![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Link to Current Discussion Page
Note these guidelines referred to the main talk page, not this page, and are here only for historical completeness. Under ordinary circumstances all comments should be placed on Talk:Afro-Latin American
How can there be less blacks in Honduras than in Guatemala? It is a clearly false assertion. IMO the title is made up and needs changing. The black Latinos dop not regard themselves, nor does anyone else in LA regard them as Afros. I would like to change the name, but not sure what to, SqueakBox July 6, 2005 17:31 (UTC)
I have removed the false assertion that the majority of Honduran blacks are Garífuna, and removed the percentages of blacks in CA countries as they are not credible figures. I didn't know this article existed but now that I do I look forward to contributing, SqueakBox July 6, 2005 17:57 (UTC)
You removed the pecentages. Doesn't it make more sense to cite the sources of the percentages instead of removing themn altogether? There are sources available from government or academic agencies. They all have their problems - but so does any nations reporting of this statistic. Cacimar July 14, 2005
The first paragraphs seems to have a lot of irrelevant or unsourced information. "Many black Latin Americans feel insulted to be called Afro or African." This applies to most general ethnic or racial labels. Does each entry in wikipedia carry a similar disclaimer? Usually this feeling "insult" is attributed to relf-racism when it is applicable. "Afro" is an apparent popular term in current and historical cultures in Latin America by people addressing their blackness or africanness.
"In most Latin American contries, negro is reserved for people with very dark skin, while people with mix is called mulatto. The difference on the two is subjetive and full of cultural bias."
I'm not sure mentioning the difference without explaining it is worthwile. Mulato can be applied to dark and white skinned people. It's subjective, but at the same time extremely flexible. I also think this and other labels specifically challenge the idea that one drop rule was never applied in Latin America. The wide variety of ethnic labels contradict that. Including the concept of La Raza Cosmica. The phrase itself was never applied, but the concept of Black ancestry changign what you were was very solid. There is a wide range of labes between "puro hispano" and "negro."
"Any statistics on the number of Afro-Latin American has no meaning unless the criteria are full explained."
This should remain a standard of the article as opposed to a part of the topic content. Statistics on *anything* have no meaning unless the criteria are explained. And again, I wonder, if wikipedia has the standard of explaining the methodology of all statistics mentioned. That can be an article in itself for each number. While it could legitimately be a full section (Determining population/Population History) this doesn't make statistics "meaningless". This statement appears to be over-general and biased. Cacimar 19:16, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
I removed the percventages because some of them didn't seem credible. Wikipedia has a reputaytion as not being a reliable source of information (one of the main criticisms) so it is best to be conservative and only include material we are sure about, SqueakBox 20:33, July 14, 2005 (UTC)
I agree with removing uncited percentages. But the statement against including any percentages and labeling them generally as meaningless seem off the article topic. Especially when the option exists to require sources when percentages are added. There are several studies etc that are more qualified than you or I after all. I'll look at one this evening that "maps" the population. Cacimar 20:44, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
SqueakBox: Is there a reason why Afro-Mexican should not be its own article? It would add readibility to the Afro-Latin article (which got quite large) plus it has more information that any other Afro-Latin group (more than Cuban). -- Vizcarra 8 July 2005 20:30 (UTC)
It is easier to put the one article on Vfd rather than putting the Mexican article on Vfd as well. Also this article is not too long, and if we have to have an article on black latinos I would rather it was all in one place for ease of reading and ease of editing. I am not convinced black latinos should have their own article at all let alone 2 articles. And there are very few black Mexicans, vastly more black Brazilians and they don't get their own article, SqueakBox July 8, 2005 20:47 (UTC)
No this Vfd is not for personal reasons. Why would anyone think it is. Stop seeing the Vfd as negative, and if you really want to keep the article make it better. I know a lot about black people in Central America, not much outside of this region, and it was the CA section that I immediately spotted as being riddled with inaccuracies. Perhaps the Mexican section isn't, and perhaps it is the only section that isn't. If this article is to survive it rerally needs the Mexican section to be a part of it. Everyone has signed all their posts today, SqueakBox July 9, 2005 00:55 (UTC)
I think each "Afro-Nationality" should have it's own entry. But they can also grow towards that as the article grows. I don't see why this topic can't stand and as nationalities get fleshed out, link to those independant articles and continue to flesh out the others until they can stand on their own. Cacimar July 14, 2005
I think the article must stress the diferent conception on black between latin america and US, since probably most of the reader will be from there. Latin america would be considered 80% black or something like that if we used the "one drop theory" that seems to be the rule in the US. I wrote a kind of disclaimer about it, but i think it can be rewritten to become clearer. thanks. Nanahuatzin 07:04, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
This is an international encycloperdia and we must not asssume our readers are from anywhere. The obsessive self awareness about rascism and the one drop theory do not appear to apply here in atin America. A major part of my objection to this article is that it is totally US centred in both the name and the attitudes. Hence my perception of rascism within the article. Latinos are not obsessed with race in the way Anglo Saxons are, and thus the society is much less rascist. I wish that could be reflected in the article, and good to see Nanahuatzin has made a start, SqueakBox 14:57, July 10, 2005 (UTC)
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/a/af/afro-latin_american1.htm http://www.answers.com/topic/afro-latin-american
I read what the person above wrote. The only people who are Anglo-Saxon are the British descent, and to be quite accurate, that person would have to be from the colonial period. I guess that those who are in the U.S. from Britain from the colonial period are very few. And since this is an international encyclopedia, can we make certain that this is factual and perhaps have someone familiar with Afro-Latin Americans and academic writings about Afro-Latin Americans help to rewrite this? Chriscarlos
Wikipedia is aimed at anyone who can read English. Given the popularity of it as a second language this is a lot of people. We must not assume our readers are Anglo Saxon. Also do remember that an English person like me knows very little about the race issues in the States. For me the article comes across as having ben written by a black activist pushing a black consciousness POV. For me the idea that a black Honduran (etc) is somehow less Honduran than anyone else born and raised here is the rascist idea. The consensus appears (the Vfd isn't over yet) to be to keep the article, in which case I totally agree that we need to clean the article up. I also plan to have articles on White-Latin American and Indigenous-Latin American, SqueakBox 15:46, July 10, 2005 (UTC)
To make this article about the African influence in Latin America you would really need to start again as right now the article is clearly about black people (a not clearly defined term if we discount the one drop theory) in Latin America. What to do and how to do it are not easy questions to answer, SqueakBox 17:15, July 10, 2005 (UTC)
All I really know about is Central America. Though it would be interesting to research South America, SqueakBox 17:45, July 10, 2005 (UTC)
I have removed Vfd after being for five days. Results: 1 vote for deletion, 6 votes to keep the article. I still don't see how it the article fell in any of the categories for reasons for a Vfd. And according to the votes, I may not be alone in this one. I also remove NPOV, since the article has changed so much since the first NPOV. -- Vizcarra 18:43, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
As far as I'm concerned you not being an admin is irrelevant. A closed Vfd looks like this. If you know how to close the Vfd by all means do so, but make sure you do so properly (I haven't a clue), SqueakBox 22:24, July 12, 2005 (UTC)
No I would rather leave it as I don't know how to and I don't particularly fancy trying as I would probably mess it up. I have had to wait up to 2 weeks to see a Vfd finish and I have just had to cultivate patience, SqueakBox 22:35, July 12, 2005 (UTC)
Alright, I've closed the VFD debate. The result was keep. Sjakkalle (Check!) 10:29, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
I think we should change the name to something like Black Latin American before removing the NPOV tag, as associating black people with Africa when they don't do it themselves is very POV, SqueakBox 19:17, July 12, 2005 (UTC)
Well can you think of a third option? Afro Latin is not common usage, and many find it offensive as it makes them less Latino than everyone else. Hispanic is an American term, and we have no article for "brown" Latinos. Mostly black means negroid, etc. The name Afro Latin sounds like an American word, which would be fine dealing with a stateside subject but is not ok for the rest of the world, SqueakBox 21:21, July 12, 2005 (UTC)
Many Latin Americans do not like the term Latino either because it makes them feel less (native) American and implies being white (of Roman origin). Afro-Latino was a United States article until you merged it with the Afro-Latin American article which deals with those Latin Americans with African background. I don't see how the term "Afro-Latin American" has no lack of neutrality, in fact change it because "many" (could you cite a source to determine how "many") find it offensive would be a non-NPOV. "Black Latin American" does not imply African origin, but only color of skin. It could be that "mostly black means negroid" but it does not reflect the African origin (as opposed to Australoid black or East Indian dark-skinned). The NPOV tag was designed for an article's content, not an article's title and you haven't provided arguments to support the non-NPOV since the tag was re-introduced by you this morning. Perhaps explaining what are the outstanding issues would clarify the disagreement. -- Vizcarra 21:40, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
These people absolutely do not have an African background. Some of their ancestors from centuries back have African roots. I have no sources about the ofensiveness at the moment but the black people I speak to here describe it as stupid and offensive, which I can understand as I would be offended to be called an Austrian merely on the basis of long ago ancestry. The NPOV tag was used while the similarly offensive term Rastafarianism was used to describe the Rastafari movement. Can you provide a source that this term is actually used in all the countries mentioned in the article. We must not go out of our way to offend people, which we are doing here, nor must we use abstract American terminology to desctribe peoples outside America ass this is clearly not an American encyclopedia,
SqueakBox 21:50, July 12, 2005 (UTC)
To ask for "a source that this term is actually used in all the countries mentioned in the article" would be an enormous task, don't you think? I don't think anybody is going "out-of-their-way" to offend anyone. If you read the article with the objectivity that most people have you would think otherwise. This is not an American encyclopedia but English is not the language of any Latin American country (unless you would consider Puerto Rico a country, so the terms must have originated from outside Latin America. Again, can you provide any arguments to support your idea that the content of the article is non-NPOV? That's what the NPOV tag suggests per wikipedia policies. -- Vizcarra 21:56, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
The dispute over the title isn't a reason to change it. It's a reason to have an entry discussing the differences, just as African American does. There are over 20 nations involved with this title, so searching for a common agreement on the label isn't realistic. The disputes in this discussion are extremely similar to discussions over the African American label. The preferrred term for this entry is probably Afro Latino - although Afro Latin American allows the inclusion of Brazilians and Haitians (who are often part of "Afro Latino" gatherings, studies, etc, without having to say Afro-Berian-Americans or somethign as cryptic. The most accurate label is afrodescendientes (and the most appropriate for African American would be US Blacks or something more specific), but this is an English language portal. These are labels commonly accepted and used.
As far as "not having an African background" - they absolutely do. As the subject will eventually shows as it grows in wikipedia, it can be displayed that the African ancestry affects everything from skin tone to language to religion to dance to culinary habits, etc. Also, in many nations these are still cohesive communities that live within the same areas are a community. -- Cacimar 14 July 2005
I would say the difference between African American and Afro Latin is that there are a sizeable minority of Americans who identify themselves with the label whereas I argue there are not a similar group in Latin America. These people identify themselves as black but not Afro, which is why I would prefer to see the article called Black Latin Americans. It is only intellectuals who are identifying them as Afro, and that is not common usage. Common usage must dictate our name choice, SqueakBox 17:42, July 14, 2005 (UTC)
I don't think that's accurate. There are many historical and current organizations and groups in Latina America that use Afro. It is definitely common in Brazil. Afrodescendientes is the common Venezuela. Afro Colombian is definitely in use as is Afro Peruvian. Afro Cuban of course. (There Spanish and English equivelants) I'm AfroBoricua or Afro Puerto Rican. Afroantillano goes way back. If common usage dictates, you seem to be suggesting that there is a common usage of the nationality or ethnicity with negro or Black as a qualifier. I agree negro by itself is more common, but when talking about a specific nation, region or culture and those people involved with that "afro" comes into play cacimar 17:59, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
Since "common usage" was mentioned - Google is an indicator. Put the following terms in quotes and see how people are using the phrases in English and Spanish. This isn't a pefect method, but a good indicator. Afrolatino appears to be a shared high commonality. Black Latino is high due to articles discussing race in the US - there is more often than not a comma between Black, Latino discussing two separate groups. This is proven by the extreme drop in counts when you go to the singular use of Black Latino. Afro Latino is the clear common majority across cultures. Afro Latin American would remove the ethnicity baggage of the word Latino when appied to nations like Belize, Suriname, Brazil. Afrobrazilians are often found in the Latin or Latino category (think of the Latin Grammy) but other cultures aren't.
I don't really know how to add to this page, so here goes. In response to the above, I do think it needs to be clarified which countries are apart of Latin America. Many people only include Spanish speaking ones, and Brazil. I would include more, based on location, language, and culture. As far as Puerto Ricans go, please do note, that there are probably as many Puerto Ricans outside of Puerto Rico as there are living on the island. So any mitochondrial DNA testing will not be representative of all Puerto Ricans. For example, if you were to test the mitochondrial DNA of Belizans, it would vary from year to year. Belize is a majority Black country, but it is said that the numbers of Belizans that immigrate to the U.S. every year is so high, and that the numbers of Mexicans, and Central Americans migrating to that country are also so high that the demographics change rather quickly. The majority of Puerto Ricans in the U.S. have obvious African features, or are even Black, although many of which may or may not identify as black. The blacker a Puerto Rican is, the more likely they will identify as mixed, especially when living in the U.S. This is not based on DNA, but experience. Puerto Rico did not have a mixed category on the census until about the 1980's, I believe. Not only that, the number of Blacks in Puerto Rico, have dropped dramaticaly in a relatively small period of time.
Afro Latin American 4,410 (English) Afro Latin Americans 794(English) Afrolatinoamericano 127 (Spanish) Afrolatinoamericanos 302(Spanish)
Black Latin American 414 (English) Black Latin Americans 104 (English) Latinoamericanos Negros 49 (Spanish) Latinoamericano Negro 17 (Spanish)
Afro Latino 54,500 (English) Afro Latinos 4,790 (English) Afrolatinos 11,600 (Spanish) Afrolatinos 18,400 (Spanish)
Black Latino 139,000 (english) Black Latinos 869 (English) Latinos Negros 5,520 (Spanish) Latino Negro 487 (Spanish) Cacimar 18:32, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
I have added this to the section
According to the most recent census taken in Puerto Rico 8% are black and 10.9% are mixed and other. According to the most recent mitochondrial DNA testing, around 27% of all Puerto Ricans have at least one African female in their family tree. *See sources below
Sources:
As you can see from the sources, these numbers are backed up by both the most recent Official Census as well as DNA studies.
Wikipedia should not be used to push personal agendas or to promote race based myths. As long as we all try to stick to the facts as we have them, everyone wins. -- 4.250.63.178 16:24, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Your edit looks great. Latest comments go to the bottom as you first did it, SqueakBox 16:40, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
It seems like whoever originally wrote this article really had an axe to grind, and they have let their own personal prejudices mar the accuracy of this article. I would even go as far as to say some of it is bordering on racism, and some of it seems to stretch into the realms of fiction. I do not think there is any question about the lack of neutrality regarding this article, and in my opinion an article such as this, which is pushing such a blatently political agenda with turns of phrase such as
"White Europeans who are consciously and subconsciously afraid of Black unity. These people are aware that many Blacks worldwide are uniting or at least attempting to unite, and they are doing their very best to stop it."
They might as well have put the phone number for the Black Panthers' recruiting office in there as well. Such a biased and politicised piece of what could only be called propaganda does not deserve a place on a respected bank of knowledge such as Wikipedia. It brings down the credibility of the organisation having an article such as this which obviously is not based soley around factual documentation.
This article was riddled with original research, unencyclopedic material and rascism such as the bizarre section Negro actually referring to the Spanish word for the colour black not an English word for black people, SqueakBox 17:00, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
I've attempted to put a bit of order on this talk page by archiving older issues which seem to have fallen out of interest (based on date), and adding a guidelines section above which may help to orient users who are not familiar with the accepted procedure in using talk pages.
Hopefully other's will find my efforts useful -- | 15:02, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Funny how none of those righteous warriors determined to keep this article can be bothered to vandalism patrol it, SqueakBox 15:42, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
If you don't support this page existing, why make such major revisions? It puzzles me why you would go and take out actual substantial information, such as Bobby Vaughn's link. He lived with the Afro-Mexicans in Costa Chica and has written academic articles and now a book and (I think he) consulted on Chicago's Mexican Fine Art Center Museum's The African Presence in Mexico exhibit. And I know if I put the link back, that you will delete it again. I guess an expert opinion is not valid enough to leave in this page, which is supposed to be helpful to those doing research and looking for information on this topic. If there is a problem with him having a link to his book, then perhaps someone could ask if he could place that on his Notre Dame website so that his page can be used.
I really don't get why I should care about this entry when it seems that you don't care, as you want to delete this whole entry and are going about removing large portions of it in very non-collaborative, unilateral manner. Yes, the views that someone added were ridiculous, but you can remove the parts that are foolish and put something that makes sense. Instead you remove large parts of the page, without asking what others might think, and without seeing how that impacts the entry itself.
I am sorry, but how can what you do be positive and then you criticize others for not stopping vandalism? Isn't deleting whole sections of this page just like vandalism? How about if I wrote about my love for Susana Baca's music and deleted any mention of Peru in this entry other than that? Would that be fair?
Think about what and how you are doing things. I will not invest a large part of my time trying to write any portion of this or even asking an expert to contribute unless people such as yourself understand that the purpose of Wikipedia is not about individual efforts, but group or collaborative efforts. Part of what you should see as being progress is having an entry that, beyond reflecting your views, is accurate, is factual and is accessible to those from Latin America and is understood by those from the United States, Canada, and the United Kingdom, and can be used as an encyclopedia entry. As the old newspaper movies always said about journalism: Just the facts m'am. What you or I may think on a personal level is unimportant. Chriscarlos
The first line of this piece is INCORRECT. The reason why it is incorrect is simple. The terms Latin American and Latino are not the same in usage. Latin American refers to a specific geographic area over MANY NATIONS AND REGIONS, while Latino refers to ONE NATION AND SEVERAL REGIONS (as the U.S. spans North America and Asia, and has Puerto Rico and various other territories).
You have made some good points, Jaxhere, all of which I am in agreement. Chriscarlos, instead of declaring who you think may or may not be entitled to edit the article you should do so yourself as I for one respect your right to edit the asrticl;e. Please reciprocate and respect my right too, SqueakBox 16:47, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
The term Latino is a term that ONLY REFERS TO THOSE WHO RESIDE IN THE UNITED STATES and doesn't refer to those from Latin America. In Latin American countries the term HISPANIC and LATINO are foreign, as each person feels a connection to their nationality and not to an ethnicity, as ethnicity in a Latin American country may be defined by the various populations and cultural groups (Criollo or European, Mestizo, Indigenous, Asian/Chinese/Japanese, African descent, mulatto or Afro-Meztizo). THUS, LATINO IS NOT A TERM USED IN LATIN AMERICA TO REFER TO LATIN AMERICANS. It is however, used in the United States to refer to those of LATIN AMERICAN ORIGIN both by the public/government sector, academics, political activists, and the various people of Latin American descent, given the emphasis toward broad pan-ethnic or pan-Latin American identity in the United States. [Also, it is a term that is mainly used by the 2nd generation Latin Americans of various countries to refer to themselves. See José Cuello, or the 2nd to last link below.] Here are some websites about the usage of the terms or reviews of the terms Hispanic and Latino. From these references, one can CLEARLY see there is a GEOGRAPHICAL DISTINCTION BETWEEN LATINO AND LATIN AMERICAN, as Latinos reside in ONE COUNTRY, and Latin Americans reside in VARIOUS COUNTRIES. If you ask a professor of Latin American Studies or Latino/Chicano Studies, they will tell you how to best use these terms.
http://www.hsp.org/default.aspx?id=355
http://www.pbs.org/americanfamily/latino3.html
The two links are from the American Heritage® Book of English Usage, pages 198 and 199: http://www.bartleby.com/64/pages/page198.html, http://www.bartleby.com/64/pages/page199.html.
Pennsylvania State University Commission on Race/Ethnic Diversity Terminology Guidelines (search for Latino or Hispanic): http://www.equity.psu.edu/cored/resources/term/term.html
Latinos and Hispanics: A Primer on Terminology: http://www.dptv.org/archive/ourfamilies/basic.shtml
Martha Godinez of the University of Colorado reviews Hispanic & Latino terms: http://www.colorado.edu/Sociology/gimenez/work/heresies.html
Also, if someone wants to READ a chapter about PAN-ETHNICITY, try this one: Not Just Black and White: Historical and Contemporary Perspectives on Immigration, Race, and Ethnicity in the United States. Here is the link to the table of contents: http://www.russellsage.org/publications/books/0-87154-259-5/toc_pdf When it opens, skip to the 2nd page and look at Pan-Ethnicity, Part III or Chapter 8. An academic library will have it, so you can copy that chapter and use it for different Wiki entries, EVEN THIS ONE. And imagine, a Wiki entry with an academic reference. Have we died and gone to heaven?
Can someone tell me why have an article titled Afro-Latin American if people use a term like Afro-Latino. The terms Latino and Hispanic are not used in Latin America, and an Afro-Latin American would find their usage foreign, if not confusing. (Perhaps the term Afro-Latin American would be a bit foreign to a Latin American of African or part African lineage.) Chriscarlos
Can someone enlighten me why Bobby Vaughn's website was edited out? Bobby Vaughn is an academic who has lived in the Costa Chica part of Mexico, along the Pacific Ocean, with Afro-Mexicans. I guess his academic writing about this topic isn't particularly related to this topic? Perhaps having an expert who is an academic, and who writes on this subject isn't something a supposed encyclopedia deserves. But if someone wants to go at the page and delete anything that adds to the issue in substance, that's okay. This page seems to be a waste of time. If you write crap on a Wikipedia page about insects or birds, that gets edited to the past form. When people take out useful information here, in this entry, like Bobby Vaughn's website, it just stays off. Chriscarlos
The page today looks like someone went at it with a hacksaw and added their own opinions, with no references. While I love to write and have people read my writing, this is supposed to be an "encyclopedia" so I am told.
If anyone is an administrator, please place some control over what stays and what goes. Or assign someone to write something based on books, journals, opinion pieces, and is very thorough and exhaustive.
Let's be honest. Those who are mixed with African and Spanish may not consider themselves to be African or even if they know their family to be mulatto, they may chose to identify as mestizo. Census self-identification is unreliable. Has anyone read academic literature that can be used as source material for a paragraph or two in this entry? I dislike reading articles that are unsourced and unreliable.
IMO the article should be deleted but a few US based politically correct editors caused its afd to fail, SqueakBox 15:59, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Some of the info in this article is distinctly not NPOV (e.g., " Even though they are treated wrongly they overcome prejudice") and I wonder about some of the other statements, for example
and
apart from the fact that racial purity is a fiction, how can one be certain (given the way slaves were treated, given the fact that few people know exactly who their ancestors were) that most of these people have no non-African ancestry in the time they have been in Latin America? Guettarda 23:36, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
US CENSUS DATA IN THE US AND IN PUERTO RICO ARE NOT ACCURATE GIVEN THE DATA IS BASED ON INDIVIDUAL CENSUS EMPLOYEE'S VIEWS OF WHO IS WHITE OR BLACK OR ON INDIVIDUALS' VIEWS OF THEIR OWN RACIAL IDENTITY. Chriscarlos 02:06, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
According to a 2001 census between 60 and 70 percent of Cubans characterise themselves as Black, while close to 15 percent consider themselves to be mulato.. Many Cubans still locate their origins in specific African ethnic groups or regions, particularly Yoruba and Congo, but also Arará, Carabalí, Mandingo, Fula and others. In contrast, between 85-95 percent of Cuban-Americans, classify themselves as white.
-- | 15:28, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Comments about Haitian unimportance, and discrimination removed because they are irrelevant to this article. -- | 15:31, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Note, although most of the "facts" are interesting and relevant, they need to be substianted, or they face elimination due to being considered as opinion. The points which I have not questioned, I would leave,even though they, too, would benefit from some verification
-- | 15:38, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Following removed from page for lack of sources:
If anyone can cite sources for these, please do so and put back in the Mexico section. JAXHERE | Talk 01:16, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
points needing attention numbers refer to paragraph number in section:
-- | 16:14, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
ANYTHING WITHOUT A SOURCE SHOULD BE ELIMINATED. Also, can someone read J. Duany's chapter in "Neither Enemies nor Friends" Essentially he claims that those Puerto Ricans socialized in the U.S. claim themselves as something other than Black or White in the Census. Also, Censuses are not factually accurate. "Identify" does not necessarily mean that those people are. If I was mulatto but said I was white, I would be "identifying" as white. Also, in the case of Census enumerators, those Puerto Rican Census enumerators may have a different view of race distinction than those U.S. Census enumerators. In the U.S., we have a "one-drop" approach to race that is essentially based on supposed racial purity. In other places, racial purity is not regarded as a priority. Chriscarlos 02:23, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
points needing attention numbers refer to paragraph number in section:
-- | 16:14, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
ANYTHING WITHOUT A SOURCE SHOULD BE ELIMINATED. Also, can someone read J. Duany's chapter in "Neither Enemies nor Friends" Essentially he claims that those Puerto Ricans socialized in the U.S. claim themselves as something other than Black or White in the Census. Also, Censuses are not factually accurate. "Identify" does not necessarily mean that those people are. If I was mulatto but said I was white, I would be "identifying" as white. Also, in the case of Census enumerators, those Puerto Rican Census enumerators may have a different view of race distinction than those U.S. Census enumerators. In the U.S., we have a "one-drop" approach to race that is essentially based on supposed racial purity. In other places, racial purity is not regarded as a priority. Chriscarlos 02:23, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
The whole article is obsessed with race. IMO a connection between race and Afro-Latin Americans needs to be provided or all this race info should be either removed or put into a demographicsd section, SqueakBox 15:55, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
What on earth are you talking about? You dont have to get a qualification to get to know Latin America. Where does anyone suggets the place is a utopia. What exactly are you talking about with your race comments, they make no sense at all to me, SqueakBox 01:39, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Sorry but I do have a role on this page. I strongly advise you to stop being aggressive. This is the encyclopedia anyone can edit, not anyone you descide. Just back off with your aggressive attitude. I will continue to edit this article for the betterment of the encyclopedia and if you wish to continue editing this article you will have to accept this as I am not the slightest bit interested in your opinion that I shouldn't have a role in this article, nor do I believe anyone else will be. What I do think is that we must keep on topic and remove anything from the article that goes off topic, hence my edits. You are, of course, free to edit yourself but you are not free to agressively attack me or assert it is you, with less than 100 edits to the project, who decides who does and does not plays a role in this article. Finally let me assure you that as a white person living with black people in a relatively poor barrio in a poorer Latin American country that I do have personal experience of race in Latin America. What experience do you have? SqueakBox 15:21, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Please sign and date your entries, and try to take care to format your comments so that others can follow the flow of the conversation or debate. (If you don't know how to sign and date, you use four tildes in a row ~~~~).
I know this topic seems to generate a lot of emotion for some contributors, however, if you are not careful to present your ideas and thoughts in a way which makes it easy for other's to follow them they may simply be lost in the flurry of activity which this discussion page carries.
Note, that it is especially important to sign and date a comment which you insert in the middle of an existing posting because some readers who have been following the exchange might tend to just jump to the end to see the latest additions instead of reading a section completely from beginning to end each time they look at this page.
You might find it worthwhile to look at Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages and Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines to understand more about the effective use of these talk pages. -- | 15:33, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I have signed all my edits, as always. Why is my name on this section? Please remove my name from this section or I will do so myself. Thankyou, SqueakBox 15:37, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I have removed my name as none of the comments had the slightest relevance to me and were taken as a personal attack. Its generally a bad idea to put the names of editors in section titles. Thanks, SqueakBox 15:41, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Chriscarlos 01:47, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
What is your point? Your link has been restored though you appear not to have noticed and the article is now in much better shape than a fortnight back. Be bold is wikipedia policy, and having been so I have improved yet another article. And of course citing academic and other sources is essential. Nor do I think skin colour makes no difference here in latin America but it clearly has far less meaning than in the race obsessed United States. Can we please keep on topic, general rants arent going to help improve the article, SqueakBox 02:27, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
After doing a bit of work on this article, I'm inclined to cut the section on the United States since it really isn't a part of Latin America, which is the focus of this article. Can anyone give me any reasons why it should stay? -- | 15:50, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I've added sections for several countries which have not been included. I hope some people can provide some information (sourced) about the Afro-Latino elements in these countries. -- | 15:53, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
An unregistered user added some info without a source, but it seems that there was an intent to have one. I sent this message to the IP's talk page, but I don't know if it will ever be seen, so I've copied it here
Do you have a reputable source to add to this change? If so, please use the <ref> </ref> tags instead of {{ref}} and place your reference notes between the beginning and ending of these tags, replacing the {{fact}} template which I've inserted
If anyone can fix this, please do so. -- | 13:50, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I decided to add this so that people who are ADDING their POINTS OF VIEW can explain why there are no references to their obvious POINTS OF VIEW. A person's POINTS OF VIEW are not FACT but can be referenced if there is a BOOK, ARTICLE, or NEWSPAPER ARTICLE which has the same POINT OF VIEW. Chriscarlos 02:06, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
I decided to add this so that people who are just placing information from various sources (some of which may or may not be academic, since it is not referenced, see "Why No References?") can explain why they are not using or perhaps referencing the use of academic sources. I love to see an article or section expand, but I dislike and discourage placing information with no credibility or references. Chriscarlos 02:07, 21 November 2006 (UTC)