This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Colonization of Venus article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
Colonization of Venus was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
Current status: Former good article nominee |
To-do list for Colonization of Venus:
|
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||
|
... because it's based on many dozens of papers I've read during a review of the literature and I don't have half a year to work onto the article.
1) Venus's day length and temperature are not constant with altitude. The day length decreases the closer you get to the poles. For example, at about 70° degeres a Venus day is equivalent to about 2 Earth days, while near the equator it's closer to a week. The zonal winds decrease in velocity with latitude but not as quickly as the path around the planet decreases. Temperature, too, varies significantly by latitude, particularly in the day. The closer you are to the poles, again, the closer you get to Earth norms. The main concern of heading too far toward the poles is the polar vortices. The level of danger they (or any of Venus's storm systems) would propose is, at this point in time, highly speculative. We just have so little data.
Note that concerning agriculture, some plants are "long day" plants and others are "short day" plants; unusual day lengths can effect their blooming. That said, the relationship isn't so simple - bidiurnal and triurnal cycles often yield better results on sensitive plants than 1,5x, 2,5x, etc length days.
2) Venus was indeed once wet. Venus's deuterium percentage is commonly said to be on the order of 150 times that of Earth, though some studies have put it as high as 240 times (it's enough that you have to start wondering about health concerns - although there are solutions if it does prove to be a problem, eg. doing nighttime power storage through reversible fuel cells and plumbing them as an enrichment cascade, making use of the enrichment factor that occurs in electrolysis). The high deuterium levels are highly indicative of a tremendous amount of water mass escape to space - far more than Mars, where the ratio is 5-7 times that of Earth. Some of the other "missing" chemicals on Venus aren't as obvious as to why they occurred, however - for example, models suggest there should be on the order of at least three orders of magnitude more mercury in the atmosphere than there is.
3) It's not true that access to metals requires access to the surface. For example, iron (ferric and ferrous chloride) has been directly detected in Venus's atmosphere, for example, where according it probably makes up on the order of 1% of the mass of every sulfuric acid droplet (the exact quantity depending on which paper you read ;) ). Process ~100 tonnes of sulfuric acid, get on the order of ~1 tonne of iron chloride... that's not a small amount of iron, considering that your primary structural components are nonmetallic. There's a whole range of compounds that have been studied for their vaporization potential, chemical equilibriums, and mass transport properties, from the common like iron chloride down to the super rare like silicon tetrafluoride. Some are considered likely by some authors but very doubtful by others (such as aluminum chloride). Others, while not having been detected, are generally considered quite likely, such as iodine, bromine, and antimony compounds. The general forms are fluorides, chlorides, and oxychlorides. Other examples of potential cloud-level trace species include arsenic oxide, selenium chloride, tellurium chloride, mercury chloride, lead chloride, zinc chloride, indium chloride, and bismuth chloride. Right now, we really don't know what minor constituents might be there; we only have a good sense of the major ones.
4) It's not true that water access is extremely difficult. While we haven't identified all of the droplet types (mode 3 is a big debate subject), there's no question that sulfuric acid is abundant - about 75-85%, several mg/m³. Heating it not only liberates the 15-25% water, but the H2SO4 breaks down to H2O + SO3. Further heating, preferentially aided by catalysts, breaks down 2 SO3 to 2 SO2 + O2. So right there that's H2O and O2. Sulfuric acid is highly hygroscopic and will readily adsorb onto absorption beds, which can be placed inside naceles on the craft's engines for collection (you have to have engines to resist the meridional drift regardless, might as well take advantage of the airstream that they move past - increasing blade diameters = greater mass flow / lower flow speed = good). Also, collection via condensation is an open question. While the initial VEGA data was interpreted as involving no condensation/liquid buildup, subsequent reanalysis has suggested that there was actually significant condensation on the craft, ultimately peaking as condensation levels matched runoff levels. Obviously, if it does occur, that would be a (significant) additional collection source. Indeed, VEGA posed almost a worst case for condensation, being comprised of highly hydrophobic PTFE.
5) Landis's concept doesn't actually work with Earth air unless you air condition the entire envelope; the temperatures are too high even assuming no daytime greenhouse effect (which is a serious concern on its own). The claim that the atmosphere is " 0 to −50 °C" at 50km is absolutely not true; see VEGA, which directly measured middle cloud temperatures. Without air conditioning, the pressure needs to be reduced (aka, one needs to float a higher, and thus cooler, altitude), to the ballpark of 35-50kPa, which means a significantly reduced nitrogen content. But people appear to be able to tolerate that largely fine, and plants often actually seem to like it (they get more water stress but it makes their metabolism more efficient and removes ethylene). Another issue is that you have to deal with is gas permeation - both losing your air and having outside gases filter in. It's not a closed cycle. With a modern low-permeation teflon like FEP (not actually pure PTFE, but close enough ;) ) some of the more major gases may exchange at a dozen or two kilograms per day in a moderate sized habitat. However, much more impermeable options are available, such as ETCFE, PCTFE, PVDC, EVOH, BoPET, etc, generally in a layered approach with fiber reinforcement to gain the best properties of each layer (chemical resistance, tensile strength, gas permeability, etc). However, in a way it's kind of good that you have to keep producing fresh air and filtering what you have; totally sealed environments involving extensive exchange of a limited volume of gas between people and plants tend to be unstable (see Biosphere 2). Keeping CO2 down to comfort levels may be a challenge, however; I'm still working on that in the models.
6) It's quite true that not only would leaks be slow (overpressure on large balloons is usually only a couple hundred pascals), but there's some less obvious side effects. For example, airlocks. There's no need for traditional rigid airlocks; the most reasonable design is basically a big "ziplock bag" that you step into, vacuum seal around you, then open to the outside (and vice versa for return). Also, the acidity of the environment is often overplayed. A few mg per cubic meter isn't like a bath of sulfuric acid; OSHA's limit for breathing H2SO4 mists is 1mg/m³ across an 8-hour work shift ;) Now, Venus's H2SO4 mists are stronger than Earth's, due to the lack of atmospheric moisture; but the shouldn't be thought of like sticking your hand in a vat of sulfuric acid. I'm still searching for more research in this regard to determine how quick dermatitis would occur on unprotected skin; OSHA informs me that they don't have any. Also note that H2SO4 isn't the only acid. For example, the lower cloud likely contains a large amount (if not predominantly) phosphoric acid. There's also acidic gases like HCl and HF; they'd quite readily condense in Earthlike conditions, but in Venus's middle cloud H2SO4 is too good of a dessicating agent over long periods (although they could form droplets over shorter timeperiods).
7) This article doesn't even begin to cover the wide range of terraforming options for Venus that have been proposed in the literature. I even have my own, but having not yet build a CFD model (let alone passed peer review) I'm not going to speculate on its effectiveness here at this point. :) -- Rei ( talk) 13:53, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
Could we do anything to shorten the day to 24 hours and/or move Venus further out from the Sun?
Would it be possible to somehow move Venus so that Earth and Venus are a double planet?
I'm suprised that several similar pages exist, but there has not yet been a colonization of Venus page yet. Roman Soldier 07:19, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
You simply need to think anti-greenhouse, as for using a large enough and well enough insulated structure that has it's interior atmosphere displaced with a greater portion being O2 (at nearly 96 bar, not all that much O2 is actually required for plants or us humans [1% O2 and 99% H2 should more than do the trick]), and of course introducing artificial UV and violet spectrums of illumination for accommodating their long season of nighttime isn't hardly rocket science. Cooling it all down to a dull roar is just based upon utilizing the most basic of applied physics and thermal dynamics that's well enough understood as is, that which actually works quite nifty with having so much local CO2 and unlimited spare/surplus energy to work with. - Brad Guth
I reverted the passage:
Water in any form is almost entirely absent, and the visible clouds are comprised in part of sulfuric acid and sulfur dioxide vapor. While this could be seen as creating an environment extremely hostile to human life, it is arguably more hospitable than places like the Moon and Mercury where light elements may be completely absent.
back to its original form:
Water in any form is almost entirely absent, and the visible clouds are comprised in part of sulfuric acid and sulfur dioxide vapor, creating an environment that is extremely hostile to human life.
... because it IS extremely hostile, and the hostility of the Moon or Mercury does not make Venus any more friendly. Venus is also a lot less hostile than, say, the surface of the sun, but that's not relevant to the section in this article entitled "Obstacles". siafu 20:12, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Chadlupkes is actually correct, in that physics-101 takes care of efficiently extracting teratonnes of pure h2o from them acidic clouds. The energy requirements would be nearly zilch, not that Venus hasn't loads of spare/surplus energy to burn (sort of speak). Do such wise folks as yourselves actually need a step by step LeapFrog pop-up picture book? - Brad Guth
It is impossible to terraform Venus.-- Nixer 05:09, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
I think the terraforming section is uneeded. It should be combined with the Venusian_terraforming article. -- Ittiz 19:51, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree, as to why terraform something that's of such a newish planetology and working perfectly fine and dandy as is. - Brad Guth
A large enough asteroid impacting Earth would turn the surface molten and basically burn the atmosphere, and much/all of the oceans away. Is it possible that a large enough asteroid impact on Venus would both turn the surface to molten vaporized rock and also burn away much or all of the atmosphere? It may sound a bit unethical to cause this, like vandalism on an huge scale, haha. but the atmosphere of Venus seems to be the main impediment to colonization. If the surface cooled fairly quickly following a cataclysmic impact, Venus might be more suitable than Mars for colonization or even terraforming Cuvtixo ( talk) 05:55, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Maybe a 1000 km radius meteorite? perhaps what might be classified as a small moon? Or perhaps a smaller (but still large) object propelled to velocities unobserved in the solar system. I think it might be a fairly small margin between cause the surface crust to turn into rock vapor and completely destroying the planet. There are also questions of whether this would change the orbit of Venus. However, I think it would be a lot of fun to run some calculations on this. I'll anticipate some objections beforehand-- We are of course, making ginourmous assumptions about future technologies, tech capabilities, and of course future economics-- but I see no reason not to! Not long ago human flight, and human space flight were seen as quite impossible too. 76.19.29.52 ( talk) 20:18, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Would the floating cities be domed or open aired structres?-- Rhydd Meddwl 20:54, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
What is the effective gravity at 50km above the surface of Venus? I ask because if the gravity is reduced below that of Mars then you lose an advantage when considering constructing floating cities.-- 72.140.175.249 03:11, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
How about simply going with a few nifty composite rigid airships?
At 65 kg/m3, such robust rigid airships could be extensively made of iron and they'd float. - Brad Guth
I've added a 'not' to the difficulty of building an upper atmosphere sky hook compared to a space elevator on earth. while it reverses the meaning, the previous meaning did not make sense. 220.253.93.188 ( talk) 14:41, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Would it be possible to create a solid shell at the 40-50km level that covers the entire planet? 173.60.95.232 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 05:29, 25 August 2011 (UTC).
Wouldn't the floating city be unstable in the winds? How could we live on the surface if it was constantly bobbing up and down? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.87.143.205 ( talk) 09:31, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
Quite an interesting article. Have made one or two changes, mainly to try to separate verifiable encyclopdeic facts from (scientific) speculation. There is probably a place for both in such an article but they should be kept distinct. Marcus22 11:25, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
At the 50 km height on Venus, would the sky above be clear? Would it be possible to see the night sky? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.2.71.38 ( talk) 11:29, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
Cute, but unencylopedic, in my opinion. Thoughts? -- LeoO3 19:36, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
true-I wouldnt even read wiki anymore they are about as reliable as pravda. I mean colonizing planets? Commie propaganda. Ever here of Mars? It goes way beyond the 4rth dimension you "humans" propose about. Venus is actually New Earth, a young planet yet to evolve into Earth when the cycle reaches a few million years. Maybe then people will realize God's true plan for sequential life. -- 69.255.16.162 07:01, 13 October 2007 (UTC)--Anonymous
12 Jan 2010 GMT (comment above) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.2.71.38 ( talk) 11:31, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
Let's make this article into an FA! Much more interesting and appliccable to people in the here and now compared to the one on terraforming. I'm in Korea so I'll only be able to use the internet when it comes to sourcing. Maybe we should collect resources / ideas here on the talk page to start. Here's one, a thread on a discussion board and a site with more papers by the same person:
I'm not an astrophysicist myself so I'll have to defer to others on that area, but I've gotten an article on the front page before and have been looking for another one that deserves to be on the front since then (December 25, 2005). I think this is the one. Anybody else up for turning this into an FA? Mithridates 16:23, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Overall this is an excellent article and it appears to cover the subject well. However, the low level of referencing expecially in key sections like Advantages and Obstacles mean that it is not GA quality at this time. Also the opening should be reworked per WP:LEAD and sentences like Given the seemingly insurmountable difficulties outlined above, a surface colony on Venus in its present form would appear to be out of the question. should be rewritten in a more encyclopedic tone. Please resubmit the article to WP:GAN or WP:PR when these concerns have been addressed. Eluchil404 20:34, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
I removed the following text:
The long time for resupply and the small apparent size of Earth apply to any locale in the solar system other than the Moon, so there is no particular reason to mention them here. Also, it is not obvious to me that the Earth and stars would be visible from a colony at 50 km altitude. Some reference is needed if they are. Finally the 500+ day launch window intervals apply to orbits with minimum delta-V at each end. These are the ones one would pick for building the colony and for regular supply runs since the payload would be maximized for a given rocket. However there are less efficient orbits available at other times and with techniques like gravity assist (using the Moon and Earth), ion engines and aerobreaking already available with present technology, the question of emergency resupply becomes a complex tradeoff of payload vs time. For a shipment of medicine or small spare parts, I suspect times on the order of months are practical today for most configurations of the two planets. -- agr 13:09, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
While lengthy discussion has been made to the use of solar, nuclear and unproven fusion power on potential space colonies, the use of wind power has never been discussed, perhaps because there is no wind on the moon, and no usable wind power on Mars. This is not the case for Venus, Titan and the gas giants however, which have atmospheric densities greater than Earth's. Wind power is economically viable on Earth and its usage is growing rapidly. This resource would be readily available to floating colonists on Venus or to surface colonists (or robots) on Titan. Wind turbines are also much cheaper, lighter and simpler to construct than nuclear reactors. Jasonkglore 17:05, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
As per wind or atmospheric derived energy, you kind folks need to think vertical, unless that's asking too much. How many spare megaWatts, gigaWatts or perhaps even teraWatts would you like? - Brad Guth
I agree, Venus has enormous and easy to get energy. A balloon at 50km is moving very constantly around 100 m/s. All we need is to attach a tether to it almost to the ground down with a wind turbine at the end. It should be around 1000 more efficient than on Earth! (10 times wind speed * 100 times more dense atmosphere. Does anyone has a link to a research paper on this? - Dmitriy Usov
The section on Obstacles draws attention to the dire survival rate of the Soviet Venera program landers, but neglects to mention that Venera 13 managed to survive 127 minutes on the surface of Venus -- the, as far as surface survival goes, most successful lander to date. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 161.184.11.236 ( talk) 09:04, 22 February 2007 (UTC).
The article said that in the future, in October 2006, a Mercury mission will have a flyby of Venus. I went ahead and changed that to be past tense (I'm just assuming that it actually happened as planned). It says the same mission will do another flyby next month, so in the near future someone will need to move that mission's mention entirely out of the future missions paragraph, and maybe put something about the results/findings. -- 67.110.213.253 06:01, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't know how to do it, but could 'Colonisation of Venus' please redirect to 'Colonization of Venus' even if only for British English speakers —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.77.205.92 ( talk) 18:59, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
I think colonization is a bad word and wikipedia should avoid it for at least two reasons.
1., Countries older than USA usually view it as meaning the armed invasion of a newly discovered land AND destroying its native population or making slaves out of them and robbing the land of its gold, silver and other valuable resources. Colonization is associated with imperialism, or the rule of capitalism-influenced expansionist industrial countries at the expense of lesser nations. UN's 1960 declaration names the de-colonization process as an absolute moral good and something worthy of unconditionally worthy of support.
2., Some weird people may think colonization has something to do with sexual intercourse done in the wrong opening or maybe its a medical practise related to the investigation of the digestive organs. 82.131.210.162 ( talk) 13:20, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
I hope your joking. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.212.253.187 ( talk) 15:27, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Countries older than USA usually view it as meaning the armed invasion of a newly discovered land AND destroying its native population or making slaves out of them and robbing the land of its gold, silver and other valuable resources.
Generally because that's the way those countries do colonization.
Why should Colonization be changed because of the way some people used it? Most people nowadays know what it means - i.e. not what you said it did - so it doesn't need to be changed. What would you replce it with, anyway? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.141.29.159 ( talk) 17:01, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
The "Colonization of Venus" article has been put into a new category, the "Nanotech Age" category which was created only about a month ago. It seems to me there should be some indication in the text of the article that Nanotechnology would be used in Colonizing Venus before the article is put into this category. Since there is a lack of any verifiable indication that the article belongs in the category "Nanotech Age," I intend to remove this category.-- Fartherred ( talk) 00:55, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
Other pages on Colonization have pictures of it as an illustration in the beginning of the article, yet Venus lacks one.
I suggest drawing a picture to depict a possible half-transparent aerostat with a meadow on its bottom, floating in the Venusian atmosphere with people inside the aerostat wearing short-sleeves, and people outside the aerostat wearing the same clothes, only covered with light transparent plastic suits and masks, to illustrate the most likely approach to Venus. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.239.86.199 ( talk) 11:56, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
Advantages and Difficulties are just the same as Pros and Cons. They may be more of a pro and con prose, but still that constitutes pro and con. See WP:PROCON. -- Turkeybutt ( talk) 11:17, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
Why isn't this favored more instead of mars? 188.210.27.247 ( talk) 15:33, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
An attempt to further approach an exhaustion of potential remaining problems for Venus habitat concepts (by pointing out solar flares, hurricanes, lightnings, and tiny space rocks landing on Venus):
Structural and industrial materials would be hard to retrieve from the surface and expensive to bring from Earth/asteroids. The sulfuric acid itself poses a further challenge in that the colony would need to be constructed of or coated in materials resistant to corrosion by the acid, such as PTFE (a compound consisting wholly of carbon and fluorine). Also, maybe most importantly, since Venus is closer to the sun, the chance of solar storms from solar flares hitting Venus - and that then with higher intensity both due to the shorter distance and the lack of a magnetosphere - is higher, risking the malfunctioning and breakdown of electronic infrastructure. Besides this, atmospheric lightnings as well as strong atmospheric storms, such as possibly hurricanes, could damage and violently push on atmospheric habitats alike a rough sea on a ship. And it was confirmed by a team of researchers at the University of Lisbon, who found that the upper part of Venus' atmosphere suffers from hurricane-force winds of up to 360 kilometers per hour. Tiny rocks from space of various sizes with associated frequency distributions depending on size that also hail down on Venus likely constitute a problem to the structural integrity of the hull of any atmospheric habitat, long-term. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.192.195.234 ( talk) 03:59, 23 September 2023 (UTC)