![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The Arabian Horse is an amazing, beautiful creature.... I've "owned" several breeds and cross-breeds of horses, but it is the Arabian that "owns me". Not only are they incredibly beautiful to observe, both standing and moving, they are wonderfully affectionate, quite intelligent, athletic, and versatile. I have found my relationships with my Arabians to be more like that of "Man and Dog" as there is a natural Human - Arabian Horse connection. I have not found this type of relationship with other breeds of horses. I have also found that other breed owners are quick to criticize or sterotype the Arabian as flighty... or hot. My experience has proven otherwise. Upon asking, you will typically find that most of those who criticize the Arabian have never owned one. It also seems that most Arabian horse owners have owned other breeds and have "migrated" to Arabian horse ownership for the very reasons stated above. Visit an Arabian Farm, meet the owners, talk to them about their treasured horses and their relationships and you will open up a world of love, friendship, appreciation and lifetime enjoyment. Anonymous user
This article is far too positively weighted in favor of the positive traits of the Arabian. I'm not well versed in horse-lore, so I'm probably not the one to rewrite this article, but it definitely needs some work. Remember: don't try to sell the breed, just give the facts. Harkenbane 08:35, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
OK Harkenbane, that's fair. I will look at what's in there about intelligence and see what can be tweaked--one way or the other--But compared to the properties of bronze, well, Equine IQ is actually a pretty controversial field generally, and much evidence is, admittedly, anecdotal...studies comparing horses of any breed to other animals are also hotly debated and I don't even know if there's a scientific consensus on what "animal IQ" really is... when is an animal exhibiting good memory and fast learning (i.e. horse smarts), and what is raw abstract reasoning skill (i.e. dolphins)? I will look to see what, if any, studies have been done between horse breeds, though I suspect that even if they exist, the study will have been limited to too few animals to have any real indica of scientific reliability. (For that matter, does anyone know if there have been similar studies between dog breeds???) As for other traits, the endurance claim is the most tested. Just check the results of rides like the Tevis Cup and other 100 mile races, both in the US and internationally. Other than the occasional mule, mustang or appaloosa, an overwhelming majority of winners are purebred of half-Arabians. As for beauty, let me know if you can measure it, eye of the beholder and all. I think there are scientific studies that people are drawn to animals that exhibit traits of neotany...big, wide eyes, refined stature, etc...so by that criteria, Arabians would win hands down! <Grin> Not that I'm opposed to cutting that which is superflous; doggone article is already at 36K and I'm getting nagged by the Wiki preview feature that it's too long. (If only there weren't so many pretty pictures..I've already left out that great pic of Napoleon on his Arabian...) Montanabw 18:27, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
The ongoing joke from non-horse people is that the horse (any breed) has a brain the size of a baked potato! I'm talking off of memory here, but I believe that the ratio of cerebrum to cerebellum in a horse is real roughly the inverse of what it is in people...in other words, the horse is a "genius" at balance and coordination, also there is some scientific study to verify that they have incredible memories. However, the frontal lobe of the cerebrum in a horse is certainly nothing compared to that of a human. There isn't a lot of abstract reasoning there, nor, luckily for us, much worrying about the future! My point is simply that raw brain size also has to consider ratio of the various structures within the brain... What I CAN say about Arabians is that the bulge on the forehead called the "jibbah" is NOT due to a larger brain (though some like to claim it is) but rather is due to increased sinus capacity, an adaptation to the desert. That said, given that the Arabian is a bit smaller and lighter than the average horse, the ratio of brain size to body mass would be interesting to look at. (I should see if Cal Poly Pomona has done anything on this...they have the old Kellogg Ranch now...) As for domestication, given that the Arabian prototype may have actually been one of the earliest horses domesticated, but then raised in a very harsh, survival-of-the-fittest world where the animal still needed a lot of its wild instincts, I can't say what impact on brain size that domestication had...and in the case of the horse, both people-friendly traits were bred for, but also wild traits were retained. The most fascinating thing to me is that horses in general are one of the only prey species--and the only LARGE prey species--that humans domesticated primarily for companion purposes rather than for food or clothing...I mean, some people DO eat horses :'-(, but most of the time, only after they have had a long period of service to humans in other forms. I suppose some breeds of cattle who were used as draft animals would also count, but Idon't know a lot about draft oxen...(Rabbits come to mind as another prey animal sometimes domesticated as a pet, but the reality is that there aren't that many pet rabbits, and fewer still who, say, go to obedience school...and who does anything with a hamster or gerbil other than watch them run in the little wheel??) Again, what are the implications of that on brain development and intelligence?
Another thought I had after looking at your links is that horses are one of the animals who have become LARGER after domestication. The Przewalski's horse, for example, is only the size of a large pony. What might be the impact of that? Hmmm. More questions than answers here, that's for sure...all I can say anecdotally is that there's WAY more going on in there than can be scientifically verified. Montanabw 18:40, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
OK, I found my old version that someone deleted (probably because it was one of the darker times for the breed), and replaced the text. Really people, I'm not bashing arabs with the 1980s history, so please leave it in there! I also added in stuff about their lack of bascule, which is detrimental to their jumping. I love arabians, but they are a bit notorious for their sometimes poor jumping form (tight with the front legs, but too hollow). Please people, dont take out the bad stuff because you love your arabian! My old horse was an arab, and while she was an OK jumper, I'll be the first to admit that she definetly lacked bascule. Im trying to be unbiased. Eventer 28 February 2006
There should be some discussion of SCID in Arabian horses. I am not a vet or breeder - anyone else? mizchalmers 8 Mar 2006
Somebody see if they mention HERDA or HYPP in the Quarter Horse page first, eh? ;-D Montanabw 23:23, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Hi all, I'm new to Wikipedia, but I would like to be welcomed to this article as yet another editor. I have owned Arabians for over 30 years, and I also do a lot of writing. So, between the two, I promise to take my best, neutral stab at trying to keep the best of what's there so far, consolidating redundant material, and generally trying to wordsmith this piece into something helpful.
Several of the anonymous recent changes made on 3/30 were mine before I figured out how to create a login.
What's in there still isn't a work of copperplate prose, but hopefully each tweak helps.
Have made a sincere attempt to clean up, polish and consolidate the best points of the existing article. There are many controversies surrounding Arabian horses and I attempted to put the most universally accepted, neutral viewpoint materials in one spot, while providing what I hope is a balanced discussion of the controversies within the breed.
I am thinking about how do deal with the genetic lethals issues...many breeds have them, will see if the Quarter Horse or Paint Horse articles discuss theirs at all...
There's a need to do more work on this article, but I'll keep an eye out for what gets added and try to wordsmith everything into something that won't get us slapped back on the cleanup list. Montanabw 00:04, 8 April 2006 (UTC)B
I've owned and bred Arabians for 17 years and in that 17 years of my life I've realized that I carry secrets of the breed in my heart. I don't really ponder much on them but when people ask me questions about the breed it's almost as though I'm speaking about a spirit that really exists instead of a horse or animal. I've even encountered telepathy with one old mare before she died. I kept getting this message in my head when I looked into her eyes every day for about 2 weeks that she was going to die. Two weeks later my husband left me and took the old mare from me. I begged him not to take her and told him she will die. He came back 2 days later to tell me about her dropping dead in front of him and he cried so hard about what had happened. It was a strange feeling to pick up on the message she was sending me through her eyes. I do believe that God has put these animals on this planet to enhance our souls, to change us and make us better people. 6/8/06 - Rose
The Arabians are more than just horses, they are the ONLY purebred horse in the world. Without the Arabian blood there would be no other breeds and all other breeds would fall off over time. Here's what I believe: He took his mighty hand and formed an image out of the sand; and with a forceful wind he made the breath from within; In a cloud of thunder came the sound of hooves on the ground; and with the firey sun he joined the soul and spirit in one. Alas the Arabian. - Poem I wrote one evening. I think that sums it all up. Anything anyone wants to know about arabians I can probably answer. But the biggest question of all...WHY. Why are they the way they are? Because they are smarter than any other breed. That's why. And most of them are smarter than most humans so humans tend to shrug it off and call them flighty because they don't have the slightest clue on how to communicate with the Arabian. Ha....I'd rather be left alone on this planet with an Arabian than with another human being because just by being a care taker of the breed has taught me more about life than any human I've ever encountered. 6/8/06 - Rose
LISTEN TO YOUR ARABIAN The most important thing you can learn from Arabians is to listen; read them; try to understand them so that you can communicate with them. Listen to what they feel because if there is danger ahead you can prevent a terrible accident by listening to your horse. Most people want their horse to do what THEY want it to do when riding on the trail, but you better listen to your horse. Communication with your horse is the key to survival. They have instincts that we do not have. They can smell danger ahead. We cannot. Trail riding is a dangerous sport and each ride presents new obstacles. If you're horse tells you it doesn't want to go through a swamp...there IS a REASON why not. Don't take your horse into danger and expect it to do what you want it to do. Most breeds will submit to what the rider wants, but an Arabian will not if there is danger ahead. This is where people assume the horse is flighty or stubborn and resists to what you are asking it to do. Remember, they know things you do not know and have a natural instict to go around a situation that presents danger. 6/13/06 - Rose
Thanks all who have made positive contributions to this article and especially those who did some really great formatting and cleanup work and fixed MY mistakes! I do have a couple of comments, though.
Finally, if you have expertise on any other horse breeds, I noticed that a lot of those other breed pages are kind of a mess and need some help too! The Quarter Horse page is practically a disaster, about where the Arabian page was a couple months ago. So if anyone knows how to insert a cleanup tag over there... Montanabw 22:06, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Stuff like the following needs to be more neutral:
Instead of saying the horse is beautiful, describe specifically what it looks like. For example, instead of saying it is popular, cite statistics on population.
Montanabw
21:20, 20 April 2006 (UTC) 21:20 yeah, I agree. Made a few tweaks to see if it can be improved upon for the moment. Not where it should be yet, but glad you pointed it out. Intros are important, yet when you are spending all your time on substantive material within the article...The whole article was so bad it was on the cleanup list, it's been tough to try and keep the spirit of what others have added and yet get it cleaned up and useful.
Problem is that Arabians are pretty controversial horses. Truly an art to get a neutral view. When you know 'em well enough to write with at least some accuracy, you just love 'em so much that you have to fight to stay neutral in tone.
Maybe that's why I just wimped out and added a bunch of history instead! Ha!
Or maybe your just Anti-Arab? ;) Iam sure Cynical reasons run deep in Western blood when it comes to eastern history and culuture.
Hi Folks, let's try to minimize the "here's me and my pony" photos. And if you absolutely MUST upload photos, keep them at least as small as the ones already there. I think it would be best that we not use images of currently living horses. (there are two there now, and they are OK but not ideal) I would like someone with ownerfhip of a photo to upload ONE very nice conformation shot of a classic, correctly-conformed "generic" Arabian, preferably of a no-longer-living animal, but still in color and taken in the animal's prime of life. And maybe one shot of Arabians in costume at the Tournament of Roses parade. Montanabw 16:22, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I have reverted the deletion of the picture of a young lady riding bareback for two reasons.
(1) Deleting on the grounds that "bareback riding is dangerous" depends on the editor's own point of view. Riding without a helmet really is dangerous. Within a few miles of where that photograph was taken I saw the only really dangerous riding accident. I should say potentially dangerous because everybody kept their heads and Col. Sysin, the riding instructor, calmed the horse before the rider was dragged anywhere. We were jumping in the outdoor jumping area. The best student rider (who obviously was well trained before he ever got on campus) was riding a very nice horse. The horse shied from something and threw his rider to the left, but with his right boot caught in his stirrup. So he was hanging from the stirrup strap that had gone horizontally over the saddle and could not release. So saddles with stirrups that don't have a "break-out" function can be dangerous too. People get seriously injured when they ride without helmets and get their head whacked at high speeds. People get seriously injured when they participate in activities like jumping and racing. Riding bareback in a responsible way is good training for riding on balance. Deleting pictures on the grounds that something might be dangerous would eliminate most of the pictures for this article because handlers and riders are not wearing helmets.
(2) Deleting on the grounds that the horse doesn't look like an Arabian is to imply that the person who posted the picture didn't know what he was talking about. Editors do not perform the functions of researchers -- or of conformation judges. Somebody might have some doubts about the breed of the horse in the picture, if for no other reason than that the photo is not clearly focused, but the objective observer would just say that determination on the basis of that one photo is inadquate. If we sent the picture to a qualified conformation judge somewhere s/he would probably say, "I can't tell for sure. Show me better photos, and photos from other angles."
The picture wasn't hurting anybody and was showing one more way that horses interact with human beings. P0M 17:39, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm sure you love your horse, I have dozens of digital photos of my Arabs, and I haven't uploaded a single one. This isn't the place to feed your ego or promote your thing. Sadly, I'm not implying that the person doesn't know what they are talking about, but sometimes we can't objectively evaluate our own animals accurately. The photo looks like a roaned-out Appaloosa, I don't mean that as an insult, it's just an observation. I've never seen a purebred Arab that color. There's an argument made that Arabs don't even carry the roan gene, that all Arabians registered as "roan" were either rose grays or Sabinos with a roaning pattern. So based on color, head, and bone structure (especially the legs), I think it's a half. Can you positively verify this as a purebred Arabian with registration number and name so we can check the registry's Database??? It also was the biggest photo on the page, even narrowed, it's poor quality, and it is not typical of even "old style" Arabian type. I don't care much for the other two body shots in there, either, but they are better than nothing, the dressage head shot at the bottom is a nice one. And riding barefoot is as much a risk to one's feet as no helmet is to one's head. You don't want toes, fine. I don't want to get into an editing war here, but this photo doesn't belong. Maybe we need a different page titled "uses of Arabian horses" and we can upload all our fun shots there?? Montanabw 18:53, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Oh, and if you noted my comment, it was that riding BAREFOOT is dangerous, not bareback, which, I agree, can be good for teaching balance. (However, it can also be good for teaching people--incorrectly--to hang on by the reins!) I really don't mean to be as snarky as this sounds, but frankly, the need here is for classic photos demonstrating clear breed type. I mean, I could post a call on ABlackHorse and have 20 pictures of kids with horses stuck up here tomorrow and it would not be an encyclopedia article any more, it would be a scrapbook. (Actually, though, could we post casual photos HERE? Maybe that's the thing to do. Does this horse look like and Arabian, and whether it does or not, is it suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia as an illustration? Montanabw 19:42, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Ok, who in the world removed my input on Arabian horses bullfighting? How can any of you exclude this sport? It's not barbaric.... it's classic and artful.....and there's also "bloodless bullfighting" where they do not kill the bulls at nor do they bleed them.
Isn't this page suppose to inform people about Arabian horses and how versatile they are? It only talks of the "common" tasks and typical training that almost every horse can do (dressage, jumping, racing, etc).
If you are going to be informative, then don't leave out other important facts.
I'm adding it back in and if anyone has a problem with this, take it up with me.
Thanks, -- Webmistress Diva 04:45, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
So, please don't accuse me of vandalism and falsifying myself. I strive to make corrections within the "wiki" world and make "known" to those that are "not known" to others. It's not a crime, it's called "educating".
I'm allowed to not use my real name here. It's the same thing if someone was to use their initials. If someone really wanted to know my name, I'm sure they'll ask, until then, it's nobody's business and I'm not doing anything wrong. So mind yourself and just stick to the subject on "wiki" stuff and go police someone else who is actually violating and vandalising the wiki world.
Thanks for your concerns, but please watch what you say as it is very insulting to my intelligence. -- Webmistress Diva 06:25, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I'll give you the opportunity to put it back, and please don't forget to be a little bit more descriptive other than what you wrote originally. You wrote it as if it has no relevance. This is why I'm here so that people are not mis-informed. If I don't see it in it's appropriate place, I'll just put it in myself. -- Webmistress Diva 06:43, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
My concern is calling yourself "Webmistress Diva," when you are really Pebs96, may not technically be against the rules, but it misleading because it implies that you have some kind of authority here that you don't have--and almost constitutes a "sockpuppet," which IS against the rules. You are also rather threatening in your tone when you say things like "mind yourself," etc., and are assuming I have ill will, both of which are also not Wiki culture.
You also don't really want to start an editing war of you putting things in, me taking them out, etc. I don't want someone who DOES have administrative authority have to resolve this. So let's hash it out here, and I am glad to try and reach a middle ground.
Let's put it this way: The main "Uses of Arabian Horses" section may still need more and better formatting, but as written now it starts with the major and most popular activities that the breed is best known for. Bullfighting is less well-known, doesn't have the numbers of participants that racing or showing do, and so by the NPOV policy of Wikipedia, it means it's a less important topic and needs to be lower on the page. "Other activities" is a place where everyone can be, if not happy, then at least entitled to a few words and a wiki link to their individual thing. More people ride Arabian horses in parades than in bullfights. More Arabian horses are in circuses than in bullfights. More Iberian horses are probably used for bullfighting than are purebred Arabians. In the United States, more Arabians are used for reining and working cows than in bullfights.
So therefore, it is an obscure sport. If I'm wrong, give me statistics. If you question mine, count the entries at Scottsdale and the Nationals, count the number of Arabians in the Tournament of Roses parade alone. Look at the percentage rate of growth at the Sport Horse nationals and tell me if your sport is growing anywhere near that rate. It's great that you want to promote your sport and all that, but you have to keep it in perspective, too. And I've noticed that your bloodless bullfighting page has a disputed neutrality tag on it, that's not a good thing, you know...
As far as removing the bit about agility, etc., Arabians are used for EVERYTHING because of their athleticism and agility. To keep saying it when it's up in breed characteristics is redundant and the article is already at the 32 KB limit.
One thought: Would you like to create a whole separate article on Arabians in bullfighting and then we can link to it? Or, given that I've already wiki linked to your bloodless bullfighting article, maybe you could add a special subsection there??
Let me know, but remember that we really are writing an encyclopedia here and have to keep NPOV going but also consider length, readability, etc... Montanabw 04:58, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
I know that there are lots of things I have to write, so please be patient with me while I gather all of my facts together. Thanks =) -- Webmistress Diva 22:13, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
No matter what, I would most graciously suggest that before you add anything, if you haven't already reviewed the following, you might want to do so: Wikipedia:User page#What_can_I_not_have_on_my_user_page.3F and Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not and particularly Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_soapbox Also, though you feel passionate about your subject, please remember NPOV: Wikipedia:Neutral point of view
MOST OF ALL, please read Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Undue_weight Much of what you have to say should be said in the Bloodless bullfighting article. However, I have added a Wiki link to it from this page, and simply beg that given the dozens upon dozens of activities Arabians "can" do, that we don't put anything too far out of proportion. Racing gets barely a sentence. Ranch work gets about two words. Sport horse gets a bit more because it is growing so rapidly and is so popular. Ditto for Endurance. OTOH, while I know that a few Arabians barrel race, there is zero mention of rodeo in the article at all. Statistically, more Arabian horses are used for simple pleasure riding than anything, but pleasure riding gets two words. The Arabian article is already so long it is almost in need of being split into another piece, we really need to think about space constraints. Montanabw 18:17, 29 June 2006 (UTC)