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I would like to add a section discussing some criticisms of the three tier hierarchy but would like some feedback and supporting facts before I add to the article. Does anybody have any thoughts:
- The minimum GPA at more competitive CSU's is higher then the minimum GPA at some UC's. In some instances a CSU (Cal Poly, Long Beach, San Francisco, San Diego, Chico are more competitive then many UC schools. (Merced, Riverside, Santa Cruz, Davis) This would indicate in practice the 1/3 and 1/8 goal is not actually happening at all the respective institutions.
- Through articulation agreements many courses taught at CSU UC are considered equal. This is true particularly for lower division courses. If courses are considered equivalent how can one system be deemed to be superior.
- While true that a few of the top CSUs are more competitive than the lower ranked UCs, this is an exception more than a rule. Top UCs like Berk, LA, and SD are all much more selective than any CSU. Likewise the majority of CSUs are far less selective than any UC. It might be useful to mention that schools like Calpoly actually are more selective than say a UC Merced, but as we are discussing the system as a whole, it should be obvious that the UC system is deemed 'superior' to the CSU system in terms of many common indicators of college status, including research viablility, selectivity, financial endownment, faculty status, campus resources, subjective prestige, etc. One can make the argument that it is impossible to rank colleges to begin with, which is a fair argument in one for the college ranking article. However such an argument is not too useful in this article and unless one wants to claim that South Dekota State College is equal to Harvard, there wouldn't be a point in pushing that point. By most standards, and by the original intention of the framers, the UC system is 'deemed superior' to the CSU system.
He clearly wants to discuss higher education pre-1964 in South DAkota. The irony. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.98.4.11 ( talk) 14:18, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
Why should the UC system be the exclusive California higher education system to grant doctorate degrees? Why must there be a joint doctorate program when the majority of a student’s education is done at CSU and not the UC.
The 2002 Master Plan for Education recommendations, Recommendation #36, recommends allowing CSU's to increase the amount of research they do. Why should CSU's be a "stepchild" to the UC?
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SAUNDERS 03:44, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
I don't understand why there are questions of fairness. The community college system, CSU system, and UC system all work together as per the master plan. The CSU's goals are to educate the majority/brunt of the educated workforce and to spend their dollars on that endeavour. The UC system is there to engage in high end research and educate the academic elites. Letting CSUs replicate more and more functions that the UC system has always taken would cause the CSU to lose their focus. Is it fair that a CSU student or professor has very limited access to the research that their UC equivalents have? Yes, because the professor and student chose to attend / teach at a CSU rather than an UC. And the obvious comeback is that their profiles did not qualify them at a UC (or other top tier institution), but that's just how things are.
Fact is, the people that go to CSUs are just as great and all but their academic profiles are, typically, less impressive than their UC equivalents. The CSU system serves their purpose well, which is NOT to compete with the UC system, but to educate the majority of California's work force. Students go to CSUs to learn practical skills, and typically do not go to engage in research or have aspirations of a doctorate down the line. Actually doing some research into graduate class makeup at the top 15 engineering/CS schools, I've found that very few graduate students were from CSU, actually I can't rememeber any.
Now of course issuing doctorates for some degrees (such as teaching, which the CSU system is huge) is all and good, but there is a slippery slope when you start allowing the CSU to deviate from it's original intentions, which was to be a first class educational system as opposed to a top tier research institution. There will be a natural tendency to try to move up the academic food chain, since the CSU system is no doubt populated with ambitious and good people, so it's important that any changes to the way the system is examined closely to see how it will impact the overall education of the many many CSU students.
To sum it up, with education dollars in SUCH short supply, it could be wasteful to start allowing CSU schools to implement research programs, because if that money comes from the CSU school itself, then that's money not being spent on its core (and really, its only one) purpose of educating the students, and if it comes from the dwindling supply of state funds, that's research money that could be better spent conducting research at a UC (who alraedy has the research infrastructure, faculty who are well accustomed to doing cutting edge research, and students who have more of an interest in it). The master plan works because limited resources are funneled to their best uses, and it is a fair one too given the resource limitations we have.
Perhaps some of these points might be more relevant to the respective articles on the UC and CSU systems. The Master Plan is a part of ongoing State policy regarding higher education. The points about fairness or prestige are related to a particular university's position, so maybe they should go in the university's specific article. glasperlenspiel 19:11, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Gentgeen, your Start-Class rating infers "it is still weak in many areas, and may lack a key element". Is there anything specific that would be a good step toward improvement, or was that just a subjective impression? – RandallJones 00:18, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Who keeps on adding comments about the CSU system being repressed? It's inflammatory and completely unsubstantiated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.128.18.71 ( talk) 06:49, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
No citation, but there are a lot of claims which are probably not consensus. But I am not informed about this topic. -- Chricho ∀ ( talk) 17:52, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
The word "California" should not be in the title under Wikipedia's "common name" article title guidelines. It's also unnecessary for disambiguation. -- Coolcaesar ( talk) 14:17, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
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