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The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: consensus to moveAsturian Mountain to
Asturian Mountain cattle, per the large percentage of comments in the discussion below concerning that case in particular; no consensus in the other cases, although it appears that one or more of these (esp.
Dorset Down) might show consensus for a move if discussed individually or if a new discussion were initiated now that most of the associated move requests have closed.
Dekimasuよ! 22:27, 26 October 2014 (UTC)reply
There is an ongoing status quo ante RM discussion at
Talk:Teeswater sheep that raises the same WP:NATURAL issue, but it's not a discussion on the merits, but about whether to revert to parenthetical disambiguation pending such a discussion, and thus has no impact on this RM. —
SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 00:52, 21 September 2014 (UTC)reply
Support per nom.
Dicklyon (
talk) 05:49, 17 September 2014 (UTC)reply
SupportDorset Downs is a location in Dorset, and "Dorset Down" should redirect there. There are mountains in Asturias, so "Astruian Mountain" should redirect to
Asturias#Geography_and_climate; the steppe in Ukraine occupied by the Cossacks as opposed to Tartars etc, are "white" --
70.51.46.146 (
talk) 06:38, 20 September 2014 (UTC)reply
Oppose: SMC, you do well know the reactions to your unreflected moves. Take
Talk:Teeswater_sheep#Requested_move_25_August_2014 as a reminder. The Names of the Breeds are well citated from different breeding associations and some national governmental organisations, that are repoting to the FAO, who is using this names as well. And again, there is a difference between a Flamish Giant rabbit (as in any Giant rabbit of Flamish origin or any Flamish rabbit of a Giant breed) and a Flamish Giant, that is the name of the breed.
By the way, what is the benefit of doing some RMs through out multiple different talk pages
[1], rather than in one special place, where they all belong to, like the WikiProject Agriculture?
The "many similar cases" moved by you without reliable references are now used to make a point, your point? --
PigeonIP (
talk) 19:32, 20 September 2014 (UTC)reply
You're not presenting an argument that is relevant in any way to this RM, just a
fallacy ad hominem and other distractions.
Same response here as at your other copy-pasted comments of this sort at
Talk:Anglo-Nubian & the other RMs...
You're also confusing a status quo ante discussion at
Talk:Teeswater sheep (a discussion about whether to revert undiscussed moves in the interim before discussing the merits of the moves) with a discussion of the merits of the moves; they're unrelated. You're also evidencing serious difficulty with English spelling and capitalization, and getting proper names correct; I don't mean that in a snide way, it's just a matter of
WP:COMPETENCE, as this is a nuanced discussion about spelling, proper naming, and capitalization in particular. And finally, you're sorely confusing, well, everything, as you did in earlier discussions.
Flemish Giant is the breed name. No one contests this. For reasons already covered at a previous near-identical RM, this name doesn't work here, and needs to be
Flemish Giant rabbit for disambiguation and recognizability reasons. That does not at all imply any of the confused ideas you suggested, which would be implied by
Flemish giant rabbit. Next, your concern that the breed name itself is being misrepresented isn't correct either, which would be the case with
Flemish Giant Rabbit. Oh, the case you didn't mention here but did in all the other discussions: No, it shouldn't be
Flemish Giant (rabbit), per
WP:NATURAL policy.
RMs are usually discussed on article talk pages; wikiprojects, per
WP:LOCALCONSENSUS policy, are simply editors agreeing to collaborate, nothing more. They do not have special
WP:OWN authority over articles they claim within their scope.
WP:RM itself lists, in a centralized location, all ongoing requested moves. There is no reason to host them on a wikiproject page; doing so would be highly irregular, and to many it would look like an attempt to actively canvass the project's editors to gang-vote.
Your continued personal aspersion casting, I will address that on your talk page. —
SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 00:44, 21 September 2014 (UTC)reply
Support I don't know is this discuss finished or not, but I support the opinion of the user "70.51.46.146". BTW, in a similar case, Asturian Valley redirects to
Asturian Valley cattle.
Asturkian (
talk) 14:18, 2 October 2014 (UTC)reply
Oppose. It does not comply with
WP:COMMONNAME, is not succinct and if we follow this logic, 90% the articles Wikipedia would need amending because someone might not be familiar with them e.g. "Bombay Duck fish", "Ford car manufacturer" and many more.
Bermicourt (
talk) 07:20, 3 October 2014 (UTC)reply
@
Bermicourt: WP:COMMONNAME is independent of
WP:NATURAL disambiguation. COMMONNAME only tells us what (e.g. "Asturian Mountain") goes before the disambiguation ("cattle"). And "Bombay Duck" and "Ford" are not places or likely to be misconstrued as such, and thus aren't relevant to this RM and its rationale. —
SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 13:44, 3 October 2014 (UTC)reply
Oppose as proposed. Fundamentally flawed proposal, based on false premises. A few points:
There is already a mass move request regarding animal breed articles, the outcome of which would affect any decision here, at
Talk:Teeswater sheep#Requested move 25 August 2014, as the nominator well knows, since it involves the reversal of some hundreds of undiscussed page moves made by him
White Park cattle, cited above as an example for consistency, was moved without discussion to its present title by the nominator, and will be reverted if that move proceeds
Nigerian Dwarf goat, cited above as an example for consistency, was moved without discussion to its present title by the nominator, and will be reverted if that move proceeds
Black Pied Dairy cattle, cited above as an example for consistency, has been moved six times in just over three years
The nominator has decided, without reference to relevant WikiProjects or other interested editors, how he wants domestic animal breed articles to be named, and is apparently on a one-man crusade to impose that decision on the community; other moves proposed (mostly with copy-pasted move rationale) by the same editor are at:
In general, the present titles are unique, and satisfy the five
WP:CRITERIA of recognisability, naturalness, precision, conciseness and consistency, and there's no reason to change them
Specifically, the
Dorset Down is a world-famous breed, and there is no realistic possibility that anyone would confuse it with the
Dorset Downs (which are invariably plural); a
Google search shows that the sheep is indisputably the
primary topic
I agree that
Asturian Mountain could at first sight seem confusing, but as with any other article with an obscure or confusing title, a glance at the page will end all doubt. However: there's no mountain called "Asturian Mountain"; the title is "a name ... that someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject area will recognize";
Google shows it to be the primary topic, though not so definitively as the Dorset Down. A case could be made for moving it, to
Asturian Mountain Cattle, to
Asturian Mountain (cattle), to
Asturian Mountain cattle or to
Asturiana de la Montaña; given the large number of academic sources in
this search, I favour the last. But it seems pointless to discuss here which of those is preferable in relation to a single page until the larger move is decided; the decision should in any case be left to the editors who do the research and the work on the article.
Support per nom: Natural disambiguation let's us know it is cattle and not a mountain.
Otr500 (
talk) 07:11, 10 October 2014 (UTC)reply
Comment: why are these names capitalised?
Katy Gallaghon (
talk) 19:28, 25 October 2014 (UTC).reply
Reliable sources regularly use natural disambiguation for these breeds
Of course, reliable sources (even when they mostly use just the breed name by itself when there's no ambiguity) regularly and predictably use precisely the kind of natural disambiguation as proposed here, when they need to be clear what species they mean (as WP always needs to; we can never presume that any given reader already knows that an article is about cattle or pigs or whatever before going to the article, as one might in a paper about cattle (etc.), and even those often use natural disambiguation anyway). Natural disambiguation is a natural feature of the English language (that's why it's called natural disambiguation, after all).
"Spain: Redes"(PDF). UNESCO.org. [unknown]. Herds of the endangered Casina cattle or Asturian mountain cattle are to be found in Redes{{
cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (
help)
Kinh, L. V.; Hai, L. T. (November 2006). "Improving pig performance through breeding and feeding in Vietnam". In Thorpe, W. (ed.); Jemaneh, T. (ed.) (eds.).
Pig systems in Asia and the Pacific: How can research and development enhance benefits to the poor?. International Livestock Research Institute. pp. 79–80. "Australian Yorkshire and Duroc pigs were imported.... Offspring boars sired by Australian Yorkshire and Duroc pigs.... All male offspring of imported Australian Yorkshire pigs had...{{
cite book}}: |editor1-first= has generic name (
help)
Duncanson, Graham R. (December 13, 2013).
Veterinary Treatment of Pigs. CABI. p. 179. Ukrainian Spotted Steppe pig
Baschenko, M. I.; Burkat, V. P. (1997). Breeding Strategies for Cattle, Sheep and Pigs in Eastern Europe. REU Technical Series (47). FAO
http://FAO.org/docrep/006/ad250e/ad250e0m.htm. "Red Steppe cattle and Red cattle ... Black-and-White cattle ... Red Steppe cattle ... Angler cattle ... Brown Calpack cattle ... Grey Ukraine cattle ... Wolynik cattle ... the White Ukraine Steppe Pig, the Mielgoroda Steppe Pig ...{{
cite journal}}: |chapter= ignored (
help); Missing or empty |title= (
help) (It's unclear why, in a handful of cases, the authors capitalized the species name, but it's not very significant, since most sources do not. The document shows a large number of "scannos" – OCR errors – so this may explain it.)
"Dorset Down Sheep". DorsetDownSheep.org.uk. Dorset Down Sheep Breeder's Association. (After the homepage, they just use "Dorset Down", suggesting that "Dorset Down Sheep" is a natural disambiguation/explanation (capitalized for no particular reason). The "Breed Qualities" page
[2] gives it as "Dorset Down", but it is not a formal breed standard, just an overview.
"Description of a Dorset Down Sheep". HeritageSheep.org.au. Heritage Sheep Australia. October 18, 2010 [last updated]. "Dorset Down" page. {{
cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (
help) (Source typically uses just the breed names, e.g. "Dorset Down", but regularly also uses the longer constructions (e.g. "Dorset Down [S|s]heep"), but usually in headings that are title-cased.)
Full marks to SMcCandlish for posting some sources. As expected, these convincingly show that there is no one fixed way of writing or using animal breed names.
Justlettersandnumbers (
talk) 23:56, 3 October 2014 (UTC)reply
Except they don't show that at all. They convincingly show that breeds have formal names ("Asturian Mountain", " Asturian Valley", "Finnish Ayrshire", "Dorset Down", etc.) to which capitalized species ("Cattle", "Pig", "Sheep" etc. are usually not appended, yet that they are regularly
WP:NATURALly disambiguated by reliable sources in the real world, by appending lower-case species. This is just the tip of the iceberg. I can show that this is the case for everything in the mess at
Talk:Teeswater sheep#Requested moves as well. —
SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 04:13, 4 October 2014 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Further sources for article improvement
"Picos de Europa". UNESCO.org.
United Nations Education, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO). April 2014. autochthonous races of cattle such as the Asturian mountain cattle – Ratina and Casina – and Tudanca cattle. Note: This source suggests that "Asturian mountain cattle" isn't a breed but a generic term for several local breeds or landraces, including the Ratina and Casina. If it's correct, the article should be at
Asturian mountain cattle (lower-case "mountain"); i.e., they're a general mountain cattle type from Asturias. —
SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 14:44, 3 October 2014 (UTC)reply
"Casina" is a synonym for the Asturiana (Rodríguez et al., Guía de campo de las razas autóctonas españolas, p. 37); I think the Ratina is a cross-breed or hybrid of the Asturiana with the
Braunvieh, but please don't quote me on that.
Justlettersandnumbers (
talk) 23:56, 3 October 2014 (UTC)reply
Casina: I added that to the article (with a different source). Ratina: Well, what we seem to have here, pending further sourcing, is an actual source conflict, as most of us seem to think that the UN agencies are more-or-less reliable sources. —
SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 05:43, 4 October 2014 (UTC)reply
"Spain: Redes"(PDF). UNESCO.org. [unknown]. Herds of the endangered Casina cattle or Asturian mountain cattle are to be found in Redes{{
cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (
help) Note: This source indicates that "Asturian mountain cattle" and "Casina cattle" are synonymous, and that the breed is "endangered", though that term may be being used imprecisely in this case. —
SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 14:44, 3 October 2014 (UTC)reply
This one agrees (well, it says "
autochthonousraces in danger of extinction"):
Raza Autóctona en Peligro de Extinción Neither source says why, but AsEAMo's continual out-crossing seems the most likely reason; they maintain only a small number of pure-bred animals. It lists the Asturian Mountain but not
Asturian Valley cattle as in danger. —
SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 06:42, 4 October 2014 (UTC)reply
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