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How is it that any mention Troy Middleton is missing from the article? Middleton decided to hold Bastogne without consultation with higher authority - he was the highest authority on the battlefield at that time. Patton later said it was "a stroke of genius." -- from the 87th Division's website. I've read Middleton's autobiography which treats the battle in great detail. Middleton commanded the VIII Corps and decided the strategy upon which the whole battle was won. His participation on the battlefield is perhaps worthy of some mention. Frank2040 ( talk) 06:45, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
Gentlemen:
At the top right portion of the article is a photo captioned: American soldiers of the 75th Division photographed in the Ardennes during the Battle of the Bulge." However, my father believes that the soldiers shown in that photo are of himself and his squad, members of G Company, 309th Regiment, 78th Division.
My question to you is, how certain are you that the photo is of the 75th Division, rather than the 78th? If you are certain it is of the 75th, what is the source of your information? Thank you for your consideration.
Ryan M. Fountain [email protected] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.228.123.198 ( talk) 18:28, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
The variation of English used in the article is pretty inconsistent, so if no-one objects, I'm going to be bold and change the remainder to British English per WP:RETAIN (see first non-redirect edit), Lord Spongefrog, (I am Czar of all Russias!) 12:27, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
Perhaps a review of WP:ENGVAR would be a good start. It talks about this very topic.-- Jojhutton ( talk) 16:20, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
Neither should it be written in German, except when naming units, particular types of weapons, etc. In the section Kg. Peiper Drives West, someone used the word (and link) Rollbahn in the phrase, getting back onto his assigned Rollbahn. The link is to an old railroad network. I know enough German to get the pun, but everyone might not, and would waste time on a link to figure it out. Since this fits under Wiki's suggested guidelines of not using foreign words, I am going to change assigned Rollbahn to assigned route. It's easy enough to change back one word if you don't agree. (I don't have the time or inclination to look through the logs to see who put the German word in.) Laburke ( talk) 02:19, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Despite these remarks, the overall impression given by Montgomery, at least in the ears of the American military leadership, was that he had taken the lion's share of credit for the success of the campaign, and had been responsible for rescuing the besieged Americans
Well, it's true, he did. Eisenhower put Montgomery in overall charge of the battle and SHAEF then 'forgot' to tell the press - see Operation Epsom - Normandy, June 1944 by Tim Saunders - Battleground Europe series - Leo Cooper - 2003 ISBN 0-85052-954-9
The fact that Eisenhower put Montgomery in charge of the situation tells the reader something about how bad it actually was. Don't you think that if anyone else could have gotten them out of the mess they were in Eisenhower wouldn't have used them.
The British had to drive their tanks all the way down from the Belgian coast by road to get to the battle, and all some higher-ranking Americans (who should have known better) did was moan about them taking their time. The Belgian coast is at the other end of Belgium to where the battle was taking place, to those for-whom geography is not a strong point. [1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.112.67.206 ( talk) 20:33, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
The various sectors of the battle are generally understood as the north, center, and south, which were attacked by three different German armies. (e.g., see the maps accompanying the article.) I've reorganized the article based on this. I've also noted several paragraphs needing citations. It's hard to see how this was ever a Featured Article. Must get vandalized a lot. -- btphelps ( talk) ( contribs) 18:23, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
The article mentions 3,000 civilian deaths, and I don't know if that figure includes deaths in Luxembourg. I would like to see a section on the role of civilians, not out of pity for what they had to suffer. The article would only be a greater target for vandalism if eye-witness accounts were given. Besides, most of these accounts are recorded in French. Civilian participation ranged from amusing accounts of Belgian women giving all their sheets and any white clothing to Americans for camouflage, amusing if you weren't a soldier wearing dark clothes in the snow. There are accounts of civilians held up, then shot in view of the American engineers to make them not blow up the bridges on the Amblève river. 3000 civilian deaths doesn't sound very much compared to the American deaths, but consider that the part of the Ardennes where the Battle took place, is sparsely populated. Laburke ( talk) 03:27, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
The son of FDR was head of photo reconnaissance at the time of the bulge.His book "As He Saw It",Duell,Sloan and Pearce,NY,1946,page 225-226 states' "--just before December sixteenth, I was granted a --furlough. Those orders came through just before the sixteenth;it was on the sixteenth that Hitler launched his breakthrough in the Ardennes. When the news was flashed back to the Pentagon, I was flabbergasted." " The breakthrough meant-I feared-that my outfit was gravely remiss" "only when my temporary duty in Washington was over,and I had flown back to the ETO,did I find that in fact our reconnaissance had been perfectly up to snuff,that the information on the massing of enemy troops behind the Ardennes had all been satisfactorily collated and passed on "through channels"--and then held up or ignored by an unthinking G-2 officer" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.128.53.31 ( talk) 03:31, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
Dear fellow Wikipedia users, the German article on the Ardennenoffensive cites casualty numbers that are lower on both the American and the German sides:
German: 17,236,16,000,34,439,67,675. American: 19,276,21,144,47,139,87,559.
The numbers are for killed in action, missing-in-action/captured, wounded, and total respectively. The German article isn't properly cited, but is backed by a considerable number of both American and German sources ranging in publishing dates from 1945 to 2007.
The number of casualties for the Germans in the German article only slightly exceeds the 67,200 total-estimate here-cited in 2003 book by Gordon R. Sullivan, General, United States Army, Chief of Staff. The "Battle of the Bulge Remembered 60 Years Later" here-cited which gives a figure of 100,000 (awfully-round) is by Donna Miles, of the U.S. Army American Forces Press Service, basically a PR service for the Army. The article is not a scholarly one, and carries a public relations without any sources of it's own. MacDonald, Charles B. (1997!), A Time for Trumpets: The Untold Story of the Battle of the Bulge, appears to be misreferenced as a 1998 source and gives the same 100,000 estimate. The book was published much after the authors death (Charles B. MacDonald - December 4, 1922–November 23, 1990 - was a former Deputy Chief Historian...) and therefore must have been written much earlier.
There is a high discrepancy between the U.S. sources, but the most prominent is that the former Chief of Staff of the U.S. Army (in service up to 2005) appears with more recent data and seems to overwhelm the other two in terms of credibility (which is what I'm asking to discuss.)
I cannot verify the German sources due to my lack in German language, and Soviet post-war sources that I can read, as a Russian-speaker, I fear have highly-bloated figures due to Communist propoganda - although that is my opinion, and I ask you to disregard it.
The fear I have is that as history gets written, "to-the-victor-go-the-spoils", and the truth behind solid statistics and numbers may be forgotten.
I am asking someone with access to more credible sources to discuss. If you have access and can read any of the German sources, please note which ones are referenced in relation to the figures given, and what discrepancies appear German/American sources given in that article. 173.79.151.143 ( talk) 01:51, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
Please include an external link to the web site http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Bulge#External_links The name of the external link is http://www.veteransofthebattleofthebulge.org This is the official web site of the Veterans of the Battle of the Bulge. Bulgereader ( talk) 11:05, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
Why is it "Free French Forces"? By December France was completely liberated (excepting the pockets of Germans in several ports and parts of eastern France). Also, although I'm by no means certain, they stopped using the flag with the Cross of Lorraine.
-Talon
Ok, this is confusing me, the article refers to this as "the largest and fiercest battle of the war." Now, what is this referring to? In terms of men it was quite certainly not, with kursk, for example, having nearly 2-3 times as many men involved. Does it mean in terms of the land involved in it? Because that seems very vague. And the "fiercest" seems like a subjective measure at best, not fit for an encyclopedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.92.228.4 ( talk) 13:29, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
There are numerous references in the articles (including one section heading) of the Germans moving or attacking Eastward. Surely they were attacking Westward? 70.61.41.218 ( talk) 02:48, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
Most of the photos and maps have been moved to cover portions of the text. I've noticed this in other articles. Why is that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.32.20.166 ( talk) 15:25, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
Please, correct me if I am wrong, but the bulk of Hitler's forces were always in the East. This sentence should be modified, because it is simply misleading.-- Paul Siebert ( talk) 04:01, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
This page should be written in so-called 'British English', or what I would call proper English, firstly because it is about a battle in Europe, and the English that is used in Europe is 'British English', and secondly, if you're going to quote the rules of wikipedia, an article should be written in the form of English that the original author used. The first person to create this page was a user called 'Tarquin' who is British. VenomousConcept ( talk) 12:23, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
I've created an article on the Battle of Clervaux. Interested editors may want to link it from this article, it seems reasonably notable and relevant. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 05:35, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
For those who are still confused 65 years later, could an American perhaps contribute an explanation of what is meant by the response 'Nuts' in this context? The only explanation of it that I can think of is, "Bugger, we've lost." Evidently that is not what is meant, because they didn't surrender and it is regarded as a morale-lifter to the troops. GoldenRing ( talk) 12:05, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia, the German troop vary from 200,000 to 500,000. Is 500,000 is a bit exaggerated? According to the book 12thSS Panzer Division, there are only 18 German divisions. More than half are Volksgrenadier, also the German division are understrenght. The book also claim the number of US division initially is 55. I believe that the german number are exaggerated and the US number are too low. Seriously, 55 division and 384 artillery guns. On the German report, their artillery is outnumbered by those of the US ten to one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.108.24.168 ( talk) 14:43, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
Can any one tell me the name of the panzer division involve during the battle? 1800 tanks for the German seem to be much bigger than what it really is. There are only 8 German tanks division, and the number of tanks in each german divisions are much smaller than those of the allies. For example, the US armour division consist of only tanks, while the Panzer division has its own artillery, infantry, repair, recon and what ever.
An anonymous editor has mentioned that the strength quotes shown in the battle box, while cited (sort of), may bear further examination. A couple of examples will illustrate the issue. The U.S. tank quote of 1,300 is based on the 1st Army tank strength but apparently does not include 3rd Army tanks, or tanks of the British Army. Cole's quote of 1,800 German tanks is later mentioned as 1,700 to 1,800 tanks and assault guns -- a key change in the data definition. I am also surprised by the variance in the German personnel strength quote -- 300,000 personnel. I am going to ask at MILHIST to see if anyone is interested in fleshing (flushing) out better data. I also believe it would help to provide any quotes based on particular dates rather than trying to estimate total quotes for the entirety of the battle. W. B. Wilson ( talk) 18:27, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
This: "During World War II, most U.S. black troops still served only as truck drivers and as stevedores.[94] In the midst of the Battle of the Bulge, General Eisenhower was severely short of replacement troops for existing military units—all of which were totally white in composition. Consequently, he made the decision to allow African American soldiers to pick up a weapon and join the white military units to fight in combat for the first time.[94] More than 2,000 black soldiers had volunteered to go to the front.[95] This was the first step toward a desegregated United States military."...is misleading and not totally accurate. There were black, albeit segregated, American combat units in Europe during WWII, so "to fight in combat for the first time" is not accurate, likewise with "all of which were totally white in composition". I suggest a more accurate wording change be made. For example, see 761st Tank Battalion (United States) and Tuskegee Airmen. FYI, the 761st was part of Patton's Third Army, which took part in The Bulge. And according to this in the 761st wiki article: "During the Battle of the Bulge, German soldiers who had raided American warehouses were reported to have disguised themselves as Americans guarding the checkpoints in order to ambush American soldiers. Patton solved this problem by ordering black soldiers, including the 761st, to guard the checkpoints, and gave the order to shoot any white soldiers at the checkpoints who acted suspiciously.[4]" the 761st DID serve at The Bulge. PumpkinSky talk 02:40, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
The current article starts with a full two paragraphs about the different names the battle has been known by, their origins, and so on. Shouldn't a big article like this start with a nice, overview paragraph that includes brief statements about: dates, location, purpose, outcome, significance etc? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.42.29.35 ( talk) 20:03, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
An editor keeps adding a section on American war crimes. Neither source backs up the assertion. It appears that the Germans weren't allowed to surrender after using local citizens as human shields/sacrifices. The sources make no claim of any war crimes nor any POWs. ( p. 303 of this book)
I've left a warning for
synthesis on the editor's talk page but thought I'd leave a note here for posterity.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 01:10, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
The 108,000 casualties suffered listed in US DOD "Army battle casualties and nonbattle deaths in World War II" cited in this article refers to total casualties in the Ardennes-Alsace Campaign, which includes two German operations, "Wacht am Rhein" and "Norwind", while the Battle of the Bulge in this article only refers to the former. I submit that this distinction should be mentioned to avoid confusion. Thank you for the good work. Jonathan Chin — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.135.100.102 ( talk) 00:44, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
I revised the following... Despite determined German attacks, however, the perimeter held. The German commander, Lt. Gen. Heinrich Freiherr von Lüttwitz, [1] requested Bastogne's surrender. [2] When Brig. Gen. Anthony McAuliffe, acting commander of the 101st, was told of the Nazi demand to surrender, in frustration he responded, "Nuts!" After turning to other pressing issues, his staff reminded him that they should reply to the German demand. One officer, Lt. Col. Harry Kinnard, noted that McAuliffe's initial reply would be "tough to beat." Thus McAuliffe wrote on the paper, which was typed up and delivered to the Germans, the line he made famous and a morale booster to his troops: "NUTS!" [3] That reply had to be explained, both to the Germans and to non-American Allies. [notes 1] ref group=notes - All military communications were encoded and the most basic cipher was/is Simple(74) English(74) Gematria(74) with the key:(74) A=1...Z=26. Nuts = N14+U21+T20+S19 = 74. GOD=7_4, 7/4=July 4th or 7 April 30 AD, Good(7__4) Friday with Jesus(74) the Messiah(74) on the Cross(74).</ref> - Brad Watson, Miami 71.196.11.183 ( talk) 14:01, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
This article is a good candidate for conversion to {{ sfn}} templates, as it already is using Harvard style citations. Using the sfn template means that the <ref> tags can be omitted, and any citations that are used more than once are automatically collated. Improvements can be undertaken with the online sources as well. If there are no objections, the work will be started sometime in the next week or two. Please post any comments or discussion in the meantime. Regards, -- Dianna ( talk) 14:19, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
They just seem a little excessive. Do we have quotes from the sources to back them up? In addition the US Green series place the American losses as 471 tanks in December, did they really loose 300 more tanks counterattacking routing forces? - EnigmaMcmxc
The UK Official history places the American losses at 75,482 (8,497 killed, 46,170 wounded, and 20,905 missing) although the US Green series does appear not to provide a total figure. Is there any information on why this figure is several thousand lower than the sources used?
This is obviously wrong, despite having 6 sources. There were many battles on the Eastern Front that involved many times the number of soldiers and casualties as were involved in the Ardennes Offensive (Battle of Kursk, Battle of Stalingrad, Second and Third Battles of Karkhov, Siege of Leningrad). What is actually meant here and what do the sources actually say? The battle was the largest and bloodiest battle on the Western Front? The largest battle fought by Americans? If they are saying something respect to the whole war there must be some other qualification, such as the largest and bloodiest fought over a one month period or something such as that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.231.187.123 ( talk) 16:25, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
The Field Marshall became exasperated with Eisenhower for several reasons, and the main one led to the tension over a shift in maintenance supplies. Montgomery had been in France in the First World War, and knew the slaughter a broad front of attrition would bring, and how it would prolong the war. Eisenhower having never been in battle, yet taking command of all land forces from Montgomery led immediately to a fiasco. He had no effective communications, his HQ were in Versailles, he had no concept of strategic or tactical battle planning, and functioned as a "get along" fellow, keeping peace between commanders. During the planning of Operation Comet, which became Operation Market, which finalised as Operation Market Garden, Montgomery attempted to impress upon Eisenhower the importance of giving the enemy, "a good crack," by putting all one's force behind a lightning push. This required maintenance supplies. After some disagreement, Eisenhower relented, promised Monty the supplies, then immediately backtracked when Bradley complained. Hence, Operation Market Garden (OMG) was only a limited success, and did not get the Allies into the Ruhr. The 3-front plan was actually Bradley's, encouraged by Patton, to whom Bradley remained subservient, though superior in rank. This led to a debacle where no "grip," or tight control of any front--apart from Montgomery's sector once he was given command North of the Ardennes at the onset of Bulge, as acknowledged by German commanders postwar. The basic problems Montgomery faced with SHAEF were communications (Bradley failed to make contact with his field commanders during most of the entire battle), Ike's lack of ability when it came to warfare, Bradley's out-of-character jealousy and animosity, Patton's egging on of reckless wastage of the general soldiery, and several factors which counterpointed America's claim it had, "Come into its own," during the war. It was not ego or boast--Monty was a professional attempting to do a job as efficiently as possible. He warned Ike something would happen, which SHAEF not only ignored, but ridiculed, for months, and officers such as Bradley, Eisenhower, Patton, their AsDC, and the American Press Corps worked to characterise Monty as the one at fault. Calling it a squabble over supplies is shallow, Amercentric, and uninformed. Fix the damned thing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.242.126.11 ( talk) 02:05, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
It would really be a useful addition to this article if the number of German and of civilian casualties in this series of battles was added. I'm sure this information can be found in some source, there is so much literature on WWII. 63.143.229.182 ( talk) 23:07, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
The text in the picture on the first page of the "Battle of the Bulge: article is in error. The 117th Infantry Regt was in the Battle of the Bulge, but if you will check your archives you will find that the 117th Infantry Rgt. was Tennessee National Guard instead of North Carolina National Guard. The 117th was part of the 30th Inf. Div. I know this as my father and uncle were both members of the 117th. I was also a memeber of the 117th Inf. from 1963-1969. I hope that you change this text. The 117th Inf. had a proud history in WW1 & WW2. The 117th Rgt. Crest had the 3 stars from the Tennessee State Flag and the words "Break Through" it's motto for helping to break the Hindenburg Line in WW1. The 117th is no longer active in Tennessee. I have met a lot of 117th veterans, now many of them deceased, who were extremely proud of their service in the 117th Inf. and the 30th "Old Hickory" Division. Please correct this article.
Thanks,
Paul D. Bullington TN Air National Guard (Ret.) Former member of HQ & HQ Co. 3Bn. 117th Infantry Tennessee National Guard — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pdbull ( talk • contribs) 05:15, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
The 500,000 number of strenght for the Germans was recently added by an IP again. The problem is, that this number definitely include Nordwind too (3 of the 4 sources given state on the same page that German casualties are at 120,000 - over 130,000 men, so its obvious that they include Nordwind too). From the last discussion in archive 3 we came to the conclusion, that the box just should contain bulge, and not Nordwind. So I am removing this number again. StoneProphet ( talk) 22:56, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Wacht am Rhein map (Opaque).svg will be appearing as picture of the day on June 26, 2013. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2013-06-26. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. Thanks! — Crisco 1492 ( talk) 23:17, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
Legend:
Information box says hundreds of German planes were destroyed, what about US plane losses? Ovsek ( talk) 15:23, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
The article only gives cursory treatment to the Allied counteroffensive part of the battle after presenting long passages of text about German offensive operations. Combat like that of Lutrebois is not mentioned at all. This can be addressed with edits, but I'd like to hear what other editors think. In its present state, the article is already lengthy.
I don't like the section "German counteroffensive" -- the section title is borderline misleading, and the German surprise air attack to the north is presented in tandem with the Nordwind Offensive as if they were part and parcel of the same operation. Same front, okay; but I'm not convinced there was much operational binding of the two. Nordwind itself seems to get almost too much mention for an article about the Battle of the Bulge, it seems like it should be mentioned in passing -- pointing out that movement of U.S. troops to the south in response to the Bulge improved German prospects for the Nordwind Offensive. Comments ? W. B. Wilson ( talk) 04:30, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
In February 2012, user StoneProphet and I looked up a fair amount of material to establish good strength, reinforcement, and casualty figures for both sides with regards to this article. Although our efforts were diligent, some of the figures are simply not known to exact totals, and thus a range is given for the German casualty figures along with the sources providing those figures. Since February 2012, a couple of edits were made to the German casualties figure.
This one was made on 25 February. Unfortunately, no citation was provided and the IP contributor stopped editing Wikipedia within a month of making the edit.
This one was made on 16 December. It breaks out German casualties by category. Again, unfortunately, no source is provided. Worse, the total provided in this case was nowhere near the total provided by the 25 February edit.
Edits of this kind are welcome if they are sourced, and the source is considered reliable. Otherwise, they will be reverted. Concerns and questions about the German casualty figures can always be discussed on this talk page.
A comment on the quoted figure of 84,834 German casualties (from the edit of 25 February). This figure can be found on many internet sites, such as The Germans had 84,834 casualties including 15,652 dead, 27,582 MIA and 41,600 wounded. I have yet to see a firm source although the sites almost always quote the information as being from the "German High Command". Notably, a figure almost exactly the same, but minus 3,000, is given as a contemporary German estimate, the difference being the total of dead is quoted at 12,652 -- this mentioned in L. F. Ellis' Victory in the West, Volume 2, page 195. (This work is part of the United Kingdom's official history of the war.) But what is notable here is that Ellis accurately characterized the figure as a contemporary estimate. By the time the worldwide web arrived, this estimate was presented as an accurate total with exact losses by category. The problem is, of course, that the exact losses are not known and these figures were, and remain, an estimate formed by primary research. It is because of situations like this that the determination of casualties for battles remains problematic.
W. B. Wilson ( talk) 15:13, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
This article has been revised as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. Diannaa ( talk) 01:48, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
Hi,
I am a brand new contributor so I cannot make any changes myself. I would point out the following:
1. The text "The defenders, led by the 7th Armored Division and including the remaining regiment of the 106th U.S. Infantry Division, with elements of the 9th Armored Division and 28th U.S. Infantry Division, all under the command of Gen. Bruce C. Clarke" is incorrect. Bruce Clarke commanded Combat Command B of the 7th Armored Division and was under the command of the Division commander Robert Hasbrouck. The remnants of the 106th were under the command of Alan Jones. So it was a joint command under the two division commanders.
2. The text "At Montgomery's orders, St. Vith was evacuated on 21 December" is incorrect. The US troops (CCB 7th Armored Division) were driven from St. Vith on 21 December. The CCB 7th Armored Division did fall back to positions west of St. Vith on 21 December.
3. Montgomery did order the withdrawal of all forces ( 7th Armored Division, remaining 106th U.S. Infantry Division, elements of the 9th Armored Division and 28th U.S. Infantry Division). The order was given on 22 December with the withdrawal taking place on 23 December.
The above can be referenced to Cole as follows.
1. Command St. Vith forces. Pages 393-394
2. Montgomery's order to withdraw. Pages 412-413 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sports fan 475 ( talk • contribs) 01:00, 17 June 2014 (UTC) Sports fan 475 ( talk) 01:20, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
A long quote from Montgomery has been added to the Controversy at high command section. This is a bulk WP:Primary source, where Wikipedia relies on secondary sources. We shouldn't expect readers to analyze this full speech themselves. Can we replace this with some sourced synopsis? If not, maybe it should simply be removed. Really, the speech itself isn't significant; it's the interpretations of it by the people at the time (which, in my mind, seems more based on Monty's previous rep than the actual words he chose). -- A D Monroe III ( talk) 14:02, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
The lengthy and complete speech by Montgomery is too long and not germane to the core of the article. If it's relevant in any way, it can be added to Wikisource. Unless someone objects, I will move it there. — btphelps ( talk to me) ( what I've done) 07:40, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
The article makes the claim that "Eric von Manstein planned the offensive with the primary goal to recapture the important harbor of Antwerp." and provides two sources.
This is wrong. Manstein had nothing with this offensive whatsoever to do. He was already living in retirement when the offensive was planned. So this sentence should be removed.
Manstein planned the German offensive in the west 1940, not the one in 1944.
LennartFr ( talk) 22:02, 19 April 2015 (UTC)
1. While the M1 Garand was the most commonly distributed rifle to U.S forces during WW2, it was not the only rifle used by U.S forces during the Alsace-Ardennes Campaign and there were other combatant countries including British, Canadian, French, Benelux, as well as German troops. Any weapon without a visible clip and clearly not a machine gun could have been used. Therefore, it could be a M1A1, a Springfield M1903A3, or a M1917 Enfield (you wouldn’t see the bolt from the left side of the rifle); or a Lee-Enfield No. 3, Lee-Enfield No. 4 Mk 1, No. 5 Mk I or .303 Pattern 1914 from Britain; the French Berthier 1907/15 rifle or MAS-36; or the Mauser M1936/ 98, Gewehr Models 41, 43 or 98 or the Kar98k, all of which were on the Ardennes battlefield.
2.The ORIGINAL photograph source is on page 275 of “United States Army in World War II, Pictorial Record, The War against Germany: Europe and adjacent areas”, from the U.S. Center for Military History. http://www.history.army.mil/html/books/012/12-3/CMH_Pub_12-3.pdf. The original caption reads: “Infantrymen fire at German troops in the advance to relieve the surrounded paratroopers in Bastogne. In foreground a platoon leader indicates the target to a rifleman by actually firing on the target. In Bastogne the defenders were badly in need of relief, they were attacked nightly by German aircraft, supplies were critically low in spite of the airdrops, and the wounded could not be given proper attention because of the shortage of medical supplies. After an advance which had been slow, U. S. relief troops entered Bastogne at 1645 on 26 December 1944.” Nothing about an M1 rifle. Wikipedia is intended as an encyclopedia, not for opinions or guessing (viz., the rhetorical comment, “What else could it be?”) which constitutes original research. Therefore the the verified original photo source caption was substituted. N0TABENE ( talk) 12:16, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
I've tagged this article as American English, as that's the way it's been for as long as I know. Recently, a couple of editors have been rapid-fire changing things to British English, notably "armour". I've been reverting, but I've exhausted that route by now. The British-spelling editors are quite persistent.
Am I wrong? Should the article be in British English? -- A D Monroe III ( talk) 19:47, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
While expanding Battle of Elsenborn Ridge, I've found that the existing article covered the timeline for the Battle of the Bulge on the northern shoulder until about December 26. This was when the German attempt to capture Elsenborn Ridge sputtered out and when Kampfgruppe Peiper literally ran out of gas. But there was considerable action on the northern shoulder well after that point as the Americans counterattacked and pushed the Germans back to the original main line of resistance when the Ardennes Offensive began on 16 December.
Any input? A D Monroe III, LennartFr, N0TABENE, fdewaele, Witnessforpeace, JuanRiley, Hohum, Dodgerblue777, Calendar5, do you have any input if this additional action should be added to the Battle of Elsenborn Ridge or—I suspect the better option—spun off into a separate article. If a separate article, what should it be named? — btphelps ( talk to me) ( what I've done)
In a move to help restore this article to Good Article status, I have identified several Harvard-type references that don't appear to be among the bibliography or are otherwise inconsistently formatted. I found that the style of references also varies quite a bit. I am going to unify the type of references used and will fix the references needing attention over the next two weeks. — btphelps ( talk to me) ( what I've done) 00:46, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
Both this article and Battle of Elsenborn Ridge are 116K, which is TOOBIG per WP guidelines. I suggest splitting both articles and creating one new one to address the aftermath and outcomes of the battle, perhaps titled " Battle of Bulge aftermath".
In this article, " Battle of the Bulge", we could move:
8 Strategy and leadership
and in " Battle of Elsenborn Ridge", we could move:
6 Impact of the battle
7 Weapons and tactics
Additionally, the article Battle of Lanzerath Ridge has a section containing more overlapping content:
4 Aftermath
Both of the existing articles would then end with the renewed and failed German counterattack. I did a very quick and dirty merge of these various sections here. The resulting article is 43kb which would allow for some expansion to better cover the conclusion of the battle and the lead up to the Western Allied invasion of Germany.
We should also consider:
I think splitting these articles is highly desirable, though I'm not sure about the title. Ideas and suggestions, anyone? — btphelps ( talk to me) ( what I've done) 20:53, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
The "Strength" list in the infobox is quite informative, but also quite long for an infobox. I would like move the bulk of this valuable information into a separate table for ease of use, and reduce the infobox to just the starting and ending numbers of infantry/armor divisions/brigades only. The table can be formatted for easier visual comparison by lining-up by date and type, and color-coded by Axis/Allied. Any comments before I do this? -- A D Monroe III ( talk) 19:50, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
Example (collapsed to save space)
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Well this is odd. "Allied high-command controversy[edit]
On the American side, most of the upper levels of leadership above division level took themselves out of the battle due to poor handling of intelligence, and the decision not to provide a mobile reserve force for meeting unforeseen contingencies.[105]:162
One of the fault lines between the British and American high commands was General Dwight D. Eisenhower's commitment to a broad front advance with no strategic reserve. This view was opposed by the British Chief of the Imperial General Staff, Field Marshal Alan Brooke, who promoted a rapid advance on a narrow front, with the other allied armies in reserve.[105]:91 This basic disagreement was the wedge Hitler hoped to exploit with his counteroffensive, and the fact that a breakthrough was achieved seemed to justify the British objections. Also the British remembered a similar German armored counterattack at Kasserine Pass in North Africa, where the American army was routed by the German strike, once again confirming the British conservative view of strategy.[106]:339"
The first paragraph is completely nonsensical. I would like to delete it unless someone can translate. The second is grammatically a lot better but still mostly nonsense. Again I suggest removal unless someone can explain what this is supposed to mean. Thanks. DMorpheus2 ( talk) 17:03, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
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This statement is in the opening of the article. Is it really appropriate? The Battle of Okinawa seems more deserving of the title of "bloodiest battle fought by the United States in World War 2", if we're just accounting for the number of Americans that died. If we're not, then it would be the Battle of Luzon for the high number of Filipino civilian casualties. But I digress.
Bulge:
Americans killed: 19,000
Americans wounded: 47,500
Okinawa:
Americans killed: 20,195
Americans wounded: 55,162
--
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hello, could somebody in the upper right box please change "luxembourgeois resistance" to it's correct english form : Luxembourgish resistance? luxembourgeois resistance is french, in english it is luxembourgish resistance. it's like saying deutsch resistance instead of german resistance. please use english spelling in english articles. thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Letzebuergerr ( talk • contribs) 09:43, 24 September 2016 (UTC)
According to the wiki page "List of most lethal American battles" Normandy was the most lethal battle for America in terms of US soldiers killed. These facts should be reconciled and appropriate changes made 97.80.175.196 ( talk) 05:22, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
Among the results in the table, it is stated: Soviet offensive in Poland launched on 12 January 1945, eight days earlier than originally intended.[2]
However, the article on the Vistula Oder offensive itself states: The offensive was brought forward from 20 January to 12 January because meterological reports warned of a thaw later in the month, and the tanks needed hard ground for the offensive. It was not done to assist American and British forces during the Battle of the Bulge, as Stalin chose to claim at Yalta.[7]
Which is it?
Both have citations, one from 2002, the other from 2014.
Thom430 ( talk) 13:32, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
Lead paragraph says, "The surprise attack caught the Allied forces completely off guard." Yet the fourth paragraph says it was predicted by Third Army Intelligence staff, and Ultra intercepts indicated an offensive was imminent. So which is it? Generally, attacks that are anticipated are not surprise attacks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.121.250.128 ( talk) 09:10, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
I think also probable. Osizerok ( talk) 20:45, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
There is a sentence in the Background section that I do not think is correct: "The Allies chose to defend the Ardennes with as few troops as possible due to the favorable terrain (a densely wooded highland with deep river valleys and a rather thin road network) and limited Allied operational objectives in the area." Specifically, the sentence states that the Ardennes has "favorable terrain." From everything that I've read about the Ardennes area in Belgium, the terrain is anything but favorable from a military standpoint. This is the main reason why the Allies did not think the Germans would attack in this region. I think the sentence should be changed. Starsmark ( talk) 05:43, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
General McAuliffe's name was spelled as "McAullife" and I changed the spelling in the caption of the photo of the letter.
What would happen if I changed the spelling in the area that links to the photo? I think the photo of the letter would not show up.
Please help with this. Starsmark ( talk) 07:44, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
This section is long and mostly irrelevant as the supply issue had gone by 16 December 1944. Needs to be one short paragraph, no more. 90.198.216.240 ( talk) 08:36, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
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