This page is within the scope of WikiProject India, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of
India-related topics. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page.IndiaWikipedia:WikiProject IndiaTemplate:WikiProject IndiaIndia articles
This page is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a
list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the
full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles
Vaibhav, Purandare (22 August 2022). Shivaji: India' Great Warrior King. p. 53.
ISBN9789391165505. is a popular history written by a
journalist with no history training, which is inadequate for a subject that is both controversial and has received immense scholarly coverage. Also the writing is pretty fanciful as in (afaik, there are no known Mughal accounts of this battle, so the Mughal thoughts and POV are likely simply made up)
But the Mughal force wasn’t unduly worried; there was utter quiet in the woods, and no enemy anywhere in sight. Suddenly, when Kartalab’s men had least expected it, there was an eerie rustling in the trees on both sides, and the Marathas appeared as if out of nowhere, showering arrows and firing their muskets. Taken aback, the Mughal side and its leaders fought valiantly, but the Marathas pounded their positions and made flight impossible. Amid the frenzied fighting, the earth turned a flaming red in the blood of the dead and the wounded.
The first histories, termed bakhars, and written in Marathi by Brahmin eulogists, were the product of the late seventeenth century to the mid-eighteenth century. The current consensus is that much of the genre was hagiographical and often confused in dating and placing events. Nevertheless, the best of this literature - the Shabasad Bakhar and the 91-Kalami Bakhar - is important both for the facts and the tone of the heroic and tragic events which form the basis of the popular history of Maharashtra. Unfortunately, many of the statements of even these two most reliable bakhars have found their way into scholarly writing without careful use of corroborating evidence.
And besides sourcing issues, the draft has lots of statements that are unsupported by even the cited sources. For example, the battle date (Sardesai dates it to 24 Jan 1661, which again I'll take with a pinch of salt); the claim that "Shivaji himself attacked the enemy in the rear"; the POV claim in wikipedia's voice that "Shivaji as the man of valour had own motto to not harm unarmed man and woman" etc. And some unparseable sentences such as "Shaista Khan ordered his... against Maratha Empire." A
rewrite is needed.
Abecedare (
talk) 16:10, 12 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Besides being another popular history by a non-expert and generic publisher, it is also a
WP:CIRCULAR ref. Its description of the battle is at least in part apparently copied from
the 2012 version of the wikipedia article. There are tons of such books churned out regularly (
here's another one) given the immense following Shivaji has in the state of Maharashtra.
Abecedare (
talk) 16:28, 12 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Can we move it to the article mainspace? Considering that this event has its notability (though it lacks contemporary sources as only Shivbharat talks about this event) also the issue of peacock terms can be addressed with neutral terms and removing non
WP:RS sources. And citing more reliable sources like
Shivaji His Life and Times. would be better. Apart from this I don't think it has any other drawbacks
Sudsahab (
talk) 09:02, 7 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Manpower
Mughal manpower in the conflict is unknown. It is not mentioned by any of the reliable and conserved sources. It is often misleading.
Ajayraj890 (
talk) 17:29, 13 July 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Ajayraj890I have at least two reliable sources mentioning Mughal strength in this battle so kindly don't mislead or start a conflict of interest for your external purposes
Melechha (
talk) 22:34, 13 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Two reliable sources? There is no redirect to the sources first of all. And find the oldest source you could find about this event and cite them. The event took place in 17th century and the sources you have mentioned are of 20th or 21st century. Moreover, none of them are independent sources. The source that have cited haven't cited from where they refered for the information.
Ajayraj890 (
talk) 01:24, 14 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Remove the image that you have used here. It doesn't represent the event. I just found out that it was made by yourself. So remove it else I would be have to inform an
administrator.
Ajayraj890 (
talk) 01:27, 14 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Can you just elaborate why I can't use this image? I mean it was available online I ain't even made it and it's representing the events happened after the battle of Umberkhind.
Melechha (
talk) 11:59, 14 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Again I remind you that the 'strength' mentioned in the infobox doesn't cite any reliable sources. One of the source shows error and other one can't be considered as a reliable source. It is not redirecting to any pages, it is written in 2022. I have an advice for you. If the source you have mentioned here is based on other inscriptions, if it is older, the book must have given the reference in itself. Cite that reference. If the book doesn't cite any source in itself, we should remove the strength tag. The reason why I am saying this is, one of the sources cited in the older version of the article's source was wikipedea itself.
Ajayraj890 (
talk) 02:01, 15 July 2023 (UTC)reply
I have cited a source for the Mughal strength check it now.
Melechha (
talk) 22:28, 8 August 2023 (UTC)reply
Yes. But that source does not mentions any battle? Was there a battle or was that just a confrontation?
Ajayraj890 (
talk) 13:56, 9 August 2023 (UTC)reply
April 2024
@
Sudsahab, before working on this article again, I suggest you to read the Battle of Umberkhind section at
[1]. Also, pinging @
Abecedare.
Imperial[AFCND] 08:08, 7 April 2024 (UTC)reply