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There are 3 of them, it needs a disambiguation page. 217.43.169.139 ( talk) 21:25, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
What happened? Having just read a roundtable about D. Lipstadt's updated and apparently changed views of Irving's incarceration, I tried to add the following paragraph:
In July 2007, however, she modified her position regarding Irving's right to free speech, arguing that some speech should not be permitted:
"...there is no such thing as "pure" free speech. One cannot cry fire in a crowded -- or not so crowded -- theatre. One cannot call 911 and say someone is dying when they are not. One cannot engage in libel. One cannot tell state secrets. One cannot incite. Therefore, to suggest that free speech does not have its limitations is to ignore the real world in which we all live." [47]
The reference links here ( http://www.frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=%7B80D0BF73-5861-4B31-968E-98F0F9E81317%7D)
For some reason my entire change was completely reversed in a matter of seconds! Is the information I added in some way offensive or incorrect?
Thanks for the clarification, sorry about the formatting. I don't know that I'm overreading Lipstadt's statement although I was surprised to see that she made it (as you see in the context, she came out with it when her host challenged her a little so I thought that gave it a little more credibility than what she said earlier). But others may disagree.
Cowboygrasshopper77 18:15, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't believe I'm "interpreting" anything and I don't appreciate your tone. At first Lipstadt said that she was against censorship of speech and she disapproved of Irving's prison sentence. The organizer of the panel she participated in expressed disbelief in her sincerity and she responded that she wasn't quite as in favor of unlimited free speech as she had once either believed or claimed to believe. I think that's an interesting development in this case. 24.59.104.63 19:22, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Jpgordon, thanks for responding a little less headstrong than last time. I see your point (and that of Will Beback). I can't imagine a more authoritative source than the one I cited - the person herself - but I cede your point about "fully understanding" something without condoning it. I suppose to me "fully understand" is ambiguous, since colloquially we often say "understand" to mean "sympathize with" (as in 'I understand your pain') and I thought when reading her discussion that's what she meant. I still think she probably does. But I also acknowledge that she says in the discussion that she didn't support Irving been imprisoned. Anyway the point is probably moot and I won't cause any further trouble with it. Cowboygrasshopper77 20:06, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
In the interests of academic accuracy it is necessary to include a citation for this quote at the end of the article
"Irving continues to make his presence felt in Europe, championing far-right causes"
Which far right causes? It is very generalistic to not suggest which causes he is supporting. Patchworkquilt 06:33, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Note 34 references an article by Christopher Hitchens entitled "Churchill Take a Fall" appearing in the April 2002 Atlantic Monthly. The actual article is titled "The Medals of His Defeats," and consists of a review of thirteen World War II-era books on Winston Churchill. The article makes no mention of the incident described in this article, in which it is alleged that Hitchens writes of hearing Irving recite a racist rhyme to his daughter. Therefore, in accordance with Wikipedia style guidelines on verifiability, I suggest that this "source" be removed. Objections? Cak58 19:00, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
"Contentious in large part for advancing interpretations of the war considered favourable to the German side and for association with far-right groups that advanced these views, by 1988 he began advocating the view that the Holocaust did not take place as a systematic and deliberate genocide, and quickly grew to be one of the most prominent advocates of Holocaust denial, costing him what scholarly reputation he had outside those circles." Can someone fix this? It looks like a disconnected run-on sentence. Brian Pearson 01:14, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Maybe the letter mentioned under Holocaust denial [3] should be cited. Brian Pearson 02:05, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
So, is he just a holocaust denier, or is he that AND a Neo-Nazi? Arbiteroftruth 02:54, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Just an historian who didn't know his place - he has found it now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.131.181.165 ( talk) 22:09, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Good general attack, but is there a specific fact asserted by Irving that you refute? He is quite good at debating alleged facts, and I am sure that he would like you to cite the truth that he denies that you think makes him "not really a [sic] historian". Tom —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.243.93.250 ( talk) 20:51, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Tom - no there appear to be no facts anyone wants to argue with Irving. Read up on Evans - other than to Evans and his wiki supporters - his analysis is pretty weak. Telling Lies is pretty good for an adhominem piece, even better to practice spotting bad argumentation, way beyond the wiki crowd. 159.105.80.141 17:13, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Didn't Irvin himself admit to not being a historian in one of his many trials? I will check Niskor http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/i/irving-david/ and report back. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.234.250.71 ( talk) 09:35, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
7.77 In his evidence Irving reiterated on a number of occasions that he is primarily a literary historian and that, at least until the present proceedings were commenced , he did not regard himself as an expert on the Holocaust. Accordingly until April 1988 he believed what he had been told about the killing of Jews in Auschwitz and the other death camps. The 1977 edition of Hitler's War contains several references to the gassing of Jews.
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/i/irving-david/judgment-07-01.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.234.250.71 ( talk) 10:57, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
What has happened to this article? This is a heated discussion and, whatever our views on Irving, it would help to keep a little etiquette.
However, its sad to see this article is imbued with heavy personal prejudice and jibes. its detailed and accurate, but from start to finish David is described with evident irony and sarcasm. A little standardisation would not go amiss, I feel. Its a biography, not a piece of propoganda in its own right. Matt Ward
Okay I just added a reference-needed tag to the "discredited historian" bit. I am NOT objecting to the word "discredited". I am pointing out that the reference used to back up this serious claim is very poor - it only mentions (by way of anecdote) that one UK newspaper decided not to call him an historian....in 1969! This neither supports the claim that Irving is widely discredited nor the claim that he is currently discredited. Furthermore, that 1969 anecdote takes place in a newspaper office rather than academia. If he is widely, currently discredited - given he is a fairly prominent figure - it should be easy to find references that actually support this claim. We should also distinguish between being discredited by the press and being discredited by academia esp. historians i.e. Irving's peers. It is perfectly possible that he is hated by his academic peers for his Holocaust denial etc. but still respected for his work on non-Holocaust related history. I'm no fan of Irving's but I am a fan of proper referencing on Wikipedia (so often references don't support claims made....and people investigate less often because often they see the reference footnote number and just move on). 76.171.0.166 05:27, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
This is an easy claim to support. While some editors may disagree as to whether Mr Irving's reputation as an historian should have been discredited, the adjective relates not to the substance of his work but to its public reception (which is to say, reputation), which has indeed been widely discredited and which the article supports with many citations. As to the substance of his work, throughout 4 decades Irving managed to unearth many interesting primary sources on the Nazis (often by befriending key people) and IMHO subsequently either lost his objectivity or somewhere along the way decided to deliberately put a pro-Nazi spin on his work, which ultimately landed him in prison (putting aside any free speech concerns, of which there are many). Calling this man discredited as an historian is to put it mildly. My take is, he has more or less tried to pick up where Josef Goebbels left off. I guess some folks think this has been helpful. I don't think it has, but whatever: His exit from scholarship is widely supported, not a controversial thing to assert and the article should say as much. Gwen Gale ( talk) 11:46, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
- - Someone removed my objection tag to the poor referencing of "discredited" without, I assume, reading my comments above. Let me state again that I *have no opinion* as to whether Irving is actually widely discredited or not as a historian. I just want there to be a proper reference!! The editor who removed my tag commented that "Discredited" is clearly true. The alternative to listing it as fact is to remove all indications that he was ever considered an historian. Reverting anon." If "discredited" (as in currently and widely, not just by one newspaper in 1969(!) - and in the wider public sphere as well as academia (these may be differently treated) is "clearly true" than we should be able to discover much better references than the one given, which does not support the idea that Irving is widely or clearly discredited today. The "alternative" I assume ironically suggested seems to suggest that the editor thinks 1) the main purpose of the article is to ensure that Irving is not seen as a proper historian (I thought Wikipedia was primarily about referenced, verified, NPOV encyclopedia articles?) and 2) references don't matter so long if they get in the way of how we want to shape the article. Also, I am dismissed as an "anon". So much for Wikipedia's openness. I was actually a very active editor for 2 years with a registered account, and I never outright dismissed an anon who had a reasonable edit/objection. One of the main reasons I left Wikipedia was frustration over careless referencing. Occassionally I'll tinker with an article as an anon these days, but perhaps that's futile as well. 76.171.0.166 18:24, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
http://comment.independent.co.uk/commentators/article347567.ece
I now think that the citation from Bernard Ingrams piece in the Independent should be removed entirely as an inappropriate source - this is an opinion column piece not a news article (its not hard to tell the difference!). Furthermore, immediately after the excerpt used in the Wikipedia article, Ingrams comments that people had not adhered to the memo and that Irving is still currently referred generally to as a historian (though that he has recently lost the support of academic peers) i.e. The point of this piece (again, a opinion piece, not a news article ) is that Ingrams *wishes* Irving was more discredited, and that Irving is still widely (at least in Ingrams' opinion) treated as a genuine historian, though Ingrams strongly disapproves of this. So, basically we have one opinion of one columnist who has an anecdote from 1969 for one newspaper which suggests something opposite to the key claim of the Wikiepdia article. 76.171.0.166 18:39, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
Irving's early books got positive reviews from scholars. Germany between 1933 and 1945 was a much more complicated place than some readers realize. Irving's later books, however, have demonstrably mis-represented his sources. Somewhere along the way, Mr Irving stopped being an historian, even a biased one (which many/most are anyway) and strayed afar into straight advocacy for the legacy of Adolf Hitler. The thing is, seeing as Hitler had more or less absolute political and military fiat during the period of the industrial genocide of the Holocaust, it's overwhelmingly likely he personally ordered Himmler and Heydrich to implement it, with the records having been burned or otherwise disposed of in 1945. If Hitler was ignorant of their activities, as Irving (and Hitler's half sister Angela claimed), given his administrative power in Germany at the time this would amount to criminal negligence anyway. Some folks get more emotional about Mr Irving than others but either way, advocating a positive legacy for Adolf Hitler, who tried to conquer half the world with a totalitarian government and left Germany in ruins, is, erm, kinda dodgy. Gwen Gale ( talk) 12:00, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
I propose this article be moved to David Irving (writer) since there are at least two other WP articles about David Irvings. Please comment. Gwen Gale ( talk) 15:21, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
This article uses both "a historian" and "an historian". I noticed that user:Jayjg changed some "an"s to "a"s a couple of days back on grounds of language variety, but mistakenly ignored the fact that Irving is British. However, usage still seems to be inconsistent in the article and is complicated by the fact that there are quotations using both forms which shouldn't be changed. Which form do people think we should use in our own tect? Personally, even as a Brit, I find "an historian" and "an hotel" rather pedantic. -- Peter cohen ( talk) 12:52, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
that this man is sitting in prison for downplaying or trivialising the holocaust hoax is an outrage. america should be speaking out against this gross and vulgar attack on free speech. but no, that would offend the zionists that control american media and government.
Here is a sample:
Academic reviews of The Mare’s Nest (1967)
“Irving’s prodigious research, his meticulous attention to accuracy, his remarkable clarity in explaining technical developments, and his judicious evaluations are combined in what is truly an exceptional book. It is invaluable to students interested in the broader problems of the acquisition and use of scientific and technical intelligence, the determination of priorities in weapons systems, and the relationship of science and scientists to government.”
Clarence G. Lasby
Assistant Professor, History
University of Texas
Technology and Culture, Vol. 8, No. 3. (Jul., 1967), pp. 429-431. (Technology and Culture is currently published by The Johns Hopkins University Press.)
“Yet Cherwill still held out, and a phrase he then used, ‘At the end of the war when we know the full story, we should find that the rocket was a “mare’s nest,”’ provides the title for David Irving’s scholarly and thoroughgoing history of the V1, the V2, and the British counter-measures.”
Ronald Lewin
International Affairs (Royal Institute of International Affairs 1944-), Vol. 41, No. 3. (Jul., 1965), pp. 490-500. (International Affairs (Royal Institute of International Affairs 1944-) is currently published by Royal Institute of International Affairs.)
“On the cost and effectiveness of the V-2 military contribution, historians should not discard David Irving’s The Mare’s Nest (1964) or Albert Speer’s memoirs and diary, or R.V. Jones’s The Wizard War and Dornberger’s V-2.”
Eugene M. Emme
Historian
Air University, OCDM, and NASA
Technology and Culture, Vol. 22, No. 2. (Apr., 1981), pp. 343-345.
Academic reviews of The Virus House (1968)
“While the research is impressive and the style interesting, [Irving’s] book has two serious faults: the absence of footnote citations will make following Irving’s work much more difficult, and the descriptions of scientific principles and technical processes are sometimes unclear. The chief merit of the Virus House is that it provides are more detailed insight into the German nuclear project than has hitherto been available, and this outweighs the faults.”
John V. Flynn
Historian
US Atomic Energy Commission
Technology and Culture, Vol. 9, No. 2. (Apr., 1968), pp. 243-245.
“A quite different resource for the historian is Atomic Bomb Scientists: Memoirs, 1939-1945, a series of six microfiches reproducing interviews conducted by Joseph J. Ermenc with Lew Kowarski, Aristid von Grosse, Werner Heisenberg, Paul Harteck, […..]. The series focuses on the rivalry between the German and the American atomic bomb efforts and supplements their reminisces with chronologies of their careers and indexes of their interviews. The views articulated here by German participants on the German project are striking, but not widely at variance with those expressed in David Irving’s The Virus House.”
Robert Seidel
Historian
Bradbury Science Museum
Los Alamos National Laboratory
Isis, Vol. 81, No. 3. (Sep., 1990), pp. 519-537. (Isis is currently published by The University of Chicago Press.)
“The fascinating book was published in London in 1967 (by Kimber) as the Virus House: Germany’s Atomic Research and Allied Counter-Measures. The incredible story it tells is fascinating in the extreme, especially to all who worked in the Manhattan District.”
W. F. Libby
Department of Chemistry
University of California, Los Angeles
Science, “How did it happen that it didn’t happen?,” New Series, Vol. 160, No. 3824. (Apr. 12, 1968), p. 175. (Science is currently published by American Association for the Advancement of Science.)
Academic reviews of The Rise and Fall of the Luftwaffe: The Life of Erhard Milch
“Second World War history is coming of age. This fact makes David Irving’s most recent enterprise all the more welcome. Irving’s biography of Erhard Milch must rank as a major contribution not only because it makes use of hitherto unused archival material but because it helps to give a solidly documented background to some major aspects of the military and political history of Nazi Germany. These points are perhaps worth stressing. Very little of the work of the Third Reich is based on original, unpublished source material. Irving has made full use of the collections that have recently been returned to West Germany, though some still remain unused…[Irving’s book] is a welcome and well-researched addition to the history of the Third Reich rather than a reference book for aircraft buffs.”
R. J. Overy
Historian, Queen’s College
University of Cambridge
The Historical Journal, Vol. 18, No. 4. (Dec., 1975), pp. 902-904. (The Historical Journal is currently published by Cambridge University Press.)
Academic reviews of Hitler’s War
“The primary value of [John Toland’s Adolf Hitler and David Irving’s Hitler’s War ], aside from temporarily slaking the general thirst for Hiteriana, is as resource material for professional historians. Toland and Irving are prodigious researchers, willing and able to do the legwork and eyework necessary to run down the ever shrinking pool of witnesses and ever growing fund of documents. Irving even visited the ruins of Hitler’s Wolfsschanze at Rastenburg in what is now part of Poland and utilized a magnetometer in a vain search for a bottleful of documents allegedly buried by Goebbels.”
Geoffrey Cocks
Historian
Albion College
Political Psychology, Vol. 1, No. 2. (Autumn, 1979), pp. 67-81. (Political Psychology is currently published by International Society of Political Psychology.)
“The most valuable of books in this category, however, in my view, is one that has been called "the autobiography Hitler did not write" -- David Irving's Hitler's War. Irving is a controversial figure, an Englishman who has identified with the German war experience to a remarkable degree, who has offered a cash award to anyone producing written evidence of Hitler's authorisation of the "Final Solution," and who currently champions extreme right-wing politics in Europe. Nevertheless, he is a historian of formidable powers, having worked in all the major German archives, discovered important deposits of papers himself, and interviewed many of the survivors of their families and intimates.”
John Keegan
Military Historian
The Battle for History: Refighting World War Two (Hutchinson, London, 1996)
Academic reviews of The Trail of the Fox (1977)
“After his controversial Hitler’s War, David Irving has taken up the elusive trail of Hitler’s favorite general, Field Marshal Rommel, around whose daring command of the 7th Panzer ‘Spook’ Division in France and the Africa Corps in Libya and Egypt have been woven military legend and movie drama. Irving’s contribution is to extricate Rommel from the legend, providing a welcome addition to the literature of World War II. Extensive use of American and European archives, the tracking down and deciphering of a lost portion of Rommel’s military diary for 1941, and assiduous interviewing allow Irving to get much closer to the fugacious Field Marshal than the many who have followed the same trail…Irving’s assessments of the military Rommel are not likely soon to be revised.”
Karl A. Schleunes
Historian
University of North Carolina
German Studies Review, Vol. 1, No. 1. (Feb., 1978), p. 96. (German Studies Review is currently published by German Studies Association.)
“The life of Erwin Rommel will appear to those familiar with earlier writings of David Irving to follow much the same pattern. It is another example of extraordinary enterprise and ingenuity in fettering out material others have overlooked or have resigned themselves to do without. His success here is as dazzling as in Hitler’s War. There is also much brilliant writing, his works which also left something to be wished for stylistically, have gained steadily in sparkle and polish…Despite the controversial character of some of Irving’s positions, which invites other interpretations, his work thus gains a certain definitive character. Aspiring biographers who are less well equipped with personally-discovered material will perforce hesitate to follow The Trail of the Fox.”
Harold C. Deutsch
Historian
U.S. Army War College
The American Historical Review, Vol. 83, No. 3. (Jun., 1978), p. 758. (The American Historical Review is currently published by American Historical Association.)
“For more balanced accounts of Rommel’s military career than the Mitchum volume, the reader should look to Ronald Lewin’s Rommel as Military Commander and his The Life and Death of the Afrika Korps, and to Wolf Heckman’s Rommel’s War in Africa. David Irving’s The Trail of the Fox, though perhaps not always fair to Rommel, discusses the dark side of Rommel’s genius.”
Larry H. Addington
Historian
The Citadel
Military Affairs, Vol. 49, No. 1. (Jan., 1985), p. 44. (Military Affairs is currently published by Society for Military History.)
Journalistic reviews of The Trail of the Fox
“English historian David Irving, whose controversial "Hitler's War" was published earlier this year, has gone after this glamour-encrusted figure with the zeal of an investigative reporter, tracking down dusty letters and records on two continents and interviewing virtually every principal who survived. The result is both a thrilling read and a sober portrait of the superhero as a bundle of human contradictions - ruthless and humane, vainglorious and selfless, manic and depressive. We get the whole story through Rommel's eyes, and the worldwide convulsion of which his campaigns were only a part remains shadowy and distant. The man himself is given to us in impressive detail, without any superstructural thesis or indeed much attention to the patterns that emerge.”
Richard Boeth
Journalist, Newsweek
United States Edition, The Arts: Books, October 31, 1977, Pg. 10
General kudos for Irving’s work by other professional historians and academics
“[Gerhard L. Weinberg’s The Foreign Policy of Hitler’s Germany: Starting World War II, 1937-1939] cannot compare with the recent monograph by Messerschmidt and Deist, which gives due attention to the economic and military context. Furthermore, it would seem that a study that relies primarily on diplomatic documents cannot adequately explain Hitler’s policies. Hitler did not trust the professional diplomats. He conferred with a few close advisers, employed private emissaries to carry out policy, and encouraged party organizations to dabble in foreign affairs. Such unorthodox methods produced their own sources, and these usually end up not in public but in private archives. Studies like David Irving’s that have used such sources show that they can be significant.”
Christoph M. Kimmich
Historian
Brooklyn College, City University of New York
Political Science Quarterly, Vol. 96, No. 3. (Autumn, 1981), pp. 524-525. (Political Science Quarterly is currently published by The Academy of Political Science.)
First, I want to apologize for the length of this section, but rather than being bold and just re-writing the whole section on my own, I thought that it would be appropriate to document first exactly why I have a serious problem with the following sentence that I deleted from the main article: "Although Irving's works were generally ignored by academics, and sometimes criticised as inaccurate when reviewed by specialists, his command of language and a wealth of anecdotes led generalists to write favourable reviews in the popular press, and many of his works sold well. He was particularly noted for his mastery of the voluminous and scattered German war records." This sentence provoked me to research the academic reviews of Irving's works from 1967 to 1977 (not just the popular press). Before the publication of Hitler's War, the reviews by academics and historians were unquestionably positive. This leads me to believe that we should probably re-write the entire section entitled "Historian" to accurately reflect what the source materials from the period actually said. From the looks of it now, it ironically reads like a bit of revisionist history in its own right. What do other editors think? J Readings ( talk) 23:57, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Enough with the cuteness. Here you have reliable citations - that are even the truth, a wiki first maybe. "Original research" - in what way can even wiki call quotes from major historians and book reviewers Original Research. We have wiki editors who have finally got what was asked/challenged for - now what is going to be done with it. ( I suggest ad hominem attacks - against the reviewers et al or the guy who looked them up )must....try....to...resist....why —Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.105.80.141 ( talk) 19:40, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Good luck to you, J Reading, but I wouldn't expect the cabal of politicised editors who control David Irving's page to allow any more than the tiniest changes. I, and many others, have tried in the past to establish a balanced view, but each attempt is seen off, by the same editors, with reference to a non-existent consensus and polite threats of blocking. For some reason the encyclopaedic Wikipedia fails when it comes to biographies of living people perceived to have right-of-centre political views. Check out Kelvin MacKenzie's article for another example, or Richard Littlejohn's. 217.44.79.183 ( talk) 07:41, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Regarding the offer of Irving to pay $1000 to anyone who could produce a document showing that Hitler ordered the mass killing of Jews, it is written: "and for decades afterward as a publicity stunt offered to pay £1000 to anyone who could find such an order." There is no reason for "as a publicity stunt" to be included. That is conjecture, and blatant bias. Marcel.
Thanks for posting these review excerpts. The main "consensus" that I see regarding David Irving is that he is second to none in the military history of the Third Reich. It's amusing to see that he has magically ceased to be a "historian" based on four cited opinions, none of which back their claims. David A. Flory ( talk) 09:30, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
RE: $1000 reward offer - for a NPOV you could insert at the end of "publicity stunt" the observation that "noone has been able to collect the reward due to the lack of being able to come up with a document connecting Hitler ( or anyone? ) with mass killings". Is the article hoping that Irving doesn't have $1000, if so I will gladly pay the $1000 ( and sell it for several 1000s or 1000000s the same day ) - just notify me on this site if you find it.
159.105.80.141 (
talk) 12:09, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
"Bad faith?" - thanks for the restoration of a comment that people of good faith don't seem to like( I didn't even know it had taken a short vacation). Ignoring - erasing/censoring comments doesn't make up for anything but excuses for the lack of documentation. Just to show good faith I will let the commentors know that there are several documents - Irving found at least one of them - that fairly definitively show that Hitler had no plans for exterminating anyone ( wellll he didn't like commies, a fault that many deniers share ( ps not me)). Schlegelberger's memo ( not the ones in the article ). a Martin Luther, and I believe from memory that there are a few others. I misworded my statement - I thought that $1000 was for the purchase of the memo - later I realised ( purpose of this visit ) that no memo from Hitler would only be worth $1000, a memo showing Hitler okayed the holocaust ( or even knew about it) would be up for auction at many times my lifetime cumulative earnings. I repeat, however, that "publicity stunt" should be follwed by the admission that no takers of his money as of yet - I'm betting his money is safe( if not and Irving can't pay I will send the finder ( not a forgery please) a $1000 myself( I think my $1000 is the safest $1000 in history). .... The reason noone has made a claim is that noone has found a memo period. Find the memo then make the claim he wouldn't pay up - it's the believers' turn at bat on this one. The memos that point away from Hitler and a holocaust were not out in plain sight ( years of scholrship and luck were involved). If holocaust believers are/have any scholars ( in good faith I will assume they do have such people and many more than Irving's crowd) then they should work harder ( demand and read the archives for a starter) - the German records and the forensic possibilities are extremely large. The deniers biggest pschological weapon is that they see that the believers don't seem to really believe(censorship/muscle/etc. is the sign of a lost argument not a victory - the boy who controls the microphone isn't really the winner
159.105.80.141 (
talk) 13:48, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
Concerning this:
The sources are Watt's own essay in the Evening Standard. I think this is clearly a reliable source for Watt's views. I do not think they are a reliable source for the NYT survey which is of course public record. I think the truly reliable source on an NYT survey is the appropriate NYT article, and we should find and use that as the source. If the Weekely Standard is the source, we should restrict it to Watt's views which are of course relevant to the article. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:59, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
The Harteck Process needs some one how kows what of the stuff is fictional. Most of the nuclear program is well documented, but enrichment of uranium in germany sounds ulikely.-- Stone ( talk) 22:14, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
The Germans disagree as to whether intention or inexperience was responsible for the failure to build a bomb. Paul Harteck, the driving force behind much of the far-sighted research on the German atomic project during the war years, who had worked with industry and knew the scale of effort required to build a bomb, attributes the failure of the project Heisenberg’s and Carl Friedrich von Weizsacker’s lack of prior involvement in large experiment ventures. The chemistry and the technology were more complicated than the physics, Harteck says, and therefore Heisenberg was more a hindrance than a help. Robert Seidel, Isis, Vol. 81, No. 3. (Sep., 1990), pp. 519-537.
Figured this might be controversial; Currently the infobox lists his occupation as World War II military history writer, after reading the article I think it would be more appropriate to list it as Revisionist World War II military history writer Is there any opposition? Anynobody 02:04, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Good question, I would say he falls into the latter, as there is a sub category for his views: Historical revisionism (negationism)#Holocaust denial. Anynobody 06:11, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
The reason I propose this is because both sides of the argument seem to agree on his revisionist stance;
Irving is listed on IHR and was
Openly called a Holocaust denier by the BBC more than once including in
its profile about him.
In short we have a choice between:
Who doesn't call him a revisionist (a nice way of saying Holocaust denier) since he lost the libel case? Bear in mind that WP:NPOV is determined by the sources, if they all say a person is a Holocaust denier we're obliged to do so as well otherwise not only are we violating NPOV but are also engaging in original research. It seems like the referenced position is stronger. Anynobody 04:10, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
PS: J Readings I don't mean to sidestep your point about on which category Irving falls from the inception of his work in the 1960s until today, but it's not really relevant. The truth is it, the infobox, requires current information. We're not talking about his reputation in 196x, currently he is known as a revisionist. Anynobody 04:16, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Fair point by
Anynobody that the infobox should only use current information.
Anynobody cites two examples of publications that support his point. In order to be rigorous, I checked
LexisNexis. I wanted to see how the media identify David Irving over the past 5 years (April 2003 to April 2008).
Mentioned keyword results (anywhere in article):
"historian David Irving": 1274 articles.
"British historian David Irving": 659 articles.
"discredited historian David Irving": 16 articles
"historian David Irving, who...": 129 articles.
"historian David Irving, who defends Hitler": 2 articles
"revisionist David Irving": 83 articles
"revisionist historian David Irving": 73 articles
"British revisionist David Irving": 1 article
"Historical revisionist David Irving": 3 articles
"Holocaust revisionist David Irving": 76 articles
"British Holocaust revisionist David Irving": 8 articles
"Holocaust denier David Irving": 538 articles
"British Holocaust denier David Irving": 61 articles
"British Holocaust historian David Irving": 1 article
"British writer David Irving": 32 articles
"controversial writer David Irving": 4 articles
"Holocaust writer David Irving": 0 articles
"widely discredited writer David Irving": 0 articles
"fraudulent historian David Irving": 0 articles
"discredited writer David Irving": 0 articles
The above results show how journalists identify David Irving in their articles over the past five years. The majority of articles either refer to him as a historian, a British historian or a Holocaust denier--with the majority of articles on the former. There is a small minority of articles identifying him as a "revisionist" calling into question such things as undue weight being applied to this article in a POV fashion if we were to label him as a revisionist, I imagine. That said, I've avoided revisiting the "historian" issue because I respect consensus (even if I disagree) and I'm busy with other things. Incidentally, I found no evidence to support the claim that Irving is identified as a "fraudulent historian," either. Mine is obviously not the last word on the subject, but it is a start in the right direction. Simply, the journalists found on LexisNexis over the past 5 five years apparently do not identify him as "fraudulent" in the reliable third-party media. I encourage people to cross-check my results. I'm not looking to bamboozle anyone. Regards, J Readings ( talk) 08:50, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
For that reason, I prefer to use ... when doing these types of searches. With all due respect, really, I think you've missed my point which is that search results aren't a source in and of themselves. (We can't cite a search in the text.) I know going through results can be a pain in the arse*, but the proper way to add information here is through
specific sources which can be
verified. Indeed there is no rush, but on the other hand if several sources can be cited which describe him as a denier/revisionist there really doesn't seem to be any point in waiting either as the text can change anytime a new source is found.
*(Part of the hassle are results which include my search string but only mention the subject in passing or in a different way or unexpected way. For example some results in the "historian David Irving" precede those words with "revisionist", "disgraced", or "Nazi" meaning were I out to prove he is a valid historian those results would be unhelpful even though they contain what I searched for.)
Anynobody 04:04, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
To address your concerns;
undue weight I really don't see how this applies considering 1) his status as a Holocaust denier is a major factor of his notability and 2) all the
WP:RS,
WP:V sources I've seen at least mention it.
original synthesis to advance a position As I said above, it's an assertion made by all the sources I've seen so no synthesis is necessary. If one can say The BBC called David Irving a Holocaust denier then that person is simply repeating a position not creating it.
You also appear to be misunderstanding the idea of
consensus here, on issues where a choice between two or more solutions which abide by our
rules indeed the consensus rules. However a consensus can't be used as a justification to violate policy like
WP:NPOV (that'd be mob rule). The simple fact is that with so many sources calling him a Holocaust denier (as a historian) if we do not then we've essentially taken a stand in favor of Irving which is not neutrality as Wikipedia defines it. (Moreover, without a source, calling him a "historian" is also
original research on our part.)
Anynobody 07:59, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
You can add unsavoury Right-wing author David Irving, according to the Daily Telegraph today (surely a friendly fire incident). On a more serious note, the article could do with distinguishing between his reputation in the UK and his reputation abroad. I suspect that most of the "British historian David Irving" hits were from non-UK newspapers who needed to summarise Irving for their readership; a British newspaper certainly wouldn't decribe him as a "British historian". Presumably he would only be featured in non-UK newspapers on account of his imprisonment, his poor reputation etc, as he is non-notable outside the UK for anything else. In the UK he is, or at least was, notable as a perpeturally unsuccessful litigant and historical writer in addition to his controversial views. - Ashley Pomeroy ( talk) 18:13, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
[4]. Not notable of course, but can be used as evidence for establishing the notability of other facts - the 1970 libel case should perhaps get some more space here.-- Paul Pieniezny ( talk) 08:45, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
A number of editors have been changing "widely considered to be discredited[2: 26 separate references]" to "has been discredited by historians such as Deborah Lipstadt.[2]" This is wrong. Not all the references refer directly to Lipstadt, and I'm not convinced that all of them refer indirectly to Lipstadt or the court case.
For talk page history, see (among others):
I don't see any reason to revisit, unless we want to split reference 2 into the 24-26 individual references. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 13:08, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Separately, I've actually read the lengthy Hitler's war (2002 edition) last week, out of curiosity. Where the article reads:
... I'd have to say that there is also an amount of material criticizing many aspects of Hitler's management of political and military matters. There are numerous unflattering references (e.g. speaking in "guttural Hitler-German") and if anything it portrays him frequently as a cynical, manipulative opportunist and gambler. Maybe the text has altered considerably between the 1977 and 2002 editions? IMHO discredited as a war historian, no; discredited for not making the link to Hitler's inspiration of the holocaust, in the absence of a signed and dated order, yes. Irving's style is largely to present his chosen facts and let the reader analyse the moral / practical aspects. A good read but I'd prefer John Keegan any day. 86.42.219.131 ( talk) 10:44, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
If anyone can point me to information about links between David Irving and Kimberley Cornish, author of The Jew of Linz, please reply on my talk page. In particular, would appreciate information on any statements made by Richard J. Evans about Cornish.-- Number17 ( talk) 22:45, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
There were two links in The Jew of Linz though they may not have included Evans. One showed a letter from Cornish on Irving's own site; but they seem to have gone from the article. Jonathan Cardy ( talk) 16:21, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
Thank you... Yes, I had to delete the section titled "The author", because Wikipedia puts author info into separate articles (just found out about this today.) However, I will be able to use only well-sourced info. A blog, for example, would not count as such. Hence my plea for well-documented information. By the way, nice job tidying up the formatting and spelling today, I will to learn from this :-).-- Number17 ( talk) 16:50, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
Though Hochhuth's support of Irving is an important aspect of Hochhuth's biography, is it at all an important aspect of Irving's? It seems over-represented here. -- jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 05:07, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Given that the history of this article appears to continue a pointed (if slomo) reversion to US spelling, and the use of the word "automobile", would I be correct in anticipating that some editors will argue that David Irving is not a "topic that has strong ties to a particular English-speaking nation"? Alai ( talk) 03:26, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
David Irving was interviewed by Norwegian national channel NRK, it was broadcast in todays news. Well, among the things he said were that Auschwitz was as real as Disneyland is (i.e. that Auschwitz is just staged and the gaschambers being fake and whatnot). I couldn't find a reference to it online, but if someone is able to find it maybe this should be added in the article... Gabagool ( talk) 18:02, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
"Under Nazi occupation Hungary began deporting the provincial Jews to the extermination camps, while those in Budapest itself were herded into labour camps. Only about two hundred thousand Jews survived the war, and they understandably greeted the Soviet army as liberators, a posture which only fuelled the flames of the public’s historic anti-Semitism." [my italics]
Ϣere Spiel Chequers 14:42, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
David Irving in an interview on Youtube denies that he is an Anti-Semite. His lawyer was a jew, so was his publisher. he said they are perfectly ordinary and decent people once you get to know them. this is a defamatory thing to say about this man
here is the interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQ9wiWjvwkQ
Bannedtruth ( talk) 19:35, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
what better source than the man himself? would a member of the KKK who hated Blacks hire one to be his attorney? Bannedtruth ( talk) 19:46, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
holocaust questioners(deniers,revisionists) are NOT antisemites. They are labelled this by jews. i am seriously qeustioning the shoah,and judging from a lot of web research so are many more peoplle who previously believed GASSINGS TOOK PLACE IN THESE WORK CAMPS. THERE WERE NO GASSINGS.i will be submiting a list on the wiki deniers site where i will list reasons wich QUESTION why the holocaust needs REVISION Dwnndog ( talk) 19:20, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
I couldn't see any good reason to keep this material so I removed it. Maybe a mention could return but not a whole section. -- John ( talk) 15:18, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Closing this discussion per WP:SNOW with the decision to keep the title of this article as it currently exists. Moreover, this was a ridiculous suggestion to make to begin with, intended only to inflame an already volatile situation. See also: WP:NCR. Trusilver 17:49, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
many contributors are no up to a standard that leads to the production of useful documents. this wiki article reflects a witch hunt mentality which is expressed through weasel words, inaccuracies, bias toward the generally accepted norm. the examination of commonly accepted notions is part of critical thinking, the scientific method and the accurate piecing together of history fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.49.113.189 ( talk) 21:11, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
I am freezing edits until we can discuss what should go in the infobox. Right now it says " Holocaust denial. Another editor wants to put just "WWII military history". I would be okay with revisionist history, but not this obfuscation. We need to discuss this to prevent edit warring. - CobaltBlueTony™ talk 17:53, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
If a person is best known for A and also for B, what is wrong with writing, "Known for A, B". It is generally understood that the first item in an enumeration is the most important one. I would see nothing wrong with stating that Irving is "Known for Holocaust Denial, WW II history."-- Goodmorningworld ( talk) 14:19, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
David Irving has written 30 books since the 1960s. Some of the them are very famous and were international best sellers. He has not written a single book that is primarily concerned with the holocaust, nor has he done any significant research on the topic. As stated by Irving himself in 2006, he is "not an expert on the holocaust". On the same occasion, he also stated that "The Nazis did murder millions of Jews". Please explain how "The Nazis did murder millions of Jews" is "holocaust denial". Gramsf ( talk) 13:30, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
( Karpaten1 ( talk) 03:37, 6 January 2009 (UTC)) The Dresden numbers of victims are a bit more complex. Irving was not wrong AT THE TIME, and even today, the 25,000 smack of political accounting a la Great Soviet Encyclopedia. In Germany, modern history is not just history, but reeducation. For more details, http://www.bombenkrieg.net/dresden2.htm
The result of the proposal was No consensus for move. Closed early by request. Not sure who closed it, but not worth finding out.
199.125.109.102 (
talk) 06:27, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
Speedy decline. Closed early by
Trusilver on November 26, 2008. --
Goodmorningworld (
talk) 14:27, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
The proposal was to rename as "Criticism of David Irving". 199.125.109.102 ( talk) 06:27, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
I've added the "verylong" template and two "needs sub-sections" templates. At currently 160KB+ in length, the Article is too long to be read comfortably in one sitting. Also, at least the two sections tagged by me are long expanses of text with only paragraph breaks; they need extra sub-section headings or they should be cut down in length. I have not been one of the Article's principal author-editors, and so I think they should be given the opportunity first to perform the size reduction and reformating in line with what they think is best.-- Goodmorningworld ( talk) 03:07, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
The blunt and hard fact is much what Irving writes about these subjects are not only nonsense, but highly malicious and tendentious nonsense. I don’t mean to sound elitist here (please trust me when I say I am a most humble person), but as someone with some familiarity with the period under question, I am struck by the extraordinarily disingenuous way in which Irving misinterprets history. To take an easy example of what I am talking about, let’s consider Irving’s publicity stunt offer to pay £ 1, 000 to the first person who find the written Führerbefehl (Fuhrer Order) for the Holocaust. This offer, which Irving has repeatedly made since 1977 is nothing than a cheap publicity stunt for the very simple reason that it is 99.99% certain that such a order was not committed to writing. However, most people are not aware of that, and simply assume there was a written order from Hitler for “Final Solution”, so when Irving goes up to various historians under the hot light of the television cameras, waves about £ 1, 000, and says he will pay that amount if the historian in question can find such an order, Irving is simply trading on popular ignorance to score a point.
I don’t think Irving is a stupid man (through I have some doubts about his mental stability, but that is another question), and assuming of course that Irving does indeed possessed the unrivalled knowledge of the Third Reich that he is so fond of claiming, than he must know that there was never a written Führerbefehl for the Holocaust. There are the following reasons against the existence of a written Führer Order. First, historians have searched far and wide for a written Führerbefehl since 1945, and nobody has ever found it. Of course, such an order could have been destroyed, but that seems unlikely. There is plenty of documentary evidence implicating Himmler, Göring and other top Nazi leaders in the Holocaust, and it seems strange that if the Nazi leaders were destroying evidence implicating Hitler in the Holocaust that they somehow forget to destroy the documents implicating themselves. Second, in all of the voluminous documentation relating to the Holocaust, there is not one single reference to any sort of written order from Hitler. Third, hardly any of the Nazi leaders who were brought to trial ever mentioned a written order from Hitler, which is odd considering that the usual defence was that they were just following orders. Instead of a written order, almost always the defendants spoke of an unwritten order from Hitler. It strikes me as odd that men on trial for their lives and who were using the defence of just following orders would neglect to speak of a written order, assuming that one existed. There are two and half exceptions to this, and there are good reasons for suspecting that the defendants were lying.
The first was the trial of the Einsatzgruppen commanders before an American military court in 1947, who claimed to have received a written order from Hitler before Operation Barbarossa ordering them to massacre Soviet Jews, but it has been established quite conclusively that these gentlemen were committing perjury in making that claim. The proof in the pudding about the case of the Einsatzgruppen lies in the written draft orders given to them by Heydrich before Barbarossa, which order them to encourage pogroms against Jews, but say nothing about murdering every single Jewish men, women and child. Indeed, initally the Einsatzgruppen, through involved in immense anti-Jewish violence from June 22nd, 1941 onwards did not seek to exterminate every single Jew they came across. That only started in the late summer-fall of 1941. The reasons for why the change occurred from supporting murderous pogroms in the early summer to a program of genocide by the fall of 41 can probably be better discussed on the Einsatzgruppen page
The second exception was Dieter Wisliceny, who made that claim at this trial in 1947, but again it appear quite likely that Wisliceny was lying about that. The half exception was Hermann Göring, who when he was being interrogated prior to Nuremberg claimed to have seen a written order from Hitler for the Holocaust, but did not repeat that claim when he was on stand during the Nuremberg trials, which is strange given that Göring claimed to be (you guessed it) just following orders. Finally, Hitler disliked writing things down, and always preferred verbal orders to written ones, especially in regards to things that might make him look bad. During all of his 12 years in power, Hitler only ever wrote down one state paper himself, and that was the Four Year Plan Memorandum of August 1936. For an example closer to the field of genocide and mass murder, when Hitler ordered the Action T4 program in January 1939, it was a strictly a verbal command. Not until October 1939 in response to concerns about the program’s directors about the legality of their work, did Hitler reluctantly issue a written order for the T4 program with the false date of September 1, 1939. The people killed under the T4 program were mentally and/or physically disabled Germans, and even then Hitler was most loath to issue a written order, and had to dragged literally kicking and screaming into doing so. Given that the vast majority of the Jews killed in the Holocaust were East European Jews (i.e. not Germans), and the demonical role Jews played in the Nazi imagination, a written from Hitler seems scarcely necessary. I rather strongly suspect that Irving knows all this, but he also knows that most people don’t know this, so he banks on public ignorance to make false and malicious claims about Hitler’s responsibility for the Holocaust by this clever publicity stunt of offering £ 1, 000 to the first person who find the non-existent Fuhrer order.
Given that millions of people use Wikipedia as a source, I am concerned about presenting Irving’s arguments verbatim without any sort of critical discussion. I ran into the same problem in 2007 with while I was working on an article on Irving’s admirer and follow tiller in negationism, namely the anti-Semitic philiosopher Ernst Nolte. Just as a aside here, I can’t put this into the Nolte article as it would constituted original research, but based on my own reading of Nolte’s corpus, when Nolte criticizes Zionism and Israel, he is clearly using the terms Zionist, Israeli, Zionism and Israel as a synonym for Jews. But all that can be better discussed on the page on Nolte. For the sake of fairness as noted above, a good article should require a summary of the subject’s views. But given the nature of Irving’s views (or Nolte’s for that matter, through he is a Holocaust justifier rather then a denier), that could place one into a position of unwillingly serving as a propagandist for Holocaust denial, which not something I want to do nor this is something for which Wikipedia is for. Nor will the claim that there are two sides to the argument do. In some historical issues, such an approach might work, and indeed given the hotly contested nature of some historical disputes is probably called for. But not in regards to the Holocaust because there is only one side to this argument. The evidence that the German state murdered approximately 6 million European Jews is so overwhelming and massive that there can be no doubt to the veracity of the fact that 6 million Jews did die in the Holocaust. To take an approach that says that there are two sides to this issue implicitly gives Holocaust deniers a degree of creditability that they do not deserve. There is only side to this issue, and that is that the Holocaust happened, and the claims of the Holocaust deniers need be taken no more seriously then the claims of the flat earth theorists. Or in other words, the opinions of the Holocaust deniers are irrelevant to any discussion of the Holocaust.
My solution is simply to present Irving’s views, and the views of his critics as offering the best summary of his views without endorsing them in a reasonably NPOV way. I am not going to present the proof of the reality of the Holocaust because I don’t think that is really necessary. Anybody who believes that the Holocaust was faked by the international Jewish conspiracy is either A) an incredible anti-Semitic bigot and/or B) really incredibly stupid. In either case, if one is that stupid and/or are warped by hatred that they believe something like that, then there is nothing one can do for them. But in regards to more subtler things, where the average reader may not have the necessary background knowledge (indeed the very fact that they are using Wikipedia probably indicates that they don’t have that knowledge), I have included the response of Irving’s many critics to let one know what are the real facts of the matter.
Finally, and this is perhaps just a personal opinion. I would really like this article to the best article on Irving anywhere on the Web. I have not quite reached that point (I am about 75% done on this article), but I have brought in a great deal of information from a lot of sources that 99% of the people out there will never consult. There is much here that is properly referenced from good sources that one can’t find anywhere else on the Web, and I would hate to see all this good information lost.
And if there are any Irving fans reading this, I have apparently caught Irving’s bête noire, Richard J. Evans out in a lie. In a 2004 interview in the History Today magazine, Evans said that he little contact with Irving’s writings before his work for Deborah Lipstadt, but Evans’s 1989 book, In Hitler’s Shadow denounces those like Nolte who depend very heavily on Irving as a source for their arguments as using a very dubious source to make in turn very dubious arguments (For the sake of fairness, Evans is quite right on this point). Moreover, In Hitler’s Shadow contains a page long endnote rebutting Irving’s work. Of course, in Evans’s defence, it could be argued that either he forget about In Hitler’s Shadow or that he does not consider a page long endnote to be of much consequence. A very small point, but when starts to dig into the woodwork, one often finds interesting things. And to round off my argument, those really interested in Irving will probably like the article the way it is, as this article presents a detailed (but over-detailed), well referenced account of Irving and his work. Those readers who only a casual interest will simply scan it. -- A.S. Brown ( talk) 00:23, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
Readable prose size | What to do |
> 100 KB | Almost certainly should be divided |
> 60 KB | Probably should be divided (although the scope of a topic can sometimes justify the added reading time) |
> 30 KB | May need to be divided (likelihood goes up with size) |
< 30 KB | Length alone does not justify division |
< 1 KB | If an article or list has remained this size for over a couple of months, consider combining it with a related page. Alternatively, why not fix it by adding more info? See Wikipedia:Stub. |
Returning to the subject of Irving, I feel that a page should capture the fire, not the embers of the past. Ideally, a page should give one an idea of what this person is like. I can’t put this into the page as it constituted a gross violation of the NPOV and the original research rules, but the one characteristic of Irving’s that stands out to me is his narcissism and his attendant love of publicity. Irving is clearly a man in love with himself who just can’t get enough of the spotlight. He is the Paris Hilton of the neo-Nazi scene. Why else does Irving clash other people’s press conferences and lectures other then all the attention it brings him? In all probability, his decision to sue Lipstadt for libel was probably just another of his publicity stunts, albeit one that boomeranged disastrously against him. Moving beyond his publicity-madness, as a general rule one thing I observed in people is that the quality that the lack is the most is usually the quality that they boost about the most. For an example, the people who tell you how smart they are usually not, the people who tell you about honest they are tended to the more dishonest, and the people who tell how hard they work are more often then not the most laziest.
With Irving, please note his schizoid attitudes towards other historians. On one hand, Irving disparages other historians at every opportunity, grandiosely announcing he and he alone knows anything about the Third Reich, and every other historian in that field is just a fool jabbing away in the dark. But on the other hand, Irving is desperate for the approval of the historians whose skills he denounces with such vitriol. Anytime anybody says anything that remotely smacks of praise, Irving seizes upon such statements as a passionate joy as a validation of his own self-worth. Perhaps this is just me, but I would say that we are dealing with a man whose ego is a fragile and insecure one. Which brings us to the next example of Irving’s schizophrenia. Namely, his desire to be taken seriously as a historian while simultaneously engaging in Holocaust denial. It is almost like he is a Jekyll and Hyde brought to life, at one moment, David Irving internationally respected historian and the next moment turning into David Irving leading light of the Holocaust denial lecture circuit without anybody noticing. Of course, the truth is far more sinister then that. It is because Irving was at one time taken seriously as a historian that he is a star of the Holocaust denial movement, conferring upon that spurious idea the slight degree of credibility that his presence brings, and as a historical writer that Irving’s mission is to rehabilitate the Third Reich, washing away all of the blood to make the Nazis look all shiny and clean. In this regard, his remark in the interview with Ron Ronsenbaum that he is tired of associating with anti-Semitic groups full of “cracked people” (his words, not mine), and he wants be accepted by the historians’ community must be understood. It is too bad I can’t include Rosenbaum’s sarcastic response, which is delivered in a manner that is quite funny, namely if you want be accepted by historians, you are going about in an awfully strange way by engaging in Holocaust denial
There are two strands to this article that are linked, but bear separating. The first is Irving the man, and the Irving the pseudo-historian. Of course, there are one and the same, but it is probably worth to treat separately for the moment. Irving the man can be characterized as a crass publicity-hound with a very sharp tongue who frankly likes and admires Hitler. I realize that Irving’s 1992 remark about there being some sort of mystical connection between him and Hitler is perhaps a detail that this article could do without, but I think it captures well the essence of the man. Likewise, I have included a cross-section of Irving’s remarks from the period 1989-1994 denying the Holocaust (these were the years when Irving was most active on the Holocaust denial lecture circuit). In part, I did this because there is a periodic debate that erupts on this talk-page about whatever Irving is a Holocaust denier or not, and I wanted to put a end to this debate by hanging Irving with his own words. Second, Irving has denied the Holocaust numerous times, and for the sake of fairness, I thought it best to include a summary of his case against the Holocaust. I preferred to use quotes from Irving’s own speeches because even through I could summarize his case up in no less then a paragraph, to do so might led legitimacy to his views. Finally, I think it captures the essential nature of the man, namely his crassness, his total lack of any class, his crudeness, his vulgarity, and his bigotry.
Moving on to an evaluation of Irving the historical writer, merely saying he is a Nazi does not discredit him. Being a Nazi may make one an awful human being, but it does not necessarily make one a bad historian. After all, lots of rotten human beings have also been great historians. To take an example, the German medievalist Percy Ernst Schramm was an ardent Nazi before, during and after the Third Reich and who recalled and wrote about Hitler with open admiration in his 1963 book Hitler: The Man and the Military Leader, yet nobody holds it against his scholarship. Even Norman Cantor, who offered an extremely hostile portrayal of Schramm in his book Inventing the Middle Ages says there is nothing wrong with Schramm’s work on the Middle Ages. So to say that Irving is a Nazi may prove that he is a rotten person, but does not necessarily discredit him as a historian. Through it is distasteful to say this, but it is possible to be a good Nazi and a good historian at once. One does discredit Irving as a historian is his rather peculiar way of handling and evaluating sources, which goes up to forgery and the theft, and beyond. It is for this reason that I have included criticism by various historians of Irving’s distinctive historical methodology, which falls well below accepted scholarly standards. And for the sake of fairness, to avoid giving the false impression that all historians are united against Irving, I have included some words of praise for Irving from various historians.
Finally, through Irving has done immense scholarly damage, indeed in the case of the full version of the Goebbels diary discovered in Moscow in 1992, irreplaceable damage, I would argue that the most damage Irving has done is in the ensuring that the right questions can not be asked about Hitler. The popular image of Hitler is that of the ultimate pantomime villain, a sort of Herr Evil in which is the embodiment of evil, and is blatantly evil in a way that nobody can ever possibly be. In this respect and this respect only, Irving is right to challenge the pantomime villain image of Hitler. Of course, in rejecting one false approach, Irving merely substitutes another by arguing that Hitler was not such a bad guy, and sorry about the Jews, but you know Hitler was a really a nice guy. Please note that in saying this, I can no seeking to rehabilitate Hitler. There was something missing to Hitler, namely any sense of compassion or feeling for anybody else, which combined with overwhelming hate and a fanatical adherence to pseudo-scientific, Social Darwinist worldview that saw the “Aryan race” locked into merciless combat with the “Jewish race” led to the crime known as the Holocaust. So yes, Hitler was evil. Having said that, quite a few people and not all them German at the time actually found Hitler be quite a likeable guy, and nothing at all like the Herr Evil image. This is the same point Irving makes, but I would like to drew a different conclusion. The fact that people found Hitler likeable does not excuse the Holocaust, which the conclusion Irving seems to be drawing. This demonical picture of Hitler does serve any useful purpose. Within Germany, it allows for people to engage in apologetics by blaming everything on the “demon” Hitler while the rest of the German people stood around hapless and passive. Outside Germany, it leads either to the same sort of apologetics or else to the racist “nation of demons” theory (a demonical nation produces a demonical leader) championed by such diverse scholars as A. J. P. Taylor and Daniel Goldhagen. The problem with Irving is that having attacked the Herr Evil picture of Hitler, and instead substituted another apologetic picture of Hitler as a great leader doing his best for humanity, is that now anyone who questions the Herr Evil picture gets attacked as being like Irving. Historians are supposed to get at the truth, and Irving has both directly and indirectly created blocks towards getting at the truth.-- A.S. Brown ( talk) 18:01, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
The page isn't quite as big as the raw data would imply. WP:Page size indicates that various material should be discarded from the size calculation. The correct figure is 94K which is big but within the known bounds of pages including FAs.-- Peter cohen ( talk) 23:29, 3 February 2009 (UTC)