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I've added an original research warning to the "Objections and counterarguments" section in regard to the introduction of that section, which currently appears to be a citation-free rant with little connection to the rest of the section. Paul Vernaza ( talk) 05:21, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
This section pretty clearly needs to be revamped. I would propose putting any of the authors objections that are to be taken seriously into a new section titled something like "Plausibility of the Premises of Kalaam Cosmological Argument" (Since it seems to be the Kalaam variety that is being addressed) With two subsections one for each premise. These could futher be split up into criticism/response.
I think its important to include the objections he raises, such as quantum fluctuations undermining the first premise and the claim that something before the big bang could have existed and could have existed for an indefinite amount of time and hence does not require a cause. I think its also important to include responses along the lines of 1) the quantum fluctuations that generate virtual particles (assuming this is the QFs the author is speaking of) in vacuum are not a real example of something coming from nothing as the vacuum is not nothing but an absence of matter, certainly there is still empty space in which the physical laws governing the universe still operate.
As for the second criticism it seems unclear that this pre big bang state that has existed forever without a cause should not be put under the section of "identity of the first cause" since what the author is suggesting is in fact a first cause, just as concluded by the argument. The real question that remains is: why think this is "God" in the way humans tend to conceive of him.
Im going ahead and removing the citation free claims about the majority of philosophers/scientists ect. Morris249 ( talk) 1 December 2011
The following section appears to my uneducated eye to be a synthesized argument.
This section possibly contains
original research. (November 2011) |
The argument, again, in its most common form, is this:
Whatever begins to exist has a cause. The Universe began to exist. Therefore, the Universe had a cause.
Several objections can be raised to the above formulation: First, quantum fluctuations have been observed and seem not to be caused by anything. Thus the first premise of the argument is considered untrue. Secondly, the notion that the "universe began to exist" is highly speculative at best. Proponents of this argument are guessing that the universe began to exist, but this guess is based on nothing other than our ignorance of what happened before the big bang. By definition, we cannot claim that the universe did not exist in some form prior to the big bang, if we have no clue of what happened prior to the big bang. It seems that "The universe began to exist" is an Argument from Ignorance. Thirdly, just like we don't know if the universe began to exist or not, we have no way of knowing whether anything that might have caused the universe, did itself start to exist. Thus, as per the structure of this argument, whatever allegedly "caused" the universe to start existing, is itself predicated on some entity external to itself having caused it. Hence, the question: If God created the universe, what created God? Some would say that nothing created God and that God is infinite in time and has always existed.
If the editor who added it can provide
reliable sources, I would have no objection to re-insertion.
TreacherousWays (
talk) 16:49, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
If we assert that the Big Bang was a quantum event, and knowing that a frequently accepted notion of quantum paradoxes (The Copenhagen interpretation) asserts that the event does not resolve into discrete quantum space from statistical space unless it is observed then we may ask who observed the Big Bang.
If you do not like this question, well then OK. Its turtles all the way down anyway. I guess the search for ontological meaning gets confused with cosmological metaphysics whenever we think about it. This entire article is metaphysics and as such we may spin any theory we like provided is is self consistent. EdEveridge ( talk) 23:22, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
I think that the Big Bang can be said to be an event without requiring it to be a quantum event or invoking the Copenhagen Interpretation. It is quite clear that the Big Bang happened. This does NOT imply "turtles all the way down". Proving conclusively that it is a quantum event is more difficult. Proving that the Copenhagen Interpretation is the correct one has not been done by anyone. Since there are at least 3 interpretations of QM, there may be more that we haven't thought of. Lehasa ( talk) 01:27, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
I've been involved in some recent edits to the "Identity of the first cause" section. Historically, you see, the Aristotelian apparatus taken for granted by medieval philosophers provided a means for making the connection between an unmoved mover and an omnipotent, omniscient, perfect being. So, citing Aquinas' Summa Contra Gentiles, I added a paragraph to that effect to the "Identity of the first cause" section. It was replaced by another user, one apparently as friendly to the cosmological argument as I am, who eliminated the reference to Aquinas and replaced it with a quote from Ganssle. (as an aside, Ganssle doesn't seem to note that Aquinas' proof of God's attributes required the Aristotelian apparatus, which is something that needs to be noted. I'll see if I can find a source for that tidbit, I have a couple books by Edward Feser that might do the trick)
Now, this is an encyclopedia. Anyone who wants the page to be neutral, when they see that someone added something in favor of the cosmological argument (especially in a section devoted to criticisms of it!), will want to add something against it to balance things out. That is an understandable, even admirable, impulse for an editor intent on keeping up the quality of this page to have. I have no problem with that impulse. I don't even have a problem with the addition of some statement from a critic of the cosmological argument to balance out my edit. What I have a problem with is the specific statement that was used in this case.
The statement added was one by Austin Cline. I quote: Another objection is that the argument concludes that a “god” exists, but if so, this god must have a cause (according to the same argument). This leads to an infinite regress of causes (gods) unacceptable to the theist, so most believers make an exception for their god, asserting that it doesn’t need a cause — but there is no obvious reason why this exception cannot be applied to the universe, too. If a god “just is,” why can’t the universe “just be?”
I have no problem with the content of the Cline quote. It's a valid objection to the cosmological argument, especially the unsophisticated forms used by pop apologists. My problem is with its location. It has absolutely nothing to do with questioning the identity of the first cause. As such, it doesn't belong in the section "Identity of the first cause." It just doesn't fit. It makes no sense where it is.
There does seem to be a place where it would fit in, however. That place would be the section immediately above the one I edited: "What caused the first cause?" That section already takes note of Cline's objection, but reduces it to a single sentence, "The problem with arguing for the First Cause's exemption is that it raises the question of why the First Cause is indeed exempt."
My suggestion is this: that the Cline quote be removed from the "Identity of the first cause" section (possibly to be replaced by an on-topic quote from a different critic, or a statement that proving the divine attributes requires an Aristotelian framework), that the one-sentence summary of his position in "What caused the first cause" section be deleted, and that the summary be replaced by the quote itself. Or else, the quote could be placed after the summary. Really, anything that gets the Cline quote to the section it belongs in would improve the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.144.40.240 ( talk) 22:16, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
Everthing that we observe has a beginning, it exists and it has an end. This can be noted symbolically as (0<u<1), where '0' is the beginning, 'u' is the point 'now' in which there is consciousnes of the observer and '1' is the end and the totality of existence. Consciousnee of the observer of his 'self' allows him to observe Nothingness of the duality of the limits of '0' and '1'. However there is no independent Nothingness because there is an observer. But Nothingness does exist as the observer of '0' and '1' and the difference between them because there is no past of (0<u) when 'u' is the identity of '0'. The three elements, those of the beginning, the difference and the end, are the static and invariable identity of one Nothingness and they are the Nothingness. By observing the duality of '0' and '1' the observer creates difference between the two. The difference is located inside the one Nothingness Observation of the duality changes it into four elements. The difference between two and four motivates for the next observation which changes four into eight elements and so on in steps of 2 to power of 'n' parts 1/2 to power of 'n', for all 'n' in (0<n<oo) within the static '1'. The internal dynamism cannot be stoped. KK ( 78.146.73.231 ( talk) 15:53, 13 April 2011 (UTC)). The three elements of the eternal, static, Trinity, namely those of the observer, of that which he observes and of the difference between the two, can each change idividually in itself but not replace each other. When the observer is perfect he is NOthingness of the I and he is identical with himselve as that which he observes. The diference is also Nothingness. The observer, in that state, observes static duality as the reflection of that duality within himself. This creates four elements, two on the inside and two on the outside. By oberving the four elements, motivated by the difference, he creates eight elements and so on, growing as 2 to power 'n' in each new observation for all (0<n<oo). The result is dynamism within the static '1'. KK ( 81.159.57.213 ( talk) 19:50, 8 September 2013 (UTC))
The article currently maintains that "[The] cosmological argument is one of which many Christians, Muslims, Hindus, and other theists all around the world believe gives proof that their version of God does exist as he is the only logical cause of all effects in our universe. Many other philosophers have posited cosmological arguments both before and since Aquinas."
Both of these statements may be literally true, but neither says anything about the status of the Cosmological Argument in modern philosophy nor does the article as a whole seem to. I suspect that the Cosmological Argument has had in philosophy virtually no serious standing for well over a century, that it is generally considered to have been categorically refuted, but I have no citations with which to establish that this is indeed the case (or for that matter that it is not the case). I object also to the way the statements are expressed, which strikes me as implicit POV: 1) "Many Christians" is not necessarily most Christians, and my sense is that reputable theology has long ceased to attempt to prove the existence of God through analytical, logical argument. 2) "Since Aquinas" necessarily means since the thirteenth century. Aquinas died in 1274. It's rather more to the point whether historically significant philosophers have fairly recently (within the last century or so) "posited cosmological arguments". I suspect they have not.
TheScotch (
talk) 09:26, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
The article mistakenly claimed that the "kalam cosmological argument" is simply the syllogism
This is apparently incorrect, at least in the sense given to the term by Craig (i.e. the guy who coined it in 1979). The syllogism is rather Craig's statement of the generic cosmological argument. He then goes on to distinguish three types of justification for the minor premise, "the universe began to exist". It has to be remembered that this was far from uncontroversial until recently (the 1960s, when Big Bang cosmology became mainstream). Based on the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy article, Craig distinguishes three types of arguments intended to support the minor premise:
Now it seems that "kalam cosmological argument" has come to mean simply "cosmological argument" regardless of the distinction of how the minor premise is argued. This is sloppy terminology. I suspect that "the kalam argument" as a term for "the cosmological argument" arose in popular debates on Craig and his critics in the atheist-creationist debate, even when Craig's actual definition of the term was being ignored.
So, for example, if you argue about the nature of causality, you are not discussing the "kalam argument", you are simply discussing the generic cosmological argument. Only when you talk about the point that the universe cannot have a beginning "because -- actual infinites" are you addressing Craig's kalam cosmological argument.
Since in the modern popular debate, both sides (atheists and creationists) agree that the universe had a beginning (thanks to Big Bang cosmology), the need to defend the minor premise has sort of fallen out of the debate, and Craig's typological distinction of cosmological arguments along with it.
My analysis may be wrong, but this is the vibe I picked up from the more confused portions in this article and the one at kalam cosmological argument.
-- dab (𒁳) 11:29, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
I think the article needs more Philiponus and less about contemorary proponents: John Philoponus as a Source of Medieval Islamic and Jewish Proofs of Creation "JSTOR: John Philoponus as a Source of Medieval Islamic and Jewish Proofs of Creation". JSTOR. Retrieved 21 March 2015. J8079s ( talk) 20:30, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
This work was used for citations twice in the article. I think it has been used as a lazy citation. The page cited does not coincide with the article topic, which starts on page 550, not on 233. Also, it looks as if someone has written OR about the topic and used the Macmillan Encyclopedia of Philosophy V2 p 233 as a false citation. I've killed one - one to go. Myrvin ( talk) 14:36, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
This counterargument doesn't add anything to the article (see /info/en/?search=Talk:Cosmological_argument#Counterarguments_in_this_article_are_just_rubbish). Mpdunson ( talk) 20:01, 29 July 2015 (UTC)mpdunson
Can someone please edit this section? I'm sure there is some compromise between removing this section and leaving it as it is. However, I'm not a defender of the "who caused the first cause counter argument. Every point in this counter argument has already been addressed. Is there anything more to the argument? Mpdunson ( talk) 09:42, 30 July 2015 (UTC)mpdunson
Physicist Michio Kaku directly addresses the cosmological argument in his book Hyperspace, saying that it is easily dismissed by the law of conservation of energy and the laws governing molecular physics. He gives an example— "gas molecules may bounce against the walls of a container without requiring anything or anyone to get them moving EXCEPT THE WALLS OF A CONTAINER."
I added the words at the end of phrase
Well that's because if you stop a gas molecule it becomes a solid (though even solids vibrate). If there was no side of the container the gas molecule would just keep going until it hits something. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.243.173.222 ( talk) 19:58, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
The question is which form of the cosmological argument Kaku tries to attacks. Because there is a Problem that, as far as I have read, hasn't yet been adressed in the above example. The movement of the gas molecules are finite and you will not recieve an actual infinite (gas molecules moving) by adding up (finite) movements. "..could move forever, without beginning or end". Well they COULD move forever as an potential infinite - but they can't as an actual infinite. The cosmological argument speaks of an actual finite - the universe - though. Thus I don't see what Kaku brings to the table. Even if we were to look across this point: Then of course the gas molecules could be moving without beginning and without an end and then surely they wouldn't need any cause. It is vitally important to understand the different cosmological arguments though! Kaku's argument does nothing for instance to the Kalam cosmological argument as formulated by William Lane Craig, as his form of argument is that the universe actually HAD a beginning. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
78.187.235.79 (
talk) 20:43, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
Calling counterarguments rubbish is formally poor argumentation. Attempting to say there is no first cause because an argument is formally poor does not get at the problem in the first place. Context does not attribute essential characteristics to a things nature unless we're arguing for contingency being that which attributes essential characteristics to the nature of anything. Buddhism does make this claim, so its not off the table, but we're attempting to explicate specific propositional stances of several arguments here are we not?— Preceding comment added by Aletheus ( talk • contribs) 20:11, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
I thought this section was about evaluating whether a certain counter argument merits mention. In response to the post above this article isn't defending the existence of God based on strawmanning the non-deistic explanations. It's based on 3 axioms and uses deductive reasoning based on these axioms.
In addition the argument explains why the contingent being required for the existence of the universe must/likely have/has attributes deist attribute to God and God only. For example, the argument posits that omnipotence is plausible and Aseity required. Omnipotence because it's brought into existence everything out of nothing and Aseity because it's an uncaused cause. A being with all the characteristic of God and God only must be God otherwise they're not characteristics of God only. Whether these attributes belong to God only could be place in a criticism section in /info/en/?search=God#Specific_attributes.
Some of the counter-arguments aren't fully developed and have no citations. The "What cause caused the first cause?" section doesn't add anything to the article. In the following sentence an answer is given and no rebuttal is made.
whereas defenders maintain that this question has been answered by the various arguments, emphasizing that none of its major forms rests on the premise that everything has a cause
Either attack that defense or concede. Furthermore, Hume argument that causality may not have always existed isn't defended. The cosmological argument doesn't have to prove the existence of God it just has to prove that the existence of God is more plausible then it's alternative.
A belief that not everything had a cause in the past is possible, but not plausible. If we can't use current experience to defend the premise that everything has a cause then what can we use. I wish we could see things popping into existence out of nothing today! It seems really convenient that this law of nature all of a sudden ended in the last 10,000 years or so.
In order for a counterargument to merit mention in this article it should be plausible. It doesn't have to be more plausible just somewhat plausible. For example, I have some theories on why the moon landing didn't happen that I can add to apollo missions if you'd like ;). The "What cause caused the first cause?" counterargument does not present a plausible alternative and it should be removed and/or placed somewhere else or better developed.
Maybe someone could create a page explaining this argument (the Münchausen trilemma is an Epistemological argument not a criticism of the cosmological argument. This reference should be removed too) and then put a synopsis in here instead. — Preceding comment added by Mpdunson ( talk • contribs) 18:11, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
Why is the second paragraph of the "identity of the first cause" even there? These arguments are meant to refute the central point of the cosmological argument - God exists. If the atheist concedes that God exist then the deist has won! If you want to debate the nature of God then that belongs in a criticism section in /info/en/?search=God#Specific_attributes. Mpdunson ( talk) 15:20, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
The second paragraph of the "identity of the first cause" doesn't belong in this article. The arguments in this section are meant to refute the central point of the cosmological argument - God exists. If the atheist concedes that God exist then the deist has won! If you want to debate the nature of God then that belongs in a criticism section in /info/en/?search=God#Specific_attributes. Mpdunson ( talk) 15:24, 30 July 2015 (UTC)Mpdunson
These parts have become garbled and ungrammatical, although edited lately by only one contributor. It must be severely edited. Myrvin ( talk) 19:17, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
Also, the "Existence of causal loops" subsection of "Objections and counterarguments" section is not really a rebuttal per se of the CA. It is a challenge to the CA's *conclusion*, but there are plenty of other arguments (e.g. existence of evil) which also do that but which don't belong here. So I don't see a need for this particular example either. Objections to the CA should attack the CA *specifically*. I propose that subsection simply be removed. Sleety Dribble ( talk) 14:59, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
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Only in theory do the Proton and Electron Decay. Q.v. Wiki articles on Proton Decay, the Proton and Electron respectively. They do not require creation at all. If one reversed time, even to a theoretical "Big Bang," or other more spurious creation; Hydrogen (a Proton and Electron) could "observe" that creation unaffected. No theory required. Fact dismissing the Cosmological Argument. "Big Bang" is a theory. Immortality, real immortality of a Proton, is a reality. Finally, Proton/Electron decay, only a theory. GESICC ( talk) 00:27, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
A search of The Cosmological Argument [2] doesn't find either "proton" or "electron". We need verifiable quotations that say that the proton and electron are immortal and discuss this immortality in relationship to the cosmological argument. Doug Weller talk 14:08, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
I can see arguments and discussion about conservation of energy in the Stanford source, and it seems interesting. Perhaps that sort of argument can be included in the article. Recall, however, that this discussion got started on the assertion that since photons and electrons don't apparently decay, the cosmological argument could be dismissed. This might not be the same as conservation of energy. I suggest sticking with what the reliable sources say. Sincerely, Isambard Kingdom ( talk) 22:07, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
So,
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
"The theory is said to assume many aspects of how the universe came to be without scientific analysis, rather a monotheistic religious outlook. Most scientists argue that "God" is not a scientifically proven cause, considering current acceptable evidence does not verify a deity’s existence.
Some cosmologists and physicists argue that a challenge to the cosmological argument is the nature of time, "One finds that time just disappears from the Wheeler–DeWitt equation"[cite this quote] - Carlo Rovelli. The Big Bang theory states that it is the point in which all dimensions came into existence, the start of both space and time.[28] Then, the question "What was there before the Universe?" makes no sense; the concept of "before" becomes meaningless when considering a situation without time.[28] This has been put forward by J. Richard Gott III, James E. Gunn, David N. Schramm, and Beatrice Tinsley, who said that asking what occurred before the Big Bang is like asking what is north of the North Pole.[28] However, some cosmologists and physicists do attempt to investigate what could have occurred before the Big Bang, using such scenarios as the collision of membranes to give a cause for the Big Bang.[29]"
This assumes that the Argument relies on temporal causation, which it does not. On the contrary, the Argument calls for an atemporal God who atemporally caused the first temporal thing so as to create time itself. (The "first temporal thing" could easily be the Singularity at the Moment of the Bang.)
In other words, it is precisely that nothing came before the Bang that validates the Argument, namely that running out of temporal causes necessitates an atemporal cause. (Note: A "cause" can be an object origin as well as an event cause, the latter being the colloquial use of the word. For example, matter-antimatter creations not caused by any event still originate ("are caused") by the field of neutral energy in which the particles separate.)
While I am suggesting placing this in the Article, if nothing else to bring that Section in line with WP:NPOV, I am still looking for sources from which to do so (other than my own paper, although if someone else were to cite me on here that would be a different story). The Mysterious El Willstro ( talk) 08:50, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
Can I just add - another big problem with the section is that it falsely suggests that the idea of "no before the big bang" is new, ironically ignoring the fact that Saint Augustine first stated this a millenium and a half ago...in turn quoted by Stephen Hawking. "As we shall see, the concept of time has no meaning before the beginning of the universe. This was first pointed out by St. Augustine. When asked: What did God do before he created the universe? Augustine didn't reply: He was preparing Hell for people who asked such questions. Instead, he said that time was a property of the universe that God created, and that time did not exist before the beginning of the universe." [Stephen Hawking, A Brief History of Time (New York: Bantam, 1988), p. 8] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Frduane ( talk • contribs) 11:24, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
@ User:Apollo The Logician https://infidels.org/kiosk/article/cosmological-arguments-against-the-existence-of-god-726.html is a reliable source. Palazmer ( talk) 16:12, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I deleted the section on the "scientific" positions on the argument as the entire section was seriously misleading. The so called motion from nothing is badly named. Certainly a body can move without having another body move it, but it doesn't simply move from nothing, it moves because it has a probability amplitude to move and so in some sense it has a cause making it move, the laws of quantum mechanics, which are not nothing. You might argue laws of physics are merely descriptions of things and not causes, but that is certainly an unresolved philosophy of science dispute.
As for there being no time before the big bang, first of all certain branches of M theory have claimed there existed branes before the big bang which caused the universe by their collision, so there are scientific investigations of what could or did occur before the big bang, causes and all. Plus it is easy to imagine a cause having an instantaneous effect that needed no time to occur at all, so having no time does not necessarily break down the concept of cause and effect.
Finally, there honestly is no general scientific consensus on whether there is or is not a necessary being, so there really is no scientific position on the argument, just opinions of some scientists, and those don't qualify as the scientific position on the matter, which currently doesn't really exist. Roy Brumback 05:39, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Sorry dude, as a physicist I know that there is not any generally accepted position on whether the universe had a prime mover or whether one was necessary or not or whether there is a necessary being. Our only two cites for this section, which claims the argument has been scientifically refuted, which is not true, are a popular science book and a popular science lecture. Now I'm not disrespecting Kaku or Hawking, but Hawking's statement that there was not time before the universe began is not his, it goes back to Augustine of Hippo, which Hawking says in I believe A Brief History of Time, and so is not in opposition to any basic Christian philosophy about God. And as I pointed out, physicists and cosmologists do investigate what might have happened before the big bang. It's not a scientifically meaningless question as this section is trying to claim. And Kaku's description of the molecules in the jar not being moved, as I pointed out, is not motion from nothing. The molecules had to have a probability or potential to move. The reason things can move without another body moving them is they had a probability to move based on the uncertainty principle. When you ask physicists why a particle just started moving or why for instance the particles are generated in a vacuum, they would say because of the uncertainty principle and the laws of quantum physics. That's implying a cause. There was a cause for the motion or the creation, not something out of nothing. Now laws of physics and probabilities are not nothing. And where did they come from? Hawking I believe in a actual paper he wrote had the universe jumpstarted from a primeordial wave function, see Hartle-Hawking state, but where did that come from? And this idea, as most ideas about the initial conditions of the universe, has been in no way accepted by all or even most scientists. So unless it can be shown from a credible cited source that the vast majority of physicists and cosmologists hold that the cosmological argument has actually been scientifically refuted, not that they just don't personally accept it or something like that, we should not be making that claim. For instance the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy makes no such claim, and has several pros and cons for the argument based on modern science, including the example of vacuum motion and vacuum genesis. And as for popular science sources, Carl Sagan always held that the idea of a creator and generator of the universe had neither been proven nor disproven by science. Roy Brumback 05:26, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
It might be worth considering for a second what exactly the science refutes here - not the existence of God, which is impossible of course, but this basic form of the cosmological argument - "Since every motion is caused by a mover, there must be a prime mover who started the universe." Take note, it says, there "must be", not can be, not should be, not most likely is, but the Cosmological Argument says there -must be- a prime mover.
The science no longer backs that up - movement can come into existence without a mover, especially at the subatomic level. The idea that there must be, not "could be", not "might have been", a prime mover is what is now scientifically wrong. The cosmological argument, once considered a theistic slam dunk, is now scientifically debatable.-- Primal Chaos 12:25, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree the argument is scientifically debateable, but I disagree that modern science has shown that movement can come into existence without a mover. Only if you say the mover must be a body has this been challenged, but the mover in for instance vacuum motion is in fact the potential for motion inherent in all things. It's not as if something just starts moving for no reason at all, it moves because of the uncertainty principle, which might or might not be a cause, but is certainly given as a reason for things like vacuum motion, not usually as just a description, which goes back to my original statement about laws of physics being causes vs descriptions, which is an unresolved argument. As it's currently written it says there are scientific refutations of the arguemnt such as vacuum motion, which in fact some people think this might refute it and some don't, but we are having this stated as fact, which is not the case. Roy Brumback 00:09, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree with the edits Roy Brumback made to the scientific section, given the small revisions and copy-edits I've already done. Are you happy, Roy, and if so, can we remove the disputed tag?-- Primal Chaos 18:41, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree with your second round of edits. Does the section now stand as written?-- Primal Chaos 03:08, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
And to clarify, the reason I added the scientific positions section was I though the scientist's outlook on the "proof" provided by the argument was inherently separate from the philosopher's counterarguments presented above. They are two very different fields, with very different standards, but both with interesting and important things to say about the cosmological argument. -- Primal Chaos 03:54, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
If you do not want me to remove the tag, respond in less than two weeks to comments made here. I agree with the clarifications you have made (as above), this section no longer qualifies as totally disputed. You have edited, clarified and otherwise changed the article to a more neutral tone that I can only assume we both agree with since you made the edits and I agree with them.
Unless you just want the tag itself up there to undermine the section for your own religious purposes, make your objections more plainly known so they can be dealt with, rather than reemerging after a month to add it back in while responding to no comments here. If I sound irritated, I am.-- Primal Chaos 01:35, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for not assuming good faith. I never gave a religious reason for the dispute. I said it is untrue that there is any scientific disproof of the cosmological argument, which is a fact. I undid your removal fairly quickly, not taking two weeks. I've been busy with other things besides editing here and I said I will clean this up when I have a chance. As the article currently stands it says this:
As I pointed out, the first statment is just Kaku's opinion and needs to be labeled as such. The second is untrue as I keep pointing out to you that the first mover argument and first cause argument are not taken as the same by everyone and the page clearly says the argument involves the first cause, which has nothing to do with one "object" moving another. I am disputing these statements as some kind of scientific fact, which they are not, so I'm keeping the tag on there until this is fixed. Roy Brumback 00:44, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
How's that for now? Roy Brumback 02:34, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Concerning the perpetual occurance of mirages of apparently uncaused phenomena throughout the entire history of science, it is no mystery why modern science congradulates itself on discovering the first real incidences of uncaused "self creation or self-moved motion. Note the huge difference between knowing that a thing is self-caused or self-moved and mearly suspecting or wondering if that may be the case. Before scientists found out about atomic weights, they could have thought that different materials caused themselves to be heavier than others; and before nuclear chemistry, there was no known cause for what made gold to be gold; and before Newton, there was no known cause for the falling of apples from trees. It is the very nature of physical science to continually pioneer into new areas where no mind has gone before in order to always be discovering new facts, new forces, new particles, and always new things for which, since these are brand new, they have no idea what may be their actual cause. Sometimes science moves a lot slower than it wants, taking decades or even centuries to finally and laboriously discover what causes what. That is the very nature of science - to always have unsolved effects that keep us forever searching, searching for the ever-changing causes for our ever-expanding universe of knowledge of the causes of things. By induction we can confidently conclude that since scientists had unsolved causality problems a thousand years ago, more advanced causality problems nine hundred years ago, even more advanced causality problems eight hundred years ago, and so on, therefore, we must expect to always have these causality issues which will eventually be solved even as most older causality issues have in fact been solved. For every new fact or discovery, we may ask, "Now why is this so?" or "What causes this to be so?". Its the very nature of new discovery to constitute a new question. This is the best science can hope for : new knowledge always engendering new questions. Its a great definition of science. Inductive logic infers that given enough time, every such question about the causes of things will be discovered by science. Therefore the principle of causation that everything finite must have a cause is inductively (i.e., scientifically) valid. Posted by Jerry P. T. Weaver, ageoftheology.com 216.185.104.163 00:36, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
I think an useful consideration for editors here is to not assume that arguments (in particular for Aquinas' Five Ways) are necessarily based on a sequence in time, or at least limited to such a sequence.
On this note, I have changed the idea that the Universe must have been caused by something that was itself uncaused, to the idea that the Universe must be caused by something that is itself uncaused.
For example, in Aquinas' discussion of infinite causation in Summa contra gentile 38 [13] he excludes accidental causation (Socrates' grandfather) and non-immediate causation (the stone is moved by the stick, which is moved by the hand). Rick Jelliffe ( talk) 09:57, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
It's problematic. Τζερόνυμο ( talk) 10:36, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
Dr. Craig only says that the cause of the universe according to the Kalām cosmological argument must be "unimaginably powerful, if not omnipotent". I have never seen him say the cause must be omnipotent as this article asserts. HalMartin ( talk) 08:04, 27 November 2019 (UTC)