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Says 1 american dead (Bostonian), is he also counted in the Israeli dead? Also still has the number of UN dead incorrect. I make it 4 killed by IDF + 1 civilian staff killed by IDF. There were reports of 6 though. 82.29.227.171 23:04, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
hezbollah and amal are lebanon citizens,right? and they are also support lebanon against israeli invasion so why should hezbollah and amal casualties be separated from lebanese casualties?
—–The answer to this question is that members of Hezbollah and AMAL, while they may be citizens of Lebanon, cannot be classified as civilians because they are combatants and do not deserve the same classification or protection as non-combatant citizens.
Members of Hezbollah and AMAL are also terrorists and target innocent, non-combatant citizens of Israel. However, the IDF targets only combatant targets, that is, Hezbollah strongholds, which have been conveniently and cowardly located within civilian areas in an attempt by Hezbollah to secure some measure of immunity from attack. -- Iceberg007 21:37, 7 August 2006 (UTC)Iceberg007
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1154525810863&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
We should add this. Flayer 15:52, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
""Israel Defense Forces (IDF) in Lebanon between July 12 and July 27, 2006, as well as the July 30 attack in Qana.. cases documented here reveal a systematic failure by the IDF to distinguish between combatants and civilians... Human Rights Watch found no cases in which Hezbollah deliberately used civilians as shields to protect them from retaliatory IDF attack. Hezbollah occasionally did store weapons in or near civilian homes and fighters placed rocket launchers within populated areas or near U.N. observers, which are serious violations of the laws of war because they violate the duty to take all feasible precautions to avoid civilian casualties. However, those cases do not justify the IDF’s extensive use of indiscriminate force which has cost so many civilian lives. In none of the cases of civilian deaths documented in this report is there evidence to suggest that Hezbollah forces or weapons were in or near the area that the IDF targeted during or just prior to the attack."
Technically, any combatant in civilian clothing can, under the Geneva conventions be shot as a spy...but thats a different story. 12.158.14.66 10:50, 7 August 2006 (UTC) Proteus
We can either request protection for the page, or request arbitration. The article is so POV! Can you discuss about what is the better method, protection or arbitration? Eshcorp 18:26, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Actually that is a false dilemma as your suggestions are not the only two options. It is kinda normal for this kind of craziness on such an article as this one. However, I might actually support someone protecting this article to stop this edit war.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 18:30, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
The page is not POV at all. Thanks to the tireless work of a few dedicated editors, and the welcomed efforts of more casual editors, the page is pretty damn neutral. It's especially apparent when you have headers like "This page is so anti Israeli!" and right underneath it "this article is pro Israeli!" both sides are claiming it's POV one way 'and the other. Yes, people keep adding POV crap, but it gets removed pretty quickly. The revert wars are not between anons and established editors, its established editors duking it out, so protection won't help. That, and a lot of good edits have been made by anon I.Ps. We need to keep wikipedia as open as possible. Until the page is coming under heavy fire, it shouldn't be protected. -- Iorek85 22:57, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Hey, look at this: [1]. Is it it OK just copy an article like he did? I don't think so. Flayer 19:44, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Well spotted, just delete then, copyviolation. 82.29.227.171 19:49, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
The editor's previous wording on both his and my talk pages seems to indicate that he was consciously trying to avoid detection for a copyvio which in of itself indicates he knew it was against policy. We may want to think of writing up a AN/I report.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 19:57, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
The plant has not been hit to date. Haifa is home to many strategically valuable facilities such as shipyards and oil refineries, and their targeting by Hezbollah is seen as an escalation.
I find this to be a bizarre passage, and can only be taken to be true from a very specific point of view. It needs to be deleted or severely altered.
By the 17th Israel had already destroyed the following:
Israeli navy gunships bombarded an electric power station on the coast at Jiyeh, about 25km south of Beirut. Attack on Beirut's Rafic Hariri International Airport. Two runways damaged. Attacked the al-Manar television station. A broadcast tower was destroyed and three people were injured, but the station continued its broadcasts. Airstrikes and artillery shelling of hundreds of targets in Lebanon. Strikes the Beirut airport, where helicopter gunships damaged runways and destroyed fuel tanks. Warships bombard Beirut's lighthouse and four ports. Air force fired a missile at a van in southern Lebanon, killing 20 people, among them 15 children. Raids on north, east and south Lebanon killed 15 people and wounded 37. Lebanon's main commercial ports of Beirut and Tripoli were attacked, as well as ports in the Christian towns of Jounieh and Amsheet. One Lebanese soldier was killed when an army radar station was hit in Batroun north of Beirut. Warplanes flattened Hezbollah's nine-story headquarters and destroyed the office of a Hamas leader, Mohammed Nazzal. Nazzal survived the attack. 45 people killed and more than 100 wounded in various air strikes in southern Lebanon around the border town of Aitaroun. Among the dead were seven Canadians, with six other Canadians critically wounded.[11] Air attacks on Beirut's southern suburbs, continued through the day and evening.
(Sources: Timeline of the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict)
As this shows the conflict had already been escalated by Israel. Israel had already attacked and destroyed Lebanese ports, international airport as well as a powerplant, which is at least the equivalent of what is being claimed about the Hezbollah escalation.
Azymuthca 20:24, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Would appear to have a home in Roles of non-combatant State and non-State actors in the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict 82.29.227.171 00:09, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Indeed it does. Removing. -- Iorek85 00:33, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
"Dana Olmert takes part in left-wing demonstration outside army chief's house; protesters call Halutz 'murderer,' declare 'intifada shall prevail.' Meanwhile, human rights groups send letter to PM, defense minister, calling on them to stop war crimes in territories." [2]
Any wonder he cant sleep at night? :D 82.29.227.171 03:00, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Why is the external links section so freaking huge? It needs to be pared down, a lot. Just that section is a significant amount of the article. Jtrainor 12:51, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Also, please see Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2006-07-25_2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict for background on those consistently attempting to delete WP:EL-compliant links from this article. AdamKesher 13:56, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
This is covered in the main article I created, and it really has nothing to do with this conflict now. It may have been the initial excuse but it quickly became irrelevant as an objective- the objective morphed into halting the rockets. That isnt to say it will be raised again but its about as relevant to whats taking place as Hezbollah wanting Shebba Farms. 82.29.227.171 15:02, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
There are several passages which in the past were removed for space considerations, but which keep getting reinserted and/or repeat claims made elsewhere in the article and/or seem to belong in subarticles. Should these passages remain or not? Examples include:
Please advise, Tewfik Talk 17:10, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Why has the page been deleted? Is it by accident? It just looks awkward having a broken link on the Main Page, and has me wondering if Wikipedia's administrators have a non-neutral point of view, or if they are legitimately trying to maintain one by acting neutral and removing itself from this conflict.
It is a very important ongoing event, much like the War in Iraq. Would we delete that article? User:Raccoon Fox • Talk 17:49, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Why was it deleted? -- musicpvm 17:49, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/5249918.stm
Head of the British army, General Sir Mike Jackson, has said civilian deaths in the conflict were regrettable but Israel was justified in taking action in the first place.
"It would be monstrous for any country not to take action when attacked in the way Israel has been," he said.
"One can debate the way in which this is done, but when you have an enemy who had made a deliberate tactic in concealing themselves among the civilian population it leads to a very ugly scene."
http://express.lineone.net/news_detail.html?sku=267
He told the BBC: "I can understand why the Israelis have set out to at least degrade the capability of their opponents, because they have been suffering civilian casualties in northern Israel from missiles fired from the other side of the border.
"I know Israel has been criticised for the weight of its attack. But I don’t think anybody could expect a sovereign nation to take incoming missiles – which were killing and injuring their population – without taking some form of action." Zeq 18:40, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Please look at [3] .There isn't anything before [4] which is written at 16:56 6 August!!!-- Sa.vakilian 18:23, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
I restored claims by Human Rights Watch that had been removed with insufficient explenation and justification as to why they where removed. If someone feels they don't belong in this article then please explain why in this talk page first. -- Cab88 20:08, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
this was the same paper that front page printed full spread a fake story about Iran requiring jews, infidels to wear badges. accompanying the story was a photos of WWII era german jews and op eds asking 'is Iran the next nazi germany'. the story was unsourced... there was 0 evidence and they printed it front page. they are not a credible source on anything involving israel arab/muslim conflicts.
1)Try to put an icon of Amal and FLOP below hezbolla icon in the combatant box. How anti-IDF force can suatain causalties in combat without beeing a combatant.
2)someone take out the NUMBER of treatened for shock from the battlebox and list them as wounded only. The battlebox is itself messy, we must do it more simple to understand.
3)try to make the article less crowded at the end. there are many links out of date and out of context at the end of the article.
Please listen and try to solve my 2 first petitions. The article really need it.
Miguel
Adding Amal and FLOP will make the box even more complicated, not less. Hezbollah is the primary combatant. Are Amal and FLOP fighting separately, or just helping Hezbollah? As for 2) agreed, but no consensus can be reached. Apparently the problem is that the Lebanese figures don't mention if they include shock or not, so just deleting it could make the Lebanese wounded seem more than there are, but adding it as wounded in Israel may make Israel seem to have more wounded than they do. As for 3) You mean the external links? Most of them are useful, but I'm yet to find a way to list them in two columns, which would really shrink them down. -- Iorek85 01:26, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Israeli officials have been bracing for possible rocket attacks on Tel Aviv, which would mark a major escalation in the conflict.
I claim this to be a misleading phrase.
Firstly, Israel has already attacked and destroyed major structures in Lebanon's largest city. Also, Hezbollah has announced that it would only launch such an attack if Israel were to make further attacks on Lebanon's capital. Both of those facts demonstrate that an attack cannot be construed as an 'escalation.'
I assume the author is trying to express that 'Israel' would interpert an attack on Tel Aviv to be an escalation. However, this is not pertanent here and as such I delete the mention of escalation. If the author wishes to qualify either the attacks on Haifa, or the attacks on Tel Aviv I suggest some phrase with the term 'retaliation.'
Azymuthca 02:00, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. It's also crystal balling. If an attack eventuates, then we report it. -- Iorek85 02:02, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Why was it removed? This is part of the Arab-Israeli conflict in general and many figures of this conflict are in that template. It needs to be brought back up. 190.40.23.107 02:56, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
It's still there. -- Iorek85 03:21, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
The EU has warned Israel about disproportionate attacks against Lebanon. [1] Spokespersons from the United Nations, the European Union, the Organization of Islamic Conference and an assortment of human rights organizations have condemned Israel for its ‘disproportionate’ response to Hezbollah’s attacks, although unprovoked by Israel. [2] Israeli Justice Minister Haim Ramon stated "We received yesterday ( 26 July) at the Rome conference permission from the world... to continue the operation," and "everyone understands that a victory for Hezbollah is a victory for world terror" [3]. The Israeli ambassador to the UN, Dan Gillerman, responded to the criticism by saying "to those countries who claim we are using disproportionate force, I have only this to say: you're damn right we are!", asserting that Israel couldn't leave the job half-finished. [4]
However, the World Health Organization has concluded that "under most circumstances, use of DU will make a negligible contribution to the overall natural background levels of uranium." [6]
It seems appropriate, I think, to at least mention the abduction of Osama and Mustafa Muamar in the section "Beginning of the conflict" (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muamar_family_detention_incident for further info.) PJ 07:00, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I think this part is more related to targeting civilian areas than Hezbollah action. So I Move to that part-- Sa.vakilian 19:17, 6 August 2006 (UTC) It should be written beside " Advance warnings of attacks by Israel ". Because these two issues are related to each other.-- Sa.vakilian 19:21, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Why is the opinion of an editorial writer put side-by-side next to that of a UN official? I think the Human Rights Watch editorial viewpoint has no place in this section. --anony
In the infobox we list casualties from both Amal and PFLP-GC. However, the only reference to Amal casualties is one single CNN article more than a week ago, citing an Amal official, and the PFLP-GC casualty claim has no reference at all. As Amal's military arm was absorbed by the Lebanese army as part of the Taif agreement, it's very possible that the Amal official that CNN talked to was referring to members of the Lebanese army who were former Amala militia, in which case we're probably listing those eight both in the Hezbollah column and the Lebanon column. I have searched the internet extensively, but have not been able to find any other sources than that CNN article which supports the notion that Amal's military arm has been activated again. Unless someone can find any impartial source supporting that notion, I suggest we remove the Amal claim. As for the claim of one dead PFLP-GC person, there is no doubt that there are still some Palestinian armed groups in Lebanon (the UNIFIL bi-annual reports mention them), but we lack a reference. And if no reference can be found, we should remove that claim as well. Thomas Blomberg 14:21, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
This page has been semi-protected for 20 hours now, but some unregistered users still seem to be able to do edits. Can someone knowledgeable in how the protection works explain this? Thomas Blomberg 14:31, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Comrade please mind you language.The international law allows everyone to defend his/her homeland not what it has occupied by force.If the hezbollah is defending it's land this should not be the reason to give them title of terrorist.if you want to equlibrate it then israel is the worst terrorist but it is not used against it because press is not biased or prejudice against anyone.So be calm and remain cool.The firing of rockets is the only way that Lebanese people can protest against this kind of extreme use of force. Yousaf465
Most sections are dedicated to Israel this and Israel that and some politician blaming Israel... where is the correct treatment of Hezbollah? Where are the quotations from other politicians who do not support Hezbollah? Where are the data on indiscriminate bombardment of residential areas in Israel with shrapnel charges? Where are the quotations about Syrian and Iranian involvement? Why is the only quote condemning Hezabollah of civilian atrocities stuck in the little section on Israeli victims, while three quotes condemning Israel proudly sit in the section introduction?
The current trend is such: Israel action gets a headline, Hezbollah action gets a bynote in a small section of the article. This is incredible, unacceptable bias in favor of the terrorists. Understandable given the bias in world press and vandalism by terrorist supporters, but where are the editors?
And where the heck is the NPOV tag? This is bias if I ever saw one!
What would you expect after more then 350 civilian casualties? Justifying itself "we kill hundreds of civilians because all we just want is to return our two soldiers" and using US support as political back up Israel set ordinary people against itself.IMHO-- Comrade Wolf 19:24, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Two soldiers? That's all you are aware of? And indiscriminate bombing of civilian areas in Israel by Hezboillah is somehow made acceptable by the bigger count of civilian casualties in Lebanon? Every claim by Hezbollah or Lebanon receives scrupulous treatment here, confirmed or not; yet there are only two phrases about Hezbollah's very tangible rocket shower. Look at the tactics, not at numbers! A million people is forced to live in bomb shelters for two weeks; there are dozens killed and hundreds wounded; from 80 to 120 80-km range rockets alone are launched daily for two weeks at cities, penetrating 30-40 km into Israeli territory, each carrying 40 kg of explosives and a charge of 0.5-cm shrapnel - and this does not even count numerous mortar shells and 20-km range "Grad" that are pounding the area closer to the border. (And don't give me the nonsense about "reliable sources" as excuse to bias the article; I have observed with disgust as source references and whole sections keep being removed again and again. Sorry, but a rocket that bursts near my house convinces me better than any media in its reality.) Lebanon government does nothing; for all practical purposes Lebanon is governed by Hezbollah - at least it has enough power there to declare war on a neighboring state without asking the Prime Minister first. Lebanon has been unable to carry out the UN resolution about disarmament of Hezbollah; Israel is now forced to carry it out at great cost, alone, after the situation had been made unbearable, while the international community calmly watches from afar. At the very least it should be made clear that Hezbollah is targeting civilian areas at random, while Israel's damage to civilians is done by attacks on Hezbollah military targets. Think of it. 400 civilians killed by 4000 air strikes? Does this look like deliberate targeting to you? The civilian casualties in Lebanon are mainly caused by, guess what, Hezbollah's tactic of hiding their personnel and munitions in populated areas. When Hezbollah stores munitions in someone's house, there are bound to be civilian victims even given Israel's advance warnings to civilians to leave the area. There were reports of Hezbollah preventing evacuation as well. Arguably, if you agree to convert your house into someone's munitions depot, then it's your responsibility and you should not be surprised if you are hit! This article fails to demonstrate the essential difference between the tactics of the sides: that Syrian proxy Hezbollah is still freely operating in Lebanon despite formal withdrawal of Syrian rule; that Hezbollah is using Lebanese population as human shield and Lebanese territory to launch daily indiscriminate attacks at the neighboring sovereign state Israel; and that Israel's force is trying to eradicate Hezbollah's threat to its country because no amount of UN resolutions was able to achieve that, and it had come to open war. Yet this article keeps giving preferential treatment to a terrorist organization, on the pretext that Israel has killed more civilians? Don't you have enough sense to notice that Hezbollah is the force that keeps Lebanese casualties up, by hiding among the civilians and launching rockets from there? You are fulfilling Hezbollah's stategy, doing precisely what they want - to cause an outrage about "Israeli killings" and divert attention from its own unsavory actions. They are no doubt happy that Lebanese civilians are killed; they know how to manipulate the West by putting civilians under fire, this tactic had worked in the past and is working now. See through it, finally!
This is getting worse and worse! There are two new sections: "Aim of Hezbollah" (summary: Hezbollah just wants to get its "prisoners" back, but now was forced to broaden its strategy) and "Aim of Israel" (summary: several nasty quotes about throwing Lebanon back 20 years and such). Do I detect more of anti-Israel agenda here? FYI, the declared goals of Israel operations are: 1) return of the two kidnapped soldiers; 2) stop to the bombardment of North Israel; 3) disarmament of Hezbollah; 4) dislocation of Lebanese army in the Southern Lebanon in place of Hezbollah. These should be in the article; they are the same as the UN official stance on the matter; references for both Israeli and UN declarations should not be hard to find. Someone with a responsibility please add it.
Hezbollah did not confine the slaughter to Israel and Lebanon. The bloodshed included multiple bombings in Argentina of Israeli and Jewish community facilities, one in Buenos Aires, March 1992 that killed 29 and another in July 1994 that killed 96. [At the time this last event was one of the worst terrorist attacks ever in the Western hemisphere.] Hezbollah is also credited with blowing up a Panamanian airplane in flight." (from palestinefacts.org).. hezbolla are truly evil bastards from several levels below hell itself
Lebanon has been given peace. Unconditionally. Six years ago Israel bent to the international and internal pressure, turned her back, and withdrew from Lebanon for good. What did Hezbollah do? Use those six years to build up large military strength on the border and go on violating it, on the pretext of "innocent" prisoners and a small chunk of occupied *Syrian* - not Lebanese! - land which they claim is proof that Israel "did not" withdraw. Lebanon had (relative) peace, left to its own problems with civil war and Syrian presence; Israel never had peace from Hezbollah. Yes, civilian victim count is higher on Lebanese side - because every killed Lebanese civilian is a score for Hezbollah, something to wail about on every news agency, to manipulate the public opinion with. They put munitions in homes, pay civilians to keep rockets in their houses, build bunkers under schools and set strongholds in hospitals, prevent refugees from leaving the strike areas, - and then make sure to blame the evil Israel on civilian casualties! The whole country of Lebanon is taken hostage by a Syrian/Iranian terrorist army, and all you see is Israel dismantling Lebanon for some inscrutable reason? Well here's that reason: Lebanon is used by a rogue state to wage war against its neighbor, is caught under fire, but did it do anything to prevent that war? No? Then don't blame Israel. Israel only fights for survival. It's life and death. What part of that you cannot understand? And, by the way, the section on civilian damage is again scrupulously citing every Israeli attack and even unverified accusations, while Hezbollah gets one generic passage in it. ONE passage about actions of an indiscriminate criminal organization, while a country protecting itself against it gets under scrutiny in a dozen. Can we have some fair treatment, please?
In my opinion the bottom part was unsalvagebly biased, I could not figure out a way to reword it so it wasn't biased so I deleted it all Gudeldar 16:58, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
It only sites what israel claims, isreali sources and other sources which repeat what the IDF/isreal claims. Lebanon has clearly from the beginning said their territory was violated, that Israeli soldiers came to the town Aaitaa al-Chaab, that they then arrested two israeli soldiers, and etc, etc. There are many previous news articles of Israeli forces having violated Lebanons sovreignty before. For example Israel has been doing sonic booms every week over Lebanon (flying low). Someone needs to fix it. Right now it only states israeli claims, its needs to be made NPOV ArmanJan 22:44, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
ArmanJan, do you care for Wikipedia to be a NPOV project? I think that even you can not deny you are heavily biased on the Arab Israeli situation. You know, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Why not admit it and let other people continue this particular thread? There is no need to defend it if you really intend good. Although I believe I am truly neutral (allowing to admit Israeli mistakes, which is something you won't do about the side you took), I am willing to let it go too. How about that? Dberliner
AceMyth has divided the "Targeting of Civilian Areas" into two sections, one for attacks by Hizbollah, another for attacks for Israel. Give the guy/gal a barnstar.
This is EXACTLY the type of editing we need to get the article NPOV. It recognizes the facts, and recognizes that both sides are engaged in the activity, and allows a balanced and equal space to facts regarding both.
Now, if only we could get the actual text to be NPOV for more than one second, we would get somewhere...-- Cerejota 13:45, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Already gave barnstar, and I understand. But this was such a minor, nonchalant edit, from someone who has barely touched the page, but is, cha-cha, an Israeli reservist, and is a great example of NPOV editing, that I think we can celebrate it and point at it and say "damn, I want to do an edit like THAT". Sheer freaking genius.
Yeah, you ask me, and the small set of good editors here from all POVs deserve a barnstar for having to fight off the vandals and those who try to sneak the POV underhandlely, not to mention having to get across our hard heads.
I guess I just want to amplify and point and emphasize that regardless of your POV, you CAN do NPOV edits. If a guy on the frontlines can come up with such a great NPOV edit, then we armchair encyclopedist surely can do it, too.-- Cerejota 14:09, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
I also happen to support the Israeli side in this conflict (which I haven't always have), but this does not alter the fact that I compeletely support that this article be NPOV as much as possible, which it very much isn't right now, and is heavily tilted with blatant lies about forbidden weapons by the Israelies, and attempts to make the Hezbollah look like a Mother Theresa organisation (just look at the image the vandals have put, shouldn't there be a corresponding image?). Their rigourous attempts to manipulate pages all around Wikipedia just shows part of that zealotry! -- Dberliner 14:43, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Your verbal attack at me and a view at your personal page record proves my point. you are far from being neutral or able to contribute to this subject in a cool manner. I have no problem with the Hezbollah being portrayed in a NPOV, this is what I stated about my morality and motives which are not tainted and want Wikipedia to truly be a place of contribution, I just clearly believe this and many other articles are just not that. It is in violation of all templates described. The battle ensues in two different arenas, as far as images go, this article tilts heavily towards the anti-israeli side (Even the Arabic version of this page is less tilted as far as images go). As far as IPs from Israel, may I remind you that 20% of israel citizens are Arabs themselves? many of them quitely oppose the regime while enjoying many of its benefits, so I assume some of them participate in those attacks. When you see a Pakistani or Lebanese IP you can be self assured no Israeli had been responsible for that edit as they would have been torn to shreds by now, if indeed in that location. I may be emotional here a bit, but you are not rooted with the facts (and I do mean FACTS, not propaganda). I'll be happy to explain them to you and others in a non-venomous manner -- Dberliner 16:32, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Not wanting to rain on anyone's parade, let me just say that this division has been suggested by me several times on this talk page (it's up there, at the end of thelong discussion about this section); the only reason I didn't do it myself is for fear of it getting reverted because I'm 'new' M. Butterfly 15:11, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
First of all, I don't really care about the credit. I'm just happy it finally happened. Now for more ideas on improving this thing. I am posting this on the talk page, as I am new and so cannot edit the semi-protected article itself.
I think the "by Hezbullah" part of this section can benefit from re-organiztion. right now the first paragraph is a quote by Nassrallah, claiming that he ddidn't attack civilian targets. that is obviously illogical - the section should start with what is now the second and third paragraphs - a concise description of civilian targets hit in Israel. This should include links like this one
[7], which verify that a post office has been hit in Haifa, and maybe a discussion of the evacuation forced in Israel. Then, the next paragraph should include Nassreallah's comments (without the first statement, "After widespread attacks on Lebanon by Israeli forces", which is somewhat POV.
In addition, I believe that my former edit, detailing claims by mayor of Haifa as to Hezbullah rockets containing special bullets designed to kill more civilians, should be re-added, as it is exactly on par with the claims by Emile Lahoud of phosphorous bombs. Just to remind everyone, I'm talking about this passage:
Please tell me what is wrong with it, or add it to the article. M. Butterfly 15:36, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Just chiming in that "both sides think it's biased towards the other side" doesn't really make it NPOV. In fact the opposite is true. When both sides think it's biased against them, that probably means that the article is a mixture of both POVs, as opposed to NPOV. When events are truely described neutrally, both sides will think the description favors them.
Here's an example: if you say "Israel won't exchange Arab terrorist prisoners for soldiers captured by the Hezbollah liberation movement", both sides will think it as biased against them - they will read the part that supports their POV as neutral and see the other part as an extremist POV, making the whole article POV in their eyes. If you use the neutral language, "Israel won't exchange Arab prisoners held on remand for soldiers captured by the Hezbollah militia", both sides will think that what is described is favourable to them, just as they do in real life. Zocky | picture popups 19:27, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
To the people who are editing this article: Please stop your edit war. This article is already semi-protected. If necessary I will make the case to an admin for full protection. The picture in the article has been changed countless times to suit the POV of diffrent sides in the debate.
If you guys can't play by the rules, please leave. There are others here who are trying to make it a place for useful information, other then crap POV pushing. Davidpdx 12:35, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
I've asked for full page protection due to the prolonged edit war. This article has been reverted in excess of 20 times in the past two hours. Davidpdx 13:24, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
The easy solution is to just put up quality image. I have come accrossed this, [9], which qualifies for fair use and looks pretty good. Still havent found any katyusha firing yet, but this is better than the previous artillery image. ~ Rangeley ( talk) 14:05, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
For me to agree with the map, get rid of "Israeli blockade" and "highway struck". You can't just show what Israel has done without showing what Hezbollah has done. Be FAIR and HONEST! -- 68.1.182.215 17:22, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Deenoe, the Israeli blockade is a military action. You can't just single out Israel! You have to mention all the other targets that Hezbollah have fired at. Also, how have thousands of people been able to leave Lebanon if Israel had a "FULL" blockade? Clearly, Israel is only preventing Hezbollah from receiving weapon shipments and containing the terrorists. -- 68.1.182.215 02:52, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Israeli blockade has not only stopped Hezbollah from receiving weapon shipments but it also caused a lot of trouble for countries trying to evacuate their citizens from Lebanon. I think that's why we should keep the blockade. Besides, Hezbollah mainly hit Haifa if I'm correct. If we show every place Hezbollah has fired on, we would have a pack of icons nears Haifa, wish would be confusing. And then if we put all the hits from Hezbollah, we also have to put all the hits from IDF. See my point? -- Deenoe 03:25, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
I think 68.1.182.215 (which by the way is doing heavy POV editing, that is neither "FAIR" nor "HONEST" as he shouted we should be) has a point. "Israeli Blockade" describes a combat action, rather than an area of conflict, as the map is meant to show. So maybe we could extend the "Area of Conflict" to the sea? Maybe with something like "Maritime conflict"? or somesuch? -- Cerejota 04:43, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
As to how maps can get ridiculous, this is why I disagree with the map that shows Hezbollah's attack. There is no such maps of Israeli attacks, and in any case I still insist it must go only in military operations rather than the main article. This affects the balance of the article.
Nevertheless that is a minor point compared to the major point of making things be about what they are. The present map is about the area of conflict, and should remain as such. If we want to make other maps about military operations, then go ahead and do them. -- Cerejota 04:43, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
How exactly can you protect this article, if it's current events, and must be changed continuously. -- Doom777 16:39, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
So you have this real disconnect between an overemphasis on the supply by Iran and Syria of Hezbollah's weapons and no discussion of the fact that all of the Israeli arsenal is from the United States, and that that is in contravention to U.S. law. to the Arms Export Control Act, which says that U.S.-origin weapons are only to be used for self-defense and for internal security. [12]
It is a disservice to the readers of Wikipedia to repeatedly mention the support Hezbollah gets from Syria and Iran without mentioning the "massive military, economic and diplomatic support from the global superpower" [13] to Israel. This bias is routine for corporate media and we needn't adopt such tendencies here.
This article repeatedly discusses the support Hezbollah receives.
Please join me in restoring balance and neutrality to this article. Allow for the discussion of support to both sides or neither side. To balance the repeated references to Hezbollah's support, I recommend a brief subsection in the "Historical Background" section. It could include a quote such as the one above, or an impeccable quote from the US Congressional Research Service. Below is a proposal that was repeatedly deleted in its entirety yesterday by users Tewfik and Strothra.
BEGIN PROPOSAL
Historical support for Israel
US politicians are repeatedly citing the support Hizbollah allegedly "gets from Syria and Iran" [5] [6]. So it is particularly relevant to consider both sides including the "massive military, economic and diplomatic support from the global superpower" [14] to Israel. According to the US Congressional Research Service:
Since 1976, Israel has been the largest annual recipient of U.S. aid and is the largest recipient of cumulative U.S. assistance since World War II. From 1949 through 1965, U.S. aid to Israel averaged about $63 million per year, over 95% of which was economic development assistance and food aid. A modest military loan program began in 1959. From 1966 through 1970, average aid per year increased to about $102 million, but military loans increased to about 47% of the total. From 1971 to the present, U.S. aid to Israel has averaged over $2 billion per year, two-thirds of which has been military assistance. [7]
More recently, according to the CATO Institute:
For fiscal year 2003, the United States provided $2.1 billion in military grants, $600 million in economic grants, and $60 million in refugee assistance to Israel. And as part of the Iraq war budget supplement, another $1 billion in military grants and $9 billion in loan guarantees to Israel were approved.96 [8]
The trend continues. Although it has not been publicly announced, "[t]he Bush administration is rushing a delivery of precision-guided bombs to Israel, which requested the expedited shipment last week after beginning its air campaign against Hizbollah targets in Lebanon, The New York Times reported on Saturday July 22, 2006." [9].
Politically, the US has vetoed literally dozens of UN resolutions calling for Israel to exercise restraint, [10] such as this list from Donald Neff of 39 "Vetoes Cast by the United States to Shield Israel from Criticism by the U.N. Security Council" [15] According to Democracy Now!, as of July 14th, 2006:
The US has already vetoed a council resolution demanding Israel end its military offensive in the Gaza Strip. Eight of the last nine vetoes have been cast by the United States. Seven of those were to do with the Israel-Palestinian conflict. [11]
The Israeli magazine Haaretz reports, "The UN Security Council on [July 15, 2006] again rejected pleas that it call for an immediate cease-fire between Israel and Lebanon after the United States objected, diplomats said." [16] "The U.S. was the sole member of the 15-nation UN body to oppose any council action at all at this time, [council diplomats] said." [17]
END PROPOSAL -- FightCancer 15:05, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
OK, it's been several hours since I posted this complaint about POV. If no one can explain to me why we should repeatedly mention support to Hezbollah but not support to Israel, then I'm going to add a small subsection. Just like it's not up to the Chinese government to decide which websites the Chinese can Google, just like it's not up to Afghani clerics to decide which religion they must worship, it's not up to us Wiki editors to decide which sources to quote. "If we add a source for the opinion, the readers can decide for themselves how they feel about the source's reliability:" -- Wikipedia policy for Weasel Words I'll take freedom of information over censorship any day. FightCancer 00:14, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Isarig, you just deleted this entire section. Would you mind explaining why this section is "POV" and "irrelevant to the topic" when Hezbollah's support is mentioned no less than 5 times in this article? I re-added the POV tag. FightCancer 01:27, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
I have to admit that I didn't think much of either of the "Support for Hezbollah" or "Support for Israel" sections in the context of this article. First, these sequence of facts don't relate immediately to the article. Second, there's the real problem with equating a militia/political party with a sovereign state. Finally, the biggest problem with these sections is that they do not condense the motivations and possible strategies of the different geopolitical powers behind this conflict to give any real insight. The U.S. backs Israel in this conflict: why? Syria and Hezbollah support each other: how strong is the link between Shi'a fundamentalists and an Alawite dictatorship? My feedback is to attempt to explain these insights in an NPOV and cited way, and neither section accomplishes this. An ideal section would be unified, interconnected, and be titled something like "Explanations for Support of the Warring Parties." AdamKesher 03:07, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Just one minor note, not 'all' (as the original poster states) of Israel's equiptment comes from the US. The tanks, for example, are Israeli made. Minor point, but it had to be made. -- Narson 01:09, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Excuse me, but how can you support leaving that thing in the article? If you press the link, you go to Khaleej times, an Arab newspaper. Arab newspapers can be good source on what is happening on the Arab side, but how can they be a source for something that was supposedly broadcast in Israeli radio, but not reported by anyone else (no Israeli or outside sources?) Especially when this is such a controversial and harsh staterment, and when it is not qualified in any way ("An arab newspaper claims" or so)?
But obviously, this comment will remain unanswered, as are all my comments in the talk page so far. So much for discussion. M. Butterfly 16:33, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
I am copying here the discussion on this issue from AdamKesher's talk page, in order that more Wikipedians get to voice theit thoughts on this.
Excuse me, but how can you support leaving that thing in the article? If you press the link, you go to Khaleej times, an Arab newspaper. Arab newspapers can be good source on what is happening on the Arab side, but how can they be a source for something that was supposedly broadcast in Israeli radio, but not reported by anyone else (no Israeli or outside sources?) Especially when this is such a controversial and harsh staterment, and when it is not qualified in any way ("An arab newspaper claims" or so)?
But obviously, this comment will remain unanswered, as are all my comments in the talk page so far. So much for discussion. M. Butterfly 16:36, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree with M. Butterfly here - this sounds like a case of wartime propaganda, not anything that is actually backed up by facts. -- Cyde↔Weys 17:25, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
For what reason should we doubt any news service--including Khaleej Times or Nahamet? I see nothing wrong with this quote as long as the entire first 2 sentences are quoted including "army radio said Monday", "a senior air force officer told the station", and a citation. State where the information is coming from. Then let readers be the judge--not you and me.
To address your questions M. Butterfly: 1. IMO it is very consistent with the facts. Consider this ratio: "Over the past nine days, 10 times as many Lebanese have died as Israelis." [18] 2. Again, it's very fitting.
Israel, in the first few days of the Intifada, was using U.S. helicopters – they don’t make them – U.S. helicopters to attack civilian complexes, apartment houses and so on, killing and wounding dozens of people. And the U.S. did respond to that. Clinton responded by sending the biggest shipment of military helicopters in a decade to Israel. The press responded, too, by not publishing it, I should add, refusing to publish it, because it was repeatedly brought to their attention. Well, while the ratio was 20 to 1, which is pretty much what it has been for a long time, there was no concern here. [19]
Israel has a long history of disproportionate casualties. According to this source, the ratio of Israeli deaths to Palestinian deaths has exceeded 5:1 for many years. [20] 3. I would prefer another link too, but is it up to us to decide what sources we will and will not accept? 4. Touché
Actually, it *is* up to us to decide which sources to accept. I see no sign on AFP's own site or on Yahoo's archive of AFP stories that this "10 buildings" story was ever issued from AFP. My conclusion is therefore that one or another Arab news agency (many of which are anti-Israeli state mouthpieces) concocted it, attributed it to AFP for reasons of credibility, and it was dutifully re-reported by other agencies. This is a third-hand report through multiple media services (IAR to AFP to Khaleej) and it ought to go until somebody can provide a link to the AFP story on a reputable news service. (edit: I'm not going to bother actually snipping the offending sentence until I get some sort of response here; that would only create a revert war) Khaighle 22:09, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Do you really believe that people who read this article will sort through the 186, and raising, different sources to check if every one of them is reliable? That's just completely ridiculous. It is obvious the statement is propaganda, as it isn't on the AFP site. Leaving that sentence there, knowing it is false, is in complete contradiction of what writing an article in any encyclopedia is about. ( note: I have also lost all trust I had in wikipedia due to this discussion and the ridiculous conclusion you came to. I always thought your goal was to write articles as truthful as possible, not to write all the mumbo-jumbo you could find on the net and vomit it on the page and let the reader figure it out. ) At least change the wording around so it isn't deceptive. The source cited at the bottom of the article is AFP, which is clearly not the original source, as stated before.
More news agencies have reported this AFP press report: News24 in South Africa and Aljazeera. This report was originally scorned and deleted because it appeared in an Arab newspaper—should we also doubt it because it now appears in one from predominately black South Africa? I'll add these citations and let the readers decide. AdamKesher 10:22, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Of course it's up to us to decide. We're the editors; who else is there? It's not an AFP press report. The story never appeared on the AFP site. At best it's an Aljazeera story, at worst Khaleej or somebody before them made it up. If we're going to regurgitate Arab propaganda we should at least label it as such. The footnote still says AFP, while the link still goes to Khaleej. And the actual sentence still reads far too much like the threat is an established fact. Which it's not. It's perfectly acceptable to report that this assertion has been made. What's not acceptable is to falsely attribute the assertion to a more reliable source in order to reach for credibility that it doesn't deserve. I'm not saying the story's false. I'm saying we don't actually know that it's true, and the sentence in the article reads like we know just that. (Edit: I further note that Aljazeera, the Arab news agency, attributes the story to AFP, while News24, from the less-but-still-somewhat hostile South Africa, does not) Khaighle 16:54, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Well. I *was* basing my argument on the fact that neither Yahoo's nor AFP's own last-few-articles archives displayed this report when I went to look, which would have been well within the appropriate time frame (Khaleej having retransmitted it on July 24). However, determined to prove just how biased and wrong you are, I went through the AFP search engine, and the article is in fact there. The full text isn't viewable for free, but a modest payment informs me that it is, as far as the relevant facts are concerned, entirely in accord with the sources you quote. Believe me when I say I'm greatly annoyed that the story appears to have been buried by the Western press. Of course, while we've been arguing about this like civilized people some barbarian has duffed up our pet sentence while mucking about with photo embedding. I'll fix it. Khaighle 17:59, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
What I was going to point out, however, was that the story doesn't actually say "residential" anywhere. "Multi-storey" and "residential" are not the same thing. It may be implicit that all multi-storey buildings in Dahaya are residential apartment complexes, and then again it may not. Using "residential" is more inflammatory than necessary, and I've updated accordingly, and knocked off all but one of the reference notes; Aljazeera's version is enough if nobody's disputing the reference. (edit: Whoops. Footnote should still mention AFP) Khaighle 18:35, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm putting this here because I've argued that in the miltary section, the sequence should be Hezhollah, then Israel, but in the Civilian section this should be reversed. Trying to avoid revert war -- please add your opinions here.
Okay, this is what I have come up with in my persuit of most NPOV I can think of:
Beginning of conflict
According to Israel, at 9:05 AM local time (06:05 CET), on 12 July 2006, [12] the Lebanese group Hezbollah initiated a rocket and mortar attack on northern Israel, mainly on the village of Shelomi, resulting in five civilian casualties. [13] Israel furthermore says that a large ground contingent of Hezbollah militants then attacked two Israeli armored IDF Humvees on a routine patrol of the Israeli side of the Israel-Lebanon border, near the Israeli village of Zar’it with anti-tank rockets.
According to Lebanon, Israeli soldiers had infiltrated the Lebanese town Ayta al-Sha`b and had been arrested therein. [14] Lebanon also says that Israeli aicraft, which were already active over Lebanese airspace, bombed the roads leading to the market town of Nabatiyeh, 60 kilometers south of Beirut, initiating the conflict. [15]
During the event that took place, Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers, and killed eight. [16] The IDF confirmed the capture of the two Israeli soldiers and identified them as Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev, both reservists who were on their last day of operational duty. [17]
The Israeli newspaper Haaretz reported that, "A force of tanks and armored personnel carriers was immediately sent into Lebanon in hot pursuit. It was during this pursuit, at about 11:00 A.M. … a Merkava tank drove over a powerful bomb, containing an estimated 200 to 300 kilograms of explosives, about 70 meters north of the border fence. The tank was almost completely destroyed, and all four crew members were killed instantly. Over the next several hours, IDF soldiers waged a fierce fight against Hezbollah gunmen … During the course of this battle, at about 3:00 P.M., another soldier was killed and two were lightly wounded." [18]
Hezbollah released a statement saying 'Implementing our promise to free Arab prisoners in Israeli jails, our strugglers have captured two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon,' [15] Later on Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah declared that “No military operation will return them… The prisoners will not be returned except through one way: indirect negotiations and a trade of prisoners.” [19]
Let's work on it, suggest your changes below.
ArmanJan 19:15, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Okay, its changed to implement both your wishes. No more claims (changed into says), added "according to". Can we agree on this? ArmanJan 19:50, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Those who havent replied should either do it now, or not whine later. :D ArmanJan 20:32, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
May I suggest using the POV page [21] for discussing POV issues? FightCancer 20:49, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
I think you have a lower monitor resolution (800x600?), or your browser text size is set to something larger. My screen is in 1152x864, and browser has normal text size, it falls well between the pictures. Even if I go back to 1024x768, al though further down, the text still goes around the picture. (both in Firefox and IE). ArmanJan 00:15, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Seeing as we have reached a consensus on the section I will add it to the main article. FightCancer, feel free to add the blockquotation in the article, but it really does look ugly on my PC (even in 1024x768). ArmanJan 12:39, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
There have been edits adding what I characterize as mitigating POV comments to the sentence on confirmed Israeli attacks on ambulances and hospitals. I'd like to avoid a revert war -- please comments here. This was my initial message to User talk:Denis Diderot on this edit ( ), which has just been reverted by User talk:Shrike here. I'm arguing to just state the confirmed facts in a sequence and leave the responding comments for later, where they already reside. AdamKesher 21:21, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
During the discussion to delete the monstrous POV aberration called " The role of Iran and Syria during the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict", I did realize that the encyclopedic quality of the article might better served is we create a new, different page called " Roles of non-combatant State and non-State actors in the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict". This is because while I support deleting the other article for a bunch of reasons, a main one is that it is limited to Syria and Iran, whereas there are reports and factual information on the involvement, direct or indirect, of a number of State and non-State of conflicts, not just Syria and Iran, and the sole mention of Syria and Iran is a major NPOV violation. Its as we spoke only about Israeli bombing of civilians, or only about the role of the IDF. Ludicrous, prima-facie bias!
(Yes! Another battleground in the edit wars!)
I will be bold and create it, we can always delete later if we so feel like it.-- Cerejota 19:31, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
The lead currently makes no mention of what the Hezbollah operation, which is widely cited as the casus belli, actually consists of, while continuing to mention Israel's retaliation. I am inserting a minor description to make it NPOV. Tewfik Talk 00:46, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Last paragraph of the introduction
This sentence equates Hezbollah's purposely targeting civilians and Israel accidentally killing civilians because Hezbollah hide among civilians. Even if you believe that Israel wants to kill civilians there is still no comparison between Hezbollah which admits to wanting to kill civilians and Israel who says that they don't want to kill civilians. This sentence put conspiracy theories on the same footing as statements made by Hezbollah! Jon513 19:25, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
As to the actual heading, well, WP:V puts its stress in verifiability not truth and WP:NPOV requires balanced presentation. So if your question is "balance or truth?" the unqualified wikipedia answer is: *balance*. DOn't like it? Discuss it int the talk pages of WP:V, or leave wikipedia. But for better or worse thats the law of the land.-- Cerejota 20:03, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Can you fix this problem by changing the word "targeting"? It is the intro, after all, so the body can add context. How about "Concerns have been raised regarding civilian causualties caused by both sides' actions?" (for bonus credit, someone could fix "Concerns have been raised") TheronJ 17:35, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Just to note that I think the use of either of these words is probably best avoided w.r.t to NPOV. Aprogressivist 14:14, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
The attacks against civilian populations in the course of the conflict are controversial, and Undersecretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs and Emergency Relief Coordinator Jan Egeland - famous for calling the United States 'stingy' on Tsunami relief - has referred to the Israeli strikes as "a violation of humanitarian law," though he also accused Hezbollah of "cowardly blending" among civilians.
Is it really relevant to mention "famous for calling the United States 'stingy' on Tsunami relief"? I think it may have been strategically placed to advance a certain point of view or cater to certain interests. -- Epsilonsa 21:54, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
1.- I have added the following line to try to mention hizbollah's point of view, after all, how can their aim be what israeli's say, while hizbollah officials' words aren't included.
Hizbollah has stated that their main aim is exchange of prisoners. Hizbollah has indeed tried over the years to request their prisoners back and threaten the kidnapping of soldiers for an exchange of prisoners. citation needed
2.- The Israeli newspaper Haaretz writes, "Hezbollah's goals are simple, perhaps even attainable. Continuing the rocket fire, preventing Lebanon from becoming a step in the American vision for a new Middle East, and preventing its own disarmament. The group has no intention of renouncing its weapons in any cease-fire. " [22]
I MEAN COME ON, "hizbollah's evil plans to make lebanon a worse place because its democratic now and they don't like it".. I mean wow! Hizbollah's existence HUGELY DEPENDS on lebanon being a democratic country, if it wasn't, hizbollah wouldn't be allowed to exist.
Hizbollah is being treated as a terrorist group just because 2 countries in the world view it as it is, please remember that lebanon itself doesn't view hizbollah as being a terrorist group, and so does the europian union.
What needs to be included in my own point of view so that it would be an NPOV article: 1- Hizbollah's goals emphasized, instead of taking 30% of the section, they should take 60% 2- Hizbollah officials have stated other goals, such as this being: "israel's last war", such things should be included. Eshcorp 15:41, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
The main template lists "875 treated for shock" for Israel. To be fair, it should list the number treated for shock in the other two columns. But to be realistic, this is a POV measurment, since Hezbollah and Lebanon are probably lacking access to treatment facilities. I say it should be removed altogether from the tally. -- 0g 23:35, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Israeli reports can not be trusted as has been demonstrated by thier claims and high censorship levels.
http://uruknet.info/?p=m25177&hd=0&size=1&l=e
read this on by Wikipedia has an unusually large amount of vandalizing editors deleting facts that are incriminating for Israel...
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2289232,00.html
this site is filled with evivence http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
So get on your tinfoil hats, and follow those links for some NPOV jew bash.. uhmm Zionst.. sorry.. legitimate neutral EEZRAEEELI information..
Israel has freedom of press. No other Arab regime has that! Hezbollah and every other Arab country only show what they want you to see! Arab citizens are only seeing certain parts of the conflict. Moreover, remember the picture of Palestinians cheering after 9/11? Well haven't you noticed that it has disappeared! What happened was that Palestinian terrorists threatened to kill the man who filmed that. So, CNN stopped showing it and the man was released. Israel on the other hand has freedom of press. -- 68.1.182.215 02:09, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Please don't pretend that a wiki dominated by yanks can ever discuss the slaughter of muslims and other dark-skinned foreigners in a neutral fashion. You are doing a disservice not only to the world, but to the Wikipedia project in general (there are other wikis where the monolingual yanks cannot dominate the POV). To the yanks reading this, the lebanese are not untermensch even though I don't blame you for believing this. Bugmenot42 02:30, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
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