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 | On 27 March 2021, it was proposed that this article be moved to Italian occupation of Anatolia. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: no consensus. It would be within reason to try again with the alternative name though. ( closed by non-admin page mover) ~ Aseleste ( t, e | c, l) 09:04, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
Italian occupation of Adalia →
Italian occupation of Anatolia – The territory Italy occupied does not correspond to either
Antalya (Adalia in Italian), the current
Antalya Province or the former Antalya Sanjak part of the
Konya Vilayet (
[1]). Thus, it is incorrect to limit this article's title to Antalya.
Super
Ψ
Dro 19:12, 27 March 2021 (UTC)—Relisting.
Ⓩⓟⓟⓘⓧ
Talk 19:26, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
![[1]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/59/Ottoman_Empire_Administrative_Divisions.png){kind=link}
- Strong oppose the proposed title is worse, clearly Italy did not occupy all of Anatolia. ( t · c) buidhe 04:35, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
- I don't think the title implies that Italy occupied all of Anatolia, but alternatively, we could use something like Italian-occupied Anatolia (on the basis of German-occupied Europe). Super Ψ Dro 09:44, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
@ Super Dromaeosaurus: do you have a map of the area occupied by the Italians during this period? From what I can tell it was part of Aidin Vilayet and part of Konya Vilayet, roughly following the shape of the modern Antalya Province. Onceinawhile ( talk) 16:31, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
- I think the current map in this article is the most accurate one we have showing the territory Italy occupied in Anatolia. If we're to follow it, Italy also occupied modern
Muğla Province, apart from Antalya Province. Also, to use the modern Antalya Province in this context is anachronistic, as the Italians retreated before the Republic of Turkey (and the Antalya Province I presume) were established.
Super
Ψ
Dro 19:08, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
-
Super Dromaeosaurus, thank you. I am not convinced by the map in our article - it seems to be a Treaty of Sevres map with someone drawing a line for the Italian-occupied area without sourcing.
Zero0000 recently produced a much better version of the ToS map (
File:SevresTreaty.png), so may have come across this question in his research for that map.
Onceinawhile (
talk) 21:28, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
- The map only shows annexed areas and not influence zones. Italy wasn't supposed to annex anything in Anatolia, but only have influence over a small part of it. I've been told by a knowledgable Turkish friend I have that Italy only occupied the land between
Muğla and
Antalya, with some land east of the latter but not as much as shown in the map here (which means the occupation zone wouldn't correspond to the Antalya Province in the east).
Super
Ψ
Dro 08:25, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
- Hi
Super Dromaeosaurus, interesting thanks. Note also the
Treaty of London (1915) which stated in Article 9:
Generally speaking, France, Great Britain and Russia recognise that... in the event of the total or partial partition of Turkey in Asia, [Italy] ought to obtain a just share of the Mediterranean region adjacent to the province of Adalia, where Italy has already acquired rights and interests which formed the subject of an Italo-British convention. The zone which shall eventually be allotted to Italy shall be delimited, at the proper time, due account being taken of the existing interests of France and Great Britain... If France, Great Britain and Russia occupy any territories in Turkey in Asia during the course of the war, the Mediterranean region bordering on the Province of Adalia within the limits indicated above shall be reserved to Italy, who shall be entitled to occupy it.
- Onceinawhile ( talk) 09:44, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
- Hi
Super Dromaeosaurus, interesting thanks. Note also the
Treaty of London (1915) which stated in Article 9:
- The map only shows annexed areas and not influence zones. Italy wasn't supposed to annex anything in Anatolia, but only have influence over a small part of it. I've been told by a knowledgable Turkish friend I have that Italy only occupied the land between
Muğla and
Antalya, with some land east of the latter but not as much as shown in the map here (which means the occupation zone wouldn't correspond to the Antalya Province in the east).
Super
Ψ
Dro 08:25, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
-
Super Dromaeosaurus, thank you. I am not convinced by the map in our article - it seems to be a Treaty of Sevres map with someone drawing a line for the Italian-occupied area without sourcing.
Zero0000 recently produced a much better version of the ToS map (
File:SevresTreaty.png), so may have come across this question in his research for that map.
Onceinawhile (
talk) 21:28, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
A couple of good sources:
- Seton-Watson, Christopher. Reviewed Work: L'Italia in Asia Minore by Marta Petricioli, Middle Eastern Studies, vol. 23, no. 1, 1987, pp. 128–130.
- McLean, D. " The Smyrna-Aidin Railway Settlement 1913-14." The Historical Journal 19, no. 2 (1976): 521-30
Onceinawhile ( talk) 09:54, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
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