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Clown fans, plenty to do on this page! Ortolan88 11:52 Aug 2, 2002 (PDT)
If I might make a couple suggestions, this entire article needs a rewrite. The entire thing (including some of the talk pages) suffers from a defensiveness mixed with uncritical praise. Just a rewrite of the introduction would benefit it a lot, then it needs a sensible organization, and the application of a lot of neutral tone. Much of it needs to be cut, such as the list of performers who supposedly match one clown type or another, even though they don't perform in clown makeup or otherwise fit into the clown genre. Then, it needs a much better-researched history section, some brief comparisons to fools, comics, and tricksters, and a higher-level analysis about what makes clowning work. Turtle Falcon 03:09, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
What happened to the absolutely brilliant page that this was in May 2006? I'm very annoyed. Liability Bennett 03:01, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
The CLOWN EGG collection has moved from London and is now based at Wookey Hole in Somerset, a tourist attraction run by Gerry Cottle.
The articles relating to children surveyed in hospital did not show that children were afraid of Clowns but that they didn't like Clown images as hospital decor. Wikipedia is no the only place where the research has been misrepresented and the articles failed to mention the work of Hospital/Therapeutic Clowns.
{{ editsemiprotected}} [[[User:Plopbot|Plopbot]] ( talk) 06:41, 13 February 2010 (UTC)]
Great choice for an article, Ortolan. A while ago, I thought of doing an article on the Flying Wallendas--not clowns but trapeze artists--but got side-tracked. I will see what I can find over the weekend. Danny
Here's a couple resources: http://www.coai.org/history.asp
http://www.clown-ministry.com/History/clowntype-tramp.html
Why is there no discussion of the literary clown, i.e. Falstaff and Touchstone in Shakespeare's Henry IV Part 1 and As You Like It, respectively?-- Magmagirl 15:52, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Wow! The most recent addition is pretty doggone obscure:
I hope you'll provide more, both on the Brettrix, and maybe an article on ancient Ashtead as well. Ashtead, Surrey isn't much help. Ortolan88
If that was vandalism, as whoever deleted it says it was, it was pretty classy vandalism. Ortolan88
If that info is good, please reinstate it. I have no clue about 'Brettix' myself Pedant
Hi folks, I've sort of adopted this pages, watch for changes and extensions.
I invite you to amplify anything I might include if you can. I have taught clowning and juggling, and performed professionally as well. I'm also a maven of the juggling arts, circus skills, and a dabbler in clown, juggling and circus history, but I don't consider myself The Expert.
Of real interest to me at this time would be the addition of 'Famous people not well known as clowns but who perform/performed as clowns'(such as Ernest Borgnine) as well as the addition of 'Performers whose primary or major role was a clown role - but might not be considered by many 'outside the clown world' (those who really know clowning more than anyone else are clowns - it takes one to know one)to be clowns but who are unmistakably and demonstrably in fact clowns("Pee Wee Herman" and "Lucy Ricardo" are examples.)
Also, some of the clowns on this page don't have any info but their name. They could use a description or even a short bio.
I'm looking for information on bit "The Stranger With a Kind Face" aka "Niagara Falls!" aka "Slowly I turned" I know it is of vaudevillian origin but I haven't found the originator. (this bit was featured on I love Lucy and on one of the Three Stooges movies) you know it:"slowly I turned,step by step, inch by inch...."
also If you can, add to the clown material on pages that link here (see my additions to Lucille Ball) and link to this page from any related pages you might think of.
I envision Clown as a robust hub page eventually. If you have any suggestions I thoroughly welcome them. Pedant 18:31, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
http://accessibility.english-heritage.org.uk/Default.asp?WCI=NewsItem&WCE=486
as they say in the 'clown world': "a knock is a plug", the article this link points to is a raving rant against clowns, yet in it/s own way, it, itself is an example of clowning-used-as-political-activity, and is really kinda amusing.
I'm half-tempted to leave this link in, but after checking the other articles on that site, I think the article's content as well as the author themself may be unstable.
If you want to add joke links like this, please put them on the discuss page, where they might be appreciated longer. Clowns obviously edit this article, and many of us even have a sense of humor. Pedant
Go visit the Gacy article, look at the picture, and tell me he wasn't a notorious clown. Until a coherent argument can be made to exclude gacy from the list of notable clowns, I am reverting User:Wyss' vandalism to this article. -- Oipolloi 21:26, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Gacy was not professionally noted as a clown and IMO doesn't belong on a list of people who gained notability through their work as clowns. However, I see there is another section for historical clowns and it seems appropriate to me, so I've moved his name there. Readers are welcome to look at my contribution history and talk page if they have any questions about my edits and their compliance with WP policy. Wyss 05:42, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Being a professional has nothing to do with being a clown.
Many great (as well as mediocre and abjectly horrible) painters were never professionals within their lifetimes, but it does not revoke their status as those who paint.
Mr. Gacy was a philanthropist and a "caring clown" He filled the same role that "ministry clowns' fill, in that he would clown to ailing children in the hospitals of Chicago. http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial/gacy/gacymain.htm
He was a mass murder and a foul individual of the wretchedest sort, but he was very much and quite legitimately a clown. -- Soggy biscuits 00:44, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
John Wayne Gacy was some loser who VOLUNTEERED as a clown; a perfectly awful clown from all accounts. That does NOT make him a "clown" any more than volunteering to bring your neighbor his mail would make you a "mailman". If you can't see the difference between Gacy and the professional entertainers described in the article maybe you should research the subject a little further.
I think Gacy belongs in the article someplace. The clown persona is integral to who he is thought of -- John Wayne Gacy, "The Killer Clown". It's the total incongruity of the clown with the murderer.
There is also the fact that some people consider clowns creepy, and there's even a name for the phobic fear of clowns -- Coulrophobia -- and there's an American stereotype of the Evil clown. ChristinaDunigan 23:19, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
By the logic of listing Gacy as a clown, Hitler should be included on lists of famous painters. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.100.200.139 ( talk) 02:49, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Am quasi-alphabetizing and resorting the famous clowns list. My intent is to make it more readily perused, as well as shifting the misplaced bits to the lists they belong in and correcting some of the erratta, (the j.p. patches entry for instance was particularly erroneous) Let me know if there is any legitimate objection to these changes.
Also, as an aside, as a performing theatrical clown of a number of years, I have to say the whole bit about "the code" listed here strikes me a huge load of bunkum. There is a "clown code of ethics" set forth by the coai that is used to keep birth party clowns in line, but there is no gentleman's rule of non-infrigement in the clown community, any more than there is in any other art's profession, and plagarism is as ripe with clowns as it is in any other performing group. The somewhat commonplace use of standard material and regular "borrowing" or "lifting" of material, especially among the non-theatrical set, flies in the face of the statement that "this code of non-infringement is always respected by the professional clown,"
I also find the piece on eggs to be somewhat misleading. They bear no official purpose and have no legal relevance. They are a tradition and an act of vanity more than anything else (much a the's who's who book or a self publishing companies) .
I'll continue sorting the lists over the next few days as time permits. I'd also like to see gacy added back to these lists, I believe he belongs in here somewhere. CLowns are as much dirty and human as they are cartoonish and candy coated. Any student of thier history will known that they were not the entertainers of children they have become until the last 50 or 60 years, having held a role much closer to political commentator/stand up comic through to the invention of telelvision, and for the centuries before the invention of circus, were a foil to tyranny and a outspoken critic of the status quo. They weren't relegated to mall openings and babysitting, and to treat them as though they exist only in those roles is a disrespectful to the position they hold in our cultures.
--
Soggy biscuits 01:03, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
Clown Eggs? Clown What? We don't have clown eggs.Who has clown eggs? Where's my egg? Can I have it poached? I'm going to amend this if nobody gives a reference.
-- Theduchess 11:19, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
I have been slowly adding to the circus related articles and I have finally gotten to this one. I have added a good deal of information on the terminology of the parts that make up a clowning show. I might break this out to its own entry when I get more time (and figure out how!), but the base material is up.
I will likely add more, especially to the frameworks section when I have some more time, giving the 4 major types of frameworks, examples of each and other related information.
I may also add in a selection of example bits to this, making it a little easier to see how it all fits togeather.
So as I am sure you have noticed, much of the vandalism on this page comes froms fans of the ihateclowns.com website.
This site is a commercial venture owned and opperated by Rodney Blackwell, who also appears to have included himself in the article. While i feel a correctly labled (as commercial) external link to his site is appropriate I don't believe this self aggrandizment wihtin the article is appropriate or accurate.
If there is no reasoned objection to this I will remove that section of the article. (I will wait to see if this talk entry recieves any response first,)
Also, I believe the page is becomgin unwieldly and that the entries concerning the makeup of clown shows would be better served as their own article, (linked to from this one obviously)
Please respond with comments and I will proceed based on those. -- Soggy biscuits 14:42, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Since there has been no objection, I'll pull the commercial plug for the owner ofthe Ihateclowns.com website. I am leaving the external link to his site, but removing the biut where he talsk abotu himself in the article. That bit of the entry is of dubious factuality, and alot of the vandalism we get on this page seems to be in promotion of his site.
also going to be adding articles corcering the san fransisco center for circus arts, and the clown conservatory, in the next week or so.
-- Soggy biscuits 19:13, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Since somebody mentioned Gacy, let me throw in Mandy Patinkin, who (I think) was once a clown (& whose "Chicago Hope" character quit being a surgeon to become a clown) & Chris Walken, who once worked as a very scary clown... (OK, he didn't, but I couldn't resist. He did work in a circus, as a lion tamer.) Trekphiler 05:35, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
Pickelherring is not mentioned anywhere in Wikipedia. A type of clown introduced into Germany by Shakespearian touring companies, and a popular 17th Century tune by the same name. Has someone some time to add some details about this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by BWernham ( talk • contribs) 08:24, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Refergin to
Wikipedia:External links, several of them do not appear to apply. I'd like to remove them.
brenneman
(t)
(c) 06:54, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
I think this article is good, overall, but is lacking some citations and sources, particulary on the sections of types of clowns and skills of clowns... where did all that info came from? There is aparently one reference - "The Power Clown" Wall Street Journal Aug 12th 2005 - but I don't have acess to that article so I can't confirm it... I tagged it under the unreferenced template. Also, got to be careful when writing that "clowns can do almost anything in a circus" because of the NPOV policy. Ricardo Silva 06:06, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
For the people who don't want to come to the talk page to see if there happens to be a clown expert on it, this article needs sources. I'm going to have to add some templates. 199.126.137.209 13:34, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Because of most of the comments above, I don't think there needs to be much explanation of the cleanup tag I added. There's barely any NPOV, advertising scattered throughout, for some reason =These headings= were being used in places and there are lots of mentions of non-notable clowns. I'm going to try to come back and clean this one up a bit but it looks like it's going to be difficult. I'm not sure what to do with a lot of the unsourced stuff, but it looks like it might have to go. Mrtea (talk) 05:20, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi! I've been kinda busy over the last two weeks revamping the page, adding publicity photos to better illustrate the traditional clown types and notable clown performers deserving of recognition. I've also been rearranging the text, incorporating as much of what was already here as possible, to make the information clearer and more useful to both performers and non-performers alike. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.-- Cashincomedy 08:15, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't know just where to put this observation, but at this moment "Clowning" redirects to "Krumping". Does this seem absurd to anyone else? or have I just reached the age where "what I'm WITH isn't IT any more"? 24.36.35.188 ( talk) 22:40, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I really don't appreciate my attempt at a contribution to the list being referred to as a "defacement". I contributed honestly and in good faith. Further, can somebody please explain to me (without personal attacks) why Doink should not be considered a fictional clown? In all honesty, I just don't see the reasoning here. -- HBK| Talk 14:45, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
I apologize for considering your addition part of a "defacement" if you weren't the contributor who took down weeks of hard work and eliminated all of the descriptive photos that had been added.
I've been working very hard over the last few weeks to turn the clown article into something more accurate and descriptive of the overall picture of traditional clowning and less about birthday party clowns, balloon twisting and Ronald McDonald that clowning has become to most people's minds. In the post-Gacy age of "Scary Clowns", "Evil Clowns", "Killer Clowns" and "I Hate Clowns" I think Wikipedia's entry for clowning desperately needs to present clowning in the best possible light to counteract the sheer weight of the current trend towards the demonization of the clown's image.
You may not know the name Otto Griebling as well as you do Bozo or Krusty but any one of a number of scholarly books on the subject from John Towsen's CLOWNS to Bill Ballentine's CLOWN ALLEY would agree that people like Otto and Lou Jacobs are the high water mark of their profession. The fact that most people don't know them makes their inclusion here in the clown article all the more important.
As for not including "Doink" under "clowns"...
Doink the Clown is an identity assigned to professional wrestlers. The character does not exist outside of the WWF/WWE. The entertainer wrestling under that identity is not a physical or visual comedian and doesn't fit the criterea for "clown" as well as it does "professional wrestler".
Outside of the superficial connection of wearing greasepaint and a wig Doink doesn't fit in for the same reason that the Insane Clown Posse or Homey the Clown don't either. They co-opt the image of the clown without any of the spirit of what that profession and it's traditions entail.
Simply describing any character as "... the Clown" doesn't make that character a clown character. Homer Simpson is a thousand times more of a clown than Homey the Clown could ever be.
Despite the fact that the character evolved into something more family and kid-friendly than originally presented Doink is listed extensively, and more appropiately, elsewhere and probably more accurately under "evil clowns".
So I hope you would agree that Doink is more accurately described as a wrestler and that you will please continue to participate and contribute and again, I apologize for any confusion. ~Cashincomedy 03/20/05
_________
_______
Jack, Ronald, and the like all exist within their very rigid corporate worlds but have a lot more pop culture exposure than the Doink character. I think it's important to have them listed here, in a marginalized way, so that people can see that they have very little to do with the traditions of physical and visual knockabout slapstick comedy.
Plus corporate clowns such as Jack or Ronald aren't portrayed as negative, evil or scary clown stereotypes, which have their own page.
I'd prefer to add more circus, theater, film and television clowns and help show the thread from the physical comedy of the Commedia through circus, vaudeville, burlesque, silent films, animated cartoons, prop and sketch comics and sitcoms than focus on any of the more superficial aspects of clowning.
I think that the original "evil clown" incarnation of Doink was the one that made the bigger and more lasting cultural impact but since you're really sincere in your desire to have the character listed under "fictional clowns" I guess I would agree with the inclusion of the Ray Liachelli portrayal of the character and a link to the Doink article if your focus isn't on the negative portrayal.
But I still think that the ECW was responsible for far more geniune slapstick comedy than Doink ever was ; ) ~Cashincomedy 03/21/06
Coulrophobia while not a completely accurate term is the word many psychologists use to describe a general fear of clowns. I realize from the discussion here that the article is trying its best to portray clowns in a positive light (which I too feel they deserve) but isn't the goal of a Wiki article to be objective and neutral? At the very least a brief mention or simple link to the wiki article on Coulrophobia should be included even if the actual cause of fear varies from individual to individual.
I would even argue on expanding the part on this phobia and referring to other (historical?) sources to make the article more balanced. - Redmess ( talk) 18:19, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Then EVERY wiki article should be made to carry a brief mention of the pseudo-scientific term for the possible fear of that subject. People have been known to have an irrational fear of dogs, seafood and/or Belgians but that is largely irrelevant to any discussion of those topics and need not be mentioned in their articles.
"Coulrophobia" is largely an internet invention, spurred by the media with bad movies like "Shakes the Clown", bad musical acts like the Insane Clown Posse and trash fiction like "It".
When you acknowledge the concept of coulrophobia central to any discussion of the art of the clown you do a great disservice to the many brilliant performers who have distinguished themselves in that field throughout history.
Fear is not what clowning is about at all. It is actually one of the, if not the, most open, honest and immediate of all of the performing arts.
ave
It's been stated here on the discussion page before, Gacy was a contractor who volunteered to appear in a clown suit at a handful of local events.
He was hardly a professional clown. The arresting image of him in his awful clown makeup and pathetic home made suit serve as a particularly sinister image but statistically speaking MAILMEN are responsible for FAR more murders than either clowns or clown wanabees and no one wastes their time being afraid to go pick up their mail.
If your story is to be believed then that is NOT an example of an irrational fear. It is a fear based on a very specific encounter with a bad performer, most likely a volunteer Shrine clown at a Shrine Circus performance.
But it happened when you were 6. Get over it.
I saw Psycho when I was 10. I had nightmares. I still take showers.
If you had a bad experience with a black man, an Asian man or the League of Women Voters as a child would that be an excuse for racist or sexist behavior in adulthood?
And if you are absolutely terrified of clowns what are you doing in the discussion page of this article? You'd think someone with an all consuming fear that they've been gripped with since childhood would avoid this subject like the plague, no?
There are many people with a fear of clowns, I've worked with and as a clown since 1980 and seen at least 20 people with an outright-panic-inducing-fear-of-clowns. It does exist, but the word used above is not an accepted psychiatric term AFAIK. I wouldn't object to mentioning that some people fear clowns, but I would object to using "Coulrophobia" as if it were an accepted psychiatric term... or an assertion that it stems from Stephen King or John Wayne Gacy. I met someone in 85 or 86 who said they had been afraid of clowns since childhood, he was in his 50's and couldn't even look at a clown without freaking out. I don't think it deserves a huge mention here either, most a couple of lines... User:Pedant 17:20, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
This has to be one of the most outrageous cases of field professionals crafting a completely self-serving portrait of their field. You cannot possibly have an article on clowns without mentioning the fear that many people have of them. The comments listed here are indicative of the worst kind of ignorance about what an encyclopedia entry is; it sure as hell isn't a promotion for an occupation. This article should be reduced to a stub for the time being, then rebuilt properly.
24.222.64.85 07:07, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
---
In the Space To Care study aimed at improving hospital design for children, researchers from the University of Sheffield polled 250 children regarding their opinions on clowns; all 250 children in the study, whose ages ranged between four and sixteen, reported that they found clowns frightening and disliked clowns as part of hospital decor.
Interesting, but this doesn't really belong in the opening paragraph. I haven't removed it because I think a section of the article should briefly discuss dislike/fear of clowns, and include the findings of this study, so we can remove it from the introduction. 216.239.82.49 ( talk) 06:44, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Rodeo Clowns are also the punchline to a famous joke about the "Redneck Rodeo" where a man having intercourse with a woman from behind whispers in her ear that she is the worst he's ever had. He then sees if he can stay on for at least eight seconds and then his friends, the rodeo clowns, burst from the closet to protect him from the enraged woman. The great Oli Farahi had a long career as a rodeo clown, made famous by his technique of mushroom stamping the woman into submission.
Lucille Ball was a clown - this is not in dispute. However, I'd assert that she was a 'character' clown, not an 'auguste'. Someone reverted my change, so I'm bringing it here for discussion - Richardcavell 23:04, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
First, Lucille Ball is the performer, Lucy Ricardo is the character... ok got that? ... the character, Lucy Ricardo, is a clown, Lucille Ball is more than a clown. The clown is the character and not the performer. That distinction being made, and I'm sure I will get complaints that I'm wrong, but I assure you the distinction is important to this issue. (and I have more formal and informal study of clowning than most MDs have of medicine [yeah, I know about Original Research]) Lucy Ricardo, the character, played a clown in one episode of I Love Lucy, and that clown, in that episode was an auguste clown. (I'm referring to the scene in which she used a prop cello). "Lucy Ricardo" is a character clown. The character that her character played in the episode referred to above was an auguste. HOWEVER, Lucy Ricardo (the character) had many elements of the auguste, she took herself seriously, tried to appear to be distinguished and sophisticated, but was the butt of the joke in most cases. So rather than just characterise Lucy or Lucille as one or the other, I'd prefer a more thorough explanation of her multiple layers of characterization. Lucille Ball is a unique case, and deserves some extra lines here. User:Pedant 17:08, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Whatever solution there be, now Clown/ Circus clown is a horrible fork sitting here for a long time. Kudos to user:Error for nailing it down.
One evident thing is that first of all " Circus clown" must spin off the numerous bios contained within, into separate articles. I suggest the original contributors to do so, so that the literary glory would remain theirs.
One might argue that "circus clown" is not the same as, say, " party clown" (is there such an official profession?), but I would say that "circus clown" must remain in the main article, " Clown", since it is the most generic case, and other kinds of entertainers called "clown" must go elsewhere (if any). Mukadderat 02:00, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Also needs a link to Donald Rumsfeld. Maybe under Scary clown. Gzuckier 15:22, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Oppose merging, circus clowns are not the most generic case, or they wouldn't be Circus clowns, they would be clowns. (kosher pickles are not generic pickles, pickles are, fine art is not generic, art is, rock music is not generic, music is, etc...) We do need to have a section in Clown describing circus clowns, and linking to Circus clown of course, but the circus clown section was outgrowing nad dominating the clown article. It deserves its own page where it has room to grow without complaints that it is too long. User:Pedant 16:50, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
The section on Commedia dell'Arte names the Pierrot and Arlecchino. Then it discussed the Pierrot. But there's no further discussion the Arlecchino (Harlequin). Why is that? I notice there is some discusssion in the article on Commedia dell'Arte. 140.147.160.78 15:27, 6 November 2006 (UTC)Stephen Kosciesza
"According to circus historian Hovey Burgess, the three most import clowns historically were:" Then there are four clowns listed. Whatup with that? I'm guessing Pennywise doesn't belong, but I don't know enough to say. ChristinaDunigan 23:15, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
There's a lot of crap going on here. Isn't it about time the page was protected? 161.225.129.111 15:09, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
no
Stumbled on this article looking for information on the history of clowning, and aside from a multitude of heavily-POV style prose, especially in the introduction, I was baffled by the examples of each clown type. Why do examples of the whiteface type include Jerry Seinfeld, Ricky Ricardo, and Bugs Bunny? Either clown is being used as a synonym for comedian, or I missed something. These characters/comedians do not match the description immediately above them, with white makeup, etc. The article seems to miss an important distinction: "straight man" characters in comedy are not a subset of whiteface clowns, rather, whiteface clowns are a subset of straight man characters in comedy. I think this desperately needs clarification, and any examplesl isted should be actual "clowns" under the common definition, not any comedian or comedic character throught history that happens to resemble the style of some actual clowns. Dinoguy2 06:00, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Well, I removed the afro reference (right at the start) because it's obviously untrue and inaccurate. It's back - what gives?
PS. I also find it strange that the "fear of clowns" is not mentioned.
138.243.195.136 21:37, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Hmm, for some reason (I neither care for nor - admittedly - know about clowns) this "afro" thing really annoys me. I have no credentials, nor do I wish to become a Wikipedia member, but I'm *sure* it's an inappropriate description.
I'm trying to find a clown expert (if just for my own personal curiosity), but in the meantime I'm discussing the issue here: http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070529211610AAemJ1r
One of the answers is "fright wig" which instantly seems more appropriate.
The Fellowship of the Sad Clown? Is this a joke?«» bd( talk stalk) 00:03, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Please, no. This isn't a joke. This is one of a few pictures I have of their graffiti, but this is a group that I had the pleasurable experience of encountering during one of my extended stays in San Juan. I've done more in depth research, which is why I was actually considering breaking it off into it's own article. I just didn't want to release so much of my work into the public domain.
The image is a little distorted as a result of me putting it through Picasa's lighting filters and removing a shadow in photoshop that was covering the bottom half of the image. It shows the content fine, however. Jf1288 07:16, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Looks like something that is quite typical up here in New York City: a graffiti template that starts to pop up all over the place. It's pretty unremarkable. -- David Shankbone 14:54, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Should there not be some mention of geeks in this article? Weren't they the original 'fool' who, lacking a profession of any kind (and self-worth), did just about *anything* for coinage? -- 90.197.80.124 18:17, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Removed the following from the article due to it being original research (purely personal experience).----- Adimovk5 ( talk) 17:20, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
As a traditional circus clown this 'fear of clowns' is quite new to me. I have been clowning for over 40 years and in my past experiences, with the smaller shows and the larger shows, it was never apparent or a problem. Children would help us build up the Big Top (or the small top!) just for the joy and the free tickets and would chat to the clowns painting their boots or whatever. In fact, children would always seek out 'the clowns' asking 'how many are there and who are they' etc.
The problem must be the many newer clowns engaged outside of circus in Mix and Mingle, in Magic or whatever. I do consider the terms clown and auguste to mean circus and its ring (s).
There is and never was any reason for a child to be fearful of clown costuming or make up, if these are troublesome or offensive then it is the artiste who should review his/her appeal and not the child for the whole philosophy should be to please the child (and subsequently the parents).
Here in England we have certain ventures trading the titles 'circus' and 'clown' with an adult 'horror' angle that may be agreeable to student type humour but I do not feel it helpful or proper to misuse the words, especially 'clown' when the persons are using very tasteless humour indeed and is, again, more destructive to the word 'clown' that is suffering enough adversity surely. Let us keep the word clean and pure and wholesome and dependable for every young mind just simplistic slapstick fun.
Tom Sandow (Tomato)
14:28, 9 February 2008 Tom 'Slapstick' Sandow (Talk | contribs)
May I mention here my Life Diary currently running on the Circus Historical Society web-pages of circus experiences since 1940? Tom 'Slapstick' Sandow, 2nd March 2008 13th April 2008. Owing to another person register as Tom Sandow I wish to be known as Tommy Sandow. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tommy Sandow ( talk • contribs) 13:39, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
I just deleted a part of the first paragraph that said "many children think clowns are scary" i thought it was silly to have this in the first para. It is addressed later in the article. But to make the article better, i removed that small part of the intro. If anyone can think of a way to reincorperate this into the intro paragraph in a mopre informative way, go for it! -- Moss Ryder ( talk) 08:03, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
This article needs a section on the meaning of the clowns (gravediggers) in Shakepear's Hamlet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Oconnell usa ( talk • contribs) 14:48, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
In a major rewrite of the article, the history of clowns and the etymology of the word must be included.
My conjecture: in Shakespeare's age, the word "clown" meant a peasant -- an often jovial fellow, like the gravediggers in Hamlet. Later, the meaning of "clown" evolved to mean a jovial person, not necessarily a peasant, who told jokes and entertained. Only much later did "clown" come into its modern circus-character meaning. (See my write-up in "Send in the Clowns", where the meaning and background of this phrase is explained.)
Oconnell usa ( talk) 14:53, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I am trying to get a picture on but it got deleted. I am trying to get Clowns in South Africa recognised internationaly but the link was deleted and my picture of a white faced clown was also removed. Is this site not open to international editing. My picture image:zimbo.jpg was within the guidelines of what a white faced clown looks like. I am a well know clown in South Africa and mostly run non-profit and charity events for clowns in South Africa. CDC_Catia ( talk) 14:53, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
Extremely pale skin, big red nose (read: alcoholism), patched clothes, stereotypical Celtic names like Molly or Mickey, packing tons of people into a car for efficiency (exaggerated with small cars and too many people), etc. The "classic" Anglo-Saxon biased clown is just as offensive as blackface minstrels, but this isn't explained in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.213.144.221 ( talk) 21:00, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
This must be a strange personal 'mickey take' by the writer surely. Will this person also complain about Walt Disney with his Mickey Mouse? Does this imply that all Irish persons have mice in there homes? I have not worked with or seen a clown called Mickey, my name is Tomato which implys, I suppose, rotten fruit one way or another. The red nose is a traditional stage apparel seen many times away from 'clowns' altogether. By actors and comedians. It is just comedy don't you see? The only innofensive comedy would be done by a dead person one would suppose? No movement and no action. This person should get out more. Tommy Sandow, 19th August 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.40.112.33 ( talk) 15:48, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Anyway... The slight double standard of whiteface clowning in comparison to Blackface is a serious issue that no-one, including seemingly Wikipedia by this artice, takes seriously. Everything in Blackface is done "innoffencivly" outside of Minstreling... -- Kurtle ( talk) 11:38, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
I was just wondering if it is possible to add a section on birthday party clowns, after all these type of clowns make up a large percentage of clowns. We don't want the public thinking that all clowns belong to the circus. I will gladly take up this task if you wish as I am a well known birthday party clown in South Africa and have more than 10 years experience in the field -- JDab15 ( talk) 09:31, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
There seems to be a lot of it here. I don't edit this article, but I know vandy when I see it. Somebody fix it, please. Lou Sander ( talk) 02:30, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
Just watching an interview with him on TV and saw his article which doesn't have anything about newest effort "Fools Militia." Plus he claimed (joking? not sure since was half paying attention til he said it) that he's having trouble with US homeland security because of "militia" in the title. Anyway. For those interested in the topic who might find researching and putting more info on Jango, the militia etc on either page! :-) CarolMooreDC ( talk) 20:49, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
The text uses the terms "ur-manipulator" and "ur-victim". Where do these terms come from? In German "ur" means ancient, and is prefixed to many words (such as " ursuppe"), but I can't find an English meaning. Web searching "ur-victim" gets hits that all mean "your victim". Web searching "ur-manipulator" gets many hits on prior versions of this page. In context I an reading "ur" as "prototype", but where do these words come from? Randall Bart Talk 19:38, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
Per in-depth analysis in the section above. Tijfo098 ( talk) 13:27, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
Maybe, but two wrongs don't make it right. Edit warring over WP:WEASEL words is pretty WP:LAME. It's generally assumed that at least one individual has been identified by some expert as having a phobia/paraphilia and the like, or else the term would not have been proposed in the first place (we hope), so "some" as in "at least one" is more plausible than "many". This BBC article for instance does quote one such expert "Prof Paul Salkovskis, clinical director of the Maudsley Hospital Centre for Anxiety Disorders and Trauma, saw a patient in Yorkshire some years ago who feared clowns as one of a range of problems." As another comparison, there's a wide range of delusions, but not many are common enough to generate scientific publications. There's long way from a case study that seems to have been published only in the mass media to scientific acceptance (and estimates of prevalence). The scientific refs on (modern day UK) children dislike of clowns don't refer to it as a phobia (nor do they use coulrophobia). The "too scary" part appears to be media spin as discussed above. Tijfo098 ( talk) 21:17, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
I propose that this merge discussion is now closed with a consensus not to merge, as there is sufficient recent material (post the 1994 DSM-IV) that the term is indeed used by psychiatrists and psychologists, some of whom even claim or accept that many suffer from the phobia. Malleus Fatuorum 03:13, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
The block should be justustified in the talk page and should have a short term expiration.-- Sum ( talk) 10:34, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
french clowns seem to lack a wig and also seem to lack a white face. i dont have much knowledge about clowns from other countries though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.208.86.142 ( talk) 08:42, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
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Alayna.farrell (
talk) 21:58, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
can i edittt ?
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ON THIS PARAGRAPH
Examples of historical, clown-like comedic performers have been the pantomimus in ancient Greece, the Lazzi of Commedia dell'Arte, bouffons, court jesters, as well as the French mime tradition. On top of this there are many non-European clowning traditions (including clown-like figures in Japanese Kabuki theatre), North American native shamen traditions to consider which may or may not have influenced what we now think of as a clown in the Western world.
IT SHOULD BE SHAMAN NOT SHAMEN, because there is not such a thing as "North American native shamen", wiki shaman and shamen
Joaquin Gravel ( talk) 19:01, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
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Hello. I would like to make an addition to your page by adding a weblink reference of an example of a scary clown. The character I had in mind would be the clown from The Twisted Metal series. Thank you for reading.
JohnnyH5 ( talk) 03:53, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
This subsection is not relevant to this article. It it terminological rather than discussing persons or actions relevant to clowns or clowning. I have removed it. Robynthehode ( talk) 06:42, 10 October 2012 (UTC) I have removed this entry in the clown article again. It has no place in an article about entertainment. The section clearly stated that rodeo clowns are animal wranglers not entertainers. The primary function of a clown is entertainment, that of a rodeo clown animal wrangling. Therefore the rodeo clown section should continue to be excluded from the clown article. Instead it should be in a separate article 'Animal Wrangling' with a link from the clown article if the author wants. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Robynthehode ( talk • contribs) 16:46, 14 October 2012 (UTC) Ohnoitsjamie has reverted the section on rodeo clowns without giving any reasons. Please talk about this exclusion of the 'rodeo clown' section in these talk pages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.136.219.85 ( talk) 18:39, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
There is no reason for the revert of 'rodeo clowns' section back to its inclusion in the clown article. Rodeo clowns has its own page. Rodeo clowns have very little if nothing to do with clowns as entertainers. A link at the bottom of the page should suffice under ' See Also ' Robynthehode ( talk) 21:42, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
As no-one has come back about my comments above I have done what I suggested in the last comment on 21st Oct. I have removed the section 'Rodeo Clowns' and added a link in the see also section. Rodeo Clowns has its own page and this should suffice. If you do not agree please do not revert but discuss the reasons in this talk page first. Thanks. Robynthehode ( talk) 21:14, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
In North America, Clowns have been used as a "gimmick" for promotion of retail items on the TV, and they often work in the circus. I don't see any reference to this, and meteorologist Willard Scott went from being the "official" Clown for McDonald's franchise. After that he gained fame as the "weather man" on NBC. I was really surprised by seeing that this article was up for FA Status at some time! -- Leahtwosaints ( talk) 07:01, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
There's a lot of overlap between this and Circus clown (which is not only about circus clowns anyway). Should be merged? Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 10:08, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
> Should definitely be merged. Almost the same content. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.193.168.170 ( talk) 01:37, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
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Please add Vance Colvig Jr. as a North American clown in the hobo/bum section. He played the whiteface clown Bozo in the 1960s and acted in a number of films and TV shows using the bum clown persona. 24.11.169.223 ( talk) 13:25, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
Is that appropriate for the wiki? Is he a clown, literally, IRL? Or is this a political joke? I am American, so I have nothing to gain from it. I suggest that picture be taken off if there's no inherent connection. 67.3.128.1 ( talk) 02:10, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
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Please remove one section header. Either remove "Clown organizations" and make "Clowns International" the primary header (i.e. ==Clowns International==), or remove "Clowns International." You don't need a sub-section header that describes the whole section. And while you're at it, please fix the misspelled word "memorabilia." 65.210.65.16 ( talk) 14:41, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
I noticed this unusually long further reading section at the end of List of clowns. As the further reading is actually about clowns, not lists of clowns, I'm moving it here should anyone want to include it in the subject article. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 18:32, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
Further reading
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Famous Clowns
Contemporary clowns
Film clowns
Television clowns
Theatrical
References
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The article is, of course, completely broken (duly tagged since 2009). I added some historical material, but the "clown types" part is hard to get right. The article conflates the historical development with technical differences in makeup etc.
I suppose the entire point here is that Clown was a specific character in the early 1800s, i.e. the character of Grimaldi, as opposed to the (18th-century English variant of) Harlequin character.
But in parallel traditions, the roles of Harlequin and Clown are of course paralleled by Pierrot and Harlequin, so Harlequin is really found in both roles of the comedic duo.
This doesn't really matter, as "clown" became a generic term (for which we have the page circus clown) later in the 19th century, so that a wide variety of characters, presumably including Pierrot himself, can be labelled "clowns".
Because of this, it becomes convoluted to try and give a list of "clown types". If at all, this should be attempted from a contemporary perspective, without going into Commedia dell'arte. According to this random internet page (which cites as its source another, defunct, internet page), there are "three basic types" of clowns, "whiteface clown", "Auguste clown" and "sad tramps, happy hobos and other clown types". The article then goes on to explain that "whiteface" is really a type of makeup, a white base covering the entire face, which is used by at least two completely different types of clowns, and needless to say, the "third type", including as it does "other clown types" is heterogenous as well.
Ideally, whatever this article is going to do should be informed by a serious monograph on the topic. Failing that, I would arrange the material we have roughly as follows:
-- dab (𒁳) 12:27, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
I need to know for 2016 clown sightings.
Is it "...a person dressed as a clown..." or "...a clown..."?
I mean, once someone dresses like a clown, can then be described as a clown?
Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 06:52, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
In response to feedback here, I've posted at the article concerned. Cheers to you all. Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 05:18, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
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WOW, this article verges on complete original research! It's not badly written, but where are the sources? I'm suspecting this is the result of editors contributing their own knowledge. BashBrannigan ( talk) 19:55, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
Fatuorum 00:50, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
Meh, I'm not entirely sure what you two are arguing about, but the dislike (not necessarily fear/phobia--there's a distinction to be made) is sourced from study published in
Nursing Standard (according to
this Reuters story). It may very well be that this dislike is culture-bound. A psychologist interviewed by the BBC in their
coverage of that paper hinted to that "Very few children like clowns. They are unfamiliar and come from a different era. They don't look funny, they just look odd." I can't find the original article, and it may well require subscription. Per
WP:MEDRS, the journalistic reports of medical stories should be avoided in preference of the original articles when possible.
Tijfo098 (
talk) 01:47, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
The mass media focus on the fear of clowns in this paper appears to be questionable. In the authors' "leaflet for the professionals" [4] the only place where clowns are mentioned is in:
“ | Finding 1: Children and young people over 7 years old find hospital spaces too babyish.
What do children say? ‘I don’t like those curtain things with clowns and balloons. I think it’s a bit babyish’ (9 year old boy) [...] ‘The clown border.. Hated it, I hated it. Too childish. I don’t want childish borders’ (15 year old boy) |
” |
This doesn't seem to be fear, but dislike. The lead author, interviewed by the BBC, said "We found that clowns are universally disliked by children. Some found them quite frightening and unknowable." What proportion found them frightening is unclear. The Nursing Standard paper is not indexed by Pubmed [5]. Tijfo098 ( talk) 03:29, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
I spent some time checking into this. Nursing Standard is not a medical journal (it's more of a trade mag for nurses) and it didn't publish the Sheffield study (it quoted from it in a popular-style article that says approx. the same stuff as the Reuters article). Nursing Standard actually ran three articles:
Another article: [8] is informative, and gives some further promising cites. It does cite the wrong issue number for the Nursing Standard story (says issue 22:11 instead of issue 22.19 p. 11), which threw me for a while. It talks about a difference in performance styles between trained medical clowns, and normal circus-style clowns. I think this is a higher quality source than the first two Nursing Standard pieces or any of the popular-press stuff. I'm sure more can be found.
I believed the clown phobia story before without paying much attention, but at this point I think Rod is right and it's mostly a meme. I think it should be removed from the lede of Clown due to undue weight (it can be mentioned further in the article). Coulrophobia also seems like a mostly bogus article and IMO should be changed to redirect to a short section of Clown dealing with that subject. We should not write as if there is actually such a recognized phobia without MEDRS documentation. The current coulrophobia article's lede comes across like "this is a newly emerging area of clinical research" instead of "this is a bogus story that got thrown around in the press a few times". Treating a non-scientific subject as if it had scientific legitimacy is called "pseudoscience" (it doesn't even seem to rise to "fringe") and should be dealt with as such.
On the Malleus-Rodhullandemu thing: the acrimony between those editors is well known and I wish they'd disengage. Interaction style aside though, IMO Rod appears to be basically right about the content matters, and Malleus is being tendentious. Malleus's semi-threatening civility remarks toward Tijfo098 are also unimpressive. Arbcom wrote long ago, [9]
By that standard, Malleus is in no position to go around complaining about others for incivility. While only Tijfo098 used the markedly impolite word "clueless", the complex range of behaviors involved in interacting courteously with another person can't be captured by simplistic formulas like avoiding certain words. Malleus's discourtesy is apparent through this discussion so he can't reasonably bring a civility complaint with clean hands. Tijfo098 and Rodhullandemu are of course also being quite discourteous.
Finally, Clown Care should be rewritten to use real sources and be less spammy. Medical clown redirects there now, but maybe the direction should be switched. I start to beieve there are enough MEDRS to write a reasonable article about clowns in medicine. 71.141.88.54 ( talk) 20:55, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
Regards, 71.141.88.54 ( talk) 20:58, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
Nice "research dig", 71.141.88.54. My first impression on the "fear of clowns" being an overblown mass media meme seems even more justified now. MF does seem to "disagree" and lecture on policies for no good reason here. I'm adding a merge tag. Tijfo098 ( talk) 13:27, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
It redirects to "evil clown" which is already linked directly.
I can't do it myself due to the lock.
Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2620:0:1045:18:7160:6E50:4F33:28C4 ( talk) 09:05, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
Done. Thank you for noticing.
Dimadick (
talk) 13:18, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
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Please remove Gamzee Makara from the list of notable clowns. He is a fictional character and only tangentially related to actual clownery. His link redirects to the page for the comic he appears in and not his own and thus does not enable further learning about clowns. Idk how to make a consensus I've never done this before 140.147.166.135 ( talk) 15:27, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
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Melmann 17:25, 31 July 2019 (UTC)Moniker#Clowning contains some information, unfortunately completely unsourced, about clown names. If someone could locate sources, that could be a sensible addition to this article. -- Florian Blaschke ( talk) 18:47, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
In the last sentence of the History of clowns, instead of "North American native shaman" should be "North American native shaman". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joaquin Gravel ( talk • contribs) 03:42, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
In the last sentence of the History of clowns, instead of "North American native shaman" should be "North American native shaman". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joaquin Gravel ( talk • contribs) 03:43, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
Where's Marcel Marceau in this? The father of the extension into mime is missing! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.218.129.127 ( talk) 12:02, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
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There is a misspelled word/words in your context about the subject ‘clowns’ I wish to edit as this is important for the community to have no mistakes on their wiki text.Please respond their is also a punctuation error. Anonymouss551 ( talk) 07:37, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
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In the history section there is mention and a hyper link to clown society, the wording misunderstands the meaning of the term used. Clown Societies are not whole cultures/civilizations, but rather a formalized group (similar to a priesthood or even a club) that has a social standing.
Remove 'A society in which such clowns have an important position are termed clown societies' or rephrase to reflect the proper definition where society is limited to a functional part of a culture and can't be confused for a culture of its own. Kiwikoi ( talk) 17:01, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
{{
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template. About how to rephrase it.
Aaron Liu (
talk) 15:00, 11 August 2022 (UTC)