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The existing grammar appears correct.
Nikkimaria (
talk) 05:56, 16 March 2024 (UTC)reply
The comma should still be added at least because it helps to clarify the separation between the introductory phrase "Despite this" and the main clause that follows it.
LukeTheAwesomePro (
talk) 06:08, 16 March 2024 (UTC)reply
Such commas are not required in British English, which appears to be the
variant in which this article is written.
Nikkimaria (
talk) 14:24, 16 March 2024 (UTC)reply
Beethoven's Nationality
Beethoven's family was from Austria and he even moved back to Vienna when he grew up, yet on Wikipedia, it calls him a German composer. He was not German, not even Prussian. He happened to live in Cologne for the beginning of his life, but he was and always will be an Austrian composer. Germany didn't even claim Beethoven to be German until the rise of Nazism. Calling Beethoven German is a common misconception nowadays. I was wondering if there was any reason it should be changed to "Ludwig van Beethoven (baptised...) was an Austrian composer and pianist." Thanks!
Jaxon.t.allen (
talk) 18:31, 29 March 2024 (UTC)reply
It appears that most major reference sources, such as Grove Music, continue to refer to him as German. Do you have sources that use Austrian?
Nikkimaria (
talk) 18:34, 29 March 2024 (UTC)reply
Well, his family was from Mechelen in Brabant, no?
Jaxon.t.allen (
talk) 11:12, 30 March 2024 (UTC)reply
I just looked at his family
tree and his father was
Austrian, but his mother was Prussian (German). Perhaps it should not read Austrian composer as I originally thought but Ludwig van Beethoven (…) was an Austrio-German composer and pianist.
Jaxon.t.allen (
talk) 11:34, 30 March 2024 (UTC)reply
We can't look at the primary sources and interpret how we should refer to him - see
WP:NOR. Instead we need to follow the secondary and tertiary literature, which as mentioned seems to use German.
Nikkimaria (
talk) 14:07, 30 March 2024 (UTC)reply
Don't primary sources usually take precedent over secondary sources? Also, this brings to question why these secondary sources exist. When was he first referred to as German?
Jaxon.t.allen (
talk) 16:31, 30 March 2024 (UTC)reply
But the Primary source is the rock-solid truth. Secondary sources are just interperations.
Jaxon.t.allen (
talk) 17:26, 30 March 2024 (UTC)reply
Wikipedia is based on what the majority of reliable secondary sources say. It may be hard to swallow, but things like "rock-solid truth" don't have any meaning for WP's purposes. Aza24 (talk) 20:03, 30 March 2024 (UTC)reply
Because of Wikipedia's three core content policies:
neutral point of view,
verifiability, and
no original research. We summarize what secondary sources say, representing them proportionately; we don't declare absolute truths based on interpretation of primary sources.
Nikkimaria (
talk) 01:39, 1 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I forget who once wrote something along the lines of "the great triumph of post-war Germany was to pursuade the world that Beethoven was German and Hitler Austrian".
Johnbod (
talk) 16:38, 30 March 2024 (UTC)reply
Beethoven was at least half-Austrian. He would've wanted to be reffered to as Austrian, heavily associating himself with the hapsburghs and their nation.
Jaxon.t.allen (
talk) 17:25, 30 March 2024 (UTC)reply
Hitler on the other hand, was a German Nationalist. It is not the birthplace, but the ethnicity and ideology that make up the nationality.
Jaxon.t.allen (
talk) 17:33, 30 March 2024 (UTC)reply
Die Österreicher haben das Kunststück fertiggebracht, aus Beethoven einen Österreicher und aus Hitler einen Deutschen zu machen.
I'd like to point out that his name is written Van Beethoven with a capital "V". Also writing his name without the "Van" is a mistake.
Van Beethoven was of Flemish origin and his grandfather was organist at the cathedral of Mechelen. In Flemish, "Van" means "from" and is always written with a capital "V", just like Jean-Claude Van Damme who also had Flemish ancestors.
Van Beethoven literally means: "From the beetroot farms".
Van Beethoven himself wrote his name with a capital "V" and never left out the "Van".
The lower case "v" is a late 19th century germanisation of his name (then also often erroneously written "von") and the standalone "Beethoven" is just a modern popular simplification.
Peter Vercauteren (
talk) 11:05, 7 April 2024 (UTC)reply
I disagree. Wikipedia should give the reader correct information as it's an encyclopedia of general knowledge. It's not because he's commonly known as "Beethoven" or because his full name is often erroneously written with a lowercase "v" that Wikipedia should follow popular belief?
Peter Vercauteren (
talk) 12:16, 7 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Hello Peter. I wonder could you provide some scholarly sources that support your claim? Many thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 12:22, 7 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Hello Martin! First of all, I'm Flemish myself so I know how we write our names. Secondly, look at Van Beethoven's autograph here on Wikipedia. 😉
Peter Vercauteren (
talk) 12:27, 7 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Thanks Peter, but personal nationality or ethnicity is not regarded as
WP:RS. The signature looks useful, but might be discounted as
WP:PRIMARY. I was wondering if there were any academic sources that make the same argument that you have used here? Thanks.
Martinevans123 (
talk) 12:37, 7 April 2024 (UTC)reply
After doing a bit of research, it does appear that his father Johann had already germanised his autograph to a lowercase "v" (contrary to Ludwig's grandfather Lodewijk Van Beethoven), but for some reason Ludwig reverted to the Flemish spelling with a capital.
Peter Vercauteren (
talk) 13:01, 7 April 2024 (UTC)reply
level-3 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale.
