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See also: Talk:Expressway

History

The history section deals with a specific definition; is there any proof that there were no city streets to which the maintaining authority limited driveway access before then?

On the other hand, there is stuff that can be said about history - both about that type (if such info can be found) and about major highways. This article would specifically cover issues relating to the limitation of access. Often such limitation was illegal in the early days, leading to problems with early highways. For instance I believe the QEW was initially built with full access, while Texas has used frontage roads on most freeways until recently. I'm pretty sure there's a bit about this in a USDOT book I have - I'll get to it at some point. SPUI ( T - C) 10:23, 12 July 2006 (UTC) reply

  • There is no reason or expectation of proving a negative. If you find an earlier verifiable example of a limited-access city street for horse-drawn vehicles, please add the reference to the history section. William Allen Simpson 16:16, 12 July 2006 (UTC) reply

Comments on necessity for citation tags in the History section:

  • concept ... started with the parkway system of New York -- This definitely needs a citation from a reliable source. How can we be sure that the concept did not exist previously? Also, when did the term "limited access road" begin to be used legally?
  • typically divided by a ... median -- not absolutely necessary if there is an article regarding the New York Parkway System with its own sources.
  • concept evolved into uninterrupted arterial roads -- It's not clear what the difference is between a "limited access road" and an "uninterrupted arterial road". The difference should be explained in the article.
  • commonly known as expressways... -- maybe this should be reworded into "sometimes known as..." so we can remove the need for a citation here. Polaron | Talk 17:48, 19 July 2006 (UTC) reply

I have reverted Vegaswikian's use of [1] as a source for "The concept of limited-access roadways started with the parkway system in the state of New York". In addition to not being a reliable source (I'm willing to accept it for a clear fact like the 1907 date, but nothing more controversial), it says nothing of the sort. The closest thing is "When it was completed in 1925, the Bronx River Parkway was the first modern, multi-lane limited-access parkway in North America." Not all limited-access roads are modern, multi-lane, parkways, or in North America. -- SPUI ( T - C) 13:03, 21 July 2006 (UTC) reply

Inclusion of merged articles

  • Several terms used in this page were the result of earlier merges, specifically

Limited-access highway (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) and Controlled-access highway (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). It is not "misleading" to combine the terms on this single page, where the commonalities and differences are discussed. I've reverted SPUI's repeated deletion of merged material.

  • There is no good reason to have 4 to 6 stubs, all talking about mere terminology differences between countries. William Allen Simpson 16:07, 12 July 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Those articles were incorrect. For instance "A controlled-access highway is usually a step up from a limited-access highway." This a definition that is not in wide use, and directly contradicts the intro. There was also some original research - "The bypass is a freeway in terms of signage although it has traffic lights at the junctions." -- SPUI ( T - C) 16:26, 13 July 2006 (UTC) reply
  • This is such nonsense. Who cares what you wrote in the intro, the Wikipedia:Lead section is a summary of the contents. If the contents change, the lead section changes. Factual observations of actual roads are not original research. William Allen Simpson 13:22, 14 July 2006 (UTC) reply
  • What is a "freeway in terms of signage"? -- SPUI ( T - C) 15:37, 14 July 2006 (UTC) reply
  • What, you need pictures? Try driving a UP road, as I have. I know exactly what the original author meant. If you can find some term of art that expresses the thought better, that might be an improvement to the article.
  • I ask again - what is a "freeway in terms of signage"? -- SPUI ( T - C) 21:33, 15 July 2006 (UTC) reply
  • I know what he is trying to say, but it is a unimportant example, the Escanaba bypass is an expressway, not a freeway; Michigan has a small number of them. Some have Interstate-standard signage such as the new M-53 bypass around Romeo. Some, like M-5 Haggerty Connector in Novi & Walled Lake, have signage like a Divided Highway. And just to throw off the mix there is the 10 mile long expressway half of Metro Parkway which isn't even an MDOT road. The sentence should be deleted, IMO. -- KelleyCook 16:15, 16 July 2006 (UTC) reply

This edit removed citations and re-introduced RIRO Expressway, a neologism. -- SPUI ( T - C) 16:01, 19 July 2006 (UTC) reply

Authoritative definition

While it appears that the precise definition of "limited-access" or "controlled-access" varies greatly in terms of legal definitions, does anyone know if there is a more universal civil engineering definition for these? Or are the engineering definitions also fuzzy?

Another question: does the limitation of access refer to the places where vehicles can enter/exit the road? I have seen a definition where it means there is no public right of way to the road in general except as specified legally, e.g. only motor vehicles of certain types may use the road. It might be useful to get a variety of authoritative definitions and see what the extent of variation is. -- Polaron | Talk 16:14, 19 July 2006 (UTC) reply

  • According to [2] (not a reliable source but possibly helpful in finding them), some states (and AASHTO) use "controlled access" for a freeway and "limited access" for a non-freeway, while others use the reverse (for instance Florida - [3] [4]).

Variants

Comments on the need for citations in the Variants section:

  1. controlled access highway is usually a step up from a limited access highway -- This does not appear to be generally true. I believe both Connecticut and New York, for example, do not distinguish between the two terms. The statement should be made more specific (e.g. "According to the definitions used by MUTCD,...") and referenced.
  2. usually features ... interchanges and frontage roads ... -- Probably not necessary. If the previous reference is made clear, then this should probably follow as well.
  3. expressway in terms of signage -- what does this mean? That the roadway has Exit signs? Would the West Side Highway be one? This definitely needs a citation, assuming the term "expressway in terms of signage" is not made up.

Polaron | Talk 18:07, 19 July 2006 (UTC) reply

NYSPS and the intro

I redid the into to use the NYSPS and the Long Island Motor Parkway as the begining of this concept. There are several souces that support this and unless someone finds something earlier this should be the best information at this time. The rest of the article still needs a major cleanup. Discussing how this concept developed over time and spread to other types of access control techniques is needed. Vegaswikian 19:43, 21 July 2006 (UTC) reply

  • There are no sources - and certainly no reliable sources - that back this up. I have reverted. -- SPUI ( T - C) 20:34, 21 July 2006 (UTC) reply
  • So you agree that there are sources that may not be reliable. If so, in an attempt to reach consensus on cleaning up the mess that this article is, just add a cite or fact tag. I think what is there now reads better and does not have anywhere near the number of issues that the previous text had and at the same time covers basically everything from the old text. Vegaswikian 20:50, 21 July 2006 (UTC) reply
  • That "fact" about New York's parkways being first has been marked with {{ fact}} for a while, and no one has come up with even an unreliable source that says that. -- SPUI ( T - C) 20:53, 21 July 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Would you please undo your revert and allow some other editors to comment on these changes. We can not get consensus on fixing this article if every reasonable attempt to fix the article is reverted. The suggested change is no less supported by fact then the mess that curently exists. Vegaswikian 20:58, 21 July 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Adding unsourced information is not reasonable. -- SPUI ( T - C) 21:17, 21 July 2006 (UTC) reply

Note how many different matches there are in [5]. Any one of them could be claimed as the first limited access road. Also note in [6]: "there was an older road in Rio de Janeiro". There are two related issues here:

  1. There is rarely agreement on a "first" of this nature. See for instance first railroads in North America - you'll find many sources claiming the Granite Railway was the first, when there were many before it!
  2. The concept of limited access applies to not only these automobile highways but also older roadways that were de facto limited access by nature of being built through parks. There are also strange cases like this one, described in State Route 110 (California):
    A nine-mile (14 km), dedicated cycleway was built in 1897 by a private business to connect Pasadena to Los Angeles. Its right of way followed the stream bed of the Arroyo Seco and required 1,250,000 board feet (2,950 m³) of pine wood to construct.
    At the time, road improvements such as paving were mainly for bicycles. So this was a limited access road.

SPUI ( T - C) 21:35, 21 July 2006 (UTC) reply

  • Then there is a simple fix to change the wording to be among the first or one of the first or the first in the US or to even list the roads claiming this position in the article. That is not possible when the changes are reverted out. Any of those changes would be a lot better then reveerting an attempt to improve the article and would make it even more encylopedic. Vegaswikian 21:48, 21 July 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Then start such a list - and don't put any in the intro. -- SPUI ( T - C) 21:53, 21 July 2006 (UTC) reply
  • That would require a revert of the existing intro, since it has some of the information, followed by a rewrite and the 3RR rule comes into play now. Vegaswikian 22:34, 21 July 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Maybe you should have thought of that before you started to edit war to include uncited material. -- SPUI ( T - C) 22:34, 21 July 2006 (UTC) reply
  • I did not start an edit war. I was in the middle of finishing the changes by adding more material when the previous change was reverted. It takes time to look through other articles to find what you need to do a rewrite to something that might get consensus. Vegaswikian 22:43, 21 July 2006 (UTC) reply

The concept and various names

I added this section following the introduction to address many of the concerns raised by other editors. I believe that the simple article about the concept and the different names it goes under today may be enough for the article. I would hope that before someone goes revert happy that this be allowed to stay as is with some comments here. The article as it was with some many disputes and upto 5 references for a single sentenance was not of much use and not very encylopedic. I'd like to hear some feedback from other editors on this change. Vegaswikian 20:46, 21 July 2006 (UTC) reply

Australia - Highway

The term Highway in Australia doesn't equate to Freeway or Motorway. Usually (in my experience) a highway is just the main road between 2 places. Many highways are not controlled access roads. Ozdaren ( talk) 14:45, 31 March 2010 (UTC) reply

List of road terms from article

I have copied this list here, which I don't believe is justified in the article as there is a link to a long list in the article anyway. PeterEastern ( talk) 08:39, 4 April 2010 (UTC) reply

Major cleanup

I have been gone through the article cutting out a lot of content much of which was tagged as having issues or was not central to the subject (none of the photos were necessary or useful in the context). I have reduced the article to a simple definition of the civil engineering term with links out to related subjects. I will add some diagrams to it over time unless anyone else does. PeterEastern ( talk) 08:41, 4 April 2010 (UTC) reply

Merger proposal

I propose that Expressway be merged into Limited-access road. I think that the content in the articles can easily be explained in a combined article. Nankai ( talk) 00:31, 16 June 2011 (UTC) The article Expressway is in danger of becoming an article about the various meanings of the word expressway and not an article about a type of road. Sections on expressways of particular countries, where the use of the word in that country is synonymous with freeway or motorway have been moved to the newly merged article Controlled-access highway. The term expressway is still too ambiguous (because many countries use the word to mean freeway/motorway), and I therefore propose limited-access road as a working title. The Limited-access road article has been redirected to Controlled-access highway for several months, in my opinion incorrectly, so I reverted this redirection. Limited-access road is about a range of types of roads encompassing freeways, but I think that ambiguity can be accommodated with a few simple links. Above all, I feel the merging of the articles is more important than the name of the finished combined article. Nankai ( talk) 00:41, 16 June 2011 (UTC) reply

To make it clear, what I am really proposing is:

Nankai ( talk) 00:43, 16 June 2011 (UTC) reply

In principal, this sounds like a good idea. I like the idea of "limited Access road". We will however need to agree what constitutes a "limited access road". As a start point, may I suggest that we use the OECD definition (see Controlled-access highway) and define a limited-access road as one that meets at least one but not all the OECD criteria. Martinvl ( talk) 18:13, 16 June 2011 (UTC) reply
I think in premise it is a good idea to merge together all limited access roads that are lesser than a freeway/motorway into a single article which addresses the concept of limiting private, direct and bidirectional access to adjacent properties. I note, however, that expressway is a near universal term in English to refer to freeways and freeway-like roads. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  τ ¢ 20:52, 16 June 2011 (UTC) reply

Makes sense to me, I support this. Having one comprehensive article is much more encyclopedic than a bunch of smaller, somewhat repetitive articles. Haljackey ( talk) 00:45, 22 June 2011 (UTC) reply

Merged... so what about the redirect?

As User:Floydian said above I note, however, that expressway is a near universal term in English to refer to freeways and freeway-like roads. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 20:52, 16 June 2011 (UTC) ...do people think that Expressway should redirect here or to Controlled-access highway? My rather brief research, which I used in Expressway (disambiguation) has: reply

  1. A controlled-access highway, the highest-grade type of highway with access ramps, lane dividers etc for high-speed traffic, especially in Australia, China, India, Japan, Kuwait, Malaysia, Nigeria, Pakistan, Philippines, Qatar, Singapore, South Korea, Thailand
  2. A limited-access road, being a road of somewhat lesser quality than a freeway/motorway, with some but not all characteristics of a controlled-access highway, especially in Canada, Iran, New Zealand, Taiwan, United Kingdom, United States

Do you go by countries, populations, or what to decide? What do people think? Nankai ( talk) 21:33, 23 June 2011 (UTC) reply

May make the most sense now to move that disambiguation page over to expressway. This way, readers are given a choice between the two (most common) possible meanings of the term. We have no idea what nationality readers are of and what type of road "expressway" refers to in their country/region - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  τ ¢ 21:40, 23 June 2011 (UTC) reply
...or redirect Expressway to Expressway (disambiguation). Same thing really. Nankai ( talk) 02:46, 24 June 2011 (UTC) reply
This is a tough one. In many countries expressway refers to a controlled-access highway while in others it's a limited-access road. Further still, there are controlled-access expressways (like the Gardiner Expressway) and at-grade expressways (like the Veterans Memorial Parkway, where does parkway fit into all this?) which confuses things even further. I have no strong feelings one way or the other as what this should redirect to so I'll leave it up to you guys. Haljackey ( talk) 23:39, 23 June 2011 (UTC) reply
Parkway certainly has WP:DICT issues. See Talk:Parkway#Issues Nankai ( talk) 02:49, 24 June 2011 (UTC) reply
A Parkway is generally defined as a scenic road (first and foremost) that is landscaped and contoured to flow with the land, and can vary from the Don Valley Parkway to the Niagara Parkway. The Veterans Memorial Parkway is essentially the verbatim definition of an expressway in North America; in that case "Parkway" is just the name, and not a proper term. Parkway should have its own article and be linked from both LAR and CAH. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  τ ¢ 03:10, 24 June 2011 (UTC) reply
I lot of people get hung up over a word, particularly when that word is translated into English from another language. May I draw to attention the use of the words "freeway" and "snelweg" in South Africa. The word "freeway" was chosen by the Apartheid Government as a subtle anti-British term - the US had "freeways" and the UK had "mototrways". The Afrikaans word "snelweg" is built up of two parts - "snel" = "fast" and "weg" = "way".
I would favour calling the combined article "limited access roads" and restricting it to roads that meet the OECD criteria of limited access - access being provided either by feeder roads or by on-off ramps. Of course some limited access roads would in addition have further restrictions, but would not have all the restrictions associated with motorways (sa per the OECD definition). Martinvl ( talk) 06:36, 24 June 2011 (UTC) reply

Absurd

I find the redirect of expressway here, absurd. Not all expressways are limited access roads. An expressway, as the name suggests should be a road that offers 'express speed'. -- Rsrikanth05 ( talk) 06:57, 9 July 2011 (UTC) reply

Exactly. A limited access road is just that, and defines most expressways, while some are even freeways. Most expressways differ from simply being "a high speed road": They often have less traffic lights (or none), little or no driveway access, and some sort of barrier (even just a raised curb) between opposing lanes. If you care to show an example of a road that is called an expressway but looks just like a normal city avenue (but with a higher speed limit), we could add it; the definition varies hugely around the world. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  τ ¢ 11:59, 9 July 2011 (UTC) reply
I agree with Rsrikanth05 that it would be absurd if Expressway redirected to Limited access road, but it doesn't, it redirects to a disambiguation page, because the word "expressway" means different things in different territories. I am not sure what the problem is. I hope Rsrikanth05 will explain further if there is still a problem. Nankai ( talk) 06:35, 10 July 2011 (UTC) reply
Expressway to Expressway (dab), which lists the types of possible meanings: Access controlled road, signal free road, express road, etc. -- Rsrikanth05 ( talk) 16:00, 30 July 2011 (UTC) reply

External links modified

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Road for motor vehicles

I have seen in this article that some images are the image from the so called Road for motor vehicles as defined by the CONVENTION ON ROAD SIGNS AND SIGNALS DONE AT VIENNA ON 8 NOVEMBER 1968 [ [7]].

Although this image appears many time in the Wikipedia article, the official name Road for motor vehicles is not given. Even if the existence of two class of roads in Europe Motorways and Road for motor vehicles is someway confusing, wikipedia should help to make it understandable, in order to give, for instance, similarities and dissimilarities between Limited-access road and Road for motor vehicles.

According to the CONVENTION ON ROAD SIGNS AND SIGNALS Those ROAD FOR MOTOR VEHICLES have a specific definition:

  • "road on which the traffic rules are the same as on a motorway"
  • "roads other than motorways which are reserved for motor vehicle traffic and do not serve properties bordering on the road."

The notion of express road as defined by several international treaties might also be added if it is not too much confusing (The concept of express road is described in fr:Voie rapide).

Because, standardization and naming of road may vary from country to country, one idea for organizing the article might be to take into account grouping of countries by Region, where useful:

  • Europe which is by several treaties bounded by the concept of Express road,
  • Countries to the CONVENTION ON ROAD SIGNS AND SIGNALS which are bounded by the notion of Road for motor vehicles (and/or countries of CONVENTION ON ROAD TRAFFIC),
  • Other countries for which those definition might be not applicable, and for which other (local/specific) definition might be applicable — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.193.104.227 ( talk) 16:12, 23 July 2017 (UTC) reply

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