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There are various anabaptist groups. No one anabaptist denomination can speak for all anabaptists.I have also noted in other material that not all anabaptists spoke theologicaly but rather expressed their beliefs in confessions of faith and debated with other christians their 'position' on certain topics e.g communion. The words 'Contempory anabaptism' is relative only to the denomination which is presenting their ideas. No one anabaptist denomination can speak for all anabaptists. There are various types of Mennonites, conservative, progressive etc. Each has their own particular 'brand' of theology.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.108.249.204 ( talk) 01:17, October 6, 2007
Not only have some drifted away from their traditional pacifist, or should I say 'peace making' stance, but some anabaptists do not not seem to understand the significance of what anabaptism is. For example in a recent (Australian) ABC program it was thought by some that anabaptism can be expressed by Catholics, a church that has enshrined their 'just war' theology, (and infant baptism) in the their current catechism.Any catholic that thinks otherwise is not considered in full communion with the catholic church and should not receive communion.I assume these anabaptist -catholics do receive communion when they go to Mass. So the idea of catholics and other 'just war'and infant 'baptism' denominations embracing anabaptist ideals is a farce as far as I am concerned. As Tertullian stated in 197 AD,'The Christian does no harm even to his foe'. I can fully understand how some 'anabaptists' can be seen to have lost the plot. Also you might want to check out what christian denomination the defence minister of Holland was prior to the second world war. Another interesting exercise is looking at how some anabaptists voted prior to Bush being elected. I refer you to a recent 'The Mennonite' magazine' article on the matter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.49.255.112 ( talk) 03:25, October 10, 2007
These days 'worldly' popular public opinion seems to be driving theology rather than scripture and the Holy Spirit(e.g political correctness), therefore it seems that theology looks for feed back from society. Both seem to be feeding off each other. Therefore today, I believe, public opinion has become inseparable from theology.A Theological view point seems to live or die based on what values the world has or wants, when a particular theology arrives on the scene. So therefore to see trends in theology one need only do the research and then tie it to sociology. Augustine did not become a victim of the cult of popularity by NOT preaching that war could be justified.His 'just war' philosophy seems to have been popular at the time and so it thrived, as is the philosophy of peace making, for now. As in most dramas, the actors perform to an audience, otherwise the actor's popularity dies. Anabaptism became popular because poeple were dying from hunger and oppression.They were not concerned with theology.(you can't eat theology).They needed a church that practised what scripture taught about love in action, not in words alone, and a church which was guided by the Holy Spirit. Not that type of theology which is intellectually stimulating and acceptable to the academic world and which I believe we are now witnessing again today in the 'peace making' philosophy. Conservative minded people who are Christian want to be guided by scripture and the Holy Spirit, not by popular opinion or academic self indulgence which is taught to others so as to make their Christianity seem 'relevent' to today's so called 'modern' weatern world. A western world of lonliness and lack of social connectiveness, and selfish indifference to others in the very suburbs in which they live. A confession of faith formed by agreements between members of a congregation/church is one thing, 'theology' is quite a different species.Grass roots practises, such as hospitality, and a sense that someone cares are what made Christianity popular amongst the people of the Roman Empire, not theology. I believe Christianity started to die the minute philosophy in theology became more important than people's needs.Hence, I believe meeting people's needs were the driving force behind anabaptism, not theology.Those needs differ from country to country, but anabaptistism's practise of hospitality is what is needed in the west, not peace making or theology.
Why do you think my comments are not relevent here. After all we are talking about anabaptist theology and how and why it evolved are we not? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.49.255.112 ( talk) 05:43, 12 October 2007 (UTC) Some anabaptist/Mennonite groups in North America now accept infant baptism.See the online version of 'The Mennonite' magazine and go to the article 'Mennonite but not anabaptist'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.111.135.208 ( talk) 08:09, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Those who kept a Saturday Sabbath were a minority, a very small minority, from my understanding. Thus this point should reflect that the Sabbath-keepers were a small minority. My understanding is that the Sabbath-keepers were only a few congregations mostly in Silesia. As far as I know, none of the Swiss Brethren, Dutch Anabaptists, South German Anabaptists, nor Hutterites were Sabbath-keepers. Thus the Sabbath-keepers were probably about 1% of early Anabaptism. No current Anabaptist 6denomination is Sabbath-keeping that I am aware of (of course I don't know everything). Thus we need the article to reflect these realities. Mikeatnip ( talk) 12:30, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
Truth is not a democracy. All traditional Anabaptists (excluding Mennonite denominations) both rest on Saturdays AND worship on the Lord's day. As far as I know there are no Anabaptists who have ever worshipped on Saturday as the Lord's day and that was never intended to be the meaning which you took from the facts I inserted. How about keeping your ego in check and calming down? So what if you took the wrong end of the stick? Is the world going to end now? I have nothing against you for it. Why declare that everything I wrote must now be be silenced at all costs now? It is obvious you are not an Anabaptist and don't know much about the topic. Hubermaier's converts simply wrote about the importance of resting on Saturdays for Anabaptists because Anabaptists are fundamentalist observers of the New Testament Old faith as were the early Christians (who indisputable kept holy the Sabbath day). This has nothing to do with Saturday worship and of course no one is saying that all of the modern denominations descended from the original Anabaptists still keep Holy the Saturday Sabbath. But it is also wrong to pretend that all Anabaptists have adopted Dunkard 1st Day Sabbatarianism (whose total population was only 1035 by 2021 which means the Bei Abedan Schule is more noteworthy these days with over 2100 members as of 2023 and growing) which is currently implied in the article. So there has been a gross misunderstanding by those who gave in to the corporal tendency to gang up on and silence something they misunderstand. But I will not resist. Ioan.Church ( talk) 09:00, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
I am sorry to say Mike but you are still way off base from the point and NB my point has already been removed from the article and I was arguing to have it restored yet am not resisting anyone's edits. But now I have to correct my point slightly because I had said that I don't think there have ever been any Anabaptists who observed Saturday as the Lord's day. But now I see that I was wrong. Dr. L. W. E. Rauwenhoff, professor of church history at Leyden presents us in his ‘History of Protestantism,’ with an extensive list of the beliefs of a sabbatarian branch of the Dutch-German Anabaptists of the 16th century who were in many ways similar to those of the Waldenses. The sixth article of faith says: “You must keep Saturday as the Day of the Lord, because God has ordained that day as such and not Sunday, that men have made for that.” [1] So not only were Hubmaier's students promoting rest on Saturday (while not denying Sunday as the Lord's day) there were 7th Day Anabaptists too who held that Saturday was the Lords day. In the end my main point still stands that the opinion of the tiny Dunkards sect (that Sunday is both the Lord's day and the day of rest) should not be presented as if it is the position of all Anabaptists. That is still my only real point. What we really need here to clear up the matter is simply some input from the traditional (i.e. non-Mennonite) Anabaptist sects other than the Dunkards of course. [2] As for Anupam's claims on percentages BRING YOUR EVIDENCE!! Ioan.Church ( talk) 13:55, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
I reverted your disruptive edit because 1.you have not yet backed up your claim on percentages and 2 no concensus has yet been arrived and 3 it has already been established that the information on Glaidt and Fisher (and I almost forgot to mention the newly discussed sabbatarian branch of the Dutch-German Anabaptists) is factual. Kindly engage in discussion and prove that the comment about Glaidt and afisher is false USING REFERENCES before you remove it again. Ioan.Church ( talk) 09:35, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
Personal anecdotes about how many Menonites you have met as an Anabaptist who does not keep Holy the 7th day is interesting but not an unbiased source. On the other hand these are an interesting start to get familiar with the context. We should also not forget that Anabaptists claim they obey everything in the NT so quoting the NT is the best way to describe Anabaptist beliefs excluding those groups who have made compromises with modern life. I will come back to add more from. Time to time when life permits. [3] and this [4] and this [5] and this [6] Ioan.Church ( talk) 10:18, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
You seem to be ignoring the part which says "and today only a very small minority of people who are called Anabaptists adhere to it" which is proven by the existence of the group websites linked to. Furthermore respect for 7th day rest is mentioned in the Anabaptist World article as one of the points of common ground with Seventh Day Adventist. So even if the Ancient tradition is still preserved today by a minority (which the YouTube channel shows is anyway a bigger community than the Dunkards), the point is that it is still a well-attested and persistent substream worthy of mention. I remind that the current wording of the article plays down this fact. Ioan.Church ( talk) 15:11, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
The 3 revert rule only applies when an article is reverted to the exact same condition (with no intermediate edits from other users) 3 times by the same user. The only person here who is coming close to breaking that rule at this point is Anupam. It is time you calmed down and started to engage in the discussion to move things forward appropriately please and stop being disruptive. There is nothing wrong with being bold. Ioan.Church ( talk) 00:08, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
Perhaps there is a language problem here. The sources I have provided are proving my point. But I don't think you have understood what my point is because you yourself in your previous comment to me here prove my point for me. And here is another reference.
[9]. Now the question really is why does Anupam want all reference to this phenomen removed from the article? Is it a matter of wording? Let's play with the wording a bit until we arrive at a sentence or paragraph that we can achieve concensus on.
Ioan.Church (
talk) 00:54, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
You provided that evidence yourself in your quote above. Ioan.Church ( talk) 08:05, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
The contention is a matter of WP:WEIGHT. It is not that 7th day Anabaptists have never existed. It is recognized that they have and do exist.
It is simply a matter of whether such a small sunset of Anabaptists are significant enough to mention in the article.
My stance is that because 2 of the Anabaptist theologians who promoted the 7th day view have their own Wikipedia articles and because the current groups promoting 7th day Anabaptism are at least twice the size of the Dunkards (whose position IS mentioned in the article) and unlike the Dunkards have blogs and YouTube channels and wiki sites and articles written by mainstream Anabaptist websites discussing the position they hold, therefore due WP:WEIGHT requires their position should also be mentioned as a parallel minority position.
Mikeatnip argues that: "The scholarly consensus is that 7th-day Sabbatarianism was only adhered to by a very small minority of early Anabaptists, and today only a very small minority of people who are called "Anabaptists" adhere to it. He also said "traditional Anabaptism has never held to Seventh-day Sabbatarianism except in very small numbers" suggesting 1%.
While I dispute the estimation of numbers I have made a concession not to dispute that it is a minority opinion and agree with him that there should be "no major emphasis on that one particular viewpoint" as long as the references to the theologian and groups which held that position are included in the article so as not to give the impression that Anabaptist theology is a monolith.
Anabaptists are fundamentalist observers of the New Testament Old faith as were the early Christians (who indisputable kept holy the Saturday Sabbath).
Mikeatnip said "this point should reflect that the Sabbath-keepers were a small minority. My understanding is that the Sabbath-keepers were only a few congregations mostly in Silesia" and he recognizes that "some "Anabaptists do hold to keeping a Saturday Sabbath"
Anupam said "We do not want to mislead readers into thinking that a substantial portion of Anabaptists hold seventh-day Sabbatarian views". I agree and also say we do not want to mislead readers into thinking that no portion of Anabaptists have ever held seventh-day Sabbatarian views. The minority Dunkards are mentioned so should Glaidt and Fisher and the Dutch Anabaptists as well as the Moravians, Bohemians and Silesians.
I have also corrected my mistaken belief that "there are no Anabaptists who have ever worshipped on Saturday as the Lord's day" but I have also made clear "that was never intended to be the meaning which you took from the facts I inserted."
It had been accepted that John D. Roth is a respected scholar who says this: "Most North American Mennonites are skeptical about SDA theology, especially its teachings on Sabbath worship " meaning that the opposite is also true.
Also we agree that there have been Bohemian and Moravians and Silesian Anabaptists who have rested on Saturdays since before the 1500s. Mikeatnip said "there were a small number of early Anabaptists who kept a Saturday Sabbath. They were clustered in Silesia." And he said he is" personally OK with the modified sentence added to be in the article". He also brought This book ( https://www.amazon.com/Andreas-Fischer-Sabbatarian-Anabaptists-Reformation/dp/0836112938/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1488067459&sr=1-1&keywords=andreas+fischer) about Andreas Fischer as a reference.
I wanted to make clear that this has nothing to do with Saturday worship and of course that I was not saying that all of the modern denominations descended from the original Anabaptists still keep Holy the Saturday Sabbath. But I also wanted to point out that is equally wrong to give the impressiom as was implied in the article that all Anabaptists have adopted Dunkard 1st Day Sabbatarianism (whose total population was only 1035 by 2021 which means the Bei Abedan Schule is more noteworthy these days with over 2100 members as of 2023 and growing). Still, I also compromised and changed my position after I discovered that Dr. L. W. E. Rauwenhoff, professor of church history at Leyden in his ‘History of Protestantism,’ presents us with an extensive list of the beliefs of a sabbatarian branch of the Dutch-German Anabaptists of the 16th century who were in many ways similar to those of the Waldenses. The sixth article of faith says: “You must keep Saturday as the Day of the Lord, because God has ordained that day as such and not Sunday, that men have made for that.” [10]
It has already been established that the information on the Moravian Anabaptists and Oswald Glaidt and Andreas Fischer (Anabaptist) and the sabbatarian branch of the Dutch-German Anabaptists is factual.
We should also not forget that Anabaptist theology is practical and claim they obey everything in the NT so quoting the NT is the best way to describe Anabaptist beliefs (obviously excluding those groups who have made compromises with modern life).
All one has to do was Google search for 7th day or Sabbatarian Anabaptist / Anabaptists / Anabaptism and one can find plenty of very good leads.
[11] on page 412, "It is generally supposed that Seventh-day Sabbatarianism took its rise among the Anabaptists." even if the scholar disagrees the fact is that he reports the GENERAL SUPPOSITION which is backed up by the sources on Glaidt and Fisher and the Moravians and Dutch Anabaptists from whom derived the Seventh Day Men long before there was any 7th Day Baptist Church.
[16] here even Mikeatnip agrees that technically Seventh-day Adventists are "Anabaptists".
[17] talking about a Jewish perspective not just to be random without any relevance to the Anabaptist context.
The point is clear that 7th day is not a dead topic among Anabaptists but very much a sticking talking point even if it were true that the majority wish it wasn't.
Furthermore respect for 7th day rest is mentioned in the Anabaptist World article as one of the points of common ground with Seventh Day Adventist. So even if the Ancient tradition is still preserved today by a minority (which the YouTube channel and the existence of the group websites linked to prove is anyway a bigger community than the Dunkards), the point is that it is still a well-attested and persistent substream worthy of mention. I remind that the current wording of the article plays down this fact.
The only conflict is over equal WP:WEIGHT. If the position of the Dunkard (who only had 1035 members 23 years ago with no websites no blogs no YouTube channels and no online encyclopedias) deserves mention then equally also must be mentioned the POSITION of the Moravian Anabaptists and Oswald Glaidt and Andreas Fischer (Anabaptist) and the sabbatarian branch of the Dutch-German Anabaptists as well as those living groups (with websites and YouTube channels and their own online encyclopedias etc.) It is very little to ask. Ioan.Church ( talk) 10:18, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
Well you will need to make that clear in the article. Meanwhile the wording of the section on the minority view should be cleaned up a bit. Ioan.Church ( talk) 12:43, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
I am happy to leave the section as it stands now following this edit. Ioan.Church ( talk) 13:32, 14 March 2024 (UTC)