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Well, considering this page is being re-created and we're most likely going to be moving most of the Anti-Freemasonry stuff from the Freemasonry article across here to shorten the Freemasonry article, we may as well begin properly by organising what content and structure is going to be used. There are many conspiracy theories about Freemasonry out there, finding credible arguments that can be backed up by fact is exceptionally difficult however.
Realistically, Wikipedia is about NPOV and if dealing with this in an NPOV way we must understand we are not dealing with 'facts standing against freemasonry', more so 'opinions of people held about freemasonry in a negative light and why'. Any suggestions? I'll move the content from the Freemasonry article over in 24 hours or so. Jachin 05:25, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
Do we have any further information on Rosenberg? I personally disagree with the validity of the Nuremberg trials as a whole, or the subsequent death penalties imposed, yet surely one had to do more than speak out against Freemasons to get hung at those trials? I know they were a circus where the inmates were running the asylum, but to that degree? Jachin 05:25, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
This lists of names is a bad article start. Why not start with the "Criticism, persecution, and prosecution" section of Freemasonry, if it is intended to split up that article? -- Pjacobi 20:02, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
User: grazon, would you please give reason for your recent wholesale deletions of large amounts of text? It's not obvious to me why all of that information was removed -- it looks like a fair amount of pertinent stuff is now gone, while some other oddities still remain. In particular, why was an actual quote from Pike removed, while a provably fictional quote remains? I can't see how a something Pike never said can be relevant here. In fact, the edits seem so odd to me that I was tempted to immediately revert them, but given recent tumult on this topic (and thinking you might be in-process), I decided to ask you to comment here, first, before I made any unilateral edits myself. Eaglizard 14:09, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
Repost of comments I just made in Freemasonry Talk Page under the anti-freemasonry page para. I also see someone just deleted a nights work of material I typed into this page, confirming my feelings I state in para below.
I spent about 40 minutes tonight adding some interesting info about the history of Freemasonry under the nazi's then I thought what is the point, there shouldn't be a serpate sub page for this 'anti' material anyways as it is integeral to the whole. I then read about subpages on Wiki and see that it is really something they are trying to get away from. If it is used it is only used sparingly and should be for extraneous material, which this under arbitration topic clearly is not. I also see that Dreamguy has once again deleted my addtional paragraph to the Taxil hoax with his usual caustic comments. So it appears to be still 'game on'. I have placed a redirect on the 'anti-freemasonry' page, and that is that. We are under arbitration and block and the subpage is not following Wiki guidlines. Lightbringer 07:56, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
Seehund -- The Nazis (and other Germans as well) thought that the Freemasons were partners in the international Jewish conspiracy. Here are some raw notes on the subject:
As early as late Sept 1923 the Nazi newspaper Voelkischer Beobachter attacked Generaloberst Hans von Seeckt, the commander of the German Army, in print as a pawn of sinister Judao-Masonic elements in German society. The German Defense Ministry ordered General Otto Hermann von Lossow, the military commander in Bavaria, to suppress the newspaper by force or resign, but von Lossow refused to do either. (Putsch 308-9)
In Sept 1935, Nazi authorities ordered all of the Lodges of Freemasons in Germany to dissolve and turn over their property to the state. Since the early 1920s, the Nazis had denounced Freemasonry as a sinister organization which worked to undermine German values as part of a general Judao-Masonic conspiracy. (Holo Ency 531)
On 13 Aug 1940, the Vichy government of France enacted a law prohibiting Freemasons from holding any public office. (Delarue, Gestapo 215)
On 6 Jan 1942, in a midday conversation with his intimates and staff, Adolf Hitler said: "I've realized one thing. The worst of Freemasonry is not so much the philosophic side as the fact that it's an immense enterprise of corruption. It's a handful of men who are responsible for the war." (Hitler's Secret Conversations 193)
Reich Security Main Office Department (RSHA Amt). IV B-3, under SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Wandesleben, was responsible for Gestapo activities against the Freemasons from 1943. RSHA Amt VII B-1, under SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Erich Ehlers, performed the same job for the RSHA generally in the same time frame.
Fay, Prof. Bernard (?-1978) -- Professor of American Civilization, College de France; Director, French National Library 1941-1944 {arrested by French partisans c. 27 Aug 1944 (NYT 28 Aug 1944:4:4); put on trial by a French court at Paris for "intelligence with the enemy" and publishing documents and lists for the arrests of Freemasons; convicted and sentenced to life imprisonment at hard labor 5 Dec 1946 (NYT 6 Dec 1946:10:3); escaped from prison hospital at Angers 2 Oct 1951 (NYT 3 Oct 1951:19:2); died 1978 ([email protected]).}
Flandin, Pierre-Etienne (c. 1889-13.6.1958) -- French Premier 1934-1935; French Foreign Minister 1936 and 13 Dec 1940-9 Feb 1941 {declared in Nov 1940 that "occult forces seeking to establish Judeo-Masonic domination" were responsible for WWII; arrested at Algiers c. 11 Dec 1943 (Purge p. 51); impending trial announced by French authorities (NYT 10 Oct 1944:5:3); investigation concluded 23 Jan 1946 dismissed charges of treason and intelligence with the enemy (LT 24 Jan 1946:3e); put on trial by the French High Court of Justice at Paris 23 Jul 1946 (LT 24 Jul 1946:3e; LT 26 Jul 1946:3e); convicted and sentenced to 5 years of national degradation 26 Jul 1946 (dégradation nationale); sentenced annulled the same day by the court (NYT 27 Jul 1946:5:6; LT 17 Jul 1946:4f) since M. Flandin had only served 56 days as a Vichy minister; died 13 Jun 1958 at St. Jean-Cap-Ferrat (Obits I, p. 198; Purge pps. 179-80).}
Platon, Charles (?-1944) [French Rear Admiral] -- French Minister of Colonies 1940; responsible for the French anti-Masonic police (responsable de la police antimaçonnique) {arrested by French partisans for collaboration c. 3 Aug 1944 (NYT 4 Aug 1944:3:1); arrest warrant issued by French provisional government 20 Sept 1944 (NYT 21 Sept 1944:4:4); reportedly convicted by a French court at Limoges and summarily executed by members of the French Forces of the Interior (Forces Françaises de l'Intérieur - FFI) 18 Aug 1944 ([email protected] ) or by firing squad in Oct 1944 (NYT 17 Oct 1944:8:6; LT 2 Jan 1947:3d).(Vichy France p. 124n).}
I think the flower pin worn by Freemasons after WWII was the "Forget-Me-Not," rather than the 4-leaf clover.
grazon 19:06, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Grazon, I don't see any reason to delete this link from the Anti-Masonry page. It doesn't appear to be grounded in inaccurate research, like the conspiracy sites: it just takes the position that Freemasonry is a religion, and since Masonic prayers aren't directed to Christ, it must be evil. It's a valid Anti-Masonic argument, if you accept its premises.-- SarekOfVulcan 05:03, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
I will remove this entire article before I alow it to become a "why Masons are evil page" grazon 05:35, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
I've been politely told to put up or shut up on Freemasonry, and I feel this page is an inherent part of that one. In fact, I don't think anything can be done for either article seperately, they're too interconnected. I'd like to make my first suggestion on this page, which unfortunately re-opens the hash-can of this article's name. Ie, shouldn't this article be either merged back into Freemasonry (I know, I know), or at the very least renamed to (perhaps) 'Criticisms of Freemasonry'? Let me first point out that I've already read the entire history here and most of Freemasonry (revision by revision), so I get the arguments for this page. But please answer this one question: is there now, or has there ever been, a movement or organized body that referred to itself (or is referred to by historians) as Anti-Freemasonry? In other words, is the titular subject of this page really an extant thing whose existence we can cite, or is it just a transparent euphemism for "Why Freemasonry is wrong", and a very bad POV-forkage? I propose we start from there. (And that's twice I had to merge edits, you guys are talking too fast! :) Eaglizard 05:52, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Listen everyone. I had an agreement with spinboy that I could put all the links I wanted in this page. All I have done was put one. Guess what? The f-ing thing stayed for a total of 2 days. The culprit who vandalized my link was Victrix. It is really getting to be a pain in the ass having to be subservient to masons. I don't do it the real world and I'm not about to start online.
Guess what? I wouldn't even dare to edit this page. I know that if I did, all hell would break loose! The page would be changed in 1 minute flat! "Tread softly ...," "the masons might not like your contribution," ... "wouldn't want to offend the brotherhood." What the hell is this place! A totalitarian regime! Who in the hell is monitoring the blatant hegemony that has become of this topic? What a racket this place is. Your world may start and end with wikipedia, but some of use have lives to live. Do me a favor, and keep your hands of my contribution. The link is:
Everybody got that? Leave the F-ing link alone! (forgot to sign my sig)-- XDev 19:03, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
This article is a collection of allegations, and the official masonic response right after it in the next paragraph. You guys got all your rebuttals right there in the text! And on top of this you want to rebut every single link that is added? Man you guys are something. Talk about propaganda.-- XDev 19:04, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Please read WP:NOT. -- File:Ottawa flag.png Spinboy 15:48, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
The last section (Anti-Freemasonry advocates) don't 'flow' as well as the rest... I feel it need a rewrite, without loosing the information off course. I'll see if I can't get the time myself, but certainly wouldn't mind a helping hand. ¨¨¨¨(my comment, unsigned because I got bananas for fingers and pressed the wrong key *blush* WegianWarrior 06:38, 24 October 2005 (UTC))
Since this is not going to go away without discussion, here goes:
The NYT article link to "Ritual gone wrong" is factually incorrect. The statement at the end of this article from the Grand Master of New York states clearly and unequivocally that this incident had nothing to do with accepted Masonic ritual.
Furthermore, this article explains that the incident took place at an initiation for a "Fellowcraft Club" that, while related tangentially to Masonry, has nothing to do with regular and official Masonic ritual.
For the above two reasons, I think the NYT article should be removed as not factually accurate. I have listed above both a Masonic and a non-Masonic source, and they both agree on the facts of the incident and the key point that is at issue here, which is that the events took place at a non-sanctioned event, and therefore have no bearing whatsoever on Masonry.
A third reason as to why it should be removed is that it is not an article that is visible to a reader unless they have registered with NYT.com. Therefore, it should be removed as not being an accessible source of information, even if it was factually correct (which it isn't).
As a note, linking to it from FreemasonryWatch is contrary to WP:Copyvio.
I'm hoping that an RFC will put this particular issue to rest. MSJapan 23:09, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
This link needs a response or clarification as well. The majority of the complaints against Masonry in the articles on the site refer to the blood oaths, which have more or less been removed from most jurisdictions (and were allegorical to begin with), and that one should swear no oaths to anyone besides Jesus. However, the ritual itself states that any obligation you take as a Mason will not affect any other obligation you have, religious or otherwise. Furthermore, the only example of ritual on the site is over 100 years old, is out of date, and refers (if correct) to how things were done in only one of 50 jurisdictions in the US, nevermind worldwide. The arguments are therefore based on hearsay and out of date info (any incidents that occurred are very non-specific as to time and place).
That being said, to avoid opening up a discussion thread for every link, I think all the links definitely need re-evaluation to comply with WP policies on fact-checking and verifiability, unless they are marked as examples of Anti-Masonry rather than legitimate sources of information. MSJapan 06:52, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
The entire article is based on Mackey's encyclopedia, which the author was supposedly told to get as an authoritative resource by someone at GLPA, after apparently asking for Masonry's religious position. This is patently ludicrous, because this question gets asked a lot, and the questioner is not going to be directed to a book published a hundred years ago. Furthermore, the major gripe of this article seems to be a logical rebuttal of Masonry based on the fundamental (ist) principle that "Christianity is the only true religion". It's looking more and more like the links section is going to be a rebuttal section, because half the stuff in there is patently ridiculous and wholly unsupported. MSJapan 06:13, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Let us research the Freemason's design of Washington D.C. This website studies the occultic symbolism incorporated into the U.S. capitol. Symbols including the upside-down pentagram or "Goathead" pentagram formed by the streets intentionally. It is, simply put, the symbol of Satanic worship. It's top four points represent the elements of the earth (ground, water, fire, air) and it's bottom point represents the spirit of Lucifer, Satan the Devil. The White House is purposely situated at that point. There is also a statue of George Washington that is modeled after the Satanic Baphomet by the Masons. How could any society or religion that would incorporate Satanic imagery into their designs be holy and good? I think everyone should do their research on the Holy Bible itself and not the religions that misinterpret it. Read the Book of Revelation and keep an open mind, for things in it are already coming true (911, Hurricane Katrina, the Mark of the Beast being an identification microchip that's already been invented). I am only trying to help people find truth in this world. Do not fight me until you have studied the Bible and the occult like I have, because from what I know I believe wholeheartedly that these things are true. [HAYASHI]
As far as I can tell, Wikipedia (and the rest of the world) seems to consider Chick tracts as complete garbage. Therefore, is it appropriate? MSJapan 06:13, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure if it's just me, but does anyone have any proof that Freemasonry as such had any part in this at all? The content of the article only mentions Freemasonry tangentially (IMHO), and only with respect to France, during a particular period of time. The references to other countries in more modern times don't seem to be supported very well. This sounds a lot like "The Freemasons caused the French Revolution". MSJapan 05:04, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Why don't you let the critics of Freemasonry do a page entited 'criticisms of freemasonry' or 'anti-freemasonry' and the promoters of Freemasonry can do a page entitled 'refutations of masonic criticism' or some such, and let the readers of Wikipedia read both perspectives and make their own minds up. That way we will stop spending all our time on reverts and 'brilliantly crafted' complaints that tie up all of the Wikipedia Arbitrators time?
Just an idea. Lightbringer 11:34, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
(Moved to the bottom of the talk page, as per convention on Wikipedia WegianWarrior 11:46, 1 November 2005 (UTC))
Uhm.. this is a page about Anti-Fremasonry (as the title suggest). So why did you ( Lightbringer) delete a relevant and fully referenced section? I can stab a guess at why, but I much rather hear what you have to say as opposed to jumping to conclusions. WegianWarrior 11:46, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Since the additions of the factual and verfiable responsa in this section did not apparently serve well enough to show that the majority of the works were not Masonic at all, I've got a new tack that might be acceptable to end the controversy.
While I was at the Secret Conclave of the 33 and a thirds over the weekend, held this year at Caesar's Palace (because some of the Egyptian motif helps to channel spirits better - Al Pike gets mad if we can't hear his Supreme Declarations, and Waite and Hall need things on the wall to point at during lectures), I was ableo to clear some of the mess up. Satan showed up fashionably late (with Jack the Ripper, who was apparently the secret guest this year). I didn't get to talk to Satan until after dinner (all of the US Presidents and other politicians were too busy discussing the New World Order with him; I guess Pat Robertson really threw a spanner in the works with that book a few years ago), but he basically said that he is well aware of the fact that we don't worship him, and the only reason he keeps showing up at Lodges all over the place is because he likes the dinners. MSJapan 17:07, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
(new editor: please bare with me if I screw up a tad ;)) IMO this page, anti-freemasonry (FM for now), certainly has it's merits since they sure had their share of persecution and defamation. Only focusing on the alleged satanic nature of FM or the charge of satanism, is missing the point though. I think FM's unique position as (perceived) opponent of established religion on one side and government/law on the other is a rather interesting phenomenon. Trying to stuff it all in the main FM article would, again IMO, obscure the information about FM and could create some unwanted bias against (unwanted since the article should be unbiased, not because I think there should be no bias against FM).
Nevertheless, I would like to point some stuff out about these satanism allegations and since I don't want to march in here while you regs are currently having a debate about the contents I thought I'd bring them up here. Because, you see, it looks like some of the quotes (and rebuttals) are using the wrong word. Satan in stead of Lucifer. And this is an important distinction since these are NOT one and the same, contrary to what latter christians would like you to believe. Without treading into too much detail, and probably goof somewhere due to lack of thorough education on the matter, I present to you two links, one detailing about how Lucifer got mixed up with Satan (from a theological site) and another describing how the term Lucifer ended up in masonic writings (from a masonic source, interesting nevertheless).
linkage: - "Lucifer" in Isaiah 14:12-17
(note BTW how the third quote under "Claims" looks very much like the Isaiah passage.. IIRC there's a relation between those two but I don't know for sure..)
I think that, before continuing the whole "FM == Satanism" part of this anti-fm page several of the quotes as well as the rebuttals need to be cleaned up to reflect on this in order to avoid further confusement. -- Trickpath 05:11, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
I just stumbled across this article in my travels, and I have to say it's one of the worst I've ever read. The section on "Claims that Freemasonry worships Satan" is particularly bad, it's like a flame war between two sides. No context or NPOV discussion is provided, just "masons are bad" "no we're not" "yes you are" over and over. Can someone please clean this article up and boil it down to just the facts (i.e. accurate and verifiable instances of anti-masonic incidents)? No claims, no rebuttals, just a proper encyclopaedic entry. Honestly, you guys are like children.
Alexforcefive 16:37, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
I furthermore think you're commenting on something that you really don't know about, but, since you don't like the Satanic writings section, how else would you presume to deal with a central theme of Anti-Masonry when every claim that is made is a doctored claim? Don't you think it would be POV to state those claims and not give a rebuttal, when a cursory check of facts shows creative editing everywhere? For example, Blavatsky's writings: her Wikipedia article unequivocally states that she said was never a Mason, yet her writings are used as proof that Masons worship Satan, never mind the fact that the quote is culled together out of five pages of material and only appears on one Internet site that everyone else copies. Thus, the facts state a POV contrary to the stated claim's POV. How is that not showing both sides of the argument as per policy? MSJapan 17:59, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm starting to see a trend again, and I'm not best pleased with it at all. Just so we don't have a repeat of the mess we just got done cleaning up, I would like to see an RFC on the following, which will become a binding policy on this article:
All major edits (major edits being defined as adding external links, or making changes to information contained within sections, apart from correcting flow issues or typos) must be discussed prior to being made to conform to editing by consensus. Any major edits made without consensus will be reverted. MSJapan 01:37, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
1. I agree with this. MSJapan 01:37, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
2. I agree with this. Call of Duty 03:09, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
3. I disagree with this. It goes against WP:Bold. -- SarekOfVulcan 05:21, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
4. Comment: I will neither argree, nor disagree at this time. However, I will point out that the suggested policy is very restrictive, and likely to turn potential new editors away from the article. WegianWarrior 07:01, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm more concerned with the comments you made here however:
-While I was at the Secret Conclave of the 33 and a thirds over the weekend, held this year at Caesar's Palace (because some of the Egyptian motif helps to channel spirits better - Al Pike gets mad if we can't hear his Supreme Declarations, and Waite and Hall need things on the wall to point at during lectures), I was able to clear some of the mess up. Satan showed up fashionably late (with Jack the Ripper, who was apparently the secret guest this year). Ididn't get to talk to Satan until after dinner (all of the US Presidents and other politicians were too busy discussing the New World Order with him; I guess Pat Robertson really threw a spanner in the works with that book a few years ago), but he basically said that he is well aware of the fact that we don't worship him, and the only reason he keeps showing up at Lodges all over the place is because he likes the dinners. MSJapan 17:07, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps this could be the basis for a reworked paragraph on Freemasonry and Satanism? Call of Duty 03:01, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
I recently proposed a merge of Persecution of Freemasons into Anti-Freemasonry. After reading about the conflict here, I hope I haven't opened a can of worms.
Factors to take into account:
A final decision on the merge should probably wait until the RFA is sorted out. -- DDerby- (talk) 08:24, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
D. David Will, at [2]-- SarekOfVulcan 04:57, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Recently User:Novembre 19 inserted some text in the article that I find, how to put it, strangely remicent of another editor who is temp banned from editing any articles relating to freemasonry. In that block of text there is a reference to something called The Frederick the Great Association. A quick google reveals 19 pages (on 11 sites) refering to this, one of which is a Wikipedia RfA page, and the rest seems to mostly be copies of each other. Several of the pages are dead (404) or blocked by websense as hate sites. The sites I do manage to access are not very encycopedic, nor do they hide the fact that their prime goal is to attack masonry.
User:Novembre 19 also deleted a paragraph which explained that several masons continued thier masonic work in secret under the Nazis - presumably it don't fit his POV. It is however a fact that it happened, both in Germany and occupied nations.
I've reverted these changes. Until reliable, neutral references can be found for this, I propose keeping it out. WegianWarrior 07:40, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps this article should be a little more encyclopediatic. Take Anti-Semetism for example, that is how an article should run for a group of individuals who have historically been persecuted. It alludes to the reasoning of persecution, but doesn't outright condone it like this article does.
Freemasons are just as if not more so persecuted as Jews are, being because there are still more public lambastings of them than Jews. To fight anti-semetic feelings the B'nith B'rai and the Anti Defamation League were organised, however it appears the Freemasons have no such body to prevent outright public vilification.
I would like to see some respect shown in this article and for the suffering of others based on crackpot theories and religious zeal that still goes on, in 2005, in a world that is supposed to be civilised.
So, perhaps, if people agree with this concept, we can model this more on the lines of the above article and not just have it as a sandbox for conspiracy theorists and born again christian cultists to lambaste a group of people. 211.30.72.208 10:15, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
A new user Daniel Matheson, did two edits on this page today, which not only matches the edits done by a previous, currently banned from editing any articles relating to freemasonry, editor, but also was a copyvio from The Catholic Encyclopedia (which is, according to the website, ©2003. Because of this, I reverted the article back to the last version by MSJapan .
As a sidenote, the new user Daniel Matheson claims that the version he replaced was highly speculative and unreferenced pov material, while I find it to be not just NPOV, but also quite well referenced in the References / notes: sub section. WegianWarrior 13:50, 25 December 2005 (UTC)