Battle of the Standard was a History good articles nominee, but did not meet the
good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be
renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject England, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
England on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EnglandWikipedia:WikiProject EnglandTemplate:WikiProject EnglandEngland-related articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Medieval Scotland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Medieval Scotland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Medieval ScotlandWikipedia:WikiProject Medieval ScotlandTemplate:WikiProject Medieval ScotlandMedieval Scotland articles
Battle of the Standard is within the scope of WikiProject Yorkshire, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to
Yorkshire on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project, see a list of open tasks, and join in discussions on the project's talk page.YorkshireWikipedia:WikiProject YorkshireTemplate:WikiProject YorkshireYorkshire articles
This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a
list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the
full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles
This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Middle Ages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
the Middle Ages on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Middle AgesWikipedia:WikiProject Middle AgesTemplate:WikiProject Middle AgesMiddle Ages articles
“The Battle of the Standard, sometimes called the Battle of Northallerton, in which English forces repelled a Scottish army, took place on 22 August 1138 on Cowton Moor near Northallerton in Yorkshire” is a little complicated, perhaps put “The Battle of the Standard, sometimes called the Battle of Northallerton, took place on 22 August 1138 on Cowton Moor near Northallerton in Yorkshire between the Scottish and the English”
Also, wikilink the Scottish and the English to the respective countries (as they were at the time) if such articles exist.
“The Scottish army were led by King David I of Scotland.” were?
Second paragraph of lead perhaps a shade confusing
There are other grammar problems in the article
Other areas are well written
We are three sub-sections into the larger “Battle of the Standard” section before we actual come to the battle, this seems a little disorganised.
2. It is factually accurate and verifiable. In this respect:
One of the most excellent references sections I’ve ever seen!
I would suggest you find the ISBN numbers for the books you ref’d from.
Good use of primary sources
3. It is broad in its coverage. In this respect :
Background, lead up, battle, aftermath, its all there, good job
5. It is stable, i.e. it does not change significantly from day to day and is not the subject of ongoing
edit wars. This does not apply to vandalism and protection or semi-protection as a result of vandalism, or proposals to split/merge the article content.
Very stable, aside from recent expansion by one main user, which is okay.
6. It contains
images, where possible, to illustrate the topic. In this respect:
Good use of recent images, and the tapestry is good too, all licences seem okay.
Are there any images from the battle, paintings, tapestries etc?
This is an unlucky article in a way, points 2->5 is passes on, and point 6 isn’t enough to hold it back, unfortunately with the issues mentioned in point one, I feel that I can’t award GA status to this article quite yet. You may think I’m being a little harsh, but the quality of GA articles is only as high as the most lenient reviewer! Good work on the article as a whole, just those few points to consider.
SGGH 10:30, 23 February 2007
Made some new fixes and renominated.
Cromdog 21:33, 21 October 2007 (UTC)reply
Helpful consideration
I think you should change all the "david"s to "King David". I was a little confused as to who David was.
Be a little more concise considering the intro paragraph. Its a little too detailed as to what happened.
Other than these, I think what SGGH said is all true. After these suggestions, I think this article is good enough for GA status.
Good friend100 17:28, 4 November 2007 (UTC)reply
Added ISBN numbers of refs
Rewrote the second paragraph of the lead
Changed a few of the 'David's later on to make it a bit clearer
I think the battle section needs an expansion. Its a little short.
Good friend100 20:35, 5 November 2007 (UTC)reply
GA again
I was tempted to do the review on this renom, but since I have my own current nomination in the section this is living in, and another review in that section on-hold, I decided not to. However, I just made several minor changes to the article, on which I would have commented had I done the review. The new section titles I'm not too happy about, particularly under the new "prelude to battle", so regular editors should amend as necessary... just remember, don't start a section title with a preposition (so no "the", "an", or "a"), and don't repeat the article's name as a section header. I think I got the endash-hyphen-emdashes all sorted out, and I used ref names to avoid some repetitions. I think I saw some other MOS and prose stuff when I read this last night, but can't spot them now. There remain paragraphs that need citing, though. Hope this helps, when another reviewer gets here to do it properly.
Carre 22:15, 4 November 2007 (UTC)reply
"A" and "the" are articles, not prepositions. A scholarly work in front of me now has seven sentences starting with articles on only one page.
Deacon of Pndapetzim (
Talk) 23:23, 4 November 2007 (UTC)reply
OK, so I got the word wrong. See
WP:HEAD though, which is what applies, not what you have in front of you. I give up.
Carre 23:30, 4 November 2007 (UTC)reply
Yes, it is ugly for sections titles to begin with the definite article (though "a" if inspired would probably be necessary). You see, I didn't know if you meant "section header" for "sentences" or "preposition" for "article"; you see, lots of people will advise not to begin sentences with prepositions, so you'll understand it wasn't a pedantic correction.
Deacon of Pndapetzim (
Talk) 00:15, 5 November 2007 (UTC)reply
Yes, you're right, and I apologise for being a touch short; I don't usually mistake my grammar terms, but it's late here... was just trying to help the article, and I know my way around MOS pretty well by now. Where I said "section header", I meant the stuff with == or === around it.. Where I said preposition, you are completely right and it should have been article, and I put it down to me being tired!
Carre 00:25, 5 November 2007 (UTC)reply
Wish I had known those tidbits about the MOS...I just came across this article through
WP Military History and decided to fix up the few things that the first GA reviewer had mentioned. Since he didn't mention those MOS things, I didn't realize that was a problem...thanks for the help and tip-off.
Cromdog —Preceding
comment was added at 00:40, 5 November 2007 (UTC)reply
Unfortunately, Cromdog, this is both the strength and the weakness of GA. Depending on who you get as a reviewer, you may have an easier or a harder ride. I've seen
SGGH's work in the past, and he comes out with good stuff; I, however, consider myself one of the stricter GA reviewers (but there are many who are more strict), but then I play in the FA space mostly these days. I hope that my small changes help you get through GA review without too much trouble, because this is a pretty good article as it stands; of course it can do with improvements, but that could be said of even the very best.
Carre 22:49, 6 November 2007 (UTC)reply
Where an article is not an outright pass, but requires relatively minor additional work to be
brought up to GA standard, I will normally place it on hold - meaning that editors have around a
week to address any issues raised. As a precaution to prevent failure by default should this
occur, if editors are likely to be unavailable over the next ten days or so, feel free to leave
a message on my
talk page so we can arrange a more convenient time for
review. Regards,
EyeSereneTALK 19:14, 16 November 2007 (UTC)reply
GA review (hold)
I have now reviewed this article under the six
Good article criteria, and have
commented in detail on each criterion below:
The article is well-written; the prose flows logically and is pleasant to read, and there are no significant manual of style deficiencies (however, see 2 below). It is not currently a GA criterion, but we would recommend to editors to use the templates on
WP:CITET when formatting references and citations; this ensures standardisation and allows them to be processed by bots for tasks such as tracking down dead web-page links and ISBN conversion.
This is the only area that needs additional work. There are a few sections of text that need in-line citations, and one or two instances of possible commentary:
Cites needed for:
"Many of David's Norman vassals abandoned him at this point, perhaps shocked by the king's huge "barbarian" army, but more likely compromised by dual loyalty to Kings Stephen and David." (according to whom?)
"The English knights dismounted for the battle and decided to fight on foot. A line of archers stood at the base of the English line, with the dismounted knights behind and the civil militias to either side and behind the knights." (this could also be merged with the previous paragraph, as it is rather short)
"after their custom gave vent thrice to a yell of horrible sound, and attacked the southerns in such an onslaught that they compelled the first spearmen to forsake their post; but they were driven off again by the strength of the knights, and [the spearmen] recovered their courage and strength against the foe. And when the frailty of the Scottish lances was mocked by the denseness of iron and wood they drew their swords and attempted to contend at close quarters" (all quotations used in an article need to be explicitly cited)
Taken care of
The entire "Aftermath" section is only cited once at the end; however this is no problem as long as that reference covers the paragraph's entire content.
It all comes from Oram, yes.
Additionally:
There are a few sentences (such as that in my first point above) that, unless they are cited and very carefully written, will come over as editor commentary. Generally this can be avoided by either leaving them out altogether, or by sourcing and rewording to name the person that originally said/wrote that. I think (excluding the instance already noted) you have generally avoided this trap and I'll let the others pass... apart from the very last sentence of the article. This needs either removing or attributing (eg "According to X, ...") and citing.
All images used are appropriately captioned and bear a suitable license.
As a result of the above minor issues I have placed the article on hold. This gives editors up to a week to address the issues raised (although in some circumstances the hold period can be briefly extended). To help with tracking, editors may like to strike through each comment as it is dealt with, or use the template {{done}} after each comment.
Feel free to
contact me if you have any questions or are ready for a re-review. In any case I'll check back here in seven days (around 26th November). All the best,
EyeSereneTALK 13:44, 19 November 2007 (UTC)reply
2nd GA review (fail)
Since this article has now been on hold for four weeks (including the arranged extension) and not all the issues above have been addressed, I have reluctantly failed this GA nomination. Please feel free to renominate the article at
WP:GAN when ready, or to take this to
WP:GAR if you feel there have been problems with my conduct of this review. Regards,
EyeSereneTALK 10:31, 17 December 2007 (UTC)reply
Maps
It would be good if there were some maps in this article.
1. To show where the battle is
2. To show the border of the Kingdom before the war and
3. To show the territory eventually gained by David in the war after the battle.
I think this needs a re-think
I bumped into this, and I'm afraid I had a considerable POV issue with it, as might be expected from its narrow reference base (and my moniker, although the ancestral hut was somewhere near
Heavenfield,
Wall or
Acomb- when Richard of Hexham speaks of the Abbey as a refuge for the poor people of the surrounding countryside, that probably includes my kin)) Viewed from the other side of the hill,
David's campaigns may well have made a stronger Scotland, but he did so by launching slave raids into the territory of a man to whom he repeatedly promised not to do such things, and onto the doorstep of someone who had been his true man for over a decade. The chroniclers who point out the horrors are accused of Norman race hate
(the Life of St Ailred - they made him a saint for being a kindly old soul who tried to see good in every one - specifically notes him speaking in his native tongue Hasten fer Crist luv which doesn't look much like Norman-French to me)
in my copy of Lynch he describes the emotion of the chroniclers as 'shock' not 'hate'
and/or having an imperialist-hegemonist world view
and the vassal who renounces his homage because he chooses to defend his birthplace from arson rape and pillage rather than go along with a r & p is described as 'abandoning' David, and being 'compromised'. I think it should be possible to take a line which without going into full How Horatius Kept the Bridge mode does not merely regard Bruce's decision from the point of view of Bruce being a sad disappointment to Our Hero
For the battle itself, there are various sources with different versions of the order of events; when the sources are systematically compared it looks to me that there has been a certain amount of pick and mix to construct a sequence casting greater lustre on the performance of the Galwegians than any of the individual sources do <br />
Not a significant defeat because David still had an army with which he could retake the offensive, (but does not appear to have), and it didn't change anything, because he got the same terms after as he could have got before. If those are were his success criteria, surely he could have satisfied them by never crossing the Tees??? Whatever else he was after he stopped trying to get it after the Standard
If the sources are consulted, there were also a significant number of basic factual errors.
Wark was linked to Wark in Tynedale, not the famous Wark-on-Tweed which is the one in question here
David seemed to be forever seizing Carlisle despite having been given it the last time he launched an unprovoked attack
Bamburgh never fell to David
Thurstan did not command at the Standard
Not making the first one requires a bit of contextual understanding ("Carrum" = Carham = Wark-on-Tweed), but the last 2 undermined the article more than somewhat
Having accessed a copy of Anderson' s 'Annals', I now appreciate that pick-and-mix may be a bit unfair: many of the problems with the battle narrative arise because of Anderson's presentation of the story is itself pick-and-mix by sticking together bite-size chunks of various chronicles, which creates a number of heffalump-traps for the unwary, and weakens the cross-checking and context-checking capabilities should anyone be so old-fangled as to want to compare & contrast sources before telling the definitive tale--
Rjccumbria (
talk) 00:16, 28 August 2008 (UTC)reply
New Version posted: Work Complete ?
No of course it never is. I claim no ownership, but if people think there are errors of fact or definite POVs where there shouldn't be, please advise, perhaps not only the article but my own understanding would benefit from the correction--
Rjccumbria (
talk) 00:23, 3 September 2008 (UTC)reply
Assessment comment
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Battle of the Standard/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following
several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
As it has been through a couple of GA reviews I would think that not too much work would allow a resubmission - though the goal posts may have moved on since last try.
Last edited at 22:52, 15 April 2008 (UTC).
Substituted at 09:14, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on
Battle of the Standard. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit
this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).
If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
this tool.
I think it is over-simplistic to constantly talk about "the English army" or Scotland versus England. Many English men fought against Stephen. Eustace fitz John, justiciar of Northern England and custodian of Bamburgh, and his followers fought at the battle alongside the men of Cumbria and Teviotdale on the side of King David in support of Empress Matilda. See, for example,
P. Dalton, ‘Eustace fitz John and the politics of Anglo-Norman England: the rise and survival of a twelfth-century royal servant’, Speculum, 71 (1996), 358–83
and
Eustace fitz John (d. 1157) by T. F. Tout, revised by Paul Dalton