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This is a collection of inactive talk topics for the article: Vegetarianism of Adolph Hitler.
I moved the definition from the 2nd paragraph to the end of the article. It's not very well-placed right now, either, but I felt it was placed way too early in the article, and the reason for the definition wasn't explained, giving it a weird, jarring, disembodied feel. Babajobu 23:06, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia's definition Vegetarianism it is the practice of not eating meat, poultry, fish or their by-products, with or without the use of dairy products or eggs [2]. The exclusion also extends to products derived from animal carcasses, such as lard, tallow, gelatin, rennet and cochineal. Some who follow the diet also choose to refrain from wearing products that involve the death of animals, such as leather, silk, feather, and fur. By definition Hitler was not a vegetarian. It may be prudent to specify this article a Pescetarianism, or Semi-Vegetarianism of Adolf Hitler. Very interesting article despite the activism from both sides.
Many people think of vegetarianism in terms of lifestlye and not merely diet. I'd like to see something in the intro paragraph like "Hitler's vegetarianism was purely dietary in nature and did not extend to such lifestyle issues as avoidance of animal based clothing", or words to that effect. Bdrasin 00:06, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm very glad someone finally created an article with this topic. In the past, whenever Hitler's eating habits got brought up in any other article, militant vegetarians stuck up on Godwin's Law would immediately start an edit war, despite the fact that not a single source I've read on Hitler (including two entire book articles I personally wrote for Wiki) disputes it. -- L. 18:51, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia's definition Vegetarianism it is the practice of not eating meat, poultry, fish or their by-products, with or without the use of dairy products or eggs [2]. The exclusion also extends to products derived from animal carcasses, such as lard, tallow, gelatin, rennet and cochineal. Some who follow the diet also choose to refrain from wearing products that involve the death of animals, such as leather, silk, feather, and fur. By definition Hitler was not a vegetarian. It may be prudent to specify this article a Pescetarianism, or Semi-Vegetarianism of Adolf Hitler. Very interesting article despite the activism from both sides.
The AH article is already too long and has many sub-articles. Wyss 02:50, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
Agree with Wyss. This is a perfectly good spinn off article, with lots of interesting facts and background that is way to much to merge with the already huge Hitler article. I'm tempted to just remove the merge template right away. There's simply no way this can be merged in there. Shanes 02:59, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
Readers are urged to ponder our all-too-human tendancy to resist the notion that someone who could have been responsible for something so monstrous and horrifying as the Holocaust could simultaneously do sensible stuff like avoid tobacco, meat and for the most part, alcohol. Wyss 03:59, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
The only problem with the quote discussing alleged fabrication of Hitler's vegetarianism is that will really require us to add a quote from one of the biographies asserting Hitler's staunch vegetarianism and ideological committment to a meat-free diet. Babajobu 12:35, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
The Payne quote is too long and IMO throws off the balance of the article. More worrisome, he's not one of the widely cited AH biographers (except, mostly, by vegetarian authors and websites). Wyss 21:47, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm having a hard time buying the part that says the Gestapo cracked down on vegetarian publications. Himmler, head of the SS, was a proselytizing vegetarian and tried to institute of a vegetarian diet among high-ranking members of the SS. It seems bizarre that the Gestapo, which I think by 1935 had essentially merged with the SS and thus been under Himmler's command, would have been at the same time trying to stamp out vegetarianism. Babajobu 16:28, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
One sentence says Lucas "worked as a cook at a Hamburg hotel during the late 1930s", but a few sentence later the acrticle states "by the late 1930s Lucas was in London" and uses that to justify what appears to be pure original research claiming that Lucas likely served Hitler meat in the early, rather than late, 1930s. Can this please be reconciled? Jayjg (talk) 19:53, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
There's no contradiction. Dione Lucas worked in a Hamburg hotel during the early 1930s and by the late 1930s was in London where she'd opened a French-style cooking school (a London version of Le Cordon Bleu, which wasn't actually a part of the famous French school in Paris until the 1990s). There's no original research, given the chronology, the anecdote must be from the early 1930s. Wyss 21:29, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
Right now we start the article with:
I believe it's wrong to use the word "evidence" here. There simply can't be conflicting evidence, since there never can be any evidence for anybody being a vegetarian. What are the evidence for that, say, Mahatma Gandhi never ate meat? It's trying to prove a negative. Historians saying something, isn't an evidence for anything. And it's of course not meant to be evidence either, we just quote them and let the reader decide. So I believe it's wrong to use the word here. I'd rather we rewrote that sentence and instead used another word. I must say I myself much prefered the original opening of "The vegetarianism of Adolf Hitler is accepted by...", but if "accepted" is too POV, then we could find something else. Is changing "accepted" for "cited", "stated" or "referenced" maybe acceptable? Or what about this:
Is that ok? Then we avoid the "most historians" statement, too, which strictly isn't true (most historians write about other subjects than Hitler, but maybe that's a given). Shanes 21:53, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
Since you don't have a problem with this statement (nor the use of weak anecdotes) in the Adolph Hitler article, Contrary to popular legend, there is some evidence Hitler did not abstain entirely from alcohol. During post war interrogation in the USSR his valet Heinz Linge indicated Hitler drank champagne now and then with Eva Braun, I will merely echo those sentiments in the lead. -- Viriditas | Talk 05:15, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
Stop the sarcasm please. Wyss 05:28, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
Most biographers do affirm AH was a vegetarian throughout most of the 1930s and on to his suicide. Rynn Berry has apparently waged a rather aggressive media campaign in the US recently, attempting to portray Hitler as a "meat eating pork" (as one of my French friends is wont to say :). The historical record is rather clear, AH ate little or no meat during the last 10 or 12 years of his life. The article has cites to support that. Maybe he did cheat now and then (though I wouldn't be surprised either way and I don't care)... most vegetarians slip, if rarely, big deal (I can cite that btw). In truth the lengthy Robert Payne quote is the exact same one used by Berry and is starkly anecdotal. Moreover, Payne isn't cited by much of anyone except vegetarian authors and websites (forget the holocaust denier org - gross). Take away Payne and there's not much left... Bee Wilson lengthily outlines his veggie regime, Lucas cooked the pigeon for him before he went vegetarian and so on. AH was a vile human being, but a frighteningly talented and charismatic one too. I find it creepy to spend so much time on the topic but one way or another I've come to know something about that person and am uncomfortable letting these "cartoon characatures of evil" slip by. How can people recognize the next charismatic, genocidal sociopath who comes along if we don't steadfastly describe this so widely documented person as he was? Wyss 06:19, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
Another thought about Payne and his remark, He drank beer and diluted wine frequently, that's a bit of a trap. How often did AH drink beer after he was chancellor? From what I've read, maybe a little... but not regularly if at all. I've heard the diluted wine story through a couple of other credible sources, though (there isn't much to diluted wine btw) and after the war Linge told the sovs there was champagne now and then with Braun. My point being that Payne's quote can easily be taken out of context and made out to be more than it is, which I think Berry has done. Wyss 06:52, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
Given some comments made elsewhere, the greenhouse photo was neither taken nor used for propaganda purposes. It's a still from personal 16mm colour home movie footage taken by Eva Braun (who had a lifelong interest in photography) and didn't turn up publicly until after the war (indeed, it would have been bad propaganda for them to publish pics of AH's private greenhouse when most Germans had to put up with severe food rationing). Wyss 22:53, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
It was built to accomodate his diet. Moreover it is from personal movie footage shot by Eva Braun, never used for propaganda purposes. Calling it propaganda in terms of provenance or its use in this article is mistaken. Wyss 14:51, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
Looks like this book is a good resource, if anyone has access to it: Animals In The Third Reich: Pets, Scapegoats, and the Holocaust, by Boria Sax Continuum International Publishing Group Inc., (370 Lexington Ave., New York, NY 10017), 2000. 206 pages, paperback. $19.95. Supposedly it's pretty NPOV. Babajobu 00:03, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
Wyss, please don't revert all the changes I made just because of the Robert Payne quote in the intro. If you feel he's not a reputable source, by all means remove that quote and return it to the myth section (though if he's quoted in one section, he should be quotable in any), but I feel the other changes to the intro need to stay, because most of the sources quoted do in fact say that he continued to eat meat, just not very often, which means he wasn't a vegetarian. Also, I'd like to change the title, if no one minds, as the current one begs the question. Something like "Adolf Hitler and vegetarianism" would be more accurate, or "Was Hitler a vegetarian?" SlimVirgin (talk) 07:37, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
This article was based on a blatantly PoV dispute section in the List of vegetarians article. I've discussed some of these sources. Let's discuss some more.
Moved this to historical support section.
I have removed this from the article until we have some direct quotes from these authors. Wyss 15:37, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
I've read Toland twice, I think. I'm not sure if I remember the liver dumplings remark or not. I do remember coming away from the text with an impression that Hitler was a vegetarian who may have "cheated" now and then (like lots of vegetarians do- not to morally equate him with them, he was a genocidal sociopath and a generally nasty and creepy person). Sadly, I don't have my copy of Toland here and can't get to it. Let's see the excerpt before we risk taking something out of context in the article. Wyss 15:43, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
Removed until we have a quote. Speer was adroit with words (which helped him avoid being hanged after the war) and he more than perhaps anyone must be carefully taken in full context. Wyss 15:46, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
Citing a shopping list of red meat in the small intro section of the article is blatant PoV. We have Junge (his favourite secretary, who knew him well) and Wilson (a food writer) saying flatly he didn't eat meat. Both, btw, are women who have made it clear they have no fondness for him. Never mind all the biographers, whose quotes we can eventually get. Wyss 16:11, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
Regarding the use of the word proclaimed in the intro, although it sounds weasely and PoV to my sensitive ears, he did proclaim it, loudly and in all directions, publicly and especially in private, so I think it's ok to leave it. By the way, he harangued people at mealtime over this. Lots of accounts mention it. He endlessly teased and baited Eva over her wearing of make up ("animal fat... sewer grease!"). Can one imagine him doing this with a sausage or a liver dumpling on his plate? Only to ponder. Wyss 17:10, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
There's a conflict between the Payne quote, which says AH had no fondness for any meat but sausages, and Lucas, who says her pigeon dish was a favourite of his. I tend to trust Lucas more and suspect he did order squab many times before he turned vegetarian. Anyway why is Payne only cited on vegetarian sites, while other Hitler biographers are cited under multiple aspects of AH? Could it be Payne uniquely fits an aggressive, hard core, embarassed-by-Hitler-for-whatever-reason promotional agenda for vegetarianism (publicly led by Mr Berry) that other Hitler biographers aren't up to? Wyss 17:22, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
The New York Times article and Payne also disagree: NYT says AH didn't drink, Payne says he drank beer and diluted wine. The truth is somewhere in the middle btw, AH is known to have drunk diluted wine. Wyss 18:16, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
It's definitely encylopedic, and there's clearly a large team of editors working on it. A great advert for Wikipedia :) Adambisset 02:25, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
I think the paragraphs on this issue are totally irrelevant. Even today most vegetarians will take pills with gelatin capsules, or B12 vitamins derived from slaughterhouse byproducts, and it would be even rarer to meet one who was unwilling to take, say, insulin injections because they are derived from hog pancreas. They still consider themselves vegetarian because they see vegetarianism as an issue of the food you eat. This was universal among vegetarians in the 1930s, when veggie standards were less rigorous. I don't see how it can be seen as evidence of the "mythical" nature of Hitler's vegetarianism. Babajobu 11:47, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Viriditas added that. I'm ok with it because it's true, although I did smirk when I saw it: Truth be told, some vegetarian evangelists (like Rynn Berry) spit blood at the notion AH ever came close to being veg (how could such a monster ever be produced by such a wonderful diet? etc- er, btw veg is wonderful for many people), so as a hedge, they throw in accounts of all the animal byproducts that entered his body by means other than eating. I'd also be ok if someone else removed it, but I won't touch it with a ten foot bean stalk myself. Wyss 12:05, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
My understanding is that, though, Hitler attempted vegetarianism in 1911, and then began again in 1931, he didn't actually begin describing himself as a vegetarian until 1937. As of now, the article states that he began doing this in 1931. Babajobu 11:38, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
I also find it hard to believe that Hitler ever described himself as "ovo-lacto vegtarian". The word strikes me as very anachronistic in this context. Certainly in "Hitler's Table Talk" he only ever describes himself as "vegetarian". Babajobu 11:49, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
The article doesn't put it in quotes. AH was ovo-lacto, he definitely consumed eggs and dairy. Wyss 11:58, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
In general, "self-described" or "self-proclaimed" is code for "fraud," and is PoV here. On the other hand, all vegetarians are self-proclaimed so it's a dilemma for me. Wyss 12:14, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
I don't have any problem at all with self-described, so long as they actually used that term to describe themself. I'm going to make a change to the article. Babajobu 12:34, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
These accounts contradict each other. Payne (who is not regarded as a leading Hitler biographer) says AH stuck to sausages (never mind the inaccurately broad and misleading reference to beer), but Lucas says he ordered squab lots of times and the NYT article mentions a slice of ham. Lucas can be accounted for by the chronology- I've no doubt she's accurate and AH ate pigeon during the early 30s before he decided to be vegetarian. The NYT article totally contradicts Payne, saying AH was a vegetarian, then throws in the bit about relishing the ham but wait... Payne says AH was fond of no meat except sausages. Newspaper accounts can be forgiven, journalists are known to be sloppy but Payne contradicts every other cite in this article (including the entry in Goebbels' own diary) and what does that tell us about both him and Rynn Berry? Why do we give so much space to such a lonely, spurious quote? Wyss 12:14, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Payne's account conflicts with every other cite in the article. Wyss 12:48, 27 September 2005 (UTC)