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Isn't the title merged with the British crown? [1] This information could be incorporated into the article: [2]. I believe all this would be better placed at Duke of Normandy -- Jiang 01:11 27 Jun 2003 (UTC)
The Treaty was in 1259, not 1295, but otherwise, Someone else is correct, I believe. Perhaps that should be listed in the article, and John and Henry III listed as titular dukes up to 1259? john 04:02 27 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I'm moving this to Duke of Normandy. -- Jiang
I've tried to sort out the material on the two pages to keep the list of Dukes (and info about the claims to the title) separate from Duchy of Normandy, which I think is a better place for the history and culture of the Duchy. Hope this is useful. Man vyi 13:03, Nov 20, 2004 (UTC)
The Treaty of Paris of 1259 had nothing to do with the title "Duke of Normandy." The treaty recognised that mainland Normandy and certain other territories were no longer the property of the Henry III in his capacity as Duke of Normandy but now belonged to the King of France, while insular Normandy (today, the bailiwicks of Jersey and Guernsey) remained under the Duke of Normandy - who, from 1066 to 1707 (except for 1649-1660) was also King or Queen Regnant of England, then subsequently of Great Britain (1707-1801) and United Kingdom (since 1801). The Treaty also provided that Henry III could keep the Acquitaine and some other French territory, but only as vassal to the King of France.
The title "Duke of Normandy" has never been abandoned by any monarch. Like "Duke of Lancaster," it is personal to the sovereign and may not be borne by anyone else. The two titles together are so strongly tied to the historic right of the bearer to the English/British crown, that the sex is never changed for a queen regnant. Elizabeth II, like Victoria, Anne, Mary II, Elizabeth I, Mary I, and (for those who include her) Jane before her, is a female Duke of Normandy and Duke of Lancaster. This is because the British Constitution, while recognising Queens Regnant, has only recognised "duchess" as indicating the wife of a duke. So, if she were the Duchess of Normandy or Lancaster, that would mean Philip was the Duke -- which would suggest he had a bizarrely abstract right to be king, by virtue of being the Duke of Normandy and the Duke of Lancaster - because those titles are personal to the sovereign. So, to avoid any question among the really die-hard traditionalists (e.g., people like the ones who signed the Scottish "National Covenant" in their own blood), the Queen is "Duke" of Normandy and Lancaster, instead of "Duchess."
Beyond its historic ceremonial value, of course, "Duke of Normandy" is still an active title -- because, although mainland Normandy was lost to France in 1259, the British monarch is still the personal sovereign of INSULAR (island) Normandy, namely Jersey and Guernsey. Duke of Lancaster is also still an active title, because it's still an active dukedom (or duchy). As Duke of Lancaster, the Queen owns land in Lacashire and London (the latter including the land on which the Savoy Hotel sits), and uses the income from the Dukedom of Lancaster to buy her clothes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.200.116.6 ( talk • contribs) 14:01, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Please see [4] ... if article regulars agree that the removed material was POV please feel free to revert my reversion. ++ Lar: t/ c 01:50, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
CAN SOMEONE EXPLAIN HOW ROLLO "EXECUTED 100 CHRISTIANS UPON HIS DEATH"? HOW DOES SOMEONE EXECUTE ANYTHING AFTER HE DIES? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.205.40.3 ( talk • contribs) 20:40, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Nothing on Rollo's page and title's page mentions this. After more research, it appears it's been a loose belief that he ordered it on his deathbed. But if we remember that he himself was a former pagan and foreigner to France - his court most likely did not carry out the order. This is all speculation though.
GeoMedrek (
talk) 02:18, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
Why is the current holder of this title, Queen Elizabeth II, styled as the Duke of Normandy instead of the Duchess of Normandy? Ronnotel ( talk) 15:19, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Can someone please provide a source for the assertion that James II was created Duke of Normandy by the King of France? Opera hat ( talk) 14:06, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
Although Queen Elizabeth is the current Duke of Normandy, she is not a person that readers would commonly associate with the title, since the title was of far greater significance 800 or 1000 years ago than it is today, and the article text (as opposed to the lists) deals with the history of the Dukes from 911 to 1660. I propose to return to the image Image:Rollo statue in falaise.JPG, which was at the top of the article until recently. The image Image:William I, Lichfield Cathedral.jpg would be an acceptable alternative. Scolaire ( talk) 08:38, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
That section, should be divided into List of English Dukes of Normandy & List of British Dukes of Normandy, IMHO. GoodDay ( talk) 19:51, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
I feared, my republicanism might've made me suspect. GoodDay ( talk) 20:01, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
Seems to me that anyone who wants a list of kings of England (and Britain) since 1259 can readily find one, so why duplicate it here? If this article does list them, it ought to say why the present duke is not named François or Michel. — Tamfang ( talk) 20:57, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Nice one, Tamfang. Can you summarise/paraphrase that and add it to the article? Scolaire ( talk) 21:40, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
I have expanded the Duchy of Normandy article adding, inter alia, everything that's in the Appanage section. Since the title "Duke of Normandy" had different meanings in France and in England after 1259, and since this article is primarily about the English title, I propose to delete the Appanage section from this article. Scolaire ( talk) 21:48, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
Since Elizabeth II is a woman, shouldn't she be titled as the "Duchess" of Normandy, and not the "Duke" of Normandy? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.109.152.109 ( talk) 03:59, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
This is an encyclopaedia. It's supposed to contain facts and accurate information. Whether you think a tradition is "daft" or not is irrelevant, but displays P.O.V. bias. 142.167.102.186 ( talk) 23:05, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
If Elizabeth is a duke, what does that make her husband? (Quiet, please - I'm trying to be serious.) -- Wikiain ( talk) 02:25, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
-Well; she isn't a 'Duke' because Henry III of England gave up the title of Duke of Normandy in 1259 and none of his successors have used the title since. Since the cessation of Normandy to the Kings of France, several junior members of the French Royal Family were granted the Duchy of Normandy before the abolition of the monarchy there. At any rate; we have that lovely word for a female Duke in the English language: 'Duchess' for women who hold a duchy or dukedom in their own right (rather than just by being married to a Duke). That and the fact that inheritance of the Duchy was governed by Salic Law (because it was part of France)-i.e. that a woman cannot inherit titles or land, nor can a man inherit lands or titles through a woman either- means that even were the Duchy to still exist, HM the Queen could not possibly hold it. (and neither for that matter could Henry VII, Mary I, Elizabeth I, James I, Mary II, William III, Anne, George I, or Victoria for that matter-or in fact any of the English/British monarchs from Henry VII onwards.)
At no time between 1259 and the present day have the Channel Islands constituted a notional 'Duchy of Normandy' either. (unless you want to talk about the period during the hundred years war when Normandy was a notional part of the English monarch's theoretical French realm-something theoretically valid until the renunciation of the title 'King of France' by George III in 1801.) They are simply the Bailiwick of Jersey and the Bailiwick of Guernsey, and the Queen has no separate title for either entity. The idea that the monarch is also 'Duke of Normandy' is a common misconception (even erroneously repeated on the royal website-although it doesn't actually say that they actually hold the title-which is a fair point because they don't) that has absolutely no legal basis. The Duchy and title were renounced in 1259. End of story. Even if they had, the fact that in the eyes of English law, after 1340 the King of England was also King of France would mean that the Duchy of Normandy would have become merged in the crown, meaning the notional 'King of England and France' was no longer Duke of Normandy because it is impossible for a monarch to hold a title from himself-a monarch cannot be his own feudal inferior and any lesser title is replaced by the the grander title of 'King'-to give a parallel, there were several members of the French Royal family who held Duchies under the French crown that ceased to use those particular titles when they inherited the crown (the Dukes of Valois, Vendome, Bourbon, Orleans and Angouleme amongst others).
As regards HRH the Duke of Edinburgh, the only state of which the Queen is Head of State of that he has a title in relation to is the UK. The Queen is quite separately Queen of Canada and Queen of Australia, for example, as regards those countries and she bears those titles (legally and officially by Act of Parliament-the
Royal Titles Act) as she does in relation to a total of 16 separate sovereign states in addition to the UK. In none of those countries does HRH the Duke of Edinburgh, nor HRH the Prince of Wales nor any other member of the Royal family for that matter have a particular title assigned to them in right of that country; only the Queen herself as she is the sovereign of each particular country.
JWULTRABLIZZARD (
talk) 03:31, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
But Henry II's mother, Matilda, was never accepted by the nobles of Normandy as Duchess (in fact only the lords of the border districts did so) and instead proclaimed Stephen as Duke. Henry II's father, Geoffrey of Anjou, conquered Normandy in 1141 and was accepted there as Duke of Normandy, thus becoming Duke by right of conquest (which trumps any rights by inheritance.) Thus Henry II technically inherited Normandy through his father, not his mother (as she was never Duchess herself), though Henry's descent from her was of course of great importance. JWULTRABLIZZARD ( talk) 21:10, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
It would be nice if those who are so firm in the conviction that the Queen is Duke of Normandy would dispute the counterarguments rather than ignoring them. For example:
Somewhere or other I've seen the full styles of Queen Mary (Tudor) and King Philip (Habsburg); I think it's in Fox-Davies The Art of Heraldry but couldn't find it through the index. I do remember that the list includes "erles of Tirol", so if Mary claimed dukeship of Normandy it ought to be in there; if it's not, will anyone's mind be changed? — Tamfang ( talk) 07:46, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
No takers in seven weeks. Can't say I'm terribly surprised. So eventually I'll get around to deleting the popular nonsense again, and someone will immediately go "is too!!!1!". — Tamfang ( talk) 16:45, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
It occurs to me that the Queen must occasionally sign something relating to the islands, and at least some such documents must be in the public record. How would one go about finding the text thereof? Either it contains some formula such as "In the name of Her Majesty the Duke" or it doesn't. — Tamfang ( talk) 20:28, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
And the French Monarch was overthrown then how could this still remain active??? Did the new French Republic recognise this agreement? Even Squatters rights would have kicked in by now. This claim sounds to me to be as frivolous as Russia's claim on Alaska. CaribDigita ( talk) 14:13, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Wrong. No one was ever simultaneously duke of Normandy and king of France: the king cannot be his own vassal. Accordingly, none of the articles on the kings mention their holding such a title. The article Philip VI of France refers to his son the future king as duke of Normandy, but John II of France does not!
A few kings of France may have been simultaneously dukes of Brittany, before Brittany (like French Navarre a bit later) was annexed to the kingdom proper; but I don't think the kings of France ever denied that Normandy was part of their kingdom. — Tamfang ( talk) 20:59, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
" However King of France was the de jure overlord of local duchies since Capetian era, even though King didn't have de facto control over duchies, he should not be able to become duke of any ancient provinces. " Am I correct ? — Siyac ( talk) 19:01, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
Wasn't Marie Antoinette's father a Duke of Normandy? I think I read something about that in Kathryn Lasky's "Royal Diaries" about her, but, then again, it is historical fiction, so I could be wrong. (Read the book! It is sooo good!) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.33.132.202 ( talk) 20:55, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
-Marie Antoinette's son; Louis Charles (the future titular Louis XVII of France) was styled Duke of Normandy between 1785 and 1789. JWULTRABLIZZARD ( talk) 21:42, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
There is not much on HM in this article... Flosssock1 ( talk) 20:47, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
I confused by this but what I think I'm getting is that because the Jersey Islands are still apart of the United Kingdom they consider her the Duke of Normandy. I would like to see this elaborated on.-- 129.130.209.245 ( talk) 01:39, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
The Letters Patent of 1565 by Elizabeth I, gifting the island of Sark to Helier de Carteret clearly says in the second paragraph WHEREAS our Island of Sark, situate near our Islands of Guernsey and Jersey, within our Duchy of Normandy. See here [5] If Elizabeth I still recognised herself as having a Duchy of Normandy in 1565 long after the treaty of Paris in 1259 it must have still existed, if only as a name to call the territory. Furthermore on the British royal website regarding the Channel Islands it says that They are dependent territories of the English Crown, as successor to the Dukes of Normandy, it go's on to say that ...they owe allegiance to The Queen in her role as Duke of Normandy see here [6]. It looks as if the issue is that the role and title has continued as there was nothing else to call them, after all the islands are/have never been not part of the old Kingdom of England or of the UK today, so no other titles the Queen has covers that territory. ThinkingTwice contribs | talk 10:40, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
Excuse the late arrival into the conversation, however, does www.royal.gov.uk not state clearly that "In fulfilling its responsibilities to the Islands, the Crown acts through the Privy Council. The Secretary of State for Justice and Lord Chancellor is the Privy Counsellor primarily concerned with the affairs of the Channel Islands." She is, therefore, still the crown and the new notes reflect this - they show Her Majesty with her crown rather than Duke of Normandy garb.
The site does go on to acknowledge that "In the Channel Islands The Queen is known as The Duke of Normandy. At official functions, islanders raise the loyal toast to 'The Duke of Normandy, our Queen'." This is merely a quirky bit of fun - NOT a reflection of the true legal and constitutional position of Her Majesty.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.20.179.100 ( talk • contribs) 04:17, 28 July 2012
The article Empress Matilda seem to say, as far as I understand, that she was reigning duchess of the Duchy of Normandy jointly with her spouse from 1144 until 1149. Is this correct? If so, then should she not have an sucessionbox which states this, and should she not also be included in the List of rulers of the Duke of Normandy? It should also be stated exactly which years she ruled Normandy in the absence of her son. -- Aciram ( talk) 12:31, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
Someone with abit more knowledge than I might like to update this page. Shipsview ( talk) 08:16, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
I get that it's normally English language and Euro-American bias versus other languages and cultures, but this article seems a rather silly example of English bias against the French. Philip Augustus didn't 'declare the title forfeit' out of the ether: John wasn't the sole legitimate claimant and went out of his way to (possibly personally) murder the other guy. That should at least be mentioned in the article and the list as the basis (along with John's refusal to appear before Philip to even answer to the charges) for the French seizure, if nothing else. — LlywelynII 00:43, 23 April 2024 (UTC)