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This is the discussion page for good article nominations (GAN) and the good articles process in general. To ask a question or start a discussion about the good article nomination process, click the Add topic link above. Please check and see if your question may already be answered; click the link to the Frequently asked questions below or search the Archives below. If you are here to discuss concerns with a specific review, please consider discussing things with the reviewer first before posting here.

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I nominated Merchant's House Museum to GAN back in October. A few hours ago, V.B.Speranza reviewed the nomination and passed it with few comments. With gratitude to V.B.Speranza for taking the review up, unfortunately, the review seems very cursory. For example, I do not think the sources were adequately spot-checked.

As such, I would like to request a second opinion for this GAN. – Epicgenius ( talk) 22:54, 1 April 2024 (UTC) reply

I'm familiar with this user's editing and find they have a poor grasp of the GAN process. I would second the request for a second opinion. Trainsandotherthings ( talk) 01:10, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply

A second opinion would be somewhat a misnomer here, the review is checklist so any second opinioner would be performing effectively an entire review. If there is no agreement by the reviewer to return to GA1 then opening a GA2 (with the same nomination date) would be better than a second opinion request. CMD ( talk) 02:01, 2 April 2024 (UTC) reply

We had quite a few cases recently of this issue, including two checkbox reviews of the article Arithmetic. The solution in those case was usually to declare the reviews invalid (violation of WP:GAN/I#R3) and send the article back to the nomination pool. Phlsph7 ( talk) 07:49, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply

That will probably be the path here, although it has been just under a week and the reviewer has not edited much in that time. Currently the article promotion was not completed on a technical level, so it's a simple template reset. CMD ( talk) 13:21, 7 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Talk:Wii U/GA2 should be also delisted. That article is huge and a lot of the sources were still not used and only minor problems that were brought before being passed immediately. 2001:4455:3AA:B000:258A:2817:BA68:E8D ( talk) 01:33, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Regarding Good Articles, is there any requirement for reviewers to consider a recent AfD, particularly if the AfD was contentious and resulted in a no consensus close, or is the assessment purely based on the GA criteria? Thanks! Dfadden ( talk) 08:55, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply

There's nothing in WP:GA? suggesting an article's notability is relevant to its review. ——Serial Number 54129 12:31, 6 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Thanks for that. I did find clarification in the link! Dfadden ( talk) 10:28, 9 April 2024 (UTC) reply

I have refurbished an invisible part of ChristieBot that keeps track of all GAs back to around 2006, including failures and GAs that have lost that status (either via GAR or promotion to FA). Currently the "GAs" number on the GAN page only counts successful nominations. I could change it to include all historical promotions, or all historical nominations. I think the former at least would be appropriate, and there's a reasonable case for the latter. Any opinions? Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 01:57, 9 April 2024 (UTC) reply

What is the difference between "successful nominations" and "historical promotions"? CMD ( talk) 02:52, 9 April 2024 (UTC) reply

That would be interesting information, but I am not sure we should display it on the GAN page. It might have the effect of shaming people for having a lot of old GAs and not many recent reviews. I'm wondering whether we should rather display something like rolling 5 year noms and reviews. — Kusma ( talk) 07:06, 9 April 2024 (UTC) reply

@CMD: That was poorly phrased on my part; I meant to distinguish three numbers:

1. The number of times a user has nominated an article for GA regardless of outcome;
2. The number of articles a user has had promoted to GA;
3. The number of articles a user has had promoted that are still GAs.

@Kusma, currently the GAN page shows #3 for each user; I'm suggesting it should show #1 or #2 instead. Wouldn't the effect you're concerned about be an issue now, if it is an issue? Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 10:12, 9 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Ah, for some reason I thought you were talking about adding more old GAs. Ignore that (it is an issue that might be worth addressing separately).

I think #2 would be more appropriate than #3 if we want to show "skill", while #1 shows "workload caused". Personally I prefer #2 as it is weird not to count GAs that have become FAs later. — Kusma ( talk) 10:39, 9 April 2024 (UTC) reply

I agree that #2 would be better than #3, and I've had enough queries from various editors to make it clear that #2 is what they would have expected anyway, so I don't think there would be any objections to switching to #2. As you say, #1 represents work caused, so it does fit the original idea of the G/R ratio better than #2. It would have the effect (for those reviewers who look at the ratio when deciding what to review) of making the R/G ratio worse for nominators who have frequent fails. At the moment there are no negative consequences of a GA fail to point to, but if we use #1 people might start objecting to procedural fails (e.g. abandoned reviews) as it would harm their ratio. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 10:53, 9 April 2024 (UTC) reply

#2 is preferable to #1. More intuitive, and the G/R ratio was meant to be a nudge rather than a guiding principle. CMD ( talk) 11:01, 9 April 2024 (UTC) reply

I agree. If nobody objects I'll make the change to #2 in the next few days. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 11:22, 9 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Also agreed, that sounds like a good improvement. Thank you for the update! — Ganesha811 ( talk) 16:52, 9 April 2024 (UTC) reply

I likewise agree. #3 is somewhat nonsensical as a measure. #2 reflects experience with writing (or, admittedly more accurately, nominating) articles that are up to WP:Good article standards. I think using #1 is a bad idea as it creates incentives related to failing nominations—in both directions: some reviewers might be inclined to fail nominations more frequently to affect others' statistics, while others might be disinclined to fail nominations to not affect the statistics (either by not reviewing the nominations at all or by putting in an outsized effort to make sure the nomination can be passed). That failed nominations do not impact nominators' statistics is, I think, a feature rather than a bug. TompaDompa ( talk) 20:45, 9 April 2024 (UTC) reply

I recently reached out to SafariScribe (previously Otuọcha) regarding the reviews they've opened, a total of 22 over the last four weeks:

Completed:

• Talk:Il dio vagabondo/GA1
• Talk:Clean (2022 film)/GA2
• Talk:Migration (2023 film)/GA1 (failed for copyvio, but the copyvio revdel request was declined because it was backwards copy)
• Talk:Jacob Elordi/GA1
• Talk:Austin Wolf/GA1
• Talk:Dahiru Musdapher/GA1
• Talk:Chronicles from the Land of the Happiest People on Earth/GA1

Open:

• Talk:Maybe You're the Problem/GA1
• Talk:To Wong Foo, Thanks for Everything! Julie Newmar/GA1
• Talk:John Sterling (American football)/GA1
• Talk:Frank Butler (American football)/GA1
• Talk:Jug Bennett/GA1
• Talk:Merle Zuver/GA1
• Talk:The Skeptical Environmentalist/GA1
• Talk:Pure Japanese/GA1
• Talk:Sam Bahadur (film)/GA1
• Talk:An Act of Conscience/GA1
• Talk:Hounds (film)/GA1
• Talk:Apocalypse Clown/GA1
• Talk:Jude Law/GA1
• Talk:Dwayne Cooper/GA1
• Talk:Lashauwn Beyond/GA1

I've expressed my concerns that this is an unreasonable number of reviews to be doing at once and that they may not be fluent enough in the language to pursue reviewing at this time, but they disagreed. As I said to them, I appreciate their drive and I think they could do a lot of good for Wikipedia, but this isn't the best way to go about it. Previous discussions at their talk page ( permalink) and mine ( permalink). Thebiguglyalien ( talk) 08:06, 9 April 2024 (UTC) reply

I've noticed them, but as they haven't actually abandoned a review yet, I haven't engaged. I would suggest that they try to pick up reviews one at a time though. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 10:23, 9 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Hm, the grammar in their replies to you is not encouraging... -- asilvering ( talk) 00:57, 11 April 2024 (UTC) reply

And it's reflected in the copyedits they're asking for in reviews, which is why I was hoping this could be addressed. Thebiguglyalien ( talk) 08:39, 11 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Thebiguglyalien, I agree. I would recommend all of their open reviews be reset. All they seem to have great intentions, I think there is a lot of learning to do before they are able to go through this type of reviewing process successfully. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 14:44, 18 April 2024 (UTC) reply

I see this page now says, "Warning: nomination is malformed -- Status indicates review has started but there is no review page" re: Lashauwn Beyond. I am hoping someone can fix this, so the review can get picked up. Was a bit disappointed with the result of the Dwayne Cooper GAN ( Talk:Dwayne Cooper/GA1), but oh well! Thanks for any help with the reset here. --- Another Believer _{( Talk)} 16:40, 18 April 2024 (UTC) reply

SafariScribe appears to have realised they have bitten off more than they could chew with Jude Law, Pure Japanese and Lashauwn Beyond, and requested to delete those reviews without correctly fixing the talk pages, which I have now done. I don't quite know what they were insinuating with "glorious contributions" at Talk:Dwayne Cooper/GA1, but that was definitely a sub-par review; there is in any case no prejudice against immediately renominating. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 16:51, 18 April 2024 (UTC) reply

 Done --- Another Believer _{( Talk)} 16:55, 18 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Another Believer, @ Thebiguglyalien, @ Gonzo fan2007, @ AirshipJungleman29, @ Asilvering, thank you all for such an impactful assessment, it'do add to my person like I always say. However, English is my first language and I do speak it fluently, I may also have some errors in my sentences which I admit and have taken care of it—reading more books, revising my proficiency, and other self improvement works. The problem is that: typo via keyboard, speed typing in mobile, feeling less concerned to the flow of the lang because while speaking, its not usually identified in where I stay, Nigeria. I appreciate what you all discussed and 've taken record of them. In not varying worlds, there are also justifications that seems provocative. One of the things I've learnt do far is that, people changes by day, there are more to improvement as well. I will also be proud of my reviews, even though some says it's not likewise. I'm not here for any argument but addressing such cases will make Wikipedia a better place. I love to see people correct me while I taken it to heart. On civilly, reverting should be done in reviews only if he/she have discussed that with the reviewer. Like I said, no one has found fault with my review, even when I give a little still promising truth of an article. What if I was about asking a second reviewer. Lastly, I appreciate all of you and your contributions but know that It's for the best. Thanks and will needs some piece of "good" advice. For reviewing, I'm stopping for now. Regards. —  Safari Scribe ^{Edits! Talk!} 17:45, 18 April 2024 (UTC) reply

SafariScribe, you still have Talk:Maybe You're the Problem/GA1, Talk:An Act of Conscience/GA1, and Talk:The Skeptical Environmentalist/GA1 as ongoing reviews; are you saying that you will not complete them? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 17:48, 18 April 2024 (UTC) reply

AirshipJungleman29, please stop adding words to my mouth and understand subjectively based on ones response. Maybe you're missing 'future'. —  Safari Scribe ^{Edits! Talk!} 18:06, 18 April 2024 (UTC) reply

SafariScribe, the word "future" has not been in any of your comments. What does "For reviewing, I'm stopping for now" mean? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 18:33, 18 April 2024 (UTC) reply

AirshipJungleman29, My bad, apologies. But you are here for years and should possibly know what some editors are up to. I mean taking it slowly for now. Any advice? —  Safari Scribe ^{Edits! Talk!} 18:50, 18 April 2024 (UTC) reply

While I have been editing for a couple of years, I have not yet received mind-reading abilities. Taking it slowly is probably a good idea. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 18:52, 18 April 2024 (UTC) reply

ChristieBot adds the {{good article}} template to promoted articles, if it's not already there. It's been adding it to the front of the article, but that's incorrect; per MOS:ORDER it should be after short descriptions, DISPLAYTITLEs, and hatnotes. I've updated the bot to put the template after short descriptions and DISPLAYTITLEs, but not after the hatnotes as those are much harder to identify safely. The change appears to be working. If you see any problems, please let me know; or if you can think of a reliable way to identify hatnotes in the article's wikitext then please tell me! Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 14:09, 10 April 2024 (UTC) reply

The GA criteria say not to go into unnecessary detail, but how much is "unnecessary"? Do excessive images count towards this metric? I am looking specifically at Angels in Neon Genesis Evangelion (promoted 2022), which has many explanatory images for minor details related to each angel, like a diagram of apoptosis to accompany text suggesting one of the angels "undergoes apoptosis"; or a diagram of the Dirac Sea plus a picture of Dirac to help describe the physical and geometric patterns of one particular angel's "AT Field". AFAICT the textual relevance supporting these images is sourced only to offline explanatory booklets from DVD releases and other material produced by people involved in the show. In fact, I'd say a substantial majority of the article is sourced to such primary and/or non-independent sources, which I guess isn't specifically against the GA criteria, but...

Is this really what a Good Article is supposed to look like for manga? JoelleJay ( talk) 21:59, 10 April 2024 (UTC) reply

"Unnecessary detail" refers to coatrack articles, where the article gets away from its nominal subject, and instead gives more attention to one or more connected but tangential subjects. As to the second point, there is nothing wrong with the majority of an article being sourced to such primary and/or non-independent sources. Such sources are often preferred, being authorative.New editors sometimes confuse the requirement for independent sources to establish notability with what is required for sourcing. The article in question is fine. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:27, 10 April 2024 (UTC) reply

the majority of an article being sourced to such primary and/or non-independent sources.

Policy definitely does not agree with this...

Do not base an entire article on primary sources, and be cautious about basing large passages on them. and Wikipedia articles should be based on  reliable, published  secondary sources, and to a lesser extent, on  tertiary sources and  primary sources. and Base articles on reliable,  independent, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy.

I'm not talking about notability here. I'm talking about a 150kb article on particular characters in a manga franchise that goes into extreme detail based only on primary and/or non-independent in-universe sources. How do we achieve NPOV if the only sources talking about particular material are directly from the producers of that material? JoelleJay ( talk) 23:53, 10 April 2024 (UTC) reply

@ JoelleJay, can you point out a particular sentence or two that you find objectionable on the grounds that it shouldn't use primary sources? I had a quick look and nothing jumped out at me. What I notice more is some stuff that looks WP:SYNTHy at a glance, eg, the discussions of the meanings of various names. Again just at a glance, I do think there's a bit of a focus issue here. I don't know that it's "unnecessary detail" so much as it is a list article that has some non-list stuff grafted onto it. -- asilvering ( talk) 00:50, 11 April 2024 (UTC) reply

It's not any particular sentences, it's the whole thing. I realize that the GA criteria do not say anything about primary or non-independent sources, but surely there's a common sense aspect to this where it's worse for 10.5 thousand words of detail to be sourced almost entirely to the manga itself or other companion materials by its creators rather than to secondary analysis by people with no conflict of interest. Policy is very clear that basing an article around primary or non-independent sources is not acceptable. Not to mention we're AGFing that all of that primary and non-independent sourcing, which mostly appears to be offline and in Japanese, actually makes the real-world connections we're presenting in wikivoice and that they are accurately summarized. Not to mention many of the passages that aren't cited to people directly involved in Eva are interpretations by random bloggers...

I'm bringing this up now because I'm in the midst of revisiting an article I was involved in delisting last year for being excessively detailed and this seems much worse. Pinging @ AirshipJungleman29 and @ Trainsandotherthings who also weighed in on that discussion since I've been interpreting this as analogous to the "Keith Miller" series if those articles were instead based largely on his team's own reports and memoirs. JoelleJay ( talk) 08:50, 11 April 2024 (UTC) reply

I think the article that prompted you to start this discussion is a good example of someone with a pet interest who decided it needed an extremely detailed article (or in this case, many someones because this particular show is quite popular). If it were up to me, articles like this would get ported off to some Fandom Wiki where they belong. There are certainly secondary sources present in the article, but so much of it is based on primary sourcing that it makes me wonder if the article should even exist.

Sure, most of this website is just people writing about their special interests (and I'm no exception), but that can't trump the requirements for secondary sourcing, summary style, and avoiding WP:NOT situations. There are sources to support everything in this article, but how many of those sources are about the angels in the show as a topic? I've said before, I could write an extremely detailed article on everything the New York, New Haven and Hartford Railroad did in a given year, but it would just be cobbling together things from a bunch of sources, none of which would show that the New York, New Haven and Hartford Railroad in a given year is itself a notable topic. Perhaps the most infamous example of this is the Tolkien madness that has seen more GAs written on things like Tolkien and Trees than we have on wars or famous scientists or leaders.

At the same time, at least they are well sourced and not filled with OR. Perhaps we need to pick and choose our battles. While I don't like articles such as the one that prompted this discussion, I'd take something well sourced over articles filled with unsourced cruft such as this. Trainsandotherthings ( talk) 01:51, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Thanks, @ Trainsandotherthings, @ Thebiguglyalien, @ Chipmunkdavis, @ Asilvering, @ TompaDompa. Do you think having so much(*) of the article sourced to primary and non-independent sources at least warrants "too detailed" and "third-party" tags? I also find it hard to believe we can assume that the literally hundreds of citations that are inaccessible and non-English are accurately being summarized. The extremely brief review didn't mention spot checking any sources, let alone any offline Japanese ones. I would expect a lot more analysis in general to go into a GA for a 150kb article with nearly 500 sources...

(*) Out of 471 sources, I count 243 to completely non-independent entities: 87 to Kadokawa Shoten (publisher); 5 more directly to Gainax or Gainax-controlled media; 21 to the Platinum Booklet and other "Booklet" DVD extras (some weirdly using the "cite journal" template without filling the "journal" parameter); 7 to GroundWorks (NGE publisher); 4 to Fujimi Shobo (NGE publisher); 6 to Khara (NGE film studio); 18 to NGE "Laserdisc" and "Blue Ray" Encyclopedias (DVD extras); 17 to other "Collector's Edition" Encyclopedias from the creators; 25 to Evangelion crewperson Poggio; 28 to Evangelion editor Cannarsi; 1 to Evangelion crewperson Asari; 2 to NGE artist Sadamoto; 4 to NGE editor Horn; 2 to other Kadokawa employees; 5 to Evangelion, Dynit (NGE studio), and Famitsu App (owned by Kadokawa) websites; 1 2 directly to Evangelion media; 2 to press releases; 1 2 3 4 (Studio Voice interview of Anno) 5 6 7 8 to primary, non-independent Q&A interview transcripts.

There are additionally 90 to Evangelion Chronicle from Sony Magazines (commercial products supervised/endorsed by Gainax); 1 (9 individual cites) 2 3 to non-expert blogs; and 2 to a user-generated ranking site. Not to mention numerous dubiously-qualified contributors like
1 2 and many clickbaity listicles. The independent secondary RS coverage is almost entirely constrained to the sections after In other media; very little is used for the lengthy descriptions of the angels. JoelleJay ( talk) 01:43, 15 April 2024 (UTC) reply

The non-expert blogs and clickbaity listicles are definitely a problem pretty much regardless of context. I also find that review very curt given the article at hand. For things like the descriptions of the angels, I'd expect a lot of primary sources in there (who is a better source for "what did the creators intend?" but the creator?), but I would worry if there are neutrality concerns (eg inappropriate wikivoice, under-attributed quotes, etc) or WP:OR involved. Having skimmed it, I think the latter is probably an issue. -- asilvering ( talk) 02:57, 15 April 2024 (UTC) reply

I can't say I disagree with the concerns you've raised here. I'd probably vote in favor of delisting based on all of the issues you've identified. Trainsandotherthings ( talk) 20:02, 15 April 2024 (UTC) reply

GA requires compliance with WP:OR, which includes WP:PRIMARY. WP:NPOV also encourages (though does not strictly require) independent sources per WP:BESTSOURCES. I haven't read the article, but if the excessive detail is WP:FANCRUFT or could reasonably be tagged with {{ Overly detailed}}, then most reviewers would expect rewrites or removals. I don't think I've ever seen images or diagrams described as a criterion 3 issue. Thebiguglyalien ( talk) 08:36, 11 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Agree with this, although I note the lead image licence should be updated following the page move. CMD ( talk) 11:17, 11 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Let's remember that while primary and/or non-independent sources can be used for WP:Verification, they do not establish WP:WEIGHT of viewpoints or WP:ASPECTS. TompaDompa ( talk) 15:21, 11 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Yes, BALASP is exactly what I feel is most in danger of being violated here. If the only people writing about these extreme details are themselves contributors to the NGE universe (or at the very least supervised by its creators) and have a direct commercial interest in promoting NGE, then how can we have a neutral summary of real-world engagement with the material? JoelleJay ( talk) 17:15, 11 April 2024 (UTC) reply

My read through is it's a very thorough, researched article that absolutely does not belong on Wikipedia. It's a very useful example of why you need secondary sources to lead the path on due weight for a topic or parts of a topic because if you just use secondary sources to argue notability, you enable breathless and well-nigh indecipherable fancruft to fill articles. If reliable secondary sources can't be used in place of most of the primary sources, it suggests that aspect isn't important enough to spend time on, certainly not thousands of words' worth. The article absolutely should be delisted, and then it needs to be gutted to establish if it actually meets notability or this is something that should be covered briefly in the parent article. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 12:24, 16 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Speaking of fancruft, if anyone wants to start removing chunks of the article, it would probably be a good idea to copy some of the text to the eva wiki, since it does appear to be well-researched, just out of scope (and maybe even notability) for wikipedia. -- asilvering ( talk) 15:26, 16 April 2024 (UTC) reply

 I have opened a GAR for the article. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 15:54, 16 April 2024 (UTC) reply

This is an enhancement suggested by Prhartcom; I've been working on the code this week so it would be a good time for me to add this functionality if we want it. The idea is that if the bot transcludes review2, it should delete the transclusion of review1, if it's present. I am a bit concerned that the bot wouldn't be able to tell if there was any other trace of the prior review on the article talk page. Perhaps it would be better if one of the bots that creates/updates {{ Article history}} removed the old GA reviews once they're linked in article history? Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 23:46, 10 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Why would we want to remove old conversations about a subject? Lee Vilenski ^{( talk • contribs)} 11:25, 11 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Yeah, I don't really see the point. What if a GA gets reassessed and then nominated again? Does the first review still get deleted? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 12:20, 11 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Please don't. Transcluded GA nominations are sometimes the only on-topic content on article talk pages; it is fine to archive them when the talk page becomes full, but simply removing them just makes the talk page less useful. — Kusma ( talk) 12:25, 11 April 2024 (UTC) reply

(ec) Prhartcom hasn't edited for a few days so they may not comment immediately, but the example they gave when they requested this was this rev of Talk:Chris Rock–Will Smith slapping incident. A visitor to that talk page would probably scroll to the first GA transclusion and think it was the current one. As I said I don't think it's a good idea to just remove all traces of the old GA, but the bot could change an old transclusion to just a link along with some text that made it clear this was a superseded review. (I don't think the bot can build the article history template, which would probably be the best approach; that's very complicated to do.) However, even changing the transclusion like that might have some negatives -- for example it would probably prevent bots like DeadBeefBot which does implement AH from picking up the old GA and adding it. (Post ec): I agree it should not be removed with no trace left behind, but I don't see a problem with avoiding the transclusion so long as it's easy to see that there was a prior GA. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 12:30, 11 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Our talk page model is "newest information at the bottom", which is old-fashioned, but once a user understands that, they know where to look. I don't think a transcluded GA review is in any way different from other information on the talk page, and I don't think transclusions should be removed. If you want to make it clearer that one GA review is closed and the other is open, it is better to use closing templates than to hide relevant information. During a new GA review, previous GA reviews need to be as easily findable as possible so it is easy to check whether issues mentioned in old reviews have been addressed. — Kusma ( talk) 13:04, 11 April 2024 (UTC) reply

I am of the opinion that in general, GA review transclusions should not be removed from talk pages without simultaneously being added to talk page archives. TompaDompa ( talk) 15:16, 11 April 2024 (UTC) reply

If an {{ Article history}} entry is made for the previous GA review, I don't see any problem with removing the transclusion of it, since a link to the review will still be accessible from the Article history box near the top of the page (though you'd want to also remove the {{ GA}} or {{ FailedGA}} from that prior review). As noted, this may not be a job for ChristieBot... BlueMoonset ( talk) 21:51, 11 April 2024 (UTC) reply

I'm not sure a link in a template is a suitable alternative for a long and detailed discussion of an articles quality. I don't really know why we'd want to hide it. If it gets archived along with other discussions (due to time), that's fine, but removing it because it's in a template seems a bit OTT. Lee Vilenski ^{( talk • contribs)} 09:31, 12 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Thanks to Mike for raising this and of course thanks to him for ChristieBot. I can see where the consensus is going, and it makes sense: Do not remove the old GA transclusions unless they are added to the talk page archives. If Mike were to add that enhancement, it sounds like we approve. If he doesn't want to add that enhancement and leave the old GA reviews on the talk page, it sounds like we are fine with that. Prhartcom ( talk) 11:40, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

I'm not sure why we'd need ChristieBot to do this. The old transclusions should be archived the same as other threads. Are they not getting archived? Lee Vilenski ^{( talk • contribs)} 11:42, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

I suspect they won't get archived because they don't have a visible timestamp. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 14:17, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Perhaps that's the part we need to come up with a technical solution to fix. Maybe we should actually subst the review when it's been promoted/failed so it can be archived. Lee Vilenski ^{( talk • contribs)} 14:47, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

A 1 month user opened a GA review and has no idea what to do. 2001:4455:3AA:B000:D0C5:47BA:7023:4E1A ( talk) 12:33, 11 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Hello! I would be happy to address any specific concerns you have with my ongoing review. I have been carefully following the instructions, but if there is something glaring I have missed, I would greatly appreciate your feedback. I have also contacted a good article mentor to make sure my final review is in line with expectations.

Regarding my experience, I understand that I am a fairly new user so if it is truly inappropriate for me to be conducting a good article review I would certainly be open to changing the reviewer. Furthermore, if newer users should not review good article nominees I would appreciate your help in improving the instructions to make that clear. It was not clear to me and I suspect it would not be clear to other new users.

SyntaxZombie ( talk) SyntaxZombie ( talk) 16:02, 11 April 2024 (UTC) reply

@ SyntaxZombie: You checked boxes, but how are we to see that you actually checked what the boilerplate points you to? The article uses four photos. Are they each properly licensed? How did you run the COPYVIO check? This article seems to rely entirely on online sources that are not paywalled. Do each of them actually support what the content asserts? All of these and more are required per WP:GACR. You can find more detailed directions at WP:RGA, which I suspect you didn't bother to read, let alone follow. If you actually checked these items you would probably find problems for the nominator to address, like MoS. If you don't understand MoS, then why are you reviewing a good article? This is QPQ for your GA nom? Please examine any of my GA reviews to see what right looks like. Chris Troutman ( talk) 16:22, 11 April 2024 (UTC) reply

I don't see how this tone is helpful in teaching a new user—whose contributions to this point reflect quite well on them—how to use Wikipedia. Thebiguglyalien ( talk) 19:47, 11 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Hey! Thank you for joining us in reviewing good articles. Don't worry too much about it, I'm sure you will become a great reviewer after a few small adjustments (and after gaining some experience, of course). The table you used in your review is supposed to be supplementary, used to summarize the review. It sounds like you did follow the instructions, but right now other editors have no way to actually check that and it may seem like you just randomly checked boxes. If you were to express your thought process on the review page it would help greatly to clear up the confusion. It doesn't have to be extremely detailed.

Another thing people expect to see in a review is "spot check", a review of sources used in the article. But it looks like you already know that. As for the number of sources you should check, I don't believe there's a specific number or percentage required. In theory, an article doesn't need to reach a certain arbitrary number of sources used, as long as the provided sources support everything. Say, the article could be based on a couple of super detailed books. However, usually articles have numerous sources. As far as I know, you are supposed to check the ones that you would actually question. Sales numbers, chart peaks numbers for music albums, some specific facts, dates, maybe some of the quotes if there are any. And if I run out of these, I just pick a few more random refs to check, until I reach 10ish. Some editors do more, but for good articles you don't need to check everything. Anyway, good luck! I hope to see you again in the future. AstonishingTunesAdmirer 連絡 21:36, 11 April 2024 (UTC) reply

It's perfectly appropriate for a new user to review GANs. The skills required - careful reading, following instructions, decent writing skills, communication - are in no way exclusive to long-time wikipedians. If you are carefully following the instructions, you'll be fine. -- asilvering ( talk) 22:17, 11 April 2024 (UTC) reply

I am confident that SyntaxZombie can review this appropriately as well as take The Prince (play) through the nomination process, given some support. SyntaxZombie contacting a mentor was the right action and the IP volunteer bringing it to this forum was not. The short of it is that while some articles already meet all of the GA criteria at the time of nomination, it is good practice to provide several sentences of feedback: (1) because many editors primarily go through this process in order to improve articles; (2) so that scrutinisers can distinguish a thorough review from an inadequate review. Everyone develops their own style: mine is always changing, even after 50 or so reviews, and my latest idea is to use a "Strengths" section like here to really spell out how I have checked every criterion.

Also, you can always find some wording improvements, and almost always find some verifiability issues by reading the sources. (Take a look at RSP, too, which often lists some of the publications used as references. In the case of Maui (Moana) you find that all except BuzzFeed and The Times of India are generally reliable, and you might conclude that those two are appropriate in context for this particular article.) — Bilorv ( talk) 00:32, 12 April 2024 (UTC) reply

They've reached out to a mentor, [1] and I've left a message on their talk page offering to help if that mentor is unavailable. [2] Rjjⁱⁱⁱ ( talk) 04:08, 12 April 2024 (UTC) reply

I have seen that some article nominations require reviewers to do a so-called spot-check. My knowledge about this means that the reviewer may check the verifiability of the sources and whether they match the written facts. However, sometimes the spot-check may be referred to arrange the format sources properly.

I wonder if some users may have a different opinion about "spot-check". Dedhert.Jr ( talk) 05:34, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

"However, sometimes the spotcheck may be refer to distribute the format sources." I'm not sure what this means. Can you clarify, @ Dedhert.Jr? ♠ PMC♠ (talk) 05:35, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

@ PMC I haven't copyedited the words. Done. Dedhert.Jr ( talk) 05:38, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

The spot check has nothing to do with source formatting and nitpicky stuff like that. (In fact, correct source formatting isn't required for GA; per the GACR, as long as the citation points you to the source, it's sufficient.)

The spot check refers to the first thing you said - whether or not the source says what our article says it does. ♠ PMC♠ (talk) 05:50, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Slightly more relevant is that we require all reviews to have a spot check, where a reviewer takes a selection of sources and checks that what is in the article is adequately backed up by the sources given. Lee Vilenski ^{( talk • contribs)} 11:43, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

I've created a GA statistics page that takes an editor's name as input and returns some summary information about their interactions with GA. It shows all their nominations and reviews, and gives a summary of their statistics -- number promoted, number that are still GAs, and the review-to-GA ratio. Please let me know about any bugs or enhancement suggestions. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 14:20, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Thanks for creating this tool, Mike. I noticed when I input my name, I'm credited for two nominations that weren't done by me. This is because I reverted some out of process promotions (see this diff) and it appears the tool thinks I was the nominator, because I was the one who made the edit restoring the nominee template, even though the real nominator's name was present within the template. Trainsandotherthings ( talk) 14:24, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Thanks for that -- the tool can get confused by things like that. I fixed the one you linked to; if you tell me what the other one is I'll fix that too. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 15:03, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

That would be 1990 San Diego Chargers season. Trainsandotherthings ( talk) 21:50, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Fixed. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 01:29, 14 April 2024 (UTC) reply

One other comment: the tool makes it look like my nominations to promotions ratio is lower than it actually is, because it is actually counting GAs later promoted to FAs against me (4 such articles in my case). Is there a way this could be accounted for by the tool? Trainsandotherthings ( talk) 14:27, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

I would consider that to be working as intended: the tool is now reporting your actual ratio of reviews to successful nominations, rather than artificially inflating it by not counting some of your nominations. This was discussed at §Using all GA nominations for the GA statistic rather than current promoted ones above. Caeciliusinhorto ( talk) 14:56, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Yes, I'm planning to make that change in the numbers on the GAN page too. I haven't done it yet so please comment at the earlier discussion if you disagree. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 15:03, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

My concern is not with the review ratio, I agree that it should reflect all nominations I've made to be fair. It's more that it makes it look like I've had 5 GAs that were delisted, when only 1 was actually delisted and the other 4 are now FAs. I'm not sure what the answer is for this. Trainsandotherthings ( talk) 22:01, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Thanks Mike!

One comment: it looks as though there's something wrong with the "Promoted GA nominations that are still GAs" field: it returns 0 for me, but it should be 21 ( Brothers Poem and Corinna are now FA). I see for your stats it instead reports that all of your GA noms are still GAs, though two ( Amazing Stories and Ghost Stories (magazine)) have since been promoted to FA. Caeciliusinhorto ( talk) 14:28, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

The numbers for my stats confused me too, but it's because two of them predate the cutoff for ChristieBot -- Space Science Fiction Magazine and John W. Campbell. That coincidentally cancels out the two that have since been promoted to FA. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 15:07, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

The "Promoted GA nominations that are still GAs" number is now fixed; it was case-sensitive and now is not. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 15:54, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Hmm, also comparing the results given against SDZeroBot's attempt, I notice that your tool misses Women in Classical Athens Caeciliusinhorto ( talk) 14:39, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

It appears about 70 GAs were not properly categorized in the database; not sure why, but I'm doing a run now that should fix them. Please let me know if you see more omissions. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 16:42, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Superb work, Mike. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 14:43, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

GA nominations: 197

Promoted GA nominations: 179

Promoted GA nominations that are still GAs: 0

GA reviews: 301

Ratio of reviews to successful nominations: 1.7

What does "Promoted GA nominations that are still GAs" actually means? I have about 150 or so that are still GAs. Lee Vilenski ^{( talk • contribs)} 14:46, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Looks like there's a bug in that calculation; I will take a look at that next. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 15:07, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Should now be fixed -- the tool was case sensitive for that value, but I've made it case-insensitive. If we ever get two users at GA whose usernames differ only in case I'll have to change it back. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 15:54, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Looks like the issue was actually that my search was "Lee Vilenski " rather than "Lee Vilenski" (mobiles tend to add additional spaces for reasons). Searching just for the username gives the correct info. In case someone else mentions it. Lee Vilenski ^{( talk • contribs)} 12:49, 14 April 2024 (UTC) reply

One small thing in the GA reviews section, the table lists the nominators as reviewers instead. -- Zoo Blazer 16:03, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Fixed. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 16:42, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

The stats for me seem incorrect.

GA nominations: 0

Promoted GA nominations: 0

Promoted GA nominations that are still GAs: 29

GA reviews: 0

Ratio of reviews to successful nominations: Infinite

Obviously, I have done GA nominations which were then promoted to have that number that are still GAs; and I have done a number of reviews. All of these were within the last 6 months, so they were surely captured by ChristieBot. Generalissima ( talk) (it/she) 17:28, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

It seems the problem is the tool sometimes gets into a state where it can't get to most of the data. I fixed the problem for now by restarting it so you should see your numbers now, but it will no doubt happen again. I'll see if I can figure out what's going on. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 17:49, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

I've got a similar issue with my stats:

• GA nominations: 0
• Promoted GA nominations: 0
• Promoted GA nominations that are still GAs: 14
• GA reviews: 0
• Ratio of reviews to successful nominations: Infinite

I tried checking PMC and Premeditated_Chaos in case the issue was with the space, or my signature, but no dice. ♠ PMC♠ (talk) 18:26, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

User:Tim O'Doherty, who also has two FA nominations to his name, asserts to have nominated 8 successful GAs and reviewed 12 GAs, some of which I have been involved with. However, according to the GA nominations page and the new GA statistics tool, it shows that Tim has neither nominated nor reviewed any successful GAs. I was hoping you, @ Mike Christie, could look into this since ChristieBot and the new GA statistics tool were developed by you. Regards, and yours faithfully. MSincccc ( talk) 06:44, 14 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Fixed -- the apostrophe in Tim's username is what was causing the issue. Usernames with apostrophes should now work correctly. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 09:45, 14 April 2024 (UTC) reply

However, it appears the bot that maintains the "still a GA" number is not recording the data correctly for users with apostrophes, so that number is still showing as zero for Tim. I've left the maintainer of that bot a message. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 10:38, 14 April 2024 (UTC) reply

@ Mike Christie: Also I recently took up Aishwarya Rai Bachchan's article for GA review. As done for other users, shouldn't it show that the article is under GA review? Regards. MSincccc ( talk) 10:18, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply

@ Mike Christie: I've had four successful GA nominations under my belt, but the tool indicates five, possibly due to the Prince George of Wales nomination being listed twice instead of once. Tim O'Doherty successfully promoted the article to GA-status, whereas AndrewPeterT abandoned the review after making just the opening comments. Regards. MSincccc ( talk) 10:16, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply

The bot decided that AndrewPeterT's review was a pass because there's no record of the outcome anywhere, and the article is currently a GA. I've added article history to the talk page and rerun the analytics for that GA, and the bot now understands it was not a promotion. Aishwarya Rai Bachchan is missing because in debugging over the last couple of days I inadvertently caused a problem for the part of the process that picks up new GAs, which is supposed to run once a day. It'll run again today; if you don't see the GA reflected in the tool's output tomorrow morning let me know and I'll take another look. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 10:58, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply

@ Mike Christie: On the project page Wikipedia talk:Good article nominations, under the Royalty, nobility, and heraldry section where it indicates that the article Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh is under review, it still displays-Review: this article is being reviewed (additional comments are welcome). (13 reviews, 0 GAs) Tim O'Doherty (talk) 13:28, 23 March 2024 (UTC) However, we are aware that Tim has 8 successful GA promotions attributed to him both from the new tool and his own record. Regards. MSincccc ( talk) 11:09, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply

That number comes from this tool, which doesn't correctly handle usernames that contain apostrophes. Per this discussion I am planning to change that number from "promoted GAs that are still GAs" to "promoted GAs regardless of whether they are still GAs"; I can provide the latter number accurately, so the number should be correct then. It'll be at least a week or two till I can make that change, though, as I'm travelling this weekend and don't want to make changes when I'm unable to fix any problems they cause. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 11:41, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply

@ Mike Christie: Adding my thanks for the creation of this tool. Looking at my stats, I see two oddities:

• It lists me as the nominator for Talk:California/GA2, and not the actual nominator. This one is confusing because I'd never edited any page associated with that GA review.
• Freetown station is listed as being promoted twice, because Talk:Freetown station/GA1 is incorrectly listed as "promoted".

Pi.1415926535 ( talk) 20:24, 15 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Both should now be fixed. I don't know why the California one was assigned to you; I reran that analytics step for that page and it corrected it. For Freetown station, part of the problem was that there was no easy way for the bot to figure out what the outcome was of the first review; there was no "Failed GA" template, for example. I added article history to the talk page and reran the analytics and that seems to have sorted it out. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 21:24, 15 April 2024 (UTC) reply

I'll be working on the tool this afternoon trying to figure it why it keeps producing zeros after a few queries. In the meantime here are the numbers for Generalissima:

• GA nominations: 33
• Promoted GA nominations: 30
• Promoted GA nominations that are still GAs: 29
• GA reviews: 29
• Ratio of reviews to successful nominations: 1.0

and for PMC:

• GA nominations: 31
• Promoted GA nominations: 30
• Promoted GA nominations that are still GAs: 14
• GA reviews: 107
• Ratio of reviews to successful nominations: 3.6

The tool will probably be mostly down this afternoon; I'll leave a note here if/when I think I've fixed it. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 18:48, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Is it possible to get a list of all GA reviews you're credited with? My personal count only has 104, I'm curious what ones I've missed ♠ PMC♠ (talk) 19:17, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

I'll leave a list on your talk page. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 20:05, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

I think the bug is fixed and the tool should now be working. Please let me know of any other issues, or if this one recurs. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 21:37, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Hi Mike, would you consider a slight tweak of the sort order? The "reviews" are sorted by nomination date, so my first review is listed at number 5 (the first five are 5-2-1-4-3). It would make more sense to sort the reviews by review date (ideally by start of the review, actually). — Kusma ( talk) 13:13, 15 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Good idea, and an easy change to make, so done. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 15:07, 15 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Great stuff, thanks, Mike Christie. Talk:Sarah Cooper/GA0 is listed in the results for me as "Nominated"; looks like there was some process issue around that review. Also, I think I messed up the template when reviewing Talk:Atul Gawande/GA1 - that should probably be updated to a fail. (I later nominated it myself Talk:Atul Gawande/GA2). Regards, BennyOnTheLoose ( talk) 21:57, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

These should now be fixed. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 15:34, 14 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Very interesting, thanks for creating this. A slight bug in my results, may have been reported above. The tool reports 19 nominations, 19 promoted nominations, and 14 that are still GAs. None of my GAs have been delisted. Three have been promoted to FA. I think the discrepancy for the other 2 is that there were abortive initial reviews, and both were promoted after GA2. That's my guess, and it's not a big deal. Mackensen (talk) 22:55, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

(Also @ Trainsandotherthings, since you raised the same question): the "still GAs" isn't meant to imply that the others were delisted; just that they're not currently listed as GAs -- in many cases this will be because they were promoted to FA, not demoted. I'll find a way to phrase this on the tool's output page to make this clearer. Mackensen, I'll have a look at the other two you mention and see if I can figure out what happened. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 01:34, 14 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Could the tool tell me which promoted GA nominations are no longer GAs (as a column in the table)? Could it even track which promoted GA nominations are neither GAs nor FAs? (Using myself as a test case the tool indicates there should be 4, of which I expect one to be the delisted The Game (mind game) and three to be the featured San Junipero, The 1975 (song) and Why Marx Was Right.) Also, I'm impressed that it seems to track page moves appropriately ( Nosedive moved to Nosedive (Black Mirror)). — Bilorv ( talk) 18:47, 14 April 2024 (UTC) reply

It's not easy to tell whether a page is FA, GA, A, B, etc; there's no single place I can look. However, SDZeroBot does keep track of which articles are currently GA, so I could try checking that and see if I can match up the article names. I might be able to search for the article names in WP:FA or the various GA pages as well. I probably won't work on this for a couple of weeks as I'll be traveling next weekend but will put it on the list. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 22:24, 14 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Promotion percentage

I thought it would be interesting to see the promotion percentage for our most prolific reviewers -- that is how many of their reviews end by promoting the article to GA. Here's the list for everyone with at least 100 reviews. This doesn't account for name changes (e.g. Malleus Fatuorum -> Eric Corbett) but I can probably fix that if I turn this into a query on the tool's webpage. I don't think there's necessarily anything negative about a very high promotion percentage -- a reviewer who picks up articles from nominators they know are very reliable might well have a promotion percentage close to 100%, for example, whereas a reviewer who makes a point of reviewing articles by inexperienced nominators (as I've done intermittently) might have an unusually low promotion percentage. Still, I think the numbers are interesting. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 16:26, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Very interesting! For comparison, what is the overall promotion rate? — Kusma ( talk) 17:33, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

43,027 passed out of 52,395 in the database; 82.1% promotion rate. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 17:46, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

In case anyone else is wondering why my percentage is so low: I don't think it's because I have unreasonably high standards, but more because I tend to pick articles to review where I can reasonably predict the outcome: either a quick fail or a relatively easy pass. I don't want to get drawn into games of whack-a-mole where I point out examples of problematic material in a nominated article, the nominator fixes those examples but not the general problem, and I have to keep finding more examples ad nauseam. For a while that was leading me to deliberately seek out nominations that could be (justifiably!) quick failed, hence my high fail rate. I think for the ones where I initiated a full review rather than a quick fail, my pass rate is much higher. — David Eppstein ( talk) 19:04, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Very interesting indeed. By my quick calculations, the mean promotion rate for our most active reviewers listed in your table is 86.3% (excluding David Eppstein pushes it up very slightly to 86.6%), and the median promotion rate for the reviewers listed is 91% – so you are marginally more likely to have your nominations promoted if it is picked up by a very active reviewer. This data doesn't let us say why that might be, but a couple of thoughts:

• Historically reviewers had relatively lower standards than today and were more prolific because reviews used to take less time, and so are disproportionately represented in the "very active reviewer" dataset (there are a lot of names which I do not recognise, or which I do recognise as no longer editing, in that dataset, so this is entirely possible)
• Very active reviewers have a better idea of which articles are going to pass (either because they recognise the nominator or they have a better preliminary assessment of how good an article is) and favour reviewing better articles
• Very active reviewers are careless and more willing to promote articles which are not at GA standards (anecdotally I suspect this is not true given the names I recognise on the list)
• Less active reviewers overcompensate and require things above and beyond the GA standard, and therefore fail things which an experienced reviewer might pass (I have certainly seen this behaviour, but I've also seen inexperienced reviewers pass things which I would not have, so I'm not sure which direction this actually tilts the stats in)
• Passing reviews take less time on average than failing them, so the most active reviewers are the ones who review the most articles which go on to pass
• The most active reviewers are the most willing to handhold a borderline article through to passing (perhaps because they generally spend more time onwiki, so they can devote more time to any given review)

Caeciliusinhorto-public ( talk) 11:44, 15 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Who wants to be my 50th fail? ;) Lee Vilenski ^{( talk • contribs)} 19:52, 13 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Agreed that this is interesting! As you say, I suspect the main differentiating factor is the reviewer's personal choices about what kinds of articles to review. — Ganesha811 ( talk) 18:26, 15 April 2024 (UTC) reply

The old good article mentorship page can be found at Wikipedia:Good article help/mentor, where it consists solely of an outdated list of usernames. There's clearly interest in mentoring, as it managed to gather 27 mentors over its run, but a simple list of usernames isn't that helpful. I created a basic outline at Wikipedia:Good article mentorship for a new mentorship process. The key difference here is that instead of having to choose from an intimidating list of names, aspiring reviewers can request a mentor in a similar format as GOCE requests.

Subpages:

• Wikipedia:Good article mentorship/Top – The transcluded text and formatting of the page. Transclusion allows for the separation of page content and discussion, including automatic signing.
• Wikipedia:Good article mentorship/Mentors – A transcluded list of available mentors. We could create a new page or move Wikipedia:Good article help/mentor to this location.
• Wikipedia:Good article mentorship/Preload – The default preload text when creating a request. This will create a new subsection, inviting the mentee to specify what aspects they need the most help with, and to state what subject area they'd like help starting a review in if they haven't chosen a nom.

It's just an outline right now, so please edit the text and layout. Formatting is not my forte. If even just a few people become regular reviewers through this, it would be a significant improvement to the backlog and the good article process. Thebiguglyalien ( talk) 21:14, 14 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Yeah, that seems pretty good to me. I'd be happy if newish reviewers (and nominators) had a guiding hand rather than some of the crazy threads we see after the fact here sometimes. Lee Vilenski ^{( talk • contribs)} 21:27, 14 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Sounds great. Maybe we should start a new page rather than using the old mentors page, since that way we know all the mentors are familiar with this system and actively watching it. -- asilvering ( talk) 17:15, 15 April 2024 (UTC) reply

I agree, and I've created a new one with a similar format. Maybe once this is up and running a message can be sent to anyone on the old list who's still active to see if they're interested. Thebiguglyalien ( talk) 22:24, 15 April 2024 (UTC) reply

All of the individual pieces should be put together now. But before this gets "launched", I assume the community here would want to discuss how much involvement a mentor would have, and if there are any specific aspects that should/shouldn't be included in their role. And whether the "norm" would be for the mentor to be more active on the review page or on the reviewer's talk page. Thebiguglyalien ( talk) 23:14, 16 April 2024 (UTC) reply

@ Thebiguglyalien, can you find a guinea pig who wants mentorship and do a first go at it and a debrief? Maybe it's just me but I think the direct approach will get us to a working model more quickly than talking about it here in the abstract. -- asilvering ( talk) 23:43, 16 April 2024 (UTC) reply

I was thinking the same thing, I just wanted to make sure all of the obvious stuff was established. I was thinking about asking for a guinea pig on the WP:DISCORD given its heavy population of editors who are moderately experienced but not heavily involved in these processes. Thebiguglyalien ( talk) 23:45, 16 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Yes, much better to ask mentees to request on a dedicated page and have active mentors pick requests up. Could we have some emphasis on "during your first review, consider requesting on this page for someone to provide feedback"? It would be hard to give useful feedback if someone just wrote "I'm thinking of starting GA reviewing—please advise". A mentor needs to have something the mentee has produced (though I suppose that could be contributions history) to scrutinise. — Bilorv ( talk) 21:31, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply

I think it would be helpful if we had a separate category for books under the general "language and literature" heading. Right now, books are diffused throughout the categories according to their topic, which (imo) is a sensible way to arrange them for readers, but not so much for editors, and GAN is not a really "reader-facing" part of the project. Right now you can sorta-kinda get around this by looking at the article alerts page for WP:BOOKS, but I think a separate subcat would be better. -- asilvering ( talk) 17:13, 15 April 2024 (UTC) reply

For the benefit of editors, mathematics books should be listed under Mathematics and cookbooks under Food. Why should they be put together? — Kusma ( talk) 17:51, 15 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Because both writing and reviewing articles on books is much more about what makes a good book article than what makes a good math/food/whatever article. -- asilvering ( talk) 18:11, 15 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Not to mention that books are often pretty hard to classify into the categories that we already have. -- asilvering ( talk) 18:11, 15 April 2024 (UTC) reply

I like the current system. Right now, I count (may have missed some) three books in the "l&l" section, and two books ( The Glorious Cause and Waste Siege) elsewhere; I think that a separate "books" subsection would normally be empty, and would additionally confuse people when it comes to allocating to WP:GA categories. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 20:09, 15 April 2024 (UTC) reply

There's a helpful and friendly editor who is keeping tabs on articles I write, and then making some minor edits and then nominating them for GAN. Whilst the intent is welcomed and the articles I create are certainly not 'my' articles to gatekeep through any editorial process, I would prefer to be involved in the GAN process as these often delve into scope, reliability etc. discussions that require an understanding of the sourcing used in the article. I just want to confirm that a 'significant contributor' is someone who has provided what could be called content additions and not edits, and that I'm not being unduly discouraging to this person in suggesting that their approach may not be the best approach. Any ideas on how to involve them on the journey, and whether co-nomination of GANs is a thing, would help too. Thanks. ＶＲＸＣＥＳ ( talk) 05:06, 16 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Generally we look for something over 10% authorship so as not to be considered a drive-by nomination, which is grounds for immediate removal. That being said, in my opinion it's a bit...overbearing...to walk into an article that someone else has obviously and recently done the work on and nominate it as your own GAN without asking. (As opposed to a situation where there is no main author, or the main author is AWOL, or the article is not actively being developed.) As you say - you're the one with the understanding of and access to sourcing, you're the one who's familiar with why certain editorial decisions were made. You could certainly invite them to co-nominate if you're into that, but if you're not, I personally don't think it would be unreasonable of you to suggest they ask you before nominating. ♠ PMC♠ (talk) 05:38, 16 April 2024 (UTC) reply

I would also be a bit put off if another user regularly nominated articles I was the main contributor to on-wiki processes. Irrelevant to that however, if the additional edits aren't themselves contributing content, these sound like drive-by nominations and are discouraged by current guidelines. Per PMC they could be removed by another party. CMD ( talk) 05:50, 16 April 2024 (UTC) reply

I agree with the others that this is very weird behaviour. I've tidied up an article and nominated it for GA before, but that was after I got the explicit go-ahead from its original main contributor, who declined to be involved but was happy to see the article shepherded through. It might be an awkward conversation to have, but I would say you're well within boundaries of acceptable conduct to tell the person nominating the articles you wrote to cut it out. -- asilvering ( talk) 22:29, 16 April 2024 (UTC) reply

This has probably been asked before, but is not in the FAQ (where it probably should be if asked and answered). I made a GAN which should be both "Chemistry and material science" and "Physics". Note that their was once a "Materials science" project, but it appears to have collapsed some time ago and the gap is now partially filled by Chemistry and (Solid State) Physics. Is there a simple way to do this, the instructions indicate to only choose one. Ldm1954 ( talk) 08:38, 16 April 2024 (UTC) reply

@ Ldm1954: On the GAN page, we list pages exactly once (and there are good reasons for that; we'd quickly get people listing an article about a historical novel involving a WWII submarine in three different places if cross-listings were allowed), so you just have to pick one topic area (at random is fine). However, the nomination will be listed in other places than on the main GAN page, for example the GAN section of Wikipedia:WikiProject Physics/Article alerts if the articles has a WikiProject Physics tag on the talk page. You can also use the "comment" field on the nomination template to mention potential other fields. — Kusma ( talk) 09:30, 16 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Thanks. Add to FAQ? Ldm1954 ( talk) 09:53, 16 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Not sure why there are two (as of right now) red links. TWOrantula^TM ( enter the web) 14:32, 16 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Vandalism, not noticed until the change was picked up by the bot who populates the recent good articles section. — Kusma ( talk) 14:43, 16 April 2024 (UTC) reply

I would like to ask appropriate administrators or appropriate persons involved in overall management of the GA process for a reconsideration of the review commitment by User:Irruptive Creditor for the review page Talk:Modafinil#GA_Review_3. The assigned reviewer has not undertaken any review actions, such as providing feedback or asking questions, leaving the review section empty and in a state of limbo, apart from my message where I tried to contact the reviewer. I tried to contact the reviewer on the review page, their user page, and via Wikipedia email, there has been no response; still, the reviewer was active on Wikipedia on April 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 12 according to their edit history, yet, as of now, they did not reply to any of the outreach attempts; therefore, I believe that the commitment to review may have been a misclick.

As such, I propose that the review commitment be nullified, and the review request for the Modafinil article be returned to the queue. However, rather than treating it as a new request, I suggest it retains its original position and date, as if the review had never commenced. This is akin to an abandoned review, but without the disadvantage of returning to the queue anew. I tried to engage with the reviewer, and the lack of activity from the reviewer’s side should not penalize the progress of the article’s review process. Maxim Masiutin ( talk) 16:04, 16 April 2024 (UTC) reply

I am unsure what you mean by "akin to an abandoned review" Maxim Masiutin; this is an abandoned review, and the procedure followed for them is precisely to return the nomination to its original position in the GAN queue. I will tag the page for G6 deletion. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 16:47, 16 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Deleted. Thanks AJ29, and good luck MM with the renom. Firefangledfeathers ( talk / contribs) 16:50, 16 April 2024 (UTC) reply

I checked now the articles nominated for review and the date of Modafinil is as I requested, i.e. 23 February 2024, the date it had initially. This is exactly what I asked for. Thank you! I didn't know whether it is handled automatically when you delete a review, or you had manually to adjust the date. Please let me know if it was handled automatically, so If next time it will be the same situation, I will just ask you "to request a G6 deletion of the review page" as specified in WP:GAN/I#N4a -- sorry for my initial lenghy request, as I don't have full knowledge of the what's going behind the scene. Maxim Masiutin ( talk) 22:00, 16 April 2024 (UTC) reply

By the phrase "akin to an abandoned review" I meant a situation where a review process has been initiated but not followed through by the assigned reviewer. This is similar to an "abandoned review" where the reviewer has stopped participating in the review process, but with a key difference: in a typical "abandoned review" scenario, as per the Wikipedia instructions, the review would return to the backlog and be treated as a new request. This could potentially delay the review process as it would need to wait for a new reviewer to pick it up from the start in a priority similar to new nominations. However, in my case, I asked the administrators to handle so that the Modafinil article be returned to the queue, retaining its original position and date, as if the review had never commenced. Particularly relevant instruction in my case is (quote): "If the reviewer has not made any comments other than opening the review, it may be better to request a G6 deletion of the review page and start over" - still, it is not explained to which position the nomination should return in the queue. In my case, I asked that the review would not be treated as a new request, but rather continue from where it left off, thus avoiding the delay associated with starting the review process anew. This is what I meant by "akin to an abandoned review, but without the disadvantage of returning to the queue anew". Maxim Masiutin ( talk) 21:55, 16 April 2024 (UTC) reply

My understanding is that this was an abandoned review. The process described at WP:GAN/I#N4a was followed. If there had been more comments and if the G6 were declined, I believe the nom would still be in the same place in the queue. Firefangledfeathers ( talk / contribs) 23:16, 16 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Going to hijack this to ask about a related issue. Talk:Melania Trump/GA1 received just a few bullet points about the first few sections before the reviewer CSD'd it, but an admin rejected the CSD and set it to second opinion instead. Is this the correct process? Thebiguglyalien ( talk) 21:57, 16 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Can you please start a new topic instead and when you refer to a related issue put a link, e.g. write: "my issue similar to that mentioned in Wikipedia talk:Good article nominations#Please nullify the reviewer's commitment to review due to lack of review actions (similar to abandoned review) on Talk:Modafinil#GA_Review_3 - it will help us handle both issues separately. Maxim Masiutin ( talk) 22:06, 16 April 2024 (UTC) reply

It's the same issue. The solution to one is the solution to the other. Thebiguglyalien ( talk) 23:08, 16 April 2024 (UTC) reply

I don't see why that would help Maxim Masiutin; in any case, you're not handling anything.

Thebiguglyalien, as the review is seemingly complete in the reviewer's eyes, and you're the one dissatisfied, I would say that asking for a second opinion is the correct process; you can of course also ask the reviewer to fail the nomination and renominate the article. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 23:20, 16 April 2024 (UTC) reply

I probably would have declined the G6 also, since there were substantive comments made in the review—not saying there weren't other issues. I'm not sure what the next step is, but a second opinion seems reasonable to me. Firefangledfeathers ( talk / contribs) 23:16, 16 April 2024 (UTC) reply

It wasn't a G6, it was a G7. The nominator left the review (by mutual agreement). Thebiguglyalien ( talk) 23:51, 16 April 2024 (UTC) reply

I've made the backlog drives subpage "permanent" in the tab header to give it more visibility, since we've agreed that we ought to be having drives more often. We didn't agree on timing or number of backlog drives, though. Here's an inventory of most of the suggestions that seem applicable and possible:

1. We have three backlog drives a year
2. They are regular and recur in the same months every year
3. Some are themed/only address part of the backlog, to cut down on reviewer fatigue (this is proposal 14)
4. January and August look like good times
5. Swap Unreviewed nominations with Old nominations at Backlog Drives Progress (this is proposal 6)

In light of those, here is a proposal:

1. Three drives a year, in January, May, and September
2. The January drive is the "main" one, targetting all nominations, but especially old ones (ie, prop 6); bonus points are given for reviewing longer and older articles
3. The May drive is particularly newbie-friendly; we put extra effort into recruiting new reviewers, give points for mentorship, etc (I'm happy to brainstorm/co-ordinate on this)
4. The September drive is focused on some particular element of the backlog drive, and the co-ords will draw up a list of qualifying GANs in advance (possible examples: articles by editors with no GAs, articles by editors with more reviews than GAs, etc); points will still be given for reviews that aren't on that list, but the aim is to wipe out that list in particular.

In the earlier discussion, @ AirshipJungleman29 said I mean, sure, but all of them require people to do the things. If you want to showcase model reviews, reward good reviews, be a mentor, or anything else, get on with it. I stepped forward with GAR and have been basically running the process for a year. So, here I am, getting on with it. -- asilvering ( talk) 21:59, 16 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Thank you very much. Regardless of whether we will have regular backlog drives (I expressed against regular backlog drive on Proposal 1 discussion and gave arguments), I liked very much to have a list of past drives at Wikipedia:Good_articles/GAN_Backlog_Drives#Past Drives. I didn't know that we had this list. Anyway, the special permanent page for GA drives, even if we will not have many GA drives the future, is a good think that I appreciate. For example, we can have announcements of future drives or analysis of past drives there. Maxim Masiutin ( talk) 22:14, 16 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Thanks for stepping forward. The proposal sounds good and fair—a solid foundation to start with, and to change if things don't work. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 23:37, 16 April 2024 (UTC) reply

I like the proposal, although since the last drive was in March, I think it'd be too soon to have one this May. I'd like to see the next one about recruiting more reviewers—maybe with two streams of awards, "Reviewing" and "Mentoring". — Bilorv ( talk) 21:32, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Encouraging new reviewers sounds great, definitely worth a try in the next backlog drive. — Kusma ( talk) 22:12, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Yes, I don't think it would be good to have a backlog drive this May, that's too soon. So the next drive would be September. Lots of time to figure out how best to make it newbie-encouraging. -- asilvering ( talk) 23:25, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Let me raise the major usability issue in the user interface of the Good Article nominations list that I observed first time I submitted an article for GA review a few years ago.

The number of reviews and GAs in parentheses before the user name is misleading as if it was a number of reviews ans GAs that the article received, not the user.

Consider the following example:

Boot Monument (talk | history | discuss review) – American Revolutionary War memorial – (6 reviews, 0 GAs) Relativity (talk) 02:29, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
 Review: this article is being reviewed (additional comments are welcome). (32 reviews, 19 GAs) Harper J. Cole (talk) 11:12, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

It looks like the article "Boot Monument" so far has 6 reviews and 0 GAs or 32 reviews, 19 GAs, suggesting a collective review process for a first-time users who don't understand the process.

Initially, it was only me who understood this way, but later I saw other editors understood the same way as me, suggesting that it was not my fault but a major usability issue in the user interface of the Good Article nominations list.

I could not find particular examples in the archive to prove my point that other users understood as me, but such cases existed. Maybe I will manage to find examples. However, please do not consider my examples as crucial for considering my request, evaluate my request without the examples.

My proposal is to present the list differently:

Boot Monument (talk | history | discuss review) – American Revolutionary War memorial – (nominated by Relativity who has a past history of 6 reviews and 0 GAs) Relativity (talk) 02:29, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
 Review: this article is being reviewed (additional comments are welcome). (being reviewed by Harper J. Cole who has a past history of 32 reviews and 19 GAs) Harper J. Cole (talk) 11:12, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

The exact phrase "who has a past history of" can be slightly different, for example consider other variants, such as:

1. (nominated by Relativity with a track record of 6 reviews and 0 GAs)
2. (nominated by Relativity who has accumulated 6 reviews and 0 GAs)
3. (nominated by Relativity boasting 6 reviews and 0 GAs)
4. (nominated by Relativity known for 6 reviews and 0 GAs)
5. (nominated by Relativity with a background of 6 reviews and 0 GAs)
6. (nominated by Relativity having 6 reviews and 0 GAs to their name)
7. (nominated by Relativity with a history of 6 reviews and 0 GAs)
8. (nominated by Relativity who has previously achieved 6 reviews and 0 GAs)
9. (nominated by Relativity credited with 6 reviews and 0 GAs)
10. (nominated by Relativity who has been recognized for 6 reviews and 0 GAs)

We can use any of these alternatives to convey the experience and contributions of the nominator and the reviewer in a clear and concise manner.

My proposal makes lines longer by having the names used twice per line: first time in parenthesis and the second time as a signature similar to that generated by four tildas ~~~~, still, it will resolve the usability issue.

If you are concerned about the lengths of the lines, remove the signature, the user name will be used only once. Signatures provide automated way to reply, but there is no need to reply in the GA nominations list.

Additional benefit of my proposal is that will not only make the list easier to understand, but it will bring clarity for new users on the steps of the GA review process. The current format can be confusing for new users who are not familiar with the Good Article nomination process. By explicitly stating the track record of the nominator and reviewer, we eliminate any ambiguity regarding the source of the reviews and GAs.

I believe that my proposal is consistent with Wikipedia standards. Wikipedia values clarity and transparency in its content and processes. The proposed change aligns with these values by making the information more accessible and understandable. Maxim Masiutin ( talk) 22:38, 16 April 2024 (UTC) reply

I will appreciate if the editors or administrator who take care of the overall GA review process nominate my proposal to the whole list of proposals as "Proposal N:..." by putting to to the list of the all proposals. Maxim Masiutin ( talk) 22:45, 16 April 2024 (UTC) reply

The proposal drive has ended. And for what it's worth, I never once read the nominations this way, and I don't know if anyone else has either. The proposed change would require a huge use of space on a page that's already full to bursting. Thebiguglyalien ( talk) 23:06, 16 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Please consider reviewing this proposal separately, on substance, not related to proposal drive. Maxim Masiutin ( talk) 00:33, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply

If your concern is space than my proposal also saves space wasted by tildas, so your concern is addressed by the poposal. Here it how it looks without tildas:

Boot Monument (talk | history | discuss review) – American Revolutionary War memorial – nominated by Relativity who has 6 reviews and 0 GAs.
 Review: this article is being reviewed by Harper J. Cole who has 6 reviews and 0 GAs (additional comments are welcome)

Maxim Masiutin ( talk) 00:42, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Please take your concerns about accessibility and apply them to your own comments, which are probably second to none in sheer tediousness on this site. You have been told such before, on this very page—if you can't remember, you will find it in the archives; no need for miffling about with "maybes". ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 23:34, 16 April 2024 (UTC) reply

How would you have proposed to rewrite my comment with this proposal, can you please provide an example? Maxim Masiutin ( talk) 00:35, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply

I could not find in archives due to poor usability of the search feature. Wikipedia should not be for nerds. My recent example was related to the reviews Talk:Ketotifen/GA1, Talk:Modafinil/GA1, and other reviews by User:BeingObjective. He submitted to many reviews and provided pass or fail message but didn't formally conclude the reviews, when we asked him to conclude reviews, he wrote that he he thought that it is a collective process and his opinion was only a vote. This was in 2023. When I submitted my first article I also thought the same way as User:BeingObjective. Maxim Masiutin ( talk) Maxim Masiutin ( talk) 00:56, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Yes, you and BeingObjective did not bother with the GA instructions, which clearly explain the GA process. If you look at Wikipedia talk:Good article nominations/Archive 30, you can find the sections relevant to you, through a process I believe nerds call "reading"—I don't know if you're as unfamiliar with it as you are with "clicking". ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 01:34, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply

It can be even simpler: just moving the "(6 reviews, 0 GAs)" after the username and date. So using the examples:

Boot Monument (talk | history | discuss review) – American Revolutionary War memorial – Relativity (talk) 02:29, 2 March 2024 (UTC) (6 reviews, 0 GAs)

 Review: this article is being reviewed (additional comments are welcome). Harper J. Cole (talk) 11:12, 15 April 2024 (UTC) (32 reviews, 19 GAs)

Skyshifter talk 01:03, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Yes, this is also a solution. Maxim Masiutin ( talk) 01:13, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply

If there must be a change this is the way to do it, but I am not convinced there is a need to make a change. Say in either case it is read wrongly, does this matter much? Not really. CMD ( talk) 01:43, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply

It matters much because misleads the newcomer into belief that the counters are related to the article being reviewed, that the review is collective process of votes so that if they click to add their vote to the already big number of reviews of the article it would not hurt. Maxim Masiutin ( talk) 06:27, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply

First of all, I don't think the current structure implies any kind of collective voting process. But let's agree that you thought it was - how many people aside from you have actually made that error? ♠ PMC♠ (talk) 06:49, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply

I don't know how many people aside from me have actually made that error. The current structure has counters related to user near the article not near the user, there is no reason in positioning it that way. It should be posisioned correctly and unambigously. Maxim Masiutin ( talk) 07:06, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply

BeingObjective made this error, he wrote about it, but this list of users is not exhaustive, as we may not be aware of all cases, users may not complain or we may not ask them the reason. Typical signals to watch if when a reviwer submit to a few reviews and do not complete at least one. Maxim Masiutin ( talk) 07:07, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Even if only me made this error, i.e. was caught by this usability error - that was enough to fix. Maxim Masiutin ( talk) 07:09, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply

This usability error affects not only the newcomers but old editors as well who suffer from their nominations clicked by newcomers misled by this practice of putting counters of user near the article. Maxim Masiutin ( talk) 07:13, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply

No, the "usability error" affects only those who can't be bothered to read the instructions, such as the now-blocked BeingObjective and yourself. Everyone else has managed to get their heads around this, presumably because they spend their time reading instead of making assumptions. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 12:45, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply

As far as I can see BeingObjective never said anywhere that they were confused by the "(X reviews, Y GAs)" thing, so I don't know why we are citing them as evidence for changing the system. If we were implementing this from scratch I think I would support Skyshifter's proposed ordering, but I really don't think it's so significant that it's worth changing everything around now we have an established order. People are used to the current system, and the chance that changing it confuses people (and potentially breaks any bots or scripts which expect the layout in a particular order) seems to me to be a good reason not to change things unless there's a compelling reason to, which I'm really not seeing at the moment. Caeciliusinhorto-public ( talk) 14:09, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply

If nothing else works, read the documentation principle means that you don't have to intentionally make obscure design to force the user read the documentation. You didn't comment on whether the current location of counters or that proposed by me and User:Skyshifter is the correct one. If you prefer instead to discuss rule following without starting a new discussion thread, let us do so.

Before you ask others to follow the rules, start with yourself and show by example. I once joined as a second opinion reviewer and concluded the review as Fail while it was a procedural/technical error, I was not authorized to conclude the review as a second opinion reviewer, it was the exclusive competence of the first reviewer. Instead, you admitted my completion of the review and admitted discussion on merit on whether my Fail vote was appropriate or should I have changed my mind to Pass. This discussion was supported by other editors, yet nobody, following the rules, cancelled my completion vote and provided the way for the first reviewer to complete the review as prescribed by the rules.

As for the blocked user BeingObjective issue that you raised, let us also discuss it if you think it is important. He followed the rules on target audience in medical articles and helped rewrite articles in proper language removing jargon, but didn't follow GA rules. He made valuable contributions to the quality of articles yet got banned.

Folllowing rules on article quality and improving the article quality such as BeingObjective did has more merit as it brings more value to readers than following rules on GA process which brings more value to editors rather then users. We write encyclopedia for readers, we are not a social network. Blocking editors such as BeingObjective led that he was the only one editor ever who answered my calls for expert opinion, other calls just hang for months. More users you block, worse for the reader will be. Editors such as BeingObjective should not cope throught and design minefileds of interface design ambiguities and rules scattered through various texts - the thing he didn't manage to do. We now cannot ask him how he interpreted the GA counters because we blocked him.

George Johnson | "Hanged by mistake 1882. He was right we was wrong but we hung him and he's gone.

Maxim Masiutin ( talk) 15:35, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Are you seriously comparing this to a hanging? You ought to be blocked for the amount of bloviating you've done to date all based on your inability to follow simple instructions. If you really think that GAN "is collective process of votes" then we are clearly dealing with a PEBCAK error. Trainsandotherthings ( talk) 21:25, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Yes, once you block a Wikipedia user, this user is gone forever, we cannot ask BeingObjective about GA review because we blocked him. Maxim Masiutin ( talk) 21:34, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply

As for the user BeingObjective, I don't think that it was a PEBCAK error in that case. That user could rewrite articles for simplicity to be understood by general audience as required by Wikipedia, and he could provide expert help on Medicine when I used "expert opinion requested" template. You cannot do that, but you can understand GA counters. Each person has different abilities and we have to acknowledge that. Maxim Masiutin ( talk) 21:38, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply

And if you do not cease your constant tediousness, I will be opening a thread at ANI to achieve the same result for you. You may take that as a final warning. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 21:36, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Please do that. Maxim Masiutin ( talk) 21:41, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply

 Please see the ANI discussion Maxim started at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#User:AirshipJungleman29. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 00:18, 18 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Hello! Just a quick question, is there a specific guideline that constrains the number of GANs one can nominate? My expectation would be in terms of fairness that the closer to one, the better, so as not to saturate a backlog and give other users equal opportunity to have users select their articles for review. Is this thinking correct? If so, is this explained anywhere? ＶＲＸＣＥＳ ( talk) 05:30, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply

There's no maximum, although if you have more than 10 at once, anything new that you nominate gets temporarily hidden in a separate little collapsed box. ♠ PMC♠ (talk) 05:56, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Ok, good to know, thanks again for your help. ＶＲＸＣＥＳ ( talk) 06:18, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply

...what's the difference between good articles and featured articles? (Typed via my Galaxy Tab A.) -- Slgrandson ( How's my egg-throwing coleslaw?) 07:52, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply

A brief summary at Wikipedia:Compare criteria Good v. Featured article, and I would summarise in that a FA has a much higher standard for content thoroughness, as well as much higher standards for formatting and presentation. CMD ( talk) 07:59, 17 April 2024 (UTC) reply

The Bertram Fletcher Robinson article's GAN was obviously not thorough. The reviewer literally rewrote the GA criteria list with some AI bot and this was the only noteworthy thing the reviewer said:

"After a thorough assessment of Bertram Fletcher Robinson, I can affirm that it successfully meets the criteria for Good Article status on Wikipedia. The article is well-written, with prose that is clear, concise, and accessible to a broad audience, adhering to the Manual of Style guidelines in all respects, including the lead section, layout, and incorporation of lists. It is verifiable, with all references correctly presented and reliable sources cited inline for any content that could be reasonably challenged. There is no evidence of original research, copyright violations, or plagiarism. The article is broad in its coverage, addressing the main aspects of the topic while maintaining focus and avoiding unnecessary detail. It represents viewpoints neutrally, without editorial bias, and remains stable, not subject to ongoing edit wars or content disputes. Furthermore, it is appropriately illustrated with media that are tagged with their copyright statuses and have relevant captions, enhancing the reader's understanding of the subject."

We can see that this was just a rewrite using some artificial intelligence bot, further displaying the fact that this review was just rushed. Otherwise I see some redundancy in the prose as well as one of the sections being way too long.  750h+ |  Talk  09:47, 18 April 2024 (UTC) reply

• Either Talk:Wii U/GA2, which was also not reviewed seriously. 2001:4455:3AA:B000:699C:DDA6:CE7E:B379 ( talk) 13:14, 18 April 2024 (UTC) reply

  I'm not sure how a review from two years ago from a different user is informational. Lee Vilenski ^{( talk • contribs)} 13:22, 18 April 2024 (UTC) reply

• Two months ago, that may exceed our statue of limitations for reversion. The lead should be more comprehensive as well, but at a glance it's not a quickfail sort of situation where I'd jump to a GAR before posting on the talkpage. CMD ( talk) 21:05, 18 April 2024 (UTC) reply

  The main image also has obviously incorrect sourcing information (or the nominator is over 120 years old). — Kusma ( talk) 21:19, 18 April 2024 (UTC) reply

  Indeed. GAR is the only next step I'm afraid. Lee Vilenski ^{( talk • contribs)} 22:36, 18 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Pokelego999 recently quick-failed Super Mutant, and then nominated it for deletion ~2.5 hours later. It's been a while since I've done GA reviews, but I have a couple of concerns:

Is this article really so bad that a quickfail was appropriate?

Is it normal for a GA reviewer to nominate an article they've reviewed for deletion without waiting for the nominator to make any appropriate improvements? Jclemens ( talk) 00:30, 19 April 2024 (UTC) reply

Normally I would have left it alone, regardless of my concerns, but I've discussed the topic with the nominator and we both agreed to send it to AfD. In any case, I quick-failed on the rationale of Rule 3, which indicates that the subject needs broad and significant in-depth discussion. The discussion in the article is rather bare per reasons I've outlined in my comments on both the review page and in the AfD. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 ( talk) 00:34, 19 April 2024 (UTC) reply