it may be derisive, it may coincide with something which doesn't sound good in their own language, lots of arguments can be made. But an argument is by definition part of a discussion ans only holds if it's cogent. 85.241.115.42 ( talk) 01:01, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
7. Just as a last note, which porbbly doesn't belong here. Countries don't have an 'official' English name, unless they have English as an official language. Istm that people are oblivious of the meaning of 'official'. Just because it's used and even insisted upon, something doesn't become official. It's only official if a rightful authority says specifically that it is 'official' - and registering it in the UN isn't the same! As an example, US authorities use English everywhere, but the US has no official language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.241.115.42 ( talk) 01:15, 28 January 2008 (UTC)