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Let's see... Weren't the "Stern gang" (a.k.a Lehi) and Irgun created in the late 30s? And weren't their actions carried out towards the late 40s? So why put them in 1920? And finally, wasn't there a third organisation... Haganah? Which could not be called terrorist no matter how hard you try? Funny that's not mentioned. -- Uriyan
Don't ask me... all I did was change "self-defense groups" into "armed groups", and delete the bit about "Most of whose actions were non-controversial" (or whatever it said), since I'm sure a lot of people (e.g. Palestinians) don't consider any of those acts non-controversial.
This article needs a lot of work. It doesn't feel NPOV, but then I really don't know much about the creation of Israel. There are some grammar issues (changing tense, not to mention most of it is in the 'present' tense) but I didn't fix them simply because most of this article is about the creation of Israel, _not_ the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. I don't know if there is a topic already present that covers the creation of Israel. If there is, most of this should be eliminated except what can be merged. If there isn't, most of this topic probably can be moved to a new topic covering Israel's creation. The information on the war itself could do with some expanding too. Takers? Rgamble
With the Golan Heights, it is not exact as to what actually constitutes the Golan Heights or where the border ran. There was a debate between Britain and France over the northern border of Palestine, and the location of Jewish settlements in the region did affect the outcome, however, most of the Golan Heights was then in French hands. Danny
Removed this:
As it basically says that the Palestinians are lying and this is the correct version. Instead, lets find a version that we all can agree on. BL
Changelog:
Jews were not less than a third but almost exactly a third of the population. What "industrial capacity" are you talking about? Palestine did not have a developed industrial system (and neither does Israel now, 50 years later). Finally, perhaps it is 55% (not 60%!) of the area, but that's including the Negev desert, which takes up a very fair share. Now if you remember, Arabs rejected a portion the Negev at the Camp David talks because they thought it was useless. Now it's definitely suited for urban development (after Israel installed water pipes that lead water from the Kinneret to the Negev); 50 years ago it was a total loss. You can't consistently use both an argument and its opposite.
As you might have perhaps noticed, most of the lands were state-owned. If you bring up the "communal holding" argument (as in here), then it's invalid, as it doesn't give a figure to compare with. What the reader would probably want to know is land utilization, of the Jews and the Arabs. Otherwise it's comparison between apples and oranges.
It is documented in many places that the Arab leadership's request was to remove the Jews (I believe the wording was "pushing the Jews into the sea"). It seems unfortunate that you ignore this. I find this "invention", which goes in a direct contradiction to the facts, fallacious and biased.
You ignore the fact that the first part of the 1948 war was a defensive. Well, it was. Egyptians were contained at kibbutz Yad Mordechai; Syrian forces were stopped in Jezreel; Israel was unable to hold the Jewish Quarter of Old Jerusalem, but still grasped on the Jewish Western neighborhoods. As to "/who else" part: do you really want to know this, or you don't care? -- Uri
I'm somewhat surprised that an article allegedly about the Arab-Israeli War has only a few paragraphs on the actual war! I appreciate the desire to put things in context, but that should fall short of describing the entire thing... Martin
The paragraphs above don't belong in this article which is supposed to be about the 1948 war. Move them to History of Israel or somewhere similar. -- zero
Good point. I will also remove " and more than 600,000 Jewish refugees (See Map and Israeli Estimate), were created during this conflict." for the same reason. 137.186.217.254 07:16, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I removed "The British administration did little to mitigate the riots." because it is wrong. The British increased their military and police force several fold, killed thousands of Arabs in more or less open battle, imposed curfews, conducted hundreds of raids, destroyed hundreds of houses (including at least one whole village), and hanged more than 100 Arabs. -- zero
A number of errors that stand out:
1) The goal of Plan "D" (or Dalet), prepared by the Haganah High Command in March of 1948, was not just "to take over and control the areas alotted to the Jewish state in the partition plan", but was to include "those of the blocs of Jewish settlements and such Jewish population as were outside those borders" (see http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/d442111e70e417e3802564740045a309?OpenDocument). Also, Plan "D" should be moved to the latter part of the "First phase".
2) The "First phase" announces that "Arabs...took the offensive" without taking into account the facts as related by numerous leaders of Israeli military planning, including what Mr. Menachem Begin, an Irgun leader wrote (again, from http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/d442111e70e417e3802564740045a309?OpenDocument):
"In the months preceding the Arab invasion, and while the five Arab States (Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon and Transjordan) were conducting preparations for concerted aggression, we continued to make sallies into the Arab area. In the early days of 1948, we were explaining to our officers and men, however, that this was not enough. Attacks of this nature carried out by any Jewish forces were indeed of great psychological importance, and their military effect, to the extent that they widened the Arab front and forced the enemies on to the defensive, was not without value. But it was clear to us that even most daring sallies carried out by partisan troops would never be able to decide the issue. Our hope lay in gaining control of territory.
"At the end of January, 1948, at a meeting of the Command of the Irgun in which the Planning Section participated, we outlined four strategic objectives: (1) Jerusalem; (2) Jaffa; (3) the Lydda-Ramleh plain; and (4) the Triangle.
"Setting ourselves these objectives we knew that their achievement would be dependent on many factors but primarily on the strength in men and arms that we would have at our disposal. We consequently decided to treat the plans as 'alternatives': we would carry out what we could. As it happened, of the four parts of the strategic plan we executed only the second in full.
"In the first and third parts we were able to record important achievements on the battlefield - but we did not attain decisive victories.
"As for the fourth part, we were never allowed an opportunity even to begin to put the plan into operation. The conquest of Jaffa, however, stands out as an event of first-rate importance in the struggle for Hebrew independence."
Also, Ben-Gurion writes (again, from http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/d442111e70e417e3802564740045a309?OpenDocument):
"...Field troops and Palmach in particular were thus deployed and quickly showed the mettle that was soon to animate our army and bring it victory.
"...New Jerusalem was occupied, and the guerrillas were expelled from Haifa, Jaffa, Tiberias, Safad while still the Mandatory was present. It needed sagacity and self-control not to fall foul of the British army. The Hagana did its job; until a day or two before the Arab invasion not a settlement was lost, no road cut, although movement was seriously dislocated, despite express assurances of the British to keep the roads safe so long as they remained. Arabs started fleeing from the cities almost as soon as disturbances began in the early days of December 1947. As fighting spread, the exodus was joined by bedouin and fellahin, but not the remotest Jewish homestead was abandoned and nothing a tottering Administration (meaning the British Mandatory) could unkindly do stopped us from reaching our goal on May 14, 1948 in a State made larger and Jewish by the Haganah ..."
3) The "Third phase" claims "[t]he UN approved" accepting Israel as a member state in May 1948, when that did not happen until 11 May 1949, or the latter part of the "Fourth phase", as outlined on this site.
4) Again, in the "Third phase", it is claimed that:
"Lebanese, Syrian, Iraqi, and Egyptian troops invaded Israel and joined the arab guerrillas. A bitter war ensued."
While obviously and shamefully short, especially considering this article is supposedly concerning these two sentences, it is factually incorrect. Another snippet from http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/d442111e70e417e3802564740045a309?OpenDocument:
During the months preceding the end of the Mandate, Jewish forces had moved to occupy key cities and areas in the territory designated for the Arab State. Ben-Gurion writes that before the Mandate ended:
"... no Jewish settlement, however remote, was entered or seized by the Arabs, while the Haganah ... captured many Arab positions and liberated Tiberias and Haifa, Jaffa and Safad ... So, on the day of destiny, that part of Palestine where the Haganah could operate was almost clear of Arabs".
The major part of Jerusalem meant to be internationalized under the partition plan, had also been occupied by Jewish forces.
On the termination of the Mandate, Jewish forces moved to occupy further territory beyond the boundaries specified by the Partition resolution. This lead to the influx of neighboring Arab militias, who entered, according to these reasons as outlined in the cable the Arab League sent the United Nations Secretary-General:
"Now that the Mandate over Palestine has come to an end, leaving no legally constituted authority behind in order to administer law and order in the country and afford the necessary and adequate protection to life and property, the Arab States declare as follows:
"(a) The right to set up a Government in Palestine pertains to its inhabitants under the principles of self-determination recognized by the Covenant of the League of Nations as well as the United Nations Charter;
"(b) Peace and order have been completely upset in Palestine, and, in consequence of Jewish aggression, approximately over a quarter of a million of the Arab population have been compelled to leave their homes and emigrate to neighbouring Arab countries. The prevailing events in Palestine exposed the concealed aggressive intentions of the Zionists and their imperialistic motives ...
"(c) The Mandatory has already announced that on the termination of the Mandate it will no longer be responsible for the maintenance of law and order in Palestine ... This leaves Palestine absolutely without any administrative authority ...
"...
"(e) ... The recent disturbances in Palestine further constitute a serious and direct threat to peace and security within the territories of the Arab States themselves. For these reasons, and considering that the security of Palestine is a sacred trust for them, and out of anxiousness to check the further deterioration of the prevailing conditions and to prevent the spread of disorder and lawlessness into the neighbouring Arab lands, and in order to fill the vacuum created by the termination of the Mandate and the failure to replace it by any legally constituted authority, the Arab Governments find themselves compelled to intervene for the sole purpose of restoring peace and security and establishing law and order in Palestine.
"The Arab States recognize that the independence and sovereignty of Palestine which was so far subject to the British Mandate has now, with the termination of the Mandate, become established in fact, and maintain that the lawful inhabitants of Palestine are alone competent and entitled to set up an administration in Palestine for the discharge of all governmental functions without any external interference. As soon as that stage is reached for the intervention of the Arab States, which is confined to the restoration of peace and establishment of law and order, shall be put an end to, and the sovereign State of Palestine will be competent in co-operation with the other States members of the Arab League, to take every step for the promotion of the welfare and security of its peoples and territory ..."
Here is where the meat of the story begins, which the UN document sums up with the following:
"The fighting between the Arab forces on one hand and what were now Israeli forces on the other escalated into the first Middle East War. The Israeli forces were well manned and well trained, drawing on the Jewish Brigade formed during the Second World War, and on the various armed groups such as the Haganah, the Palmach, and the Irgun. They were well equipped with arms acquired within and without Palestine during the Mandate period. The intervention by the Arab States in support of the "Arab State" in Palestine proved largely ineffective in the face of decisive Israeli military superiority. Within weeks, Israel had occupied most of the territory of Palestine, with the exception of the "West Bank" of the Jordan, held by the Arab Legion from Jordan and the Gaza Strip, held by Egyptian forces (map at annex II.) But for these exceptions, Israel now controlled virtually the entire territory claimed by the Zionist Movement at the Paris Peace Conference in 1919 as the "Jewish national home"."
5) The section "First Truce" incorrectly states that "[o]n June 11 a general truce was agreed upon largely due to mediator Count Folke Bernadotte's efforts". The cease-fire was ordered by the Security Council on 29 May 1948 and Bernadotte was sent to the region to supervise the cease-fire.
6) The omission of Bernadotte's end is surprising. Both of his recommendations were rejected by both sides, but before the UN could act on either of the recommendations, Bernadotte was assassinated by Lehi (Israel's official explanation, although they then claimed that Lehi existed only as a political group and had disbanded its military), sometimes referred to as the Stern Gang. A report to the UN on the assassination included information that the Count's killers were wearing Israeli army uniforms and also noted that "the Provisional Government of Israel must assume the full responsibility ... for these assassinations ..." The Security Council requested the Israeli Government to investigate the assassination and to submit a report to the Council, but no report was received. (see the UN document)
7) The section under "1949 Armistice Agreements" is incorrect. Though the agreements were separately signed from Feb through July 1949, they "specified inter alia that the 'armistice between the armed forces [was] an indispensable step toward the liquidation of armed conflict and the restoration of peace in Palestine', recognizing 'the principle that no military or political advantage should be gained". The agreements "being dictated exclusively by military, and not political, considerations' did not prejudice the political positions of any of the parties on the ultimate settlement of the Palestine question. Thus they gave Israel no legal right to the territories occupied during the 1948 hostilities, beyond the lines specified in the partition resolution." (see the UN document)
"While in occupation of territories beyond those allotted by the resolution, Israel applied for admission to the United Nations on 29 November 1948. It was criticized in the Security Council for its non-compliance with United Nations resolutions and on 17 December 1948 its application failed, receiving 5 votes in favour, 1 against, with 5 abstentions." (see UN document)
8) Another omission is resolution 194, establishing "the right of peaceful return of the Palestinians to their homes (a right that has been reiterated annually by the General Assembly up to the present time)". (again, see UN document)
9) Again, the "1949 Armistice Agreements" section omits any mention of the inconclusive Conciliation Commission for Palestine, whose report showed that Israel "now envisaged a Palestinian Arab State limited to the territories occupied by Egypt and Jordan, but this was unacceptable at the time to both the Palestinian Arabs and to the Arab States". (see UN document)
10) The article omits the correct date that Israel was admitted into the UN: 11 May 1949.
11) The "neutral" stasis of the article is betrayed by the mentioning of Jews having their rights diminished in Arab states without mentioning the reciprocal situation as existed (and exists) in Israel.
More errors may remain, but that is all the time I have now...
Please be proactive and work on the article itself. Of course you are right that there are lots of problems with the article as it stands. Btw, the Bernadotte assassination is at Folke Bernadotte and Lehi so maybe no more than a pointer is needed here. -- zero 06:10, 24 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Zero: I got my numbers for the sizes of the Arab regular forces from Eugene Rogan's article Jordan and 1948: The Persistence of an official History in The War for Palestine, Cambridge University Press, 2001. This is the text of his footnote:
I have no reason to believe that this source is better than yours. But as there seems to be disagreement on the numbers, I think we should include a footnote or citation or whatever to indicate where we got them. Where did you get your numbers? Is there disagreement between different reports?
WHO removed Plan Dalet?????????????????+ BL 04:36, 5 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Minor edit: changing "Naqba" to "Nakba." The latter, spelled in Arabic with kaf, means disaster, calamity, catastrophe. The former (incorrect) transliteration, spelled in Arabic with qaf, means opening, breach, hole; and I am given to understand that it has the vulgar colloquial (and anatomical) meaning that you might expect. (Note: my username is JBJD, and even though I'm logged in, the preview of the page doesn't appear to list my username after my comment. I'm a Wiki newbie and admittedly haven't gone through the FAQs at any length. Anybody know how to do this, or should I just RTFM?)
Fixed several English language problems, and added references to Haj Amin al-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and the general leader of the Palestinian Arabs during the Mandatory period. He was missing from the text, possibly because of his collaboration with the Nazis and family relation to Yasser Arafat.
The war simply cannot be understood without the inclusion of the Grand Mufti. He set in stone both Palestinian Arab ideology and their strategy of of sporadic, disorganized terror.
There are other strategic omissions, including the Siege of Jerusalem and the Arab League meetings of November and December, 1947, during which the war was declared and funded.
Noam Chomsky [3] among others says that Al-Aqsa intifada is NOT the result of Sharon's visit to the temple mount. OneVoice 21:14, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I reverted whoever changed the text to read that the Israelis refer to this war as the "War of Conquest", because it seems exceptionally unlikely. If anyone has evidence that this is indeed the case (rather than "War of Independence") then please supply it here. DJ Clayworth 15:27, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
UNGA Resolution 194 [4] stipulates many things. One of these is return of refuges (Article 11), with no word limited only to Arabs. However, a condition is set: wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours. Arabs ignored this article no less than Israel. In addition, Arabs ignored Article 7 (free access to Holy Places). Access to Jerusalem (Article 9) was also blocked. Both Israel and Arabs, as well as UN Security Council, ignored Article 8 (demilitarization of Jerusalem, corpus separatum). -- 128.139.226.36 08:14, 24 May 2004
There are many different published figures for the strength of the Arab armies. The numbers in the article come from the book of Israeli military historian Amitzur Ilan, which is a recent specialist book that examines this question closely. Don't change them unless you have a source that you can argue is better. -- Zero 09:10, 6 Jun 2004 (UTC)
"May 28, when the Arab Legion succeeded in expelling Israeli forces from the Arab quarters of Jerusalem"
What happened on May 28 1948 was the occupation and subsequent expulsion of 1,600 Jews living in the Jewish quarter of the Old City for generations. Calling the Jewish quarter "Arab quarters" and speaking only about Israeli forces is an ugly piece of disinformation.
It feels a little biased in favour of the Zionists to me. There seems to be no mention of the King David Hotel or any such things. While attacks on Jews and Christians prior to the declaration of the state of Israel are mentioned, there is no mention of any attacks on Arabs. Also, there seems to be an assumption that the population split into Muslim, Jewish and Christian with the accompanying assumption that Arabs are muslim, Racial Jews are religious jews and 'white people' are christian. I don't know, feels like it could use a little work. But I agree, very hard topic to work on...
This article is marked as in NPOV dispute. What are the outstanding issues? I have one
What else? ---- Charles Stewart 17:20, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
This:
Someone please dePOV both. Sir Paul 07:29, Dec 10, 2004 (UTC)
This entire article went from bad to worse. It is sad to see everything on wikipedia about Palestine/Israel so completely distorted. It happens on both sides, but particularly tends to ignore the Palestinian viewpoint and that of the very important work of Israeli Historians such as Avi Shlaim. It's a shame, because it lowers my faith in Wikipedia as a whole. If I can't get good information about the 1948 War, what can I trust on the site?
Revised grammatical issues in the first section. Removed the statement "for their own interest" from the section about the adjustments to Paletine's borders, as it had no support or references.
"This immigration drew immediate and violent opposition from local Arabs." Should be revised. All indications that this was certainly not the case. For the most part, the local Arab population did not become armed for many years. The violent Jewish gangs (Stern gang for one) had a agenda from the early 20's to annex the entire area they now (outside of the Sinai) control. The Turks were able to keep control of the Arabs because only the Jordanians East of the West Bank had any considerable fighting force. The Egytians and the Persians did much later, but had little issue with Israel in the 20's.
I have found many references to Israel flying Czechoslovakian built Messerschmidt Bf-109's (and possibly some ex RAF planes) as part opf their airforce in 1948 - so removing the table as being of dubious accuracy. See - amongst others: http://history1900s.about.com/library/prm/blkillingmachine5.htm http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1470135,00.html http://freespace.virgin.net/john.dell/bf109/Bf109Story.htm http://www.goisrael.com/pressroom/pressReleases.asp?actiontype=show&id=15122 http://www.bf109.com/foreign.html
"At the huge outdoor Israel Air Force Museum, 4 miles southwest of Beersheba, you’ll find 90 wonderous airplanes neatly parked. See a Messerschmitt bought from Czechoslovakia in 1948, a Kfir, Israel’s first fighter plane, and the current Israel President’s, Ezer Weizmann’s, Spitfire. An excellent documentary film is shown inside the very Boeing 707 that was used to rescue the Entebbe hostages in 1976. Phone 07-990-6428."
Not enough to give good numbers - but enough references to show the table is not good. 62.252.0.7 22:39, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Problem is that once you discredit one part of a "scolarly source" - and the presence in Israels Air Force Museum of a fighter plane that the source claims not to have existed seems good evidence to me - means that the whole credability is shot, at least with respect to that part of the work. I deliberately took out just the table because I wanted to avoid weasel words showing some sort of "controversy" then the author clearly simply got it wrong. 62.252.0.7 11:28, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
The source of this disagreement can be seen at Avia S-199. Those aircraft were converted Messerschmidts, with the airframe pretty much unchanged. That's why many sources call them Messerschmidts. Secondly, they didn't start arriving until some weeks after May 15, so they won't appear in a list of Israel's equipment as of May 15. -- Zero 13:14, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
The table of ordnance gives the Haganah estimates made at the time with incomplete information. It is not a table based on the best information that has become available since then. As Morris notes (Victims, p217), "In practice [the Arabs] had far less, much of the equipment (especially the aircraft) being unserviceable, and some of the remainder never reaching Palestine." A good source on this in English is "The Origins of the Arab-Israeli Arms Race: Arms, Embargo, Military Power and Decision in the 1948 Palestine War" by Amitzur Ilan (Hebrew University). It can't be too biased to the left, since even Daniel Pipes likes it. -- Zero 16:17, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
I don't have good sources on this...but...I understand that the IDF was across the international border in Egypt in early 1949 and indeed came under British and American pressure to leave, however I think they were already out of Egypt by Jan 7. I could easily be wrong. Also, I have one book that says the British planes were shot down over Egyptian territory; is it wrong? Ian, if you could cross-check your information with another source that would be good. Also, I think that the names of the pilots of the planes is way too fine detail for a summary page like this. -- Zero 22:34, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
With reference to Kriegman's addition of "This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades" (Howard M Sachar, A History of Israel, New York: Knopf, 1979, p. 333) it's worth noting that Sachar doesn't provide a reference. I haven't been able to find any source for this quotation anywhere, although there are 662 pages including the phrase on the web, plus many mentions in books. -- Ian Pitchford 18:55, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Yes, I know - I guess the search a while back was inconclusive? Of course I do not support reliance on such quotes, and prefer official statements, if kept, maybe something like (the original source of this quote is difficult to ascertain or apparently unknown) should be added. Things like that, true or not, are all over the web, when the official statement is in part in one place, and in full nowhere yet. John Z 22:07, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
I searched google, Jewish Virtual Library attributes the same quotation to Isi Leibler, The Case For Israel, (Australia: The Globe Press, 1972), p. 15.. Would still be interesting to find original press reports, such as a newspaper article. But it is generally difficult to find first-hand documentation to events that happened so long time ago. Did Stalin really say "A single death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic"? It is widely believed that he said that, but is it possible to source it? -- Heptor 22:33, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
I must say, I find it striking that this quotation is subject to such careful scrutiny; not inappropriate, but striking. There was no rush to correct the clearly biased implication created when the words of Azzam's cablegram, calling for a "United State of Palestine," were put into the article. That sounds so reasonable: A United State. The Arabs were fighting for a shared state where everyone was equal, like the US is supposed to be. How noble.
Yet it would be hard to refute the well-known fact that the Mufti of Jerusalem and other Arab leaders were calling for a Holy War of annihilation and that it is common, even today, for Arab leaders to say one thing in public forums (especially in English) and another thing in Arabic. And back then, it was far more common for people all over the world, including major Western figures to make overt antisemitic comments (not to mention that killing people who are encroaching on your homeland is universally considered OK, i.e., Azzam's statement was not that extreme). After all, how else would you explain Hitler's rise to power while spewing out vicious antisemitism and how, to Hitler's surprise, it was so easily, and eagerly converted into genocide?
My Israeli sources tell me that the cleric in this video, for example, is a major religious figure. He gave this talk on Palestinian Authority TV (!) while the Palestinians had supposedly abandoned their goal of destroying Israel (and Israelis) and were negotiating for peaceful coexistence. You can't expect the Israelis to take seriously the notion that the Palestinians are committed to peaceful coexistence while the young men in the audience in the video (and at home watching their TVs) are being indoctrinated with this hateful drivel. (If you look at the video and don't want to watch the whole thing, be sure to catch the very end.)
The point is that this stuff goes on all the time, on all sides of armed conflicts. We have videos today and only the few references of Assam's statement in the past because video is now ubiquitous, and because the linked video was filmed for dissemination via TV. The research some of you did on this issue indicates it is true, or at least in the range of truth certainty of the average factoid in the Wikipedia. Kriegman 6:26 UTC, September 23, 2005
Actually, my concern about the quotation, and quotations in general, goes far beyond the use of this one from Azzam. In this particular case the quotation is ambiguous and the context that would allow an analysis is lacking because no one at all seems to know where it's from. However, the more serious issue is that quotations such as these are being used as a substitute for an analysis of actual policies and actual events as illustrated by the original source material. The quotation does not reflect Arab goals or strategies. Illustrations are being used in Wikipedia in the same way. Take the article on the Six-Day War, for example. It contains a picture of a "1964 Jordanian postal stamp depicting their territorial ambitions", but this has nothing at all to do with Jordan's actual goals or strategy in the 1967 war. -- Ian Pitchford 12:10, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Unfortunately, evidence is lacking here. Again, dealing specifically with the Azzam quotation, the interpretation is credible. Whether it's accurate or not, or whether Azzam actually said those words, I don't know. I do know that it's of no great significance in understanding the events that took place. The same is true of the picture of a 1964 postage stamp: it doesn't help us to understand Jordan's goals or actions. These and other quotations and images are being used for propaganda effect, not to enlighten. -- Ian Pitchford 13:38, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Yes, but not in isolation. Also it was a real speech by a significant leader whose policies were realized in a series of wars. -- Ian Pitchford 21:48, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
Hi folks,
I am very interested in the 1947-1949 Arab-Israeli War and want to learn more about it. Wikipedia has helped me very much in this regard. I do, however, have one question regarding this particular conflict. My question is as follows:
Was there organized fighting BETWEEN Arabs during the course of the 1947-1949 Arab-Israeli War? Please let me know if there was. Thanks.
Best wishes,
Albert
Thanks for the info.
Best wishes,
Albert
", while China broadly backed the Arab claims" Which China? Was it nationalist china (today Taiwan) or Red China (mostly referred as China today)?
Since they had their own civil war at that time it's not clear who was the supporter of the arab side. 213.191.70.226 12:20, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
I have added a passage describing that in some instances British army deserters actually assisted in attacks on Jews. This is not very often disputed anymore and I provided references and an external link at the bottom.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg 06:10, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
I have read other sources which stated there were other instances of deserters involvement in attacks, I believe the source was the "Jewish Virtual Library" which really isn't all that biased. In any case I have changed the passage to -"In fact in one case (the Ben Yehuda Street bombing) British deserters actually assisted in an attack on Jews".- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg 11:22, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
I have changed the table to reflect the growth in the number of Arab soldiers throughtout the war. Currently it looks like the Jews outnumbered the arabs by about 4:1 by Dec. 1948 which wasn't the case. If someone can find a reliable estimate for their troop strength at the end of the war I would be grateful.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg 08:54, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
The removal of the quotation (see the exchange in the "British Involvement" section above) seemed arbitrary and the deleter did not respond to any of these points:
In that same discussion above, I concluded:
I waited several days to give the deleter an opportunity to respond to any of these points. Other than a facetious sarcastic comment, there has been virtually no response to this complete set of points.
For all of these reasons, I placed the quotation back in the article. While one could argue that the article may need editing to discuss this quotation and give it a more balanced presentation, it simply cannot be ignored and left out of an aritcle claiming to limn a full picture of human understanding and belief about this phenomenon. Kriegman 12:40, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Additional note: Since Benny Morris---who has been reviled by Jewish authors as a biased, pro-Arab revisionist---seems to be respected as an objective observer in this forum, though he did not comment specifically about this particular quotation, in contrast to Zero's characterization of the Mufti (he "was an educated extremist and not an intemperate fanatic") consider Morris's words on the Mufti: