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Added text from article I originally wrote in 1998 and published it on the Web....
Dlloyd 20:05, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Portions of this text are :
"Copyright © 1995-1997 The Fossil Company Ltd. © 1997-1999 The British Fossil Company Inc. and licensed by the owner under the terms of the Wikipedia copyright." Please contact me if you need further clarification on this.
Dlloyd 00:39, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Could use some more clarification on the aptychus/anaptychus. I've also heard the term diaptycus used. There is now also an article at aptychus. -- DanielCD 20:51, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
I am currently working on getting the classification straightened out in this article and standardized across all the ammonite articles. -- DanielCD 15:20, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
I don't think the current classification on the page is OK. Here is what I came up after some research. I tried too look up references for each entry. I'll finish this tomorow and after everything is verified I will replace the current one or create a "List of families" page. Any additions are welcome. Lejean2000 16:31, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Moved to my user page Lejean2000 20:54, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I did a lot of searching for proper classification, and it's a royal pain. There are a multitude of different schemes. Also: several people have monkeyed with it since I last looked at it. If you think you've got one that works, please put it up for discussion. -- DanielCD 19:59, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Lejean2000 16:15, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Whoa. Anyone have any ideas as to exactly how many orders of ammonite there are? The classification here only gives a few, but
the Sepkoski database seems to list some others which I may have missed while compiling the
List of ammonites. Any help finding what orders are really ammonites in that database that didn't get added to the list would be appreciated.
Abyssal leviathin 17:50, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
I noticed someone put the term ammolite in the sentence on irridescent ammonites. It should be noted, however, that ammolite and the irridescent ammonites are not quite the same thing. I'll have to look into it again and refresh my memory before I make any changes though. If anyone can clarify the difference, please do. -- DanielCD 14:44, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Ammon, as well as being the name of an Egyptian god (also spelt "Amun", "Amon", "Amen" and "Imanand"), is the name of a people living along the Jordan river in biblical times. Unfortunately the link 'Ammon' takes us to the Jordanian peoples, not the Egyption god. I am not sufficiently trained in editing Wikipedia pages to fix this. I think the 'Ammon' Page needs a Disambiguation Page. —This unsigned comment was added by 139.168.9.181 ( talk • contribs) .
Only the last and largest chamber, the body chamber, was occupied by the living animal at any given moment. As it grew, it added newer and larger chambers to the open end of the coil. I've seen statements to this effect before, but I still don't understand how this proposition can be correct. It would mean that ammonites that died old would have more whirls than ammonites that died young. But, for example, Asteroceras Obtusum always has five whirls, regardless of size or age at death. Regards, Nick. Nick 08:50, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Cephal-odd 01:54, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for your comments on my comments. It would also be interesting to count the chambers in a number of sectioned ammonites of the same species to see if the number of chambers was always the same (unfortunately, I don't have the material to do this). But if the number of chambers was always the same, there might be some more explaining to be done. Regards, Nick. Nick 11:36, 11 May 2006 (UTC). Added later for DanielCD: sorry, yes, I meant within any one species, but taking A. obtusum as an example because of the sheer number of specimens that have been recovered. Regards, Nick. Nick 11:52, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
It's heartening to see world-class experts writing for Wikipedia and I'd like to second DanielCD's thanks. I might not have explained myself very well, so at the risk of dragging things out I'd just like to restate my problem.
A friend of mine has over the last thirty years or so has had hundreds of specimens of A. obtusum pass through his hands, mainly from Black Venn and from the area at Charmouth where the flatstones come down to the beach. In conversation he once mentioned that every complete specimen he had ever seen had five whorls; never four and never six, but always five. For myself, I've come to regard five whorls as being one of the defining properties of A. Obtusum and I think that a specimen having four whorls or six whorls would look so odd as to attract immediate attention.
The proposition is that the creature occupied a living chamber and that when it outgrew the chamber it created a new one next door and moved into it. Over the life-term of the creature this sequence was repeated many times and created the characteristic spiral shape of the ammonite. So, on the face of it, one would expect to find at least a few specimens of A. Obtusum with fewer or greater than five whorls, but so far as I'm aware such specimens do not exist. I find this difficult to reconcile with the idea that the creature repeatedly built and occupied new chambers in the way suggested (but from what I've written you'll be aware that I have no expert knowledge in this field).
Regards, Nick. Nick 09:51, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Hello all! I am a Canadian paleontology grad student (graptolites) who previously worked on Jurassic ammonites. I thought I would offer an analogy that might clarify things.
Imagine studying a human ‘death assemblage’, i.e., a graveyard, and doing a study on size variations of the human remains. You would immediately notice that the vast majority fell within a size range of 5-6 feet. Perhaps if your sample were small enough you might not find any juvenile specimens. There are two reasons for this. First, after the initial risks of infant mortality, likelihood of death in a given year does not really start to substantially increase until old age (e.g., your '5 whorl' size). Second, humans, like ammonites, maintain their adult size for a longer period of time than then any given stage of their juvenile size. As Dr. Monks notes, although adult ammonites continue to grow, it is at a substantially decreased rate, and although new chambers are added, new whorls will likely not be. So, not only is a larger percentage of any given living population at the 'adult stage' than any intermediate stage, but the risk of dying in that stage is substantially increased, both because risk of death rises again at the end stages of life, and because the period of time occupied by the adult stage is so much longer than juveniles, so the cumulative risk of death is in this stage is higher. Now, humans are ‘adults’ for about 80% of their lives, and this is likely a much, much longer ratio than ammonites, but it should give an idea on how a palaeontological sample (which is a census of death, not life, remember) can be biased towards adult forms.
Add to this a few other points: 1) There is likely a preservation bias towards adult specimens, since the quiet death that results in a preserved shell (rather than a smashed one) disproportionately results from age related effects, e.g., disease, senility, etc, rather than, for example, getting eaten by a marine reptile; 2) There is likely also a collection bias, as the most prized specimens for any collector (the ones most likely to be taken out) are always large, complete ammonites; and 3) there may well be an additional geographic effect, i.e., it is possible that for this species different life stages were completed in different habitats and that the collecting areas represent only adult stage habitat (this is pure speculation for this species, I don't know anything about it). For example, mass accumulations of belemnites have been argued to result from post-mating die offs (like salmon) in shallow waters, while regular habitat was in much deeper waters, a pattern seen in some modern squids. If this were the case you would expect to see only sexually mature specimen, i.e., adult specimens, in some outcrops.
Hope this helps!
Cheers!
Jason Loxton —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 141.109.52.63 ( talk • contribs).
This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force in an effort to ensure all listed Good articles continue to meet the Good article criteria. In reviewing the article, I have found there are some issues that may need to be addressed.
I will check back in no less than seven days. If progress is being made and issues are addressed, the article will remain listed as a Good article. Otherwise, it may be delisted (such a decision may be challenged through WP:GAR). If improved after it has been delisted, it may be nominated at WP:GAN. Feel free to drop a message on my talk page if you have any questions, and many thanks for all the hard work that has gone into this article thus far. Regards, Corvus coronoides talk 00:28, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
In order to uphold the quality of Wikipedia:Good articles, all articles listed as Good articles are being reviewed against the GA criteria as part of the GA project quality task force. While all the hard work that has gone into this article is appreciated, unfortunately, as of October 25, 2007, this article fails to satisfy the criteria, as detailed below. For that reason, the article has been delisted from WP:GA. However, if improvements are made bringing the article up to standards, the article may be nominated at WP:GAN. If you feel this decision has been made in error, you may seek remediation at WP:GAR.
The page talks of this being only acknowledged "in relatively recent years". As I was taught about sexual dimorphism in Ammonites during an undergraduate geology course in 1971-1974 at Cambridge, with clear examples of extreme cases being presented, it is only in geological terms that it can be called "relatively recent"! -- APRCooper ( talk) 16:20, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
Regarding this article and Ammonoidea and ammonoids redirected to it.
Ammonoidea is a proper taxon within the Cephalopoda, commonly thought of as a subclass. It deserves an article of its own, under that title. and with taxobox.
Ammonoid is simply the familiar term for Ammonoidea and refers to any member of the subclass. The term can be linked directly to Ammonoidea without going around through redirect.
Ammonite, as it refers to ammonoids, is a vernacular term without taxonomic meaning. In the general sense it can refer to any member or members of the Ammonoidea as in the Ceratitida are ammonites from the Triassic, or in a more specific sence to the Ammonitida as in Lytoceras is a Jurassic ammonite. Ammonite might need a page of its own to explain the term and its origin, without going into the biology and taxonomy, and without the need for a taxobox.
Ammonoidea is alway capitalized, ammonoid and ammonite only at the beginning of a sentence.
From my perspective as a paleontologist the whole set of ammonite, ammonoid, and Ammonoidea articles need revision with Ammonoidea being the principal. The scientifically relevant material in the Ammonite article could be converted as is. The supplimental material regarding the history of the term can be left to a short explanation of the meaning of ammonite in a separate page.
I'm reluctant to make major "mess ups with other peoples work without some sort of concensus. So how about it.
Also in a different vein, anything in this talk page before 2008 is obsolite and could well be delited.
Regards John J.H.McDonnell, talk:J.H.McDonnell. Mar.07, 2009
I re-did the Ammonite article as the proper taxon, Ammonoidea, with a separate shorter article defining Ammonite with links in both directions. For readers simply wanting to know what an ammonite it, it's there. For those with a more in depth understanding of paleontology, Ammmonoidea should be there. This brings up another issue.
If wikipedia article are written for the average reader (lowest common denominator) then let's have a rule , write to the 4th grade level. If they are to have in depth, encyclopedic value then certain protocals should be followed. One is that any article requiring a taxobox be written under the the name of a valid taxon.
p.s.Snek01's idea on a fix isn't a bad one at that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by J.H.McDonnell ( talk • contribs) 00:34, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
Wait, why does this page link to pokemon? Yeah, let's say in an absurd fashion they look alike, but still... pokemon?! 92.81.147.203 ( talk) 17:48, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
The article states that ammonites appeared first in the Lower Jurassic Period. I believe, while they achieved their highest level of diversity during the Mesozoic, they first appeared in the Lower Devonian, about 390 million year ago ( a difference of 190 million years). There are many references - just look on Google or in any decent book on fossils. -AJ Rogers —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.57.169 ( talk) 13:39, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
What about the supposed Lower Paleogene ammonites from Denmark? They should at least be mentioned. Dysmorodrepanis ( talk) 13:42, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
It was suggested about a year ago (June 2009) that Ammonoidea and Ammonite be merged. Since the two articles are essentially on the same subject, this would be appropriate. However Ammonite should be merged into Ammonoidea, with Ammonoidea a retained article, not the other way around. Ammonoidea is the proper scientific term for the taxon, the particular cephalopod subclass. Ammonite is sort of a slang term and can apply to any ammonoid or in a more limited sense to any member of the Jurassic -Cretaceous Order Ammonitida. J.H.McDonnell ( talk) 21:34, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and merged Ammonoidea (which was originally a copy/paste move of Ammonite) back into this article. If there is consensus to do so, this article can be moved to the title Ammonoidea by an admin (see Wikipedia:Requested moves). One remaining issue is that the taxobox does not agree with the Classification section, specifically with respect to Lytoceratida and Phylloceratida. mgiganteus1 ( talk) 05:02, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
I must be missing something. What is the evidence for: "Starting from the late Silurian, ammonoids ..."? My experience is that the first ammonoids are Devonian. Is there a reference for Silurian ammonoids? Wilson44691 ( talk) 20:14, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
The introduction says that the name comes from the Egyptian Amun, but Deboarh Cadbury's book The Dinosaur Hunters has this:
Which is correct? 80.74.16.198 ( talk) 15:40, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
I'm assuming this is useful and should be incorporated into the article at some point? Crimsonraptor | (Contact me) Dumpster dive if you must 23:33, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
These two sections basically mean the same thing. I'm rather annoyed that they were added individually. Although I'm uncertain of the factual merit of the inclusion of either one, seeing that they are least referenced, I'm going to do the minor legwork of combining them into one subsection. Theinsomniac4life ( talk) 23:09, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
I think someone should explain the differences between ammonites and nautiloids. I mean they do look similar. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.152.161.130 ( talk) 14:07, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian ( talk) 19:29, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
Ammonite →
Ammonoidea – Ammonite is a rather ambiguous vernacular term which may refer to Ammonoidea as a whole or more strictly to
Ammonitida or
Ammonitina. Moving this article to its taxon name in line with the other two would avoid some of this confusion. Whether ammonite should then be turned into a disambiguation page (i.e. moved from
Ammonite (disambiguation)) or redirected to one of these three taxa (or a combination of the two, cf.
Pterodactyl and
Pterodactyl (disambiguation)) is another matter. My preference would be for the third option, with ammonite redirecting to Ammonoidea and the hatnote pointing to an expanded
Ammonite (disambiguation) that covers the various taxa.
mgiganteus1 (
talk) 16:57, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
No mention of shell chemistry in the section describing the shell, nor either at Nautiloid - is anyone competent out there willing to add a paragraph? The fact that aragonite and calcite have different solubility is often so important in taphonomy of cephalopods that I think it should be detailed here. 22:52, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
The lack of citations has been noted... but the following paragraph makes little logical sense and should be cited or removed: "One reason given for their demise is the Cretaceous ammonites, being closely related to coleoids, had a similar reproductive strategy in which huge numbers of eggs were laid in a single batch at the end of the lifespan. These, along with juvenile ammonites, are thought to have been part of the plankton at the surface of the ocean, where they were killed off by the effects of an impact. Nautiloids, exemplified by modern nautiluses, are conversely thought to have had a reproductive strategy in which eggs were laid in smaller batches many times during the lifespan, and on the sea floor well away from any direct effects of such a bolide strike, and thus survived." The paragraph implies that because nautiloids had a different reproductive strategy to ammonites the nautiloids survived the extinction that knocked off ammonites. But the logical conclusion should be that coleoids (which are used as an example of what ammonite reproduction was probably like) should also have suffered and gone extinct... only they didn't. Octopus, cuttlefish and squid did perfectly fine. Unless I'm missing something obvious, this argument doesn't seem to hold together. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.139.74.231 ( talk) 09:00, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
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Can someone tell me, if the genus Goliathoceras exist? I have this 2 pictures: File:Pu - Goliathoceras sp. - 1.jpg and File:Pu - Goliathoceras sp. - 2.jpg with the Unidentified Goliathoceras sp. in the Rotunda Museum, Scarborough, England. description. But neither here and neither on Google, I don't find any information about it. Meanwhile perhaps became a synonym of another genusname? DenesFeri ( talk) 11:34, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
There needs to be a non technical section with an explanation with regards ammonites for those with a general interest. 2A00:23C6:95B5:DD01:E48C:6363:5C69:52A ( talk) 09:22, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
Hey, Hemiauchenia, I noticed you recently removed a paragraph on the topic. I don't see how the focus was undue, as it was a single paragraph of a fairly long article, nor how it was "speculation", as it was backed up by a scholarly source. In any case, I can't find a source of similar quality that attempts to refute these claims; in fact, another scientific article acknowledges that they may be correct. An anonymous username, not my real name 19:08, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
This image lacks clarifying context for non experts to understand what they are looking at. The terms internal, lateral, external, etc are undefined. 2605:A601:A0A9:3300:15D6:4E3A:A0DF:2C ( talk) 04:26, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
For all you ammonite fans, on the Prehistoric Planet 2 documentary series, the "Oceans" episode (AppleTV+), they provide a lot of information about various species of these critters, from babies to adults. Such a good program. Thanks for your attention, Wordreader ( talk) 01:41, 21 July 2023 (UTC)